[SPOILERS ALL] Tywin Lannister Should Have Been King ...

[RainGhost]

I don't believe there's such a thing as an "ideal" king. Everybody has their good qualities and their flaws and I think that the good kings are those who don't let their flaws get the better of them and/or are good at delegating. I think Tywin could have been a good king ... in peacetime.

Tywin's good qualities:

- Good administrator

- Good with money

- Widely feared

- Can be just

- Understands politics

- Good battle commander

Tywin's flaws:

- Too brutal

- Underestimates non-Lannisters

- Too ambitious

- Bad father

- Doesn't understand that a ruler has a duty to protect the people they rule

- Overreacts to perceived slights to House Lannister

That's why I think that in peacetime with the Lannisters as the ruling House, he could be fair and provide stability. But if there was some political incident or he perceived some slight to his House, then he could very quickly turn everyone against him.

[Batbob45]

The only way he would of been a good king if you tried to compare him to Aerys.The only thing that those two are diffrent are is that both Tywin is both pramatic(in his way) and saner than Aerys.

[Ramsay Gimp]

- Too ambitious

But he would be King in this instance so how would this ambition necessarily be harmful? Tywin has a strong sense of prudence, and hates the idea of a "bold" King like Robert. He also had to deal with Aery's harebrained schemes like building a 2nd Wall, so I doubt he'd be the type of Monarch to launch crazy, overly-ambitious projects

- Doesn't understand that a ruler has a duty to protect the people they rule

Explain?

[Caesar Targaryen]

Some interesting responses from both sides, but my opinion still stands: the harsh and unforgiving world of ASOIAF needs a leader who can navigate it, and Tywin Lannister possessed all the skills necessary to produce a successful reign.

[Victarion10]

Tywin would have been the best king ever.

[RainGhost]

But he would be King in this instance so how would this ambition necessarily be harmful? Tywin has a strong sense of prudence, and hates the idea of a "bold" King like Robert. He also had to deal with Aery's harebrained schemes like building a 2nd Wall, so I doubt he'd be the type of Monarch to launch crazy, overly-ambitious projects

Explain?

I did say later in my post that if House Lannister were the ruling House, this probably wouldn't be a problem but it could be problem if he insisted on appointing Lannisters or Lannister loyalists to all the high offices and giving no one else a share of the rule. Also if he started stealing other people's castles (Darry, Riverrun, Winterfell) like a grasping monkey. That's just going to piss everyone else off.

To answer your second question: the riverlands.

[Trigger Warning]

I did say later in my post that if House Lannister were the ruling House, this probably wouldn't be a problem but it could be problem if he insisted on appointing Lannisters or Lannister loyalists to all the high offices and giving no one else a share of the rule. Also if he started stealing other people's castles (Darry, Riverrun, Winterfell) like a grasping monkey. That's just going to piss everyone else off.

To answer your second question: the riverlands.

Well the Riverlands aren't his people to be fair.

Just because you conduct a campaign of cheavuchee doesn't mean you wouldn't protect your own people, even if it isn't for compassionate reasons.

[RainGhost]

Well the Riverlands aren't his people to be fair.

Just because you conduct a campaign of cheavuchee doesn't mean you wouldn't protect your own people, even if it isn't for compassionate reasons.

Tywin claimed to be the rightful Hand of the King of all 7 Kingdoms at the time.

[Batbob45]

Stannis is kinda like Tywin if Tywin cared a little bit about justice.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin claimed to be the rightful Hand of the King of all 7 Kingdoms at the time.

He wasn't going to help "defend" his enemies, though.

[RainGhost]

He wasn't going to help "defend" his enemies, though.

Tywin was the one who started the war in the riverlands. He turned the river lords against him. Do you think they would all have supported Robb otherwise? Tywin released them from any obligation to support the Iron Throne because he broke the feudal contract by attacking them. And the smallfolk did nothing to deserve what they suffered.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Does he? Examples?

Ordered the brutal rape and murder of Elia and her children mostly because she married the prince after his own offer to marry him to his daughter was refused.

Started pillaging the Riverlands with his men abusing and murdering the smallfolk because his son was kidnapped by the daughter of their lord.

Ordering the gang rape of his son's new wife because she was a commoner.

And this is without mentioning the Reynes and Tarbecks which can be justified as a necessary political move.

[Chaircat Meow]

Ordered the brutal rape and murder of Elia and her children mostly because she married the prince after his own offer to marry him to his daughter was refused.

Started pillaging the Riverlands with his men abusing and murdering the smallfolk because his son was kidnapped by the daughter of their lord.

Ordering the gang rape of his son's new wife because she was a commoner.

I don't agree that Tywin's motives were as you described them wrt all the bolded. I don't believe Oberyn was right about the why of Elia's death. It is also clear Tywin did not invade the riverlands over Tyrion's abduction.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

Am I wrong in thinking that Tywin made a comment that indicated he would have been fine with Elia living? At some point I think he and Tyrion are having a discussion about it all and IIRC he seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think he'd have ordered Elia's rape and murder. Was he having Tyrion on? For what purpose?

This wouldn't make him a better person or anything--he still obviously ordered the murders of children among other horrible things--I just wonder because to me it suggests that with the exception of Tysha's gang rape (which I think is tied into Joanna likely having been raped by Aerys), I don't think that Tywin is the sort of man who is cruel for the sake of being cruel nor do I think he's sadistic like a character such as Ramsay. I think some part of him simply became unhinged after whatever happened with Joanna. The seeds might well have already been there and he was definitely ruthless before, but to me it seems he became a different man after everything that (probably IMO ) happened to Joanna.

If Tywin had been king earlier on in his life I think he might even have been good as opposed to simply being a better option than Robert Baratheon which I still say he is.

Robert "beggared the realm". Why wouldn't that have consequences for the smallfolk when it comes to emergency situations like winter and not having enough to eat? Robert wasted the tax money from the smallfolk. You don't exactly want to be indebted to the Iron Bank at a time like that. Thanks, Robert.

It also adds insult to injury that he'll be remembered fondly even though he partied at the expense of and to the detriment of the realm. I just don't see Tywin leaving the realm in a position like that if he'd been made king right after the rebellion.

I don't see him as someone who would actively try to make life miserable for the smallfolk unless we're talking about war time. I just don't get that vibe based on what I've read in the books or seen on the show.

[Vikingkingq]

I think the problem with Tywin as King is that he's got no claim to the Iron Throne - why should the Reach or the Riverlands or the North or the Iron Islands or the Vale or the Stormlands or Dorne bend the knee to Tywin Lannister?

[Chaircat Meow]

Am I wrong in thinking that Tywin made a comment that indicated he would have been fine with Elia living? At some point I think he and Tyrion are having a discussion about it all and IIRC he seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think he'd have ordered Elia's rape and murder. Was he having Tyrion on? For what purpose?

No, you're right.

However, it is very contentious exactly what was going on there.

This wouldn't make him a better person or anything--he still obviously ordered the murders of children among other horrible things--I just wonder because to me it suggests that with the exception of Tysha's gang rape (which I think is tied into Joanna likely having been raped by Aerys), I don't think that Tywin is the sort of man who is cruel for the sake of being cruel nor do I think he's sadistic like a character such as Ramsay. I think some part of him simply became unhinged after whatever happened with Joanna. The seeds might well have already been there and he was definitely ruthless before, but to me it seems he became a different man after everything that (probably IMO ) happened to Joanna.

I'll repost my theory from another thread.

The motive for the murders.

I’ll lay out one quite speculative theory of what Tywin was doing, based on clues in the books and world book. It is based on a number of other prior speculations, which I will not defend here but which I have underlined (if you don’t agree with them you won’t agree with the theory as a whole).

The theory is that sometime in 272-273 (but probably after Joanna’s death) Tywin developed a plan for revenge against King Aerys that entailed deposing him, becoming the new king’s father-in-law, and placing his grandchildren on the Iron Throne. The reason for this was Aerys’s behaviour, and especially his rape of Tywin’s wife at the tourney in 272, which Tywin thought led to Tyrion’s birth and the death of Joanna. In sacking KL and killing Elia and the children Tywin was carrying out a variant of this long term plan he had developed in 272-273, with Robert substituted for Rhaegar, and with Aerys’s grandchildren being killed to make way for Tywin’s own. I believe Tywin had been promised in advance, by Jon Arryn, that he could have Robert for Cersei if he slew Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia.

The evidence for this theory is as follows.

Tywin seems to become enamoured of the royal match only after the death of Joanna. We know, from Oberyn’s recollections that Joanna hoped to make one, or maybe two Martell marriages in 273. We know Tywin listened to Joanna, and people thought she had a lot of influence over him. He must therefore have not been set on marrying Cersei to Rhaegar before Joanna died. We know from Oberyn that Tywin did refuse the PoD’s offer, very brusquely, on the grounds that Cersei was meant for Rhaegar. That refusal therefore seems to be the consequence of Joanna’s death, from birthing a child Tywin suspected to be Aerys’s.

Tywin had very little hope of pulling this marriage off. We know from the world book Tywin hated Aerys by this stage and that Aerys wanted to humiliate him and put him in his place. In these circumstances hoping to marry your daughter to the prince seems totally laughable … unless the king was not the man you thought would ever be accepting your offer. If the marriage was going to go ahead it would be with Rhaegar as king. Therefore the very fact of pursuing the royal marriage implies Tywin meant to revenge himself on the king. And his motive was the rape/death of his wife, after which he become determined to pursue the match. This plot did not escape the king, or even the public at large. We are told in the world book Aerys suspected that Tywin planned to put Rhaegar in his place and marry Rhaegar to Cersei. Aerys was right. Tywin wanted his revenge.

However, this scheme failed. Rhaegar did not join with Tywin and depose his father but married Elia Martell instead. It seems likely Aerys made this match, as he did not trust Rhaegar. As Valyrian blood seems to be a requirement for Aerys (he was born of such a match himself) the Dornish were a logical port of call. However, it is possible the PoD (who seems to have been on or near her deathbed at the time) passed on details of Tywin’s refusal of Elia to her friend Queen Rhaella, who then informed the king who did not lose a chance to spite Tywin. Even after this Tywin still hoped Rhaegar might marry Cersei, but those plans were scotched when Elia gave birth to Aegon.

However, Robert’s Rebellion gave Tywin another way of putting his basic plan for revenge into operation. Jon Arryn wanted Rhaegar’s son dead to secure Robert’s new dynasty but feared dirtying his own hands and losing the support of Ned Stark. He offered Tywin the Queenship for Cersei if Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia were killed before the rebel army came to the city. By carrying out Jon’s dirty work Tywin would strike the final blow against Aerys and his dynasty and get his grandchildren on the Iron Throne (which was always part of his desired revenge). This was close, in Tywin’s mind, to the plan he had been adhering to since 273, but with Rhaegar exchanged for Robert. Tywin would help to depose Aerys and get his children into the succession, while destroying Aerys’s dynasty at the same time. Or, in other words, revenge.

[Chaircat Meow]

Maybe also relevant to the whole, was Tywin a petty sadist argument, another of my posts.

For all you posters who think Tywin wanted Gregor to rape Elia and be really brutal: have you thought this through?

First, why do people suppose Tywin had a grudge against Elia? If the answer is the marriage to Rhaegar, which Tywin wanted for Cersei (Oberyn's argument), consider this. The marriage of Rhaegar and Elia was not a snub to Tywin by the Princess of Dorne. We know that breaking a marriage contract to marry someone else is a slight: (quite a serious one) it is what Robb did to the Freys. The PoD clearly did not do this to Tywin, and nor did Aerys. We also know hurrying through a marriage when someone else has expressed an interest, in order to get in there first, is a slight too. Tywin fears giving offence to Mace this way in SoS. Yet the PoD didn't do that. Tywin had expressed an interest in Rhaegar for Cersei in front of the PoD but he had been very publicly refused four years before the match of Rhaegar and Elia (and he also knew there was no chance of Aerys ever accepting). Tywin therefore could not be taken to be officially pursuing Rhaegar for Cersei when Rhaegar married Elia. It is also not the case that Aerys refused Cersei for Rhaegar because of something the PoD did. We know agreeing to the marriage would not fit Aerys's MO at the time. We also know Elia was not the next port of call after Cersei: the Free Cities were searched instead. I cannot see how the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia could really be construed as a slight against Tywin by the PoD. If Tywin did have a grudge for this he is far pettier than even Walder Frey. And stupid, because he was not snubbed/slighted in this case at all.

There is also no evidence that the PoD orchestrated the marriage of Elia to Rhaegar out of spite of Tywin. She was actually dying at the time the marriage went through. By the time the betrothal was announced Doran was Prince of Dorne. The PoD happily told Oberyn on her deathbed that she'd got one over on Tywin for his snub, but the fact she was, well ... dying, probably militates against her being behind the match.

So Tywin had no motive to give Elia an especially brutal death. I also think he was not lying when he told Tyrion that even he (Tyrion) ought not to accuse him of giving the order for the rape. Many readers think this is an obvious lie on Tywin's part, given he did have Tysha raped. However, Tywin is a clever man and obviously thought through the lies he was going to tell Tyrion about the murders. He didn't just let that slip by chance: he expected Tyrion to believe that. And he had certainly not forgotten about Tysha given the trouble with Alayaya and Tommen at the start of the book. We have to ask what was going on here. Why did Tywin think Tyrion would believe a claim that he (Tywin) would not give that order? Before we go on, for the avoidance of all doubt, I am not trying to defend or normalize Tywin's treatment of Tysha: what he did was rape and it was evil, don't get me wrong.

Yet the explanation for Tywin's statement to Tyrion is this is that by Lord Tywin's logic Tysha was not raped or, if she was, her case was not at all comparable to Elia. That logic is what Tywin expects (actually demands) Tyrion accept. To see this we have to examine the rape of Tysha.

The purpose of Tywin's little demonstration with Tysha was to teach Tyrion that no woman could love him, and that any woman who said she did was only a 'whore/golddigger' out to lie to him, steal his money and make a fool out of him. In other words, all women who say they love Tyrion are like Shae in Tywin's eyes. And although Tywin has Jaime lie to Tyrion about Tysha, he does himself genuinely think Tysha doesn't love Tyrion and was only interested in his money, hence her payment during the rape. In Tywin's mind she's like Tytos's mistress, who he thinks made a fool out of his father, acquiring jewels/power and taking advantage of Tytos's sadness after the death of Tywin's mother. In SoS the Alayaya incident would have only confirmed for Tywin that he was right to teach Tyrion a stiff lesson in this regard. In Tywin's eyes Tyrion was so fond of his mistress he was ready to threaten his own family with beatings/rape in order to protect her. Tywin thought this was unforgiveable and it was the reason for the bile he displayed towards Tyrion when Tyrion asked for CR.

Note though, that Tywin did not have Alayaya raped (he flogged her instead) and he didn't have Tytos's mistress raped either. His next stop on the 'how to punish whores tour' was hanging, not rape. I don't think raping women who offend him is Tywin's MO therefore. The gang rape of Tysha was something done for Tyrion's 'benefit': it was not a way to avenging a slight done to Tywin by Tysha. So Tywin would not think it comparable to what happened to Elia because he had no reason to consider Elia like he did Tytos's mistress/Tysha/Shae (as a 'whore/golddigger' attacking the Lannister family), and no need to use rape as a punishment.

Tywin therefore did not have a grudge against Elia such that he wanted her to die brutally to satiate his lust for revenge, nor, if he did, would a brutal rape and murder be his MO.

[Petyr Patter]

Some interesting responses from both sides, but my opinion still stands: the harsh and unforgiving world of ASOIAF needs a leader who can navigate it, and Tywin Lannister possessed all the skills necessary to produce a successful reign.

Well, I kind of feel like this is a horse and cart puzzle.

The harsh and unforgiving world of ASOIAF is that way because of men like Tywin. In order to make the world better, it needs to get rid of the child killers, not crown them.

And ultimately, Tywin's approach to ruling was going to come crashing down on him. Machiavelli said it was better to be feared than loved, but he also said hatred was to be avoided. And Tywin kept earning hatred. Dorne hates him. King's Landing hates him. The Riverlands hate him. The North hates him. Though they arrived to late, the common Septors hate him. Then, his own children hated him, which is what finally got him killed.

I would also point out Tywin's had another flaw: he put pride above practicality. A lot of what he claims he did "because it was practical," was really about pride.

[Lee-Sensei]

Well, I kind of feel like this is a horse and cart puzzle.

The harsh and unforgiving world of ASOIAF is that way because of men like Tywin. In order to make the world better, it needs to get rid of the child killers, not crown them.

And ultimately, Tywin's approach to ruling was going to come crashing down on him. Machiavelli said it was better to be feared than loved, but he also said hatred was to be avoided. And Tywin kept earning hatred. Dorne hates him. King's Landing hates him. The Riverlands hate him. The North hates him. Though they arrived to late, the common Septors hate him. Then, his own children hated him, which is what finally got him killed.

I would also point out Tywin's had another flaw: he put pride above practicality. A lot of what he claims he did "because it was practical," was really about pride.

IIRC, Machiavelli talked about hatred from your people. The people in his Kingdom don't hate him. They fear and respect him.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think if Tywin Lannister somehow became king, the realm would be much more stable.

Think about it: when he served as Aerys' hand, he did most of the heavy lifting for him, and the kingdoms prospered. So he already has/had experience in ruling the realm. He's also a great leader and tactician and seems like the kind of guy that if you stayed on his good side, he'd leave you be but would use force to subdue any uprisings and send a message to any others who might not to (i.e. his destruction of House Reyne).

So as much as we like to think of him as a villain, I think he would have been a better king than any of the actual competitors in the Wot5K.

He was Aerys hand and the realm prospered? You mean up until Tywin had Pycelle talk him into opening the gates and then sacked the city for Robert? Tywin was impressive in a lot of ways, but he was scum in a lot of ways too.