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Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator


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--If a man is sexually attracted to someone who isn't attracted back, it means he wants to rape her?

No. When a man says that he intends to have sex with someone and acts like he intends to have sex with someone who really, really doesn't want to have sex with him and has no way of saying "no", and he knows it - that means he wants to rape her.

Surely that's not such a difficult concept to understand? I would suggest everyone should keep that in mind: "If someone doesn't want to have sex with you and is no position to say no due to being a slave/prisoner/hostage/deprived of any rights to give consent due to the rules of your society/unconscious or barely conscious/otherwise unable to give consent, don't do it. Don't rape." Tyrion eventually got that and realized he couldn't go through with doing his "duty" to his dad by raping Sansa. It's a good thing to live by. (Sadly, he stopped living by it in Volantis.)

Do yourself a favor hun. Quit stating opinions as facts. Open your mind to what the opposing side has to say. Be open to the fact that your opinion could end up being false. Be open to the fact that many people will disagree with you. Stick to the topic, or start your own. This applies to all discussions, not just this one. People would be more willing to listen to you, and you might even be happier for it.

I'm sorry, but nope, what constitutes rape is not "my opinion". It's a fact. Do yourself a favor. Quit trying to deny that rape is rape. Your life will be better, people will be more willing to listen to you rather than be creeped out by you, and you might even be happier for it.

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Kinda jumping in from several pages ago cuz im lazy and i just had this really disturbing thought...

I wonder if one part of the plot point regarding Sansa and the Un-kiss, is that she keeps placing Sandor in these traumatic situations as a way to cope. What if...*gulp* it goes further with Littlefinger and she forces herself to imagine Sandor?

:crying:

I understand the UnKiss to be her way of coping as well. I'm really afraid the "controversial Sansa chapter" will somehow involve LF. Sansa is one of my favorite characters, and if LF ends up raping her. Just, ew. I really hope GRRM doesn't take it any further than it's already going...

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He's clearly writing a romance, the evidence is abundant. And he's invested a lot of time in this one, too, it began in the first book, and Sandor has been in nearly every one of Sansa's chapters since then.

It's perfectly normal to think romantically about someone you've fallen in love with, and it's obvious upon a close reading that he wants to work for Robb to find a way back to Sansa. He's as far gone on her as she is on him.

One can take every aspect of the story and paint it cynically, because one wants her paired with a different character, but that's fighting what the author is doing, and there's no real purpose to it. He's not going to stop telling this story.

I for one agree with everything you say. I've been hoping against hope that Sandor & Sansa find their way back to each other. Her finally a woman and him finally a man instead of a beast. :) :love: :love: :love:

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I for one agree with everything you say. I've been hoping against hope that Sandor & Sansa find their way back to each other. Her finally a woman and him finally a man instead of a beast. :) :love: :love: :love:

Thank you! What you've said in bold is Beauty and the Beast in a nutshell, nicely stated. And many agree about that, GRRM is telling a great story here. He is following Jean Cocteau's version, that's his favorite, and his is one of the best of these stories I've read. His take is very traditional, but at the same time, very sexy, too.

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So let me get this straight; apparently, according to you, Sandor intended to both rape Sansa and to ransom her as well. Upon delivering Sansa to Robb, in order to collect his ransom, Sandor must have planned to say to Robb, "I raped your sister, and I didn't think you'd mine, but you can knock a little bit off of my ransom, since I decided to rape her."

It seems that the idea of Sandor intending to rape Sansa would be mutually exclusive of the idea of Sandor intending to ransom her. There is a term for holding two mutually exclusive and contradictory notions in one's head. The term is "Double Think". Now, if Sandor intended to both rape and ransom Sansa, then he would have engaged in double think. But, I have the feeling that Sandor isn't the one engaging in double think here.

Generally, there are two pieces of evidence offered up by those who argue that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. The first piece of evidence is that Sandor committed an assault upon Sansa during The Battle of The Blackwater. The second piece of evidence, offered up, by those who think that Sandor intended to rape Sansa are particular statements made by Sandor, concerning Sansa, while he was dying.

The fact that Sandor assaulted Sansa hardly proves that Sandor intended to rape Sansa. Assaults and rapes are not the same act. They are distinguishable acts. At no point during Sandor's assault upon Sansa did Sandor's physical actions indicate that he contemplated a rape.

The statements made by Sandor about Sansa, when he was dying, are hardly a smoking gun that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa. A casual reading of those statements might make some infer that Sandor did intend to rape Sansa. However, that inference is highly suspect, particularly when those statements are paired with events that occurred before those statements were made and when the logical structure, of at least one of those statements, is scrutinized closely.

If Sandor formed an intent to rape Sansa, then it would be nice if you or somebody else could give a plausible explanation when this said intent was formed. It would seem that the logical choices would be either before he entered Sansa's room on the night of The Battle of The Blackwater or after Sandor grabbed Sansa's arm and threw her down on the bed.

With regard to the first possibility, it doesn't seem likely that Sandor had formed any intent to commit a rape when he entered Sansa's room. If he had, then he certainly had an odd way of carrying out said intent. Normally, I would think, a would be rapist would not go into the intended victims room, with an intention to rape, but then first offer the intended victim their protection or sit there and talk to the intended rape victim about their fear of fire or how they were going to get out of KL. Accordingly, I find it unlikely that Sandor ever formed any intent to rape before he entered Sansa's room or before he began to speak to her.

This, of course, would leave open the possibility that Sandor formed said intent sometime after speaking to Sansa. But, looking at the chain of events, I think this conclusion would be highly dubious. Sandor's anger at Sansa seems to have been because he thought she wouldn't look at his face. This, I think, occurred right after Sansa closed her eyes because she thought the Hound was going to kiss her. The text clearly establishes that Sandor has some big issues over his face. Sandor makes several comments about his face to Sansa. When Sandor talks to Arya, he mentions to Arya the fact she looks him the face.

After yanking Sansa's arm and throwing her on the bed, Sandor at no point put his hands on any of Sansa's private parts. He never tried to slip his hand underneath her dress. In short, Sandor's physical actions that night gave no indication that Sandor had meant to rape Sansa.

When Sandor lay dying, his statements about Sansa certainly do not put Sandor in a great light. And, it's a bit understandable how a very casual reading of those statements might lead one to conclude that Sandor did form an attempt to rape Sansa. However, those statements, I believe, need to be parsed very carefully and the circumstances surrounding those statements need to be considered very carefully.

Before making his dying statements, Sandor learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion at the Inn at the Cross Roads. He was clearly upset about hearing that news. His emotional distress about hearing Tyrion's marriage to Sansa needs to considered when trying to interpret what is perhaps Sandor's most notorious statement regarding Sansa. That statement was:

Given that Sandor was clearly upset about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, I think it would be prudent to consider the above statement in that light. Also, taking the sentence literally is problematic. Did Sandor really intend to rip Sansa's heart out? Probably not. Also, notice in that statement that Sandor says "before leaving her for the dwarf". The upshot of this is that I think Sandor was speaking figuratively and not literally.

Reading Sandor's statements together, I think he was regretting his failures with regard to Sansa. I think a pretty clear indication of this is when speaks of being in his white cloak while he "let them beat her".

The bottom line is this: It's difficult to infer that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa from the statements he made when he was dying. Also, during The Battle of The Blackwater, Sandor took no action to indicate that he ever contemplated raping Sansa. Finally, there is a real question here of when Sandor would have formed such an intent to rape Sansa.

Great post!

It's interesting that at the beginning of Sandor's "death speech" he is expressing regret and shame about taking the song from Sansa, she did not give it. Sandor wants acceptance, that is what the song means to him but he had to take it from her. She did not give it willingly. Rape is about power and this just does not fit with Sandor's MO.

Blackwater was a very emotionally charged moment for Sandor and we can never for sure if for a brief moment the thought might have popped into Sandor's head. It's interesting that people cite the "fucked her bloody" bit as rape intention when actually the more ambiguous part of his speech for me was "I meant to take her too. I should have." There are several ways that could be read.

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They both say he left her, and they both regret it. She says, "he left me" and he says, "before leaving her"...

Should he have taken her with him, regardless of her consent, and that's the distinction I was also drawing with the breast grabs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Marillion, they all did that. Sandor never did.

Compare and contrast. He does that often, to show the differences.

In her last chapter, at the beginning, she wants "another kiss" (with Sandor) and at the end, Littlefinger wants "another kiss"...

Sandor doesn't take the kiss he wants, but he takes the song.

Littlefinger doesn't want the song, but he takes the kiss.

Sansa gives Sandor the kiss (in her memories). She's writing a song for them. It's very different from the songs she had in mind at the beginning of the story. But it's her own song. It's their song.

"I took the song, she never gave it" but before she said "I will sing it for you gladly"... and now she is doing just that. But he doesn't know it. He doesn't know she feels the same way.

The official app:

Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city.

Sansa:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city...

The show script, written by the author:

"I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe."

Also, listened to the commentary again, the author said the book scene was the same in this respect. The difference was "In the books he demands a song of her and she sings that hymn about the Mother again."

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BTW, we have been quoting your Sandorspeak on other threads. :)

Hehe I love Sandor speak! :lol:

But I also think it just goes to show how much hidden meaning there is behind his words and they cannot be taken at face value. I think it's actually Sandor's actions and behavior that are the best indicators of what he is really thinking. The subtle references to touching Sansa in King's Landing (desire), chopping wood after the RW (frustration/disappointment), his drinking at the inn when he hears about Sansa's marriage (despair), his sobbing when he talks about stealing the song (regret).

If we compare this to Sansa, her actions don't give much away but it is her thoughts that show us what her mind is fixed on. The unkiss is the main example of this.

They both say he left her, and they both regret it. She says, "he left me" and he says, "before leaving her"...

Should he have taken her with him, regardless of her consent, and that's the distinction I was also drawing with the breast grabs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Marillion, they all did that. Sandor never did.

Compare and contrast. He does that often, to show the differences.

In her last chapter, at the beginning, she wants "another kiss" (with Sandor) and at the end, Littlefinger wants "another kiss"...

Sandor doesn't take the kiss he wants, but he takes the song.

Littlefinger doesn't want the song, but he takes the kiss.

Sansa gives Sandor the kiss (in her memories). She's writing a song for them. It's very different from the songs she had in mind at the beginning of the story. But it's her own song. It's their song.

"I took the song, she never gave it" but before she said "I will sing it for you gladly"... and now she is doing just that. But he doesn't know it. He doesn't know she feels the same way.

The official app:

Sansa:

The show script, written by the author:

It all comes back to, he left her there. Like The Ned's Little Girl said so well:

I love the bolded part. Consent seems to be a big thing for Sandor. His brags to Ayra that Sansa " sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song." This is Sandor's fantasy, that Sansa willingly sang for him. When he is "dying", he admits the truth and is ashamed that he had to steal it from her.

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The show script, written by the author:

Be careful with that. Remember that in every episode of the show, regardless of the writer credit, there may be: scenes imported from other episodes; dialogue rewritten by the showrunners or director; lines or scenes inserted by the writer at the request of the showrunners; ad libs by actors; and/or a number of other amendments, alterations and additions. And, ultimately, show-canon and book-canon are not the same thing.

Just because something comes from an episode with GRRM's writer credit, does not make it any more relevant to a book discussion than any other line from the show.

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Hehe I love Sandor speak! :lol:

But I also think it just goes to show how much hidden meaning there is behind his words and they cannot be taken at face value. I think it's actually Sandor's actions and behavior that are the best indicators of what he is really thinking. The subtle references to touching Sansa in King's Landing (desire), chopping wood after the RW (frustration/disappointment), his drinking at the inn when he hears about Sansa's marriage (despair), his sobbing when he talks about stealing the song (regret).

If we compare this to Sansa, her actions don't give much away but it is her thoughts that show us what her mind is fixed on. The unkiss is the main example of this.

I like this... She sang him a sweet little song! A happy memory. The chopping wood was so good, too. Arya didn't know what to make of it. I also love the understated humor in their exchanges. Two people who don't say what they mean together!

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I love the bolded part. Consent seems to be a big thing for Sandor. His brags to Ayra that Sansa " sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song." This is Sandor's fantasy, that Sansa willingly sang for him. When he is "dying", he admits the truth and is ashamed that he had to steal it from her.

Well, it's certainly true that it was his fantasy. I wonder if he was trying to convince himself that it was true. The thing about Sandor is that he usually is seen as a pretty pragmatic character who sees things "as they are". Yet, it would seem that even Sandor can engage in delusional thinking at times. Like when he tells Arya that Robb "needs him". When I first read that line, I was like:"Ok, Sandor, Robb needs you. LOL. I guess his whole frickin kingdom is going to come undone if he doesn't take you in. Keep dreamin bud."

Sansa, evidently, isn't the only one who might deviate from reality on occasion.

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Well, it's certainly true that it was his fantasy. I wonder if he was trying to convince himself that it was true. The thing about Sandor is that he usually is seen as a pretty pragmatic character who sees things "as they are". Yet, it would seem that even Sandor can engage in delusional thinking at times. Like when he tells Arya that Robb "needs him". When I first read that line, I was like:"Ok, Sandor, Robb needs you. LOL. I guess his whole frickin kingdom is going to come undone if he doesn't take you in. Keep dreamin bud."

Sansa, evidently, isn't the only one who might deviate from reality on occasion.

This is so true! And this is where the duality exists between Sandor and "the Hound". Sandor was the little boy who played with toy knight's and wants acceptance. The Hound believes "killing is the sweetest thing there is."

This is one of my favorite quotes:

"If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he’ll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I’ll even kill Gregor for him, he’d like that.”

Now he is contemplating lordship? This is fantasy full throttle...what happened to 'fuck your sers!'

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Catching up to such great posts!

Really? The Beauty and Beast parallel is a "stretch"? More like "blatantly obvious", even if weren't written by the same guy who adores Jean Cocteau's La Belle et La Bete, wrote for the 80s TV series The Beauty and the Beast, said that the male lead from that show (Ron Perlman, who played the Vincent, the romantic Beast) was who he imagined as Sandor, and admitted that Jaime/Brienne was written as gender-swapped Beauty and the Beast story?

~~~snip~~~

Yes, Sansan and Jaime/Bri are both B&B stories and both are subtle, nuanced and very well done.

New Fake Daddy Petyr has such love, respect and kind regard for his bastard daughter. They're such the power badass couple that we have to ignore that he is grooming her and she never wanted him, nor Tyrion. Let the games begin. They'll pick off each and every competitor on their way to ruling Westeros.

Of course this way does effectively take Sansa and her desires all the way down in the muck. But who cares about Sansa and what she wants? She's just a tool who will give Tyrion and/or Littlefinger everything they ever wanted.
:snigger:

Highly doubt all that.

Well said.

So let me get this straight; apparently, according to you, Sandor intended to both rape Sansa and to ransom her as well. Upon delivering Sansa to Robb, in order to collect his ransom, Sandor must have planned to say to Robb, "I raped your sister, and I didn't think you'd mine, but you can knock a little bit off of my ransom, since I decided to rape her."

~~~snip~~~

The bottom line is this: It's difficult to infer that Sandor ever intended to rape Sansa from the statements he made when he was dying. Also, during The Battle of The Blackwater, Sandor took no action to indicate that he ever contemplated raping Sansa. Finally, there is a real question here of when Sandor would have formed such an intent to rape Sansa.

Thank you for this post, it is tremendous.

Its just ever since Sophie Turner talked about filming "a traumatic scene", my mind is going in really dark places and im like "SANSA MY BABY!" Cuz i think that scene is the "controversial" moment GRRM mentioned would happen in tWOW.

Lets be optimistic. Lets go with your theory!

May I suggest she finds out the LF betrayed her father? That too would be "a traumatic scene" in the book as well.

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More awesome sauce!

I for one agree with everything you say. I've been hoping against hope that Sandor & Sansa find their way back to each other. Her finally a woman and him finally a man instead of a beast. :) :love: :love: :love:

When Bri says to the EB "Sandor Clegen is dead." His reply is "He is at rest." I read that as part of what has put him in a 'restive' state is putting down the persona of Hound. The release of the Hound is part of what will bring out the man and put away the beast.

Great post!

It's interesting that at the beginning of Sandor's "death speech" he is expressing regret and shame about taking the song from Sansa, she did not give it. Sandor wants acceptance, that is what the song means to him but he had to take it from her. She did not give it willingly. Rape is about power, not sex and for me, rape just does not fit with Sandor's MO.

Blackwater was a very emotionally charged moment for Sandor and we can never for sure if for a brief moment the thought might have popped into Sandor's head. It's interesting that people cite the "fucked her bloody" bit as rape intention when actually the more ambiguous part of his speech for me was "I meant to take her too. I should have." There are several ways that could be read.

This is such an important concept to understand. He keeps asking for it too; "Look at me!" "A dog will look you straight in the face." He notes that at least Arya will look at his face. I read this as 'Look at me! Look past the face, look past the Hound and see Sandor Clegane, the man.' Great post.

~~~snip~~~

In her last chapter, at the beginning, she wants "another kiss" (with Sandor) and at the end, Littlefinger wants "another kiss"...

Sandor doesn't take the kiss he wants, but he takes the song.

Littlefinger doesn't want the song, but he takes the kiss.

Sansa gives Sandor the kiss (in her memories). She's writing a song for them. It's very different from the songs she had in mind at the beginning of the story. But it's her own song. It's their song.

"I took the song, she never gave it" but before she said "I will sing it for you gladly"... and now she is doing just that. But he doesn't know it. He doesn't know she feels the same way.

~~~snip~~~

Love this!

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