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Is it possible that Jon was born premature?


Pikachu101

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The more I think about it the odder it is that Lyanna had medical attention or assistance. If she did she wouldn't be dying in her own blood and I'm pretty sure she would have survived childbirth if she was in sanitary conditions.

I mean if sickly Elia could survive two pregnancies despite both of them almost killing her then I see no reason why healthy Lyanna would die.

I think Rhaegar's plan was to wait until the last minute to get a midwife, that way he can insure Visenya's (I think it's pretty obvious he expected the baby to be a girl) safe delivery but at the same time Lyanna's whereabouts won't be known until necessary.

But then he went to fight Robert and say Lyanna finds out about her family and Westeros. Could the shock have caused early labour?

It would explain how Howland's the only one who still knows what happened all those years ago

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I'm no expert on pregnancy but it seems to me she's likely an emotional wreck at this time no matter what scenario you subscribe to. If they love each other, she's had to spend the whole term of her pregnancy coping with the fact that their love started a war and no matter who wins, her family or her love, she's going to lose. If she's a victim, she had to endure rape along with prolonged imprisonment. That sort of emotional duress does take it's course on a body, and couple that with a pregnancy and it's entirely possible that the combination did her in. To say nothing of this is virtual medieval medical science we have here and all kinds of things can go wrong, women dying during childbirth wasn't uncommon.


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The text has Ned remembering the babies head crowning when he thinks of Lyanna, doesn't it? I'm not sure that a mother could crown a prem baby? Perhaps, again, someone who knows more about childbirth is needed to answer this.



The most common cause of maternal death is blood loss, which would be consistent with the description of Lyanna's passing.



The thread represents an interesting topic. The text suggests something went wrong for Lyanna with Jon's birth - what it is isn't described.


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An interesting OP. It would have been pretty commonplace for a mother to die in childbirth in that day and age, even with a maester or a midwife in attendance - but without someone knowledgeable in medical matters at the birth, the chances of something going wrong are substantially increased. Obviously we don't know the full story so maybe Lyanna had professional help to hand, but if she didn't - perhaps because the baby came earlier than expected - then that maybe contributed to her death once complications ensued.


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The text has Ned remembering the babies head crowning when he thinks of Lyanna, doesn't it? I'm not sure that a mother could crown a prem baby? Perhaps, again, someone who knows more about childbirth is needed to answer this.

The most common cause of maternal death is blood loss, which would be consistent with the description of Lyanna's passing.

The thread represents an interesting topic. The text suggests something went wrong for Lyanna with Jon's birth - what it is isn't described.

A premature baby, if delivered without caesarian, will still crown.

If Jon (presuming Lyanna is his mother of course!) was born premature, then it's a miracle he survived in the circumstances.

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I agree with the above about medieval medical care but it also occurred to me that Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Tyrion too.



Maybe giving birth to a part-dragon baby is excessively tough on the body for a non-dragon mother. From the World book It seems that Targaryen stillborns/miscarriages are often similar to Raego - clawed, twisted, deformed, with leathern wings and/or tails. And there are a lot of them. Elia was severely damaged too. So much that she could not have any more babies - even though I don't believe hers were true dragons.



In this magical world where the Valyrians somehow magically genetically bonded with the dragons to control them way back in time (as speculated in the World Book), Targaryen babies are a genetic spectrum - those which carry too many dragon genes do not survive and have some dragon-like features, others (maybe like Viserys) survive but with not enough dragon genes to really bond, and then those like Dany who look completely human, but have just enough dragon genes to keep this link alive.



This might go some way to explain their dodgy selective breeding programme (the incest thing), but also it may be that it is so hard on the body to give birth to a live dragon-baby that only dragons themselves can really do this without a strong risk of dying in the process. They are in a world where it is the men who rule and primarily continue the royal line. but only the women who can keep the line going.



In that case it would be so much simpler and less incest driven if the royal line passed through the female line, just for reasons of practicality.


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Though I'm not down with Tyrion being a Targ, your explanation makes sense to me The Wolfswood. Birthing magically/genetically enhanced dragon bonded babies represents a risk for the mother, the less magical Valyrian blood the mother has, the greater the risk.



And I would agree Gallivant that a prem baby surviving a dying mother and being trecked across country by Ned to a milk mother - probably Wylla - would have a low survival rate in the world presented in ASoIaF. It seems more reasonable to assume Jon was full term and his Targ blood killed Lyanna birthing him. Lyanna's fever may have been due to Jon coming to term.


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Though I'm not down with Tyrion being a Targ, your explanation makes sense to me The Wolfswood. Birthing magically/genetically enhanced dragon bonded babies represents a risk for the mother, the less magical Valyrian blood the mother has, the greater the risk.

And I would agree Gallivant that a prem baby surviving a dying mother and being trecked across country by Ned to a milk mother - probably Wylla - would have a low survival rate in the world presented in ASoIaF. It seems more reasonable to assume Jon was full term and his Targ blood killed Lyanna birthing him. Lyanna's fever may have been due to Jon coming to term.

That's an interesting thought. It will require a thorough comb-through the WoIaF book but I wonder if more non-Targ mothers bearing Targ children die in childbirth or are weakened by the experiences than those mothers with more Targ genes?

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Maybe, or maybe he was late. I don't see what that adds to the story. As for Lyanna's death in childbirth, well sometimes women just die in childbirth. Even now in first world countries it happens occasionally. Just one of those things.

This is also very true. Death in childbirth would have been commonplace in the medieval society ASOIAF is set in.

I do wonder though if a maester or midwife was to hand. It would be interesting to find out at some point. If not, then just maybe Lyanna fell into premature labour and there was no time to get someone to attend to her? However, considering Rhaegar left Kingsguard to protect her, it would be surprising if a maester wasn't present as well in view of her condition.

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Stop, the ignorance about childbirth is just too painful.




Women die in childbirth sometimes, even young fit healthy women. Sometimes something goes wrong, incorrect positioning, cervical tears, placental ruptures, haemorrhage. Labour can sometimes last days and even the fittest woman will become drained and exhausted, babies can get stuck, wombs can prolapse, and above all INFECTION. It sounds as though Lyanna died of puerperal fever, which is caused by infection and can happen even in the most modern hospital setting.



The fact is NORMAL childbirth is very safe. But complications can arise and without modern medical intervention things going wrong can lead to more frequent deaths. Some times deaths occur because medical practice of the day is wrong.



And yes for crying out loud a baby crowning simply means the top of the head emerging from the vagina, all babies born vaginally crown.



As to if he were premature. I doubt it. we have zero textual evidence to suggest it. he is strong, fit healthy a good size for his age etc. Prem babies tend to have life long health problems, even today. Elia is a prime example of a premature baby grown. Doran tells us in the book she was early and was sickly all her life.

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From the World book It seems that Targaryen stillborns/miscarriages are often similar to Raego - clawed, twisted, deformed, with leathern wings and/or tails. And there are a lot of them.

...

In this magical world where the Valyrians somehow magically genetically bonded with the dragons to control them way back in time (as speculated in the World Book), Targaryen babies are a genetic spectrum - those which carry too many dragon genes do not survive and have some dragon-like features, others (maybe like Viserys) survive but with not enough dragon genes to really bond, and then those like Dany who look completely human, but have just enough dragon genes to keep this link alive.

After reading TWOIAF, I figured the deformities were simply a consequence of such radical inbreeding. The "wings" are strange, surely, but that could've simply been the Targaryens applying their "blood of the dragon" beliefs to these stillborns, and Mirri Maz Duur trying to frighten and traumatize Dany as much as possible.

I do like your theory, though. It makes total sense.

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Prem babies tend to have life long health problems, even today. Elia is a prime example of a premature baby grown. Doran tells us in the book she was early and was sickly all her life.

I'm sure some do, but this is not the rule. My husband was born two months premature and is one of the healthiest people I know. Jon being a fit guy doesn't rule out the possibility that he was premature.

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I'm sure some do, but this is not the rule. My husband was born two months premature and is one of the healthiest people I know. Jon being a fit guy doesn't rule out the possibility that he was premature.

Well I'm sure your husband received the very best of modern medical care and benefited from decades of research to ensure he did.

Fact is as a rule prem babies tend to have more health issues throughout life. My dad was very prem in 1939 and indeed had all the atypical health issues that went along with being born early back then, my sister was born early (at 34 weeks) in the 1980's and she died due to the problems prem babies can have.

All the medical research we have today shows that prem babies are at more risk of life long health issues than term babies. I think its very unlikely that in a work of fiction the author would choose to have a character be born early and not include any "give away" traits. especially when he already wrote an early born character into the story and gave her health issues which he explains via the fact of her having been early.

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I'm sure some do, but this is not the rule. My husband was born two months premature and is one of the healthiest people I know. Jon being a fit guy doesn't rule out the possibility that he was premature.

Agreed. I have a brother-in-law too who was very premature and is a giant of a man! However, one major difference between now and the time of ASOIAF of course, is that we have advanced medical care.

Having said that, we have no way of knowing if Jon was born early or not. I'm not sure it would be relevant, even if he was.

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"They" found Ned holding Lyanna. So Howland isn't the only one knowing what happen.



As for the rest I think that is kind of :bs: . I am not an expert but I think that healthy women die during childbirth and sikly women survive. It doesn't mean that a healthy woman will die only if the baby is premature. Heck even todays a medical mistake can cause sepsis and maternal death.


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I don't see what that adds to the story.

Basically there was a former thread saying there had to be more witnesses to Jon's parentage because there's no way Rhaegar wouldn't insure the safe devilery of Aegon's third head. So my argument is that maybe Jon was born premature thus meaning Lyanna had no medical assistance to help her birth, therefore there are no other witnesses.

My bad, I should've worded it better

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I'm sure some do, but this is not the rule. My husband was born two months premature and is one of the healthiest people I know. Jon being a fit guy doesn't rule out the possibility that he was premature.

Modern times = medical care for premature babies = prevention of lifelong complications.

Though it all depends on how well developed and healthy the baby is at time of birth. More than two months premature and the chances of life long complications are very high, even today.

Middle ages were worse, there was no medical care for premature babies. Child mortality was very high, even when a child was born full term. A premature birth probably meant death, in most cases. To use an in universe example, Elia Martell was premature. And she was sickly all her life.

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