R+L=J v.120

[BearQueen87]

It is only one of the tips of the massive iceberg floating below :cool4:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children— lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

Note that the Crab King and the Old Man of the River fights an eternal war for dominion, like Ice and Fire.

“Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.”

“Yesterday you said you loved them.”

“Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”

Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”

“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

“Because they’re different,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

Lightbringer is a song?

Nice catches all around. The idea of a song that brings back the day, or recreates a balance, reminds me of The Silmarillion by Tolkien and the first section that explains how Eru and his Ainur brought the world and everything into being--through a harmony of song (except for Malkor who was a douche)

[Ser Creighton]

Very interesting, Love and Hate, Marillion almost raping Sansa but stopped by a third part.

What's the significance to R+L=J? What is the implication? I have an idea because I tend to talk about it all the time. You have unity of opposition in the love and hate quote. But how is the near Rape of Sansa by a Harpist relatable, what color was her rose?

“As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.”

How does this quote relate to R+L=J the Sansa quote, and the Reeds speech? You look at only one aspect of a story and you are missing the story. Why do the parallels repeat? Is Martin hammering home the same clue over and over? Why is 3 significant? Remember "to go forward you must go back." Final clue who does Dany see herself as? Literally sees herself as someone? 1 and 3.

[Mithras]

The quote anchors into R+L=J as the Song has a certain meaning here...

ASoS 68 Sansa VI

And that reminds me of another Song of the same Stark maiden, of the so called un-kiss, where Sandor asks for a song from Sansa,

• and they do not kiss.
• and he gets the song.

This is it. Some people think all Sandor got was the song. And all Sansa got was his bloody cloak.

Fancy to reread it?

ACoK 62 Sansa VII towards the end of the chapter

This quote might help clarify:

ACoK 65 Sansa VIII

But then the memory changes...

ASoS 16 Sansa II

This is quite a strange one and does not quite meet the meaning of the song in the first quote.

Well, I see many failed attempts to forge/compose the Lightbringer in the series. This one is only one of them. Sandor and Sansa were not the right people. Sandor lacks the fire element. :)

[IceFire125]

Nice catches all around. The idea of a song that brings back the day, or recreates a balance, reminds me of The Silmarillion by Tolkien and the first section that explains how Eru and his Ainur brought the world and everything into being--through a harmony of song (except for Malkor who was a douche)

You're talking as if Tolkien was a big influence on GRRM, c'mon now, that's ridiculous. ^_^

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/#entry6288980

[Mithras]

Very interesting, Love and Hate, Marillion almost raping Sansa but stopped by a third part.

Sansa didnot love Marillion and he tried to rape her. There was no love, only hate. That is why it is another failed attempt to forge/compose the Lightbringer :)

[Mithras]

If the Lightbringer is a sword/song/person, then who is Aemon Steelsong, whose story is like a replica of R+L=J :P

[Jon Weirgaryen]

NissaNissa?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If the Lightbringer is a sword/song/person, then who is Aemon Steelsong, whose story is like a replica of R+L=J :P

He was born in battle, just like probably Jon did.

[BearQueen87]

You're talking as if Tolkien was a big influence on GRRM, c'mon now, that's ridiculous. ^_^

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/#entry6288980

HAHAHAAH

Sansa didnot love Marillion and he tried to rape her. There was no love, only hate. That is why it is another failed attempt to forge/compose the Lightbringer :)

I think you should post these quotes in that Lightbringer thread. They're really nice catches, Mithras.

[sj4iy]

It is only one of the tips of the massive iceberg floating below :cool4:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children— lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

Note that the Crab King and the Old Man of the River fights an eternal war for dominion, like Ice and Fire.

“Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.”

“Yesterday you said you loved them.”

“Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”

Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”

“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

“Because they’re different,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

Lightbringer is a song?

Ooh, I like that one a lot. It definitely seems to be foreshadowing a marriage between ice and fire.

[Ser Creighton]

Sansa didnot love Marillion and he tried to rape her. There was no love, only hate. That is why it is another failed attempt to forge/compose the Lightbringer :)

There you go, what color was the rose? It was Red, the opposite of blue in the series. Never forget the inverse of symbolism on repetitive parallels. Martin leaves the clues for it.

Now the quote from Dany the dragons are making music at there birth Dany is in the role of Rhaegar, that's who she saw herself as. What is another name for a Dragon?

[Mithras]

Dick still refused to believe that Brienne had never heard of Ser Clarence Crabb and his exploits.

“Why would I lie?” she asked him. “Every place has its local heroes. Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight.”

I think this idea (that every place having its local heroes) is further strengthened by TWOIAF. We hear lots of versions of AA all around Planetos. I think the LH was the original hero and all the other heroes were created much later based on the myth of the LH. There is a twisted irony here that since the LH goes anonymous, his myth was not copyrighted and other heroes stole from him. Don’t you think it is very Georgian that the most important hero is not remembered by his name but copycats from all around the world are very famous?

I believe Ser Clarence Crabb and Ser Galladon carry some elements from the LH. In TWOIAF, Ser Artys Arryn (the Winged Knight, not the historical Falcon Knight) also fits this scheme. His exploits (like marrying a female CotF who died while giving birth to a special kid) were mainly inspired by the LH myth.

Ser Gallawho of What?” He snorted. “Never heard o’ him. Why was he so bloody perfect?”

“Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.”

The Maiden fell in love with a warrior (Ser Galladon) and gave him a sword. This sounds like conceiving a special child.

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall.

I should give this one to Schemendrick who explained this scene perfectly. As a summary, the Maiden and the Warrior conceived a child; the Maiden became the Mother who shuddered, something which Mel did while giving birth to the shadow baby and later it happened again in her POV after she saw Bloodraven in the fires. The fLightbringer of Stannis was thrust to the Mother’s heart, which is a reenactment of Nissa Nissa’s sacrifice according to the myth. The Father was first to fall which is what happened to Rhaegar. The forging of fLightbringer was yet another failed attempt (and one of the most misguided ones).

Crabb thought that was hilarious. “The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What’s the point o’ having some magic sword if you don’t bloody well use it?”

“Honor,” she said. “The point is honor.”

That only made him laugh the louder. “Ser Clarence Crabb would have wiped his hairy arse with your Perfect Knight, m’lady. If they’d ever have met, there’d be one more bloody head sitting on the shelf at the Whispers, you ask me. ‘I should have used the magic sword,’ it’d be saying to all the other heads. ‘I should have used the bloody sword.’”

There is a beautiful double entendre here. Note that Nimble Dick called the Just Maid (the child of the love between the Warrior and the Maiden) a bloody sword. Yes it is a curse but at the same time if we consider sword as a baby, it describes a newborn baby covered in blood.

Oh, and do you remember how Rhaegar read something important and said this?

‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’

Oh, and do you remember the AAR prophecy?

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

Stannis’ sword = burned sword (false Lightringer)

Jon = burning sword (true Lightringer)

A warrior (Gerold, Arthur and Oswell) drew from the fire (Lyanna who was burning with fever) a burning sword (Jon).

The three KG acting as the warriors who were present in the birth of Jon might be a clue for my theory that there will be three “warriors” who will “clasp” Jon and become the reincarnations of AA.

These are Bran, Sam and Davos. Note the similarity that all of them are terribly unfit to be warriors in a traditional sense. Bran is a crippled little boy. Sam is fat and craven. Davos is an old smuggler who used to avoid fights, not seek them. Yet during the story we see how they developed as characters and found themselves in fights they did never want to be part of.

Final Words

Brienne IV of Feast is where Nimble Dick talks about the squishers and Ser Clarence Crabb. I think George made heavy references to the Others, the LN, Jon, the Battle for Dawn, AAR etc. in addition to the Brienne-Jaime ship in this chapter. In the first sentence of the chapter, the pine forest is described as a hostile being causing uneasy feeling which is very similar to the Haunted Forest.

East of Maidenpool the hills rose wild, and the pines closed in about them like a host of silent grey-green soldiers.

Here is another passage from that chapter:

The wood was too damp to light, no matter how many sparks Brienne struck off her flint and steel. The kindling sent up some smoke, but that was all. Disgusted, she settled down with her back to a rock, pulled her cloak over herself, and resigned herself to a cold, wet night. Dreaming of a hot meal, she gnawed on a strip of hard salt beef whilst Nimble Dick talked about the time Ser Clarence Crabb had fought the squisher king.

Lol, with references to the salt and smoke, we have Ser Clarence, a hero inspired by the LH, fought the squisher king.

[Mithras]

Arya is the embodiment of Lyanna's image, but the inner of Lyanna, you could argue, is Sansa..

Right now, Sansa feels just like Lyanna. She is betrothed to a young knight who grew in the Vale but she does not want this marriage. We should also note that this young knight already sired a bastard like Robert did back in the day (Mya Stone) and he seems like the womanizer Robert was.

I am deadly sure that Sansa will run away from the Vale at the first opportunity.

[Ygrain]

Right now, Sansa feels just like Lyanna. She is betrothed to a young knight who grew in the Vale but she does not want this marriage. We should also note that this young knight already sired a bastard like Robert did back in the day (Mya Stone) and he seems like the womanizer Robert was.

I am deadly sure that Sansa will run away from the Vale at the first opportunity.

Yeah, the Harry-Robert parallel is pretty straightforward.

Also, there happen to be three knights around who have some intentions to make away with Sansa, though I doubt they are quite as honourable as the former trio :-)

Any ideas how Myranda might fit into the picture?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I am deadly sure that Sansa will run away from the Vale at the first opportunity.

Who's gonna steal her?

[Mithras]

Yeah, the Harry-Robert parallel is pretty straightforward.

Also, there happen to be three knights around who have some intentions to make away with Sansa, though I doubt they are quite as honourable as the former trio :-)

Any ideas how Myranda might fit into the picture?

Who's gonna steal her?

Yeah, there will be no Rhaegar for Sansa because it is a broken parallel. I think Shadrich will tell her that he fought for Stannis at Blackwater and he could take her to him in the North where he will be with Rickon in Winterfell. But of course that will not gonna happen. He will sell her to Cersei.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Dick still refused to believe that Brienne had never heard of Ser Clarence Crabb and his exploits.

Like Jojen would not believe Bran had never heard of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

I must say liked the musing from wich I only quoted the first line very much, @Mithras Stoneborn, and greatly enjoy what you have been producing here lately.

[Ser Creighton]

Who's gonna steal her?

You know that is a good Question. But the Parallel does not need to continue all the time and they don't always. Generally they sort of create a scene. But logically speaking, it should be Loras, he fills in the tourney moment rather well. Though it seems an outside chance at best. Next up I note that Sansa like Ned is in the Vale with??? Mya Stone, Roberts daughter and they are friends. So is there going to be a parallel where Cersei finds out and calls for her head. Or someone does. The inverse though would suggest she weds Harry.

Is Marillion dead? Kidnaps her for revenge and plans to take her. Did he die and is he really blind?

Will sweet Robin accidentally out her?

Lots of interesting Sansa stuff going on, maybe she gets more than 3 chapters, this time, that would be nice. I mean if she is even in winds that would be a huge improvement.

Oh and I got it, she runs off with her new Dire Wolf Greywind her brother coming for her at last. Nobody says a damn thing either, that wolf is alive damn it and he is looking for Sansa, got it!

[IceFire125]

You know that is a good Question. But the Parallel does not need to continue all the time and they don't always. Generally they sort of create a scene. But logically speaking, it should be Loras, he fills in the tourney moment rather well. Though it seems an outside chance at best. Next up I note that Sansa like Ned is in the Vale with??? Mya Stone, Roberts daughter and they are friends. So is there going to be a parallel where Cersei finds out and calls for her head. Or someone does. The inverse though would suggest she weds Harry.

I agree, that once we accept RLJ, especially legitimate J, there would be tendencies to push for parallel to be more than it should be, a general image of a scene or idea.

However, I also believe if scenes were made almost or close to similar, it's for a purpose and to foreshadow back in time to something of similar that have happened and in the future,of what will happen.

I would venture this as a big clue to how we might see Jon be accepted as King...

Only a handful of lords had been present for Aegon’s first coronation at the mouth of the Blackwater, but hundreds were on hand to witness his second, and tens of thousands cheered him afterward...

Amongst those at Aegon’s second coronation were the maesters and archmaesters of the Citadel. Perhaps for that reason, it was this coronation, rather than the Aegonfort crowning or the day of Aegon’s Landing, that became fixed as the start of Aegon’s reign...

Jon will be recognized first as King by a few lords (of the North?) and then at a second time, by hundreds of them (the rest of Westeros).

[markg171]

We all just going to ignore that Rhaegar said Aegon was the song of ice and fire? This is despite the fact that he's of fire and sun descent?

So the only information we have on the song of ice and fire, is that it has nothing to do with who your parents are. So how are any of you coming to these conclusions?