[SPOILERS ALL] Tywin Lannister Should Have Been King ...

[King Tyrion I]

I think Tywin would have been a much better king than Robert who basically had his feet put up a lot of the time.

And while I *know* people wouldn' t go for it, if the Lannisters had been allowed to emulate the Targaryens with a Jaime Cersei marriage I wonder if things might have been better for a lot of people. Again, I don't think the people would go for the incest even though Targs were doing it for years without the threat of dragons to back them up. Going with the idea though that people would have been able to accept Tywin as king with Jaime to follow and whatever kids he and Cersei had marrying into other houses to solidify alliances in addition to making the point that they aren't trying to set up some thing where there's incest for generations. If that had happened--

Robert wouldn't have had to be king and likely would have been happier as Lord of Storm's End. He wouldn't have had to marry Cersei. Hell, he might not have married at all. Might have been happier that way.

Stannis would never have felt slighted over Storm's End.

The succession wouldn't be in question apart from the threat of Viserys and Dany and I feel like Tywin probably would have had them taken out early on.

The crown wouldn't have been in massive debt with Tywin in charge.

Ned would never have been made Hand.

Renly and Loras might one day have served in the KG together. If nothing else Renly wouldn't have been tempted into taking the throne for himself.

Tyrion as a prince might have ended up with Dragonstone. He'd probably still be denied the Rock with someone like Tommen getting the Rock in this scenario, but I still think he might have been happier.

Bran wouldn't have been thrown in this scenario. No kidnapped Tyrion, no retaliation on the Riverlands.

Joffrey would have probably had his ass checked by Tywin and likely Jaime if he were allowed to behave as a father.

I can even see a scenario where the betrothals of the Lannister children being different too. Certainly in this scenario I can't see Myrcella being betrothed to Trystane. Robb or Willas seem the most likely.

Nice ideas. And I like them. Not only because I'm a die hard Lannister supporter, but also because I do think that for all whitewashing and bias of the Lannister-related chapters in TWoIaF there must be some truth that Tywin *was* quite effective as Hand of the King under Aerys II. After all, Ser Ilyn didn't lose his tongue for nothing.

[Ramsay Gimp]

GRRM likes to say that bad men can be good rulers, and good men can be bad rulers.

Tywin embodies the former.

[David Selig]

Robert put the realm in massive debt and this has a huge negative impact on the smallfolk.

What negative impact?

[Winterfell is Burning]

GRRM likes to say that bad men can be good rulers, and good men can be bad rulers.

And this automatically leads people to say "OMG, Tywin is a bad man, so he must be an AWESOME ruler"...

[Ramsay Gimp]

And this automatically leads people to say "OMG, Tywin is a bad man, so he must be an AWESOME ruler"...

Automatically? No. You'll notice people don't say the same thing about Joffrey, Cersei, Aerys, etc.

But your view of Tywin as some kind of incompetent who lucked his way to success is just wrong. It comes from an obvious dislike of the character and depends on grasping at straws, like discounting the Worldbook completely just because of Yandel's supposed bias. I highly doubt Elio, Linda and GRRM would spend all that time writing about Tywin just to paint a completely bullshit picture.

[ummester]

Tywin would have been an ok King, I recon - but he would still have put his Lannister pride in front of all things, causing bias within the realm and potential for future war.

The best King would be one who has no affiliation with a particular house or family. LF could make a fairly unbiased King - but, it probably wouldn't be enough for him.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin would have been an ok King, I recon - but he would still have put his Lannister pride in front of all things, causing bias within the realm and potential for future war.

The best King would be one who has no affiliation with a particular house or family. LF could make a fairly unbiased King - but, it probably wouldn't be enough for him.

That doesn't make sense. If someone becomes King, their House becomes the royal House and is expected to be first in honors and privileges. Even House Baelish

[ummester]

That doesn't make sense. If someone becomes King, their House becomes the royal House and is expected to be first in honors and privileges. Even House Baelish

A King that did away with that tradition and tried to rule the realm without bias would be a better King, is what I am saying. Fuck the houses. Fuck the family favoritism. Focus on the realm.

I would have thought Varys would have been ok, but he seems to be a Targ fanboy - so fuck him too :D

Westeros needs an unbiased leader and as good as I think Tywin might have been, his bias was too great.

[kieran wilkie]

No one cares about the small folk so Tywin can't be criticized for that more than others. But he's all about making House Lannister #1 and benefiting it...so once he literally is #1 I think he'd be a tiny (i mean really tiny) bit more fair to people in general.

If peasants had their houses burned down i'm sure (considering they're all his subjects, i.e. making him a profit) he would take care of them, to a degree. The only reason, i think he has a particularly bad reputation with small folk is because of burning riverland villages...well its certainly extreme and disgusting, but its warfare, so its to be expected of someone like him, in peace time i think he'd act a lot more differently...especially considering they're his subjects.

Tbh i think he'd be a good king in general for as you said, keeping the stability. Even if he did not help peasants with burned homes, that doesn't make him a bad king, it mean's he's unreasonable, but being king is (for the most part) keeping the stability and ensuring you're in control.

The idea that a king has to look after their subjects is a piece of propaganda/code for kings, doesn't mean they follow it. William the Conqueror was quite harsh once king of England, but he's generally considered quite a good king, having conquered and held onto a kingdom.

Being a good king is about staying in power and making income...because its basically a primitive form of capitalism, which is about getting to the top and kicking everyone else down who wants to reach the top. So in all these respects, Tywin would have been the greatest king.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

No to this entire topic. No, no, no...

The skills of an amazing Hand are ​not the skills of a good King. Jaehaerys I =/= the future Viserys II.

Tywin was a magnificent Hand. As King, he would have been a lion's version of Maegor.

IDK, part of being a lord/king is being a father and continuing your line. Tywin was a horrible father and Jaime would have been a horrible king after him.

:agree: I actually admire many things about Tywin, and have been enjoying Jaime's redemption arc. But this may be the one series where I don't really want to see lions (my favorite animal!) reign...

[Winterfell is Burning]

.

But your view of Tywin as some kind of incompetent who lucked his way to success is just wrong. It comes from an obvious dislike of the character and depends on grasping at straws, like discounting the Worldbook completely just because of Yandel's supposed bias. I highly doubt Elio, Linda and GRRM would spend all that time writing about Tywin just to paint a completely bullshit picture.

Pretty much every character- and that includes Ned, Tyrion, Daenerys, etc, and yes, Tywin- lucked their way into success, by being born in the right families. Tyrion himself says as much.

Tywin also lucked out in Clash, in which his success in the war came entirely from other sources- Theon attacking Winterfell, LF arranging a deal with the Tyrells (which ultimately led to Tywin's own demise), Cat releasing Jaime and Robb marrying Jeyne when both were mad with grief when Bran and Rickon "died", which only happened because the person they thought that was Reek was actually Ramsay, a shadowbaby killing Renly, etc.

He also lucked out that his father sent him to KL, which gave him the chance to be best friend of the grandson of the King. He was also lucky that Aerys came to power very young because Aegon was roasted at Summerhall and his father was sickly, and that he was a mad man that was turned on by Castamere rather than feeling disgust and want to distance himself out of it.

So, yes, a huge part of Tywin's success is pure luck, although he had undeniable qualities as an administrator and politician.

My point was that just because Tywin was a complete asshole, people assume it means he must be extremely competent; if he's ridiculously ruthless, it means that ruthlessness is undeniably effective. Except it's not; ASOIAF is at least as much of a critique of Hobbesian politics as it is of the "he's a good man, so he'll be a good King" mentality, but the Hobbesian brigade of these boards it doesn't notice or pretends not to.

And let's recap Tywin's demise:

• He ends up murdered by his own son, whom he had sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit, for having said son's 13 year old wife gang-raped, while in his bed with his son's former whore/lover. With Tywin being known for his dislike of prostitutes, the whole realm thinks of him as a hypocrite now;

The actual perpetrators of the crime were Tywin's biggest allies, that murdered his grandson in his own wedding in front of Tywin, framed his son, and got away with it, and one of Tywin's (apparently) yes-men, whom he judged too lowborn to be a threat;

His death leaves in charge his daughter, whom he knew was incompetent (so much he had to send Tyrion to rule KL for him) and was also increasingly madder, and she pretty much undoes everything he built in less than a year (admittedly, I don't think anyone could see the speed in which Cersei destroyed things, but everyone could see things wouldn't end well with her in charge);

How can an administration that leads to this be called a success? At the very least, his second tenure as Hand has to be called a complete failure, if not his entire period as Lord of Casterly Rock (his first tenure as Hand seems to be mostly very successful, but, yes, the Maester in TWOIAF is very biased, and you'd have to blind not to see how pro-Robert and pro-Lannister it is).

[Chaircat Meow]

SNIP

This post is truly bizarre, among sundry reasons because of your use of Hobbesian as an adjective to describe ruthless politics. Where oh where do you get that from? Hobbes is a theory of political obligation; not methods so much. Hobbes never suggests being ruthless afaik (and I ought to know).

[Winterfell is Burning]

This post is truly bizarre, among sundry reasons because of your use of Hobbesian as an adjective to describe ruthless politics. Where oh where do you get that from? Hobbes is a theory of political obligation; not methods so much. Hobbes never suggests being ruthless afaik (and I ought to know).

I'm using more of a generic term for ruthless politics (and for lack of a better one), I agree, although to be fair often what is described as Machiavellian has very few relations to the work of Machiavelli himself.

[Chaircat Meow]

I'm using more of a generic term for ruthless politics (and for lack of a better one), I agree, although to be fair often what is described as Machiavellian has very few relations to the work of Machiavelli himself.

I agree to an extent about the discord between standard use of Machiavellian and what old Nick says himself, but it remains a much better descriptor than Hobbesian.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Tywin had the Tarbecks and the Reynes wiped out, to the last infant, simply for defying his authority. How is that better than Robert, who forgave former enemies right and left after his successful rebellion?

Well, Tarbecks and Reynes aren't killing anyone right now, unlike Greyjoys whom Robert forgave.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Tywin would have been a great king.......until you pissed him off somehow and he sends his new LC the Mountain and his buddies the bloody mummers after you and they destroy everything you love.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Tywin has some things in his favor. He is a proven capable administrator.

He also has a powerful personality and gains people respect. He does know how to look and behave in a kingly manner.

He also has the backing of the richest and most powerful house.

But he lacks some important qualities -

people may respect him but he would never be a loved king.

He has very high level of class awareness and gives no thought to the situation of the smallfolk.

He also is also ultra sensitive when it comes to respecting him and reacts with extreme brutality even for slight perceived insults.

All this has a good potential to turn him into a tyrant. Though an effective one I suppose.

In addition as was stated here earlier, an extremely important aspect of royalty is producing an heir. Tywin is a terrible father to a dysfunctional family with one son completely uninterested in ruling, a daughter who is a crazy sociopath and his most decent kid being a dwarf which no Weserosi would accept as king.

So bottom line, I think he would make a pretty lousy king and even if his reign would be well organized he would not be loved and will not leave behind a functioning legacy.

[Chaircat Meow]

He also is also ultra sensitive when it comes to respecting him and reacts with extreme brutality even for slight perceived insults.

Does he? Examples?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Pretty much every character- and that includes Ned, Tyrion, Daenerys, etc, and yes, Tywin- lucked their way into success, by being born in the right families. Tyrion himself says as much.

Tywin also lucked out in Clash, in which his success in the war came entirely from other sources- Theon attacking Winterfell, LF arranging a deal with the Tyrells (which ultimately led to Tywin's own demise), Cat releasing Jaime and Robb marrying Jeyne when both were mad with grief when Bran and Rickon "died", which only happened because the person they thought that was Reek was actually Ramsay, a shadowbaby killing Renly, etc.

He also lucked out that his father sent him to KL, which gave him the chance to be best friend of the grandson of the King. He was also lucky that Aerys came to power very young because Aegon was roasted at Summerhall and his father was sickly, and that he was a mad man that was turned on by Castamere rather than feeling disgust and want to distance himself out of it.

So, yes, a huge part of Tywin's success is pure luck, although he had undeniable qualities as an administrator and politician.

My point was that just because Tywin was a complete asshole, people assume it means he must be extremely competent; if he's ridiculously ruthless, it means that ruthlessness is undeniably effective. Except it's not; ASOIAF is at least as much of a critique of Hobbesian politics as it is of the "he's a good man, so he'll be a good King" mentality, but the Hobbesian brigade of these boards it doesn't notice or pretends not to.

Yes, he had opportunities. But very few people would have taken advantage of those opportunities to the extent that Tywin did. No one argues he won the War of 5 Kings single-handedly, or that he didn't have lucky breaks, so I'm not sure what you're arguing there. But you are ignoring his unlucky breaks - Joffrey beheading Ned, Renly and the Tyrells rebelling, Robb's direwolf finding a secret path around the Golden Tooth, etc. Tywin managed to at least avoid making any disastrous blunders in the conflict - which is more than can be said of Robb and Stannis. Balon chose not to invade the West mainly due to a fear of Tywin (his cunning, not just his brutality). That says something.

And let's recap Tywin's demise:

• He ends up murdered by his own son, whom he had sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit, for having said son's 13 year old wife gang-raped, while in his bed with his son's former whore/lover. With Tywin being known for his dislike of prostitutes, the whole realm thinks of him as a hypocrite now;

The actual perpetrators of the crime were Tywin's biggest allies, that murdered his grandson in his own wedding in front of Tywin, framed his son, and got away with it, and one of Tywin's (apparently) yes-men, whom he judged too lowborn to be a threat;

His death leaves in charge his daughter, whom he knew was incompetent (so much he had to send Tyrion to rule KL for him) and was also increasingly madder, and she pretty much undoes everything he built in less than a year (admittedly, I don't think anyone could see the speed in which Cersei destroyed things, but everyone could see things wouldn't end well with her in charge);

How can an administration that leads to this be called a success? At the very least, his second tenure as Hand has to be called a complete failure, if not his entire period as Lord of Casterly Rock (his first tenure as Hand seems to be mostly very successful, but, yes, the Maester in TWOIAF is very biased, and you'd have to blind not to see how pro-Robert and pro-Lannister it is).

No one ever said he was a good parent to Tyrion. Tywin knew Cersei would be a disaster as both parent and ruler, that's why he wanted to marry her off again. Regicide just kind of put that on hold. Yes, he also underestimated LF and Varys, as has literally every person in the story. Joffrey's death did not hurt Tywin at all, and actually would have been a benefit for the Lannisters in the long run.

But the fact that things fell apart so quickly without Tywin is a point in his favor, IMO. Many great men of history failed to safeguard their legacy or dynasties after death, but are still regarded as great. Even after Cersei's shenanigans, Kevan and Pycelle (both devoted to Tywin) might have been able to save the regime if it weren't for Varys

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin's bloodthirstiness is exaggerated by many posters who claim he always seeks the most brutal, cruel option.

They completely ignore fact that he gave Thorne and the other Targaryen Knights the option of taking the black when he could have just taken their heads, wanted to spare Ned Stark, wanted to spare Tyrion despite Tyrion's apparent guilt, and pardoned dozens of rebel houses in the War of 5 Kings.