Hobbit Movie discussion II - Here be Spoilers

[Werthead]

I suppose they could attempt a film about Aragorn's rule and the 4th age.

Tolkien started writing The Lord of the Rings II: The New Shadow which was about Aragorn's descendents being threatened by corrupt politicians in Gondor.

Of course, Tolkien realised this sounded shit, so he abandoned it after a few pages. I doubt Jackson would be so restrained if they went down that route (although that's something else they don't have the rights to).

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I'm not sure what I just watched, but it certainly wasn't the Hobbit.

Fortunately, you all lowered my expectations, but I'm still really fucking annoyed. What a mess of a film.

:tantrum:

[Starkess]

At least it's over and Peter Jackson can no longer torture the poor carcass of a book.

[Shryke]

Can they make ME fan fiction without violating trademark?

The Hobbit trilogy, the LOTR trilogy, Shadows of Mordor and all the other videogames based in the setting say hell yes they can.

In fact, when making new material in the LOTR universe they actually have to actively avoid making it like the non-LOTR/Hobbit stuff because if it looks similar enough to things from the Middle-Earth work that they aren't licensed to use, they could get invite serious legal issues.

[Spring Bass]

Christopher Tolkien's been opposed to any adaptation of the series or any of his father's works for film, but what about any other Tolkien estate family members once he presumably dies at some point in the next 10 years? That's a lot of money to leave at the table if someone thinks it would be awesome to use some of the ancillary stuff for an adaption. I'd love to see someone try adapting the "Last Alliance" conflict into a film series.

[HexMachina]

At least it's over and Peter Jackson can no longer torture the poor carcass of a book.

Or so we hope...

[Werthead]

Christopher Tolkien's been opposed to any adaptation of the series or any of his father's works for film, but what about any other Tolkien estate family members once he presumably dies at some point in the next 10 years? That's a lot of money to leave at the table if someone thinks it would be awesome to use some of the ancillary stuff for an adaption. I'd love to see someone try adapting the "Last Alliance" conflict into a film series.

The other members of the Estate aren't so opposed. Priscilla Tolkien (Christopher's younger sister, and Tolkien's only daughter) was very supportive of the Bakshi film back in the 1970s, for example. Simon Tolkien (Christopher's oldest son) visited the film set and has been more pro-Jackson. He was temporarily exiled from the family but later reconciled. However, he now lives in California and is a successful crime novelist, so he's unlikely to be involved. The people most likely to inherit the Estate are either Adam Tolkien (Christopher's second son) or more likely Michael Tolkien, Christopher's nephew and Tolkien's grandson (by one of his older, deceased children). They both tow the party line on the films sucking in public, but once money is on the table and Christopher is no longer around, who knows?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SJB,

Christopher Tolkien's been opposed to any adaptation of the series or any of his father's works for film, but what about any other Tolkien estate family members once he presumably dies at some point in the next 10 years? That's a lot of money to leave at the table if someone thinks it would be awesome to use some of the ancillary stuff for an adaption. I'd love to see someone try adapting the "Last Alliance" conflict into a film series.

:shocked:

Just walk away or we get scrubbing bubbles of death busting into Mordor to pave the way for the last Alliance. Just walk away.

[HexMachina]

Christopher Tolkien's been opposed to any adaptation of the series or any of his father's works for film, but what about any other Tolkien estate family members once he presumably dies at some point in the next 10 years? That's a lot of money to leave at the table if someone thinks it would be awesome to use some of the ancillary stuff for an adaption. I'd love to see someone try adapting the "Last Alliance" conflict into a film series.

Would such a film include a battle between Legolas and Sauron? I feel that Legolas has been under-utilised by Jackson, and this would present he perfect means of giving him something exciting and meaningful to do!

Or, alternatively,what Scot said

SJB,

:shocked:

Just walk away or we get scrubbing bubbles of death busting into Mordor to pave the way for the last Alliance. Just walk away.

[Mladen]

The other members of the Estate aren't so opposed. Priscilla Tolkien (Christopher's younger sister, and Tolkien's only daughter) was very supportive of the Bakshi film back in the 1970s, for example. Simon Tolkien (Christopher's oldest son) visited the film set and has been more pro-Jackson. He was temporarily exiled from the family but later reconciled. However, he now lives in California and is a successful crime novelist, so he's unlikely to be involved. The people most likely to inherit the Estate are either Adam Tolkien (Christopher's second son) or more likely Michael Tolkien, Christopher's nephew and Tolkien's grandson (by one of his older, deceased children). They both tow the party line on the films sucking in public, but once money is on the table and Christopher is no longer around, who knows?

At some point of my life, I will have to write a letter of apology to Christopher for thinking he might be a pompous ass criticizing Jackson. That was before watching BoFA and I finally see what he was talking about all along. It wasn't rambling of a man who wants more money as I thought for some time, but actual care for his father's legacy. I swear to God, this movie was such game-changer for me. I have such a bad feeling in my mouth...

That being said, I am now firm supporter of CT's desires. Enough of it.

[lancerman]

Just saw it last night. Can't help but think the last movie would have been better if they cut out some of the barrel crap and put the opening battle with Smaug at the end of that. Even though it was a fantastic fast opening here.

[Arataniello]

Is quote function broken at the moment?

Anyway, to add to Werthead's post, Royd Tolkien is IN the movies, at least in one of them - he plays a Gondorian soldier with Faramir in Ostgiliath. Royd is a great-grandson of JRRT.

[Shryke]

At some point of my life, I will have to write a letter of apology to Christopher for thinking he might be a pompous ass criticizing Jackson. That was before watching BoFA and I finally see what he was talking about all along. It wasn't rambling of a man who wants more money as I thought for some time, but actual care for his father's legacy. I swear to God, this movie was such game-changer for me. I have such a bad feeling in my mouth...

That being said, I am now firm supporter of CT's desires. Enough of it.

Nah, it's totally the whinging of a purist. The quality of the Hobbit films (or lack there of) is no reflection on the quality of the LOTR films.

[Mladen]

Nah, it's totally the whinging of a purist. The quality of the Hobbit films (or lack there of) is no reflection on the quality of the LOTR films.

Truth about Hobbit not impacting LOTR. But, I feel like Hobbit indeed showed all the bad things CT was talking about. And while, having only LOTR in my mind made CT sound exactly as you said - whining of a purist, with Hobbit movies, well, it made some sense.

[Werthead]

Nah, it's totally the whinging of a purist. The quality of the Hobbit films (or lack there of) is no reflection on the quality of the LOTR films.

I think the key problems with the Hobbit movies - overreliance on effects, too many gooft CGI moments, sidelining of awesome real scenery in favour of CG backdrops and greenscreens, too much Legofuckinglas - can be seen as having their genesis in the LotR movies, particularly RotK. That's where Jackson finally got confident in using CGI for shit-tons of stuff he'd either not have used it before or hadn't considered before the learning curve of the first two movies.

FotR I think is by far the best of the six, and it's also the one with by far the fewest effects shots and the most effective use of real scenery and location filming. Jackson seems to work best when he is up against technological and budget limitations. Given all the resources in the world, he seems to squander them on bullshit moments.

[Shryke]

I think the key problems with the Hobbit movies - overreliance on effects, too many gooft CGI moments, sidelining of awesome real scenery in favour of CG backdrops and greenscreens, too much Legofuckinglas - can be seen as having their genesis in the LotR movies, particularly RotK. That's where Jackson finally got confident in using CGI for shit-tons of stuff he'd either not have used it before or hadn't considered before the learning curve of the first two movies.

FotR I think is by far the best of the six, and it's also the one with by far the fewest effects shots and the most effective use of real scenery and location filming. Jackson seems to work best when he is up against technological and budget limitations. Given all the resources in the world, he seems to squander them on bullshit moments.

Those aren't really the key problems of the Hobbit films. It's bad but there's far bigger problems. I mean, even ROTK has plenty of good effects work. AUJ is a really noticeable step down in terms of film quality.

What you can really see in ROTK that grows to fruition in AUJ is PJ indulging his taste for schlock and silliness a bit more then he had in previous films. It's noticeable in light of the previous films being better about it, especially FOTR. But there's again a huge drop compared to AUJ.

The real problem with the Hobbit films though is not the bad effects (although they do suck), it's that the films are messy, unfocused, bloated and have no control over the tone and pacing. The films schizophrenically veer from serious drama and action to slapstick juvenile video-gamey comedy within the space of minutes and have tons of extraneous bullshit in them.

Ultimately, there's tons to complain about in the Hobbit adaptation but since the complaints in question started back during like FOTR, I can't give the complainer any credit.

[Slurktan]

The real problem with the Hobbit films though is not the bad effects (although they do suck), it's that the films are messy, unfocused, bloated and have no control over the tone and pacing. The films schizophrenically veer from serious drama and action to slapstick juvenile video-gamey comedy within the space of minutes and have tons of extraneous bullshit in them.

Also the lack of any internal logic whatsoever. Just one example being the 4 armored mountain goats with saddles randomly appearing in the midst of a battle so key characters can climb up a hill fast.

[Corvinus85]

Also the lack of any internal logic whatsoever. Just one example being the 4 armored mountain goats with saddles randomly appearing in the midst of a battle so key characters can climb up a hill fast.

This movie definitely suffers from poor editing. One of the trailers showed a bunch of Dain's dwarves charging down a hill on armored goats, so that's where the goats come from, but we'll have to wait for the EE to actually see that.

[Jasta11]

As I see it, the problem is that Jackson was pretty much allowed to run wild with all his crazy CGI ideas and since the movies were such a roaring success, the studio couldn't really say no. So while it didn't show a lot in LOTR because those books naturally have big set piece battles, in The Hobbit it's really jarring because the original book didn't have much fighting until the Battle of the Five Armies where Bilbo doesn't have a prominent role anyway. So he had to shoe-horn in battle or chase sequences that felt very out of place.

I still maintain that the LOTR films are fantastic movies, and very decent as far as Hollywood adaptations go, and nothing will make that go away. But yeah, Jackson jumped the shark with the Hobbit trilogy.

But yes, like others in this thread I got sick and tired of Legolas the Superelf halfway through RotK, and I presume he graces us with his CGI prowess in the third Hobbit movie as well. Ugh.

[The BlackBear]

I just don't get what changed in Jacksons methods. LotR made Weta Workshops, they were made simply because of the scale of practical effects required for the film. They used Miniatures as much as they possibly could, even when they did do digital creatures they were usually sculpted first then scanned in. Why did he decide to throw that all out of the window?