Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Hrafntýr]

I haven't reread that part of S & G yet! I don't remember the boobs! I remember Sam's shy awkwardness since this was his first time and how sweet it was. And fat pink mast? Well, GRRM busted some tropes there! LOL!

Rum and breast milk, apparently a delicious combination!

Edit: If we're talking unreliable narrators, maybe it wasn't that fat.

[Annara Snow]

I'm doing a reread, and I noticed that in Sansa's last chapter in AGoT, she says that it was Janos Slynt who threw down her father at his execution. but it wasn't him. He just gave the order. I just thought it was another interesting detail that Sansa got wrong.

Where are you getting that from? Who says that it wasn't Janos Slynt who threw Ned down? What is the source of that information?

This is the only real time account of Ned's execution - in Arya's POV:

A long line of gold-cloaked spearmen held back the crowd, commanded by a stout man in elaborate armor, all black lacquer and gold filigree. His cloak had the metallic shimmer of true cloth-of-gold.

A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey… no, King Joffrey… stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. “My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father.” He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!”

The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king’s cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King’s Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.

Arya wriggled between Baelor’s feet and threw herself into the crowd, drawing Needle. She landed on a man in a butcher’s apron, knocking him to the ground. Immediately someone slammed into her back and she almost went down herself. Bodies closed in around her, stumbling and pushing, trampling on the poor butcher. Arya slashed at them with Needle.

High atop the pulpit, Ser Ilyn Payne gestured and the knight in black-and-gold gave a command. The gold cloaks flung Lord Eddard to the marble, with his head and chest out over the edge.

And at this point, Yoren grabs Arya and doesn't allow her to see anything more.

That's it. Arya just saw that the Gold Clocks threw him down. She didn't note whether their commander, whose name she didn't know, was one of those who threw him down. Why would she? They're all the same to her. But there's absolutely nothing to suggest that Janos Slynt did not throw Ned down.

Accounts by people present, after the fact:

Sansa:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”

(Sansa VI, AGOT)

I hope he falls and shames himself, she thought bitterly. I hope Ser Balon kills him. When Joffrey proclaimed her father’s death, it had been Janos Slynt who seized Lord Eddard’s severed head by the hair and raised it on high for king and crowd to behold, while Sansa wept and screamed.

(Sansa I, ACOK)

Cersei, in Tyrion's POV:

The queen grimaced. “He was instructed to pardon Stark, to allow him to take the black. The man would have been out of our way forever, and we might have made peace with that son of his, but Joff took it upon himself to give the mob a better show. What was I to do? He called for Lord Eddard’s head in front of half the city. And Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn went ahead blithely and shortened the man without a word from me!” Her hand tightened into a fist. “The High Septon claims we profaned Baelor’s Sept with blood, after lying to him about our intent.”

Janos Slynt himself, in Tyrion's POV:

“One would think,” Tyrion said, “but life does take queer turns. Consider Eddard Stark, my lord. I don’t suppose he ever imagined his life would end on the steps of Baelor’s Sept.”

“There were damn few as did,” Lord Janos allowed, chuckling.

Tyrion chuckled too. “A pity I wasn’t here to see it. They say even Varys was surprised.”

Lord Janos laughed so hard his gut shook. “The Spider,” he said. “Knows everything, they say. Well, he didn’t know that.”

“How could he?” Tyrion put the first hint of a chill in his tone. “He had helped persuade my sister that Stark should be pardoned, on the condition that he take the black.”

“Eh?” Janos Slynt blinked vaguely at Tyrion.

“My sister Cersei,” Tyrion repeated, a shade more strongly, in case the fool had some doubt who he meant. “The Queen Regent.”

“Yes.” Slynt took a swallow. “As to that, well... the king commanded it, m’lord. The king himself.”

“The king is thirteen,” Tyrion reminded him.

“Still. He is the king.” Slynt’s jowls quivered when he frowned. “The Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.”

Varys, in Tyrion's POV:

Sighing, Tyrion started to reach for the wine again, then remembered Lord Janos and pushed the flagon away. “It does seem my sister was telling the truth about Stark’s death. We have my nephew to thank for that madness.”

“King Joffrey gave the command. Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne carried it out, swiftly, without hesitation...”

“... almost as if they had expected it. Yes, we have been over this ground before, without profit. A folly.”

“With the City Watch in hand, my lord, you are well placed to see to it that His Grace commits no further... follies? To be sure, there is still the queen’s household guard to consider...”

So, that's the info we have. One account after the fact (Sansa) that says Janos Slynt threw Ned down and later held his head for the crowd to see, and four other accounts (one real time, three after the fact) that don't contradict that.

So, where are you getting the idea that Sansa was wrong?

Seems to me like you're just making stuff up because you're in love with the idea of Sansa being an "unrealiable narrator" and misremembering all sorts of things.

Sansa is no more unrealiable than any other narrator in ASOAIF. The UnKiss is one very specific, psychologically very interesting and meaningful case. That doesn't mean that she misremembers everything. Other characters also remember things wrong.

For instance, Arya both misremembers insignificant details (the name of Joffrey's sword) and important things, such as the fact that Sansa did not support Joffrey's version of the story at the trial, but claimed not to remember what happened. In ASOS, when Sandor is on trial, he claims that Sansa confirmed Joffrey's account that Mycah had attacked Joffrey, which was not true (but Sandor was not actually at the trial - he was off on Cersei's order looking for Arya and Mycah, and killed Mycah before he even came back to hear what happened at the trial) but he may have been told so by Joffrey and Cersei after the trial, or he may have been lying or misremembering himself (even if he was told so, it hardly mattered since Mycah had already been dead, it's not like either him or Cersei had been waiting for Sansa to confirm or not confirm Joffrey's story); and Arya, who was actually there, reacts by screaming that Sansa was a liar, forgetting that Sansa did not actually say that at the trial - maybe because Arya was so angry that Sansa claimed not to remember, that she considered it the same as supporting Joffrey.

[Annara Snow]

I think there are some examples of her being an unreliable narrator, but they're mostly about how her trying to talk herself into something. Like, in aSoS she thinks she's not a silly little girl anymore (as opposed to Margaery's cousins), but she still fantasizes about her marriage to Willas Tyrell. And then in aFfC she convinces herself that a lie is not so bad if it's for a good reason (or something along those lines), even though she knows all the evil shit LF has done

As to the unkiss, I think that's a very jarring and out of the blue moment that doesn't really feel organic and stands out from the rest of the narrative

Translation:

"I really dislike SanSan, so I'm very determined to ignore all textual indications of it in her narrative. Especially since it is an obstacle to my preferred ship, Sansa/fAegon, which doesn't actually have any textual support for it whatsoever and has nothing to do with Sansa's actual narrative."

[Annara Snow]

Sure did. And she shuddered.

Three guys pawed her breasts uninvited and unwanted:

Littlefinger, just before she lied to him:

Tyrion:

Marillion:

Arya as Sansa (that was a parallel to the wedding night scene, almost line for line):

Raff does the same thing:

Joffrey groped her breast, too, in the sept, while he was giving her away at her wedding.

As father of the realm, Joffrey took the place of Lord Eddard Stark. Sansa stood stiff as a lance as his hands came over her shoulders to fumble with the clasp of her cloak. One of them brushed her breast and lingered to give it a little squeeze. Then the clasp opened, and Joff swept her maiden’s cloak away with a kingly flourish and a grin.

[Annara Snow]

All hell would break loose if Sansa misremembers Petyr kissing her as her kissing Petyr.

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[ummester]

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Oh come on, surely you Aunt can choose to remain your Aunt, in this day and age, even with her testicles :D It's not about what you are, it's about what you want to be, now.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Sansa is no more unrealiable than any other narrator in ASOAIF. The UnKiss is one very specific, psychologically very interesting and meaningful case. That doesn't mean that she misremembers everything. Other characters also remember things wrong.

For instance, Arya both misremembers insignificant details (the name of Joffrey's sword) and important things, such as the fact that Sansa did not support Joffrey's version of the story at the trial, but claimed not to remember what happened. In ASOS, when Sandor is on trial, he claims that Sansa confirmed Joffrey's account that Mycah had attacked Joffrey, which was not true (but Sandor was not actually at the trial - he was off on Cersei's order looking for Arya and Mycah, and killed Mycah before he even came back to hear what happened at the trial) but he may have been told so by Joffrey and Cersei after the trial, or he may have been lying or misremembering himself (even if he was told so, it hardly mattered since Mycah had already been dead, it's not like either him or Cersei had been waiting for Sansa to confirm or not confirm Joffrey's story); and Arya, who was actually there, reacts by screaming that Sansa was a liar, forgetting that Sansa did not actually say that at the trial - maybe because Arya was so angry that Sansa claimed not to remember, that she considered it the same as supporting Joffrey.

Sansa does seem to genuinely believe Joffrey's version of events, that Mycah attacked Joffrey.

“It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

But when we read Sansa's first chapter we know it didn't happen like that, and so should Sansa.

[Annara Snow]

I understand that you appreciate the story between Sansa and Sandor and, in some ways, it is beautiful. But you do not know how their story will progress more than anybody else here. Most of your parellels are a stretch - for example, the Jeyne Eyre parallel and the Beauty and the Beast parallel you mention earlier.

Really? The Beauty and Beast parallel is a "stretch"? More like "blatantly obvious", even if weren't written by the same guy who adores Jean Cocteau's La Belle et La Bete, wrote for the 80s TV series The Beauty and the Beast, said that the male lead from that show (Ron Perlman, who played the Vincent, the romantic Beast) was who he imagined as Sandor, and admitted that Jaime/Brienne was written as gender-swapped Beauty and the Beast story?

And I have no clue how someone would feel that Tyrion was trying to rape Sansa. I truly don't.

Um, because Tyrion made it clear that he was intending to have sex with Sansa right until the end when he finally changed his mind, even though he knew she had been forced to marry him and really didn't want that?

[Le Cygne]

Thank you for the Joffrey quote, I will add that.

[Karmarni]

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

New Fake Daddy Petyr has such love, respect and kind regard for his bastard daughter. They're such the power badass couple that we have to ignore that he is grooming her and she never wanted him, nor Tyrion. Let the games begin. They'll pick off each and every competitor on their way to ruling Westeros.

Of course this way does effectively take Sansa and her desires all the way down in the muck. But who cares about Sansa and what she wants? She's just a tool who will give Tyrion and/or Littlefinger everything they ever wanted.

:snigger:

Highly doubt all that.

[Le Cygne]

You forgot Aegon. They both dye their hair. *

This means good things for Varys. Arya and Varys both shave their heads. Aryarys.

* Sansa should get first dibs on Daario, should he become free. Just sayin. Sanario.

[LongRider]

You forgot Aegon. They both dye their hair and like candy.

This means good things for Varys. Arya and Varys both shave their heads. Aryarys.

Plus their parents are both deceased and some sibs as well.

[Le Cygne]

Sam was making a joke. (I love Sam, what can I say.)

[OldGimletEye]

Sansa refused Sandor, and then Sandor became more violent. If Sandor's plan for Sansa was the same as his plan for Arya then he was hoping to sell her back to her family.

Sandor throws Sansa on the bed and puts a knife to her throat and thinks she owes him a "song"

“Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing little bird. Sing for your little life.”

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, please don’t. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered.

Sansa was not a willing participant when the Hound forced her on the bed and threatened her with a knife, so yeah, it does seem like Sandor was telling the truth when he said he wanted to rape her bloody.

“Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song. She never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf.”

Don't beat yourself up about it. It's a discussion and you're entitled to your own opinion surrounding the text. I did like your analysis of Westerosi currency.

So let me get this straight; apparently, according to you, Sandor intended to both rape Sansa and to ransom her as well. Upon delivering Sansa to Robb, in order to collect his ransom, Sandor must have planned to say to Robb, "I raped your sister, and I didn't think you'd mine, but you can knock a little bit off of my ransom, since I decided to rape her."

It seems that the idea of Sandor intending to rape Sansa would be mutually exclusive of the idea of Sandor intending to ransom her. There is a term for holding two mutually exclusive and contradictory notions in one's head. The term is "Double Think". Now, if Sandor intended to both rape and ransom Sansa, then he would have engaged in double think. But, I have the feeling that Sandor isn't the one engaging in double think here.

Generally, there are two pieces of evidence offered up by those who argue that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. The first piece of evidence is that Sandor committed an assault upon Sansa during The Battle of The Blackwater. The second piece of evidence, offered up, by those who think that Sandor intended to rape Sansa are particular statements made by Sandor, concerning Sansa, while he was dying.

The fact that Sandor assaulted Sansa hardly proves that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. Assaults and rapes are not the same act. They are distinguishable acts. At no point during Sandor's assault upon Sansa did Sandor's physical actions indicate that he contemplated a rape.

The statements made by Sandor about Sansa, when he was dying, are hardly a smoking gun that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa. A casual reading of those statements might make some infer that Sandor did intend to rape Sansa. However, that inference is highly suspect, particularly when those statements are paired with events that occurred before those statements were made and when the logical structure, of at least one of those statements, is scrutinized closely.

If Sandor formed an intent to rape Sansa, then it would be nice if you or somebody else could give a plausible explanation when this said intent was formed. It would seem that the logical choices would be either before he entered Sansa's room on the night of The Battle of The Blackwater or after Sandor grabbed Sansa's arm and threw her down on the bed.

With regard to the first possibility, it doesn't seem likely that Sandor had formed any intent to commit a rape when he entered Sansa's room. If he had, then he certainly had an odd way of carrying out said intent. Normally, I would think, a would be rapist would not go into the intended victims room, with an intention to rape, but then first offer the intended victim their protection or sit there and talk to the intended rape victim about their fear of fire or how they were going to get out of KL. Accordingly, I find it unlikely that Sandor ever formed any intent to rape before he entered Sansa's room or before he began to speak to her.

This, of course, would leave open the possibility that Sandor formed said intent sometime after speaking to Sansa. But, looking at the chain of events, I think this conclusion would be highly dubious. Sandor's anger at Sansa seems to have been because he thought she wouldn't look at his face. This, I think, occurred right after Sansa closed her eyes because she thought the Hound was going to kiss her. The text clearly establishes that Sandor has some big issues over his face. Sandor makes several comments about his face to Sansa. When Sandor talks to Arya, he mentions to Arya the fact she looks him the face.

After yanking Sansa's arm and throwing her on the bed, Sandor at no point put his hands on any of Sansa's private parts. He never tried to slip his hand underneath her dress. In short, Sandor's physical actions that night gave no indication that Sandor had meant to rape Sansa.

When Sandor lay dying, his statements about Sansa certainly do not put Sandor in a great light. And, it's a bit understandable how a very casual reading of those statements might lead one to conclude that Sandor did form an intent to rape Sansa. However, those statements, I believe, need to be parsed very carefully and the circumstances surrounding those statements need to be considered very carefully.

Before making his dying statements, Sandor learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion at the Inn at the Cross Roads. He was clearly upset about hearing that news. His emotional distress about hearing Tyrion's marriage to Sansa needs to considered when trying to interpret what is perhaps Sandor's most notorious statement regarding Sansa. That statement was:

I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf.”

Given that Sandor was clearly upset about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, I think it would be prudent to consider the above statement in that light. Also, taking the sentence literally is problematic. Did Sandor really intend to rip Sansa's heart out? Probably not. Also, notice in that statement that Sandor says "before leaving her for the dwarf". The upshot of this is that I think Sandor was speaking figuratively and not literally.

Reading Sandor's statements together, I think he was regretting his failures with regard to Sansa. I think a pretty clear indication of this is when he speaks of being in his white cloak while he "let them beat her".

The bottom line is this: It's difficult to infer that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa from the statements he made when he was dying. Also, during The Battle of The Blackwater, Sandor took no action to indicate that he ever contemplated raping Sansa. Finally, there is a real question here of when Sandor would have formed such an intent to rape Sansa.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Kinda jumping in from several pages ago cuz im lazy and i just had this really disturbing thought...

And let's look at the rest of the story, because that matters, too:

Sandor (makes her sing a song) - she caresses his face, puts on his cloak, pretends they kissed, dreams of him in bed with her, places him in the marriage bed, is bitter that he left her, and on and on and on...

Other men:

Meryn (beat her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said
Joffrey (torments her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said
Slynt (remembers what he did) - later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice)
Kingsguard (beat her) - later, she notes that Sandor never beat her; later, she remembers what Sandor said
Rapists (attack her) - later, she remembers Sandor rescued her (repeatedly)
Ilyn (after Cersei scares her about rape) - she wishes Sandor was there to protect her instead
Tyrion (orders her to strip, gropes her breast) - later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice), wonders where he is; later, she dreams of Sandor in bed with her instead
Marillion (gropes her breast, too) - she imagines Sandor is there to rescue her instead (once again, hears his voice)
Littlefinger (forces kisses, also touches her breast) - later, she pretends to kiss Sandor instead

She trusts Sandor, and that's been going on since the story began. Maybe they both just want a happy memory of each other. Her song, his kiss. Maybe it's as simple as that.

I wonder if one part of the plot point regarding Sansa and the Un-kiss, is that she keeps placing Sandor in these traumatic situations as a way to cope. What if...*gulp* it goes further with Littlefinger and she forces herself to imagine Sandor?

:crying:

[Le Cygne]

Kinda jumping in from several pages ago cuz im lazy and i just had this really disturbing thought...

I wonder if one part of the plot point regarding Sansa and the Un-kiss, is that she keeps placing Sandor in these traumatic situations as a way to cope. What if...*gulp* it goes further with Littlefinger and she forces herself to imagine Sandor?

:crying:

Don't cry, or at least not yet. I think someone is going to walk in on them before it goes too far. I'm hoping it's Sweetrobin, and he's going to help Sansa kill him. Foreshadowing from the snow castle scene, when they both are holding half of the doll (=Littlefinger) and the blood is pouring out.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Don't cry, or at least not yet. I think someone is going to walk in on them before it goes too far. I'm hoping it's Sweetrobin, and he's going to help Sansa kill him. Foreshadowing from the snow castle scene, when they both are holding half of the doll (=Littlefinger) and the blood is pouring out.

Its just ever since Sophie Turner talked about filming "a traumatic scene", my mind is going in really dark places and im like "SANSA MY BABY!" Cuz i think that scene is the "controversial" moment GRRM mentioned would happen in tWOW.

Lets be optimistic. Lets go with your theory!

[Annara Snow]

So let me get this straight; apparently, according to you, Sandor intended to both rape Sansa and to ransom her as well. Upon delivering Sansa to Robb, in order to collect his ransom, Sandor must have planned to say to Robb, "I raped your sister, and I didn't think you'd mine, but you can knock a little bit off of my ransom, since I decided to rape her."

It seems that the idea of Sandor intending to rape Sansa would be mutually exclusive of the idea of Sandor intending to ransom her. There is a term for holding two mutually exclusive and contradictory notions in one's head. The term is "Double Think". Now, if Sandor intended to both rape and ransom Sansa, then he would have engaged in double think. But, I have the feeling that Sandor isn't the one engaging in double think here.

Generally, there are two pieces of evidence offered up by those who argue that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. The first piece of evidence is that Sandor committed assault upon Sansa during The Battle of The Blackwater. The second piece of evidence, offered up, by those who think that Sandor intended to rape Sansa are particular statements made by Sandor, concerning Sansa, while he was dying.

The fact that Sandor assaulted Sansa hardly proves that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. Assaults and rapes are not the same act. They are distinguishable acts. At no point during Sandor's assault upon Sansa did Sandor's physical actions indicate that he contemplated a rape.

The statements made by Sandor about Sansa, when he was dying, are hardly a smoking gun that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa. A casual reading of those statements might make some infer that Sandor did intend to rape Sansa. However, that inference is highly suspect, particularly when those statements are paired with events that occurred before those statements were made and when the logical structure, of at least one of those statements, is scrutinized closely.

If Sandor formed an intent to rape Sansa, then it would be nice if you or somebody else could give a plausible explanation when this said intent was formed. It would seem that the logical choices would be either before he entered Sansa's room on the night of The Battle of The Blackwater or after Sandor grabbed Sansa's arm and threw her down on the bed.

With regard to the first possibility, it doesn't seem likely that Sandor had formed any intent to commit a rape when he entered Sansa's room. If he had, then he certainly had an odd way of carrying out said intent. Normally, I would think, a would be rapist would not go into the intended victims room, with an intention to rape, but then first offer the intended victim their protection or sit there and talk to the intended rape victim about their fear of fire or how they were going to get out of KL. Accordingly, I find it unlikely that Sandor ever formed any intent to rape before he entered Sansa's room or before he began to speak to her.

This, of course, would leave open the possibility that Sandor formed said intent sometime after speaking to Sansa. But, looking at the chain of events, I think this conclusion would be highly dubious. Sandor's anger at Sansa seems to have been because he thought she wouldn't look at his face. This, I think, occurred right after Sansa closed her eyes because she thought the Hound was going to kiss her. The text clearly establishes that Sandor has some big issues over his face. Sandor makes several comments about his face to Sansa. When Sandor talks to Arya, he mentions to Arya the fact she looks him the face.

After yanking Sansa's arm and throwing her on the bed, Sandor at no point put his hands on any of Sansa's private parts. He never tried to slip his hand underneath her dress. In short, Sandor's physical actions that night gave no indication that Sandor had meant to rape Sansa.

When Sandor lay dying, his statements about Sansa certainly do not put Sandor in a great light. And, it's a bit understandable how a very casual reading of those statements might lead one to conclude that Sandor did form an attempt to rape Sansa. However, those statements, I believe, need to be parsed very carefully and the circumstances surrounding those statements need to be considered very carefully.

Before making his dying statements, Sandor learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion at the Inn at the Cross Roads. He was clearly upset about hearing that news. His emotional distress about hearing Tyrion's marriage to Sansa needs to considered when trying to interpret what is perhaps Sandor's most notorious statement regarding Sansa. That statement was:

Given that Sandor was clearly upset about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, I think it would be prudent to consider the above statement in that light. Also, taking the sentence literally is problematic. Did Sandor really intend to rip Sansa's heart out? Probably not. Also, notice in that statement that Sandor says "before leaving her for the dwarf". The upshot of this is that I think Sandor was speaking figuratively and not literally.

Reading Sandor's statements together, I think he was regretting his failures with regard to Sansa. I think a pretty clear indication of this is when speaks of being in his white cloak while he "let them beat her".

The bottom line is this: It's difficult to infer that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa from the statements he made when he was dying. Also, during The Battle of The Blackwater, Sandor took no action to indicate that he ever contemplated raping Sansa. Finally, there is a real question here of when Sandor would have formed such an intent to rape Sansa.

:agree: Great summary of the subject.

What I'm particularly annoyed with is that some people don't even say "I think that Sandor wanted to rape Sansa, because..." or "Maybe he wanted to rape her" and just state it as a fact, when it's anything but. Using "I should have fucked her bloody..." as evidence is particularly silly as it means taking only 1/3 of the sentence and taking it out of context. Nobody ever claims that he really wanted to rip her heart out, for some reason...

[Isobel Harper]

Really? The Beauty and Beast parallel is a "stretch"? More like "blatantly obvious", even if weren't written by the same guy who adores Jean Cocteau's La Belle et La Bete, wrote for the 80s TV series The Beauty and the Beast, said that the male lead from that show (Ron Perlman, who played the Vincent, the romantic Beast) was who he imagined as Sandor, and admitted that Jaime/Brienne was written as gender-swapped Beauty and the Beast story?

--I'm well aware that there's some sort of infatuation between the two, as are most people here. That is what (and only what) all of your quotes that you post prove. We can't remotely know if Sansa and Sandor will meet again. We can't know if Daenerys and Jorah will meet again. We can't know if Tyrion and Tysha will meet again. We don't know if Daenerys will ever find that lemon tree and the red door.

Um, because Tyrion made it clear that he was intending to have sex with Sansa right until the end when he finally changed his mind, even though he knew she had been forced to marry him and really didn't want that?

--If a man is sexually attracted to someone who isn't attracted back, it means he wants to rape her?

Do yourself a favor hun. Quit stating opinions as facts. Open your mind to what the opposing side has to say. Be open to the fact that your opinion could end up being false. Be open to the fact that many people will disagree with you. Stick to the topic, or start your own. This applies to all discussions, not just this one. People would be more willing to listen to you, and you might even be happier for it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snipped}

Yes, exactly. Thanks for saying so.

The thing that Sandor said to Arya absolutely must be looked at in its entirety. The most important part of that sentence is "before leaving her for the dwarf". He's saying that even if he had fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out, even that would have been a kinder fate for her than what he did, which is leave her behind to be married off to Tyrion. Sandor is the only one who understands what a violation of Sansa that was.

Also, he trying to piss Arya off enough to kill him.

Context, context, context. And complete quotes.