Howland Reed must of used magic at the battle at the Tower of Joy.

[Griffin's Roost]

also Ned didn't bring Ice.

I don't think he fights with it. the thing is freaking huge. I think its just more of a symbol than a useful weapon

[Ser Cold Fingers]

also Ned didn't bring Ice.

I don't think he fights with it. the thing is freaking huge. I think its just more of a symbol than a useful weapon

Dawn & Ice are both greatswords...so approximately the same size. Plus Valyrian Steel is lighter than castle forged steel.

We don't have a clue about Dawn. Only small tidbits.

[Shadow Cat 75]

I wouldn't say it was Howland who used magic but they had magic on their side, I think that Dawn is Lightbringer and when Jon was born it began to burn and it stunned Sir Dayne and Nedd blinding both of them. With them blind it gave an opening for Howland to deliver the final blow to end the fight.

[Shpati]

Magic? Not likely but still possible imo. Trickery? Definitely.

It's not worth arguing over. We'll find out in due course.

If we did this, this forum would be dead lol.

[Ser Duncan The Average]

It could have been magic I suppose, but to be fair it could just as easily have been a crossbow. :lol:

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

An unknown nobody, going by the name Bronn, completely pwned famous Ser Vardis Egen. No magic involved. And that was one on one, not seven versus three. Anyone can be killed, there are no invincible swordsmen. I see no reason to assume any supernatural factor in the fight in the Tower of Joy.

[Fitzochris01]

Bronn is a skilled and tactically astute swordsman, though. Put Tyrion against Ser Vardis and the same result would not have been forthcoming.

Personally, I see no reason why Howland couldn't have survived using net and spear, but, given the company he was up against, some form of other trickery is not out of the question.

[Ser Greenseer]

I don't think there is any reason to assume Howland must of used magic. Howland could have just tripped Arthur with a net and then Ned killed him with Ice or some other way.

[Dmerle]

I think he used some sort of bizarre technique, it's that line Ned had about dieing if it wasn't for Howland Reed, I think if it was just a matter of defeating them in combat then he would of mentioned the other people with him as well.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How else could he, Ned and a couple of other men defeat 3 of the finest Kingsguard ever known in the seven kingdoms??? All the other men died but Eddard and Howland survived? How could The Sword of the Morning fall just like that?

In was 7vs3. The 7 were always likely to win. Hightower had been LC for a long time and we have no idea how old Whent was. Kingsguard members serve for life and it is more than possible that both Whent and Hightower were past their prime. The fact that the three were still able to kill five of their assailants is impressive.

Not sure why magic has to have been used.

[Fitzochris01]

In was 7vs3. The 7 were always likely to win. Hightower had been LC for a long time and we have no idea how old Whent was. Kingsguard members serve for life and it is more than possible that both Whent and Hightower were past their prime. The fact that the three were still able to kill five of their assailants is impressive.

Not sure why magic has to have been used.

I think it's more because Ned uses the line "if it were not for Howland Reed". We know Crannogmen not to be particularly formidable in square-on combat, so I guess that is why the question of magic or trickery has been raised.

[packfan2able]

An unknown nobody, going by the name Bronn, completely pwned famous Ser Vardis Egen. No magic involved. And that was one on one, not seven versus three. Anyone can be killed, there are no invincible swordsmen. I see no reason to assume any supernatural factor in the fight in the Tower of Joy.

Addin on to this thought, everyone has a bad day. Just look at our present day atheletes, even the greatest ones can have games when their off. Now granted, the KG were fighting for more than just a game and theres a natural adrenaline rush when your life is on the line, but this only limits the amount of times when they could put up a "poor performance" so to speak.

My guess is that Arthur Dayne didn't show up in this fight, plain and simple. Yes the odds weren't in their favor and even if they were fighting at their best they still probably would've lost. But, isn't their a mention of Howland Reed being a below-average swordsman? I think it would be very much like GRRM to have Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, slain by a sub-par fighter because he had an "off night"

[Lord Sapna]

How else could he, Ned and a couple of other men defeat 3 of the finest Kingsguard ever known in the seven kingdoms??? All the other men died but Eddard and Howland survived? How could The Sword of the Morning fall just like that?

Do you watch football? (I'm talking about soccer for all you Americans out there.) occasionally world class teams with famous players that earn hundreds of thousands each week, will have a game in which a very average team beats them 11 on 11. No magic involved.

So seven vs three.

Three experienced swords men one exceptional one.

Seven skilled and experienced warriors.

Yeah Kingsgaurd going down.

Howland probably fought swordsmen regularly with net and spear. Arthur Dayne is used to fighting men with swords or axes. Giving howland another advantage.

[Bryanfury]

I think it's more because Ned uses the line "if it were not for Howland Reed". We know Crannogmen not to be particularly formidable in square-on combat, so I guess that is why the question of magic or trickery has been raised.

Actually, we know that a teenage Crannog girl was able to trap a wargs direwolf with a net. What other person in the series has taken on a direwolf one on one and come off the better for it? We are also shown how horrendously effective the Crannogs poisons are at Moat Cailin. These two little tidbits tell us that an unconventional fighting style doesn't mean the Crannogs aren't deadly as fuck. I have no doubt that Ned and Howland could take Dayne down together without magic if Howland fights anything like Meera does.

[Bryanfury]

Do you watch football? (I'm talking about soccer for all you Americans out there.) occasionally world class teams with famous players that earn hundreds of thousands each week, will have a game in which a very average team beats them 11 on 11. No magic involved.

Heh, like my hometown club, Auckland FC, who are an amateur team yet played superbly well against professional clubs in the club world cup.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I think it's more because Ned uses the line "if it were not for Howland Reed". We know Crannogmen not to be particularly formidable in square-on combat, so I guess that is why the question of magic or trickery has been raised.

Well, yeah, 6 vs 3 and Dayne may have been the last man standing. Howland did make the difference, had he died and Lord Dustin survived then Ned would be thinking the same about him.

[Fitzochris01]

Actually, we know that a teenage Crannog girl was able to trap a wargs direwolf with a net. What other person in the series has taken on a direwolf one on one and come off the better for it? We are also shown how horrendously effective the Crannogs poisons are at Moat Cailin. These two little tidbits tell us that an unconventional fighting style doesn't mean the Crannogs aren't deadly as fuck. I have no doubt that Ned and Howland could take Dayne down together without magic if Howland fights anything like Meera does.

This is true and is why I previously said Howland could have flourished with net and spear alone. However, the Crannogmen are more suited to guerrilla warfare (Moat Cailin) rather than a square go. I'm just saying, given the opposition, I wouldn't be surprised if Howland saved Ned by other means.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Actually, we know that a teenage Crannog girl was able to trap a wargs direwolf with a net. What other person in the series has taken on a direwolf one on one and come off the better for it? We are also shown how horrendously effective the Crannogs poisons are at Moat Cailin. These two little tidbits tell us that an unconventional fighting style doesn't mean the Crannogs aren't deadly as fuck. I have no doubt that Ned and Howland could take Dayne down together without magic if Howland fights anything like Meera does.

^^^ Exactly ^^^ I don't think magic was involved. It was probably unconventional, but not magical.

[Bryanfury]

This is true and is why I previously said Howland could have flourished with net and spear alone. However, the Crannogmen are more suited to guerrilla warfare (Moat Cailin) rather than a square go. I'm just saying, given the opposition, I wouldn't be surprised if Howland saved Ned by other means.

And I'm saying GRRM put in Meera taking on Summer in a "square go" and trapping him for a reason.

[Fitzochris01]

Okay. And I'm saying that if it's revealed Howland sorted out Dayne in the same way, I wouldn't be surprised. Equally, if it is revealed he used some other method, I wouldn't be surprised either. Both Jojen and Meera have demonstrated different strengths of the Crannogmen. It really isn't worth fussing over too much.