How exactly did Rhaegar lose to Robert Baratheon?

[Nittanian]

So Spake Martin:

Warriors and Knights: he told me that he was sort of fed up when people wrote to him asking "who's the strongest fighter? Who's the best? Etc." He explained to me that there are some very strong fighters, he only mentioned 3: the 2 Cleganes and Loras.... ;) however, he could not conceive how people could wonder who was the best in a fight, battle or duel.... it just depends in the day, and everything... a fight is part strength and skill, but outside factors weigh much more that those 2.

[Bryanfury]

Robert would have caved in anybodys chest that day at the Trident. I would have loved to see Robert smash Oswell Whent off his high horse and ride off while Whent sputters "Woe to the usurper" for the last time.

[jon stark I]

People forget that Rhaegar had probably never fought an honest battle for all his life.Barristan kind of admits about letting him win in tourneys.And unlike Robert who has been fighting constantly for like a year Rhaegar was inexprienced and he was probably a little shocked of all the intensity.Aside from exprience Robert was fighting with a huge, heavy warhammer that noone could lift and with Roberts power one strike was enough to end it.Rhaegar probably got a few clean strikes we don't know if Robert had wounds before their fight if he did then we can't know if Rhaegar was as good as everyone thinks, but if they faced each other from the start then it means they were equal in training but he wasn't as motivated ot strong as Robert.

[Nictarion]

Seriously I wonder what Rhaegar was doing there in the first place. Robert was a giant covered in iron. He was stupid enough to be in the thick of the battlefield. I bet he could be spotted yards away. FFS send a couple of crossbowmen and get rid of him once and for all.

Kind of goes along with Jorah's saying about Rhaegar.

[Bronn Urgandy]

He lost because Robert was a Human juggernaught, the big guy should've made it to the Tower of Joy, there would've been less casualties on team Ned that's for sure.

[Nictarion]

How is Robert a "real man"? What makes Robert a real man? Being good at arms?

http://coub.com/view/rwdi

[TheRevanchist]

Well, Robert was pretty good at fighting too. Doesn't Ned says something like he fought with a hammer that Ned could barely lift (or it is my imagination?). I think that he was described as one of the finest warriors, and Ned said that Robert was much better than Ned (despite that Ned was good too). I probably wouldn't go as far as to put Robert on the same category as Arthur and Barristan but he was just below them (as was Rhaegar).

Obviously, doing well in the tournies and fighting isn't the same thing. Jorah defeated Jaime and IIRC so did the Hound. Neither of them (especially not) Jorah weren't as good as Jaime.

[Ser Meryn Frey]

How is Robert a "real man"? What makes Robert a real man? Being good at arms?

Making "the eight".

[Bronn Urgandy]

As to Robert vs "the elite". Well, Arthur and Barristan fought with swords, and that is so much more romantic than the guy who bludgeons his foes to death, so of course they are going to get heaping praise, swordsmen are the pure boxers and artists of the battle world, the guy with the warhammer is little more than a very good killer/fighter. I wouldn't bet against the very good killer.

[TheRevanchist]

As to Robert vs "the elite". Well, Arthur and Barristan fought with swords, and that is so much more romantic than the guy who bludgeons his foes to death, so of course they are going to get heaping praise, swordsmen are the pure boxers of the battle world, the guy with the warhammer is little more than a very good killer/fighter. I wouldn't bet against the very good killer.

On a good day, I think that Robert could have defeated Barristan and give a very good match to Arthur. While they were brilliant, a pissed off Robert was damn good too. And anyone could make a mistake, even Barristan.

Arthur on the other hand would have most likely win all the times, because he was described pretty much as the perfect warrior.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

http://coub.com/view/rwdi

lol,

Making "the eight".

That's something I don't like about the comparisons between Robert and Rhaegar. Personally, those are a bit sexist. If someone says that Arya is more of a woman than Sansa because she's a warrior, shenanigans would ensue. Ditto if someone uses sexuality as a way to measure who is more a women between two adult female characters. I never like this neo-culture of the bros... "yeah, we fuck and smash... we're awesome, we're maaaan". I like masculine men as any other would and delicate guys kill my mood, but being a masculine man doesn't make a man either. It's like the fact Rhaegar was more a scholar and a musician make him less than Robert. Robert fucked everything that moves, so he's more of a men.

Or maybe is because Robert participated in tourneys. Robert angry, Robert smashes. Maybe Rhaegar didn't participate because he knew that some would let him win or worst, some other would praise him even if he ended up in last place. Robert didn't mind as long as he could smash some skulls and be applauded for that. Maybe Rhaegar practised quietly in Dragonstone with Arthur Dayne or some other knight of the KG.

Yes, Robert won and killed Rhaegar but if we consider all we know about them, without any speculations, Rhaegar was the real man while Robert was the boy. Even when they both eventually cheated (technically), Rhaegar didn't let a bunch of kids all over Westeros who probably never got to live three years because they starved. His own children died after he himself was defeated and killed.

[Lee-Sensei]

lol,

That's something I don't like about the comparisons between Robert and Rhaegar. Personally, those are a bit sexist. If someone says that Arya is more of a woman than Sansa because she's a warrior, shenanigans would ensue. Ditto if someone uses sexuality as a way to measure who is more a women between two adult female characters. I never like this neo-culture of the bros... "yeah, we fuck and smash... we're awesome, we're maaaan". I like masculine men as any other would and delicate guys kill my mood, but being a masculine man doesn't make a man either. It's like the fact Rhaegar was more a scholar and a musician make him less than Robert. Robert fucked everything that moves, so he's more of a men.

Or maybe is because Robert participated in tourneys. Robert angry, Robert smashes. Maybe Rhaegar didn't participate because he knew that some would let him win or worst, some other would praise him even if he ended up in last place. Robert didn't mind as long as he could smash some skulls and be applauded for that. Maybe Rhaegar practised quietly in Dragonstone with Arthur Dayne or some other knight of the KG.

Yes, Robert won and killed Rhaegar but if we consider all we know about them, without any speculations, Rhaegar was the real man while Robert was the boy. Even when they both eventually cheated (technically), Rhaegar didn't let a bunch of kids all over Westeros who probably never got to live three years because they starved. His own children died after he himself was defeated and killed.

Rhaegar as the man who abandoned his wife and kids to shack up with another girl and brought do w n his dynasty.

[Salafi Stannis]

Wasn't Rhaegar considered one the best fighters alongside Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy?

He managed to defeat them both at the Tourney of Harrenhal, so how did Robert manage to kill Rhaegar one on one?

Ahahahahahahahaha! :lmao:

[The Stannimal]

Rheagar was a student of war. Robert was a warrior, huge difference.

Precisely, a joust you won a few years ago won't mean a thing when a 6'6 bear-human hybrid is charging at you with a Warhammer.

[HexMachina]

Making "the eight".

Sleeping with lots of people makes someone a 'real man'? Okay then...

I feel like I am in a cheesy college movie

[Salafi Stannis]

How is Robert a "real man"? What makes Robert a real man? Being good at arms?

I think they are referring to how young Robert was seen as the height of masculinity , i.e. being incredibly strong, good at fighting, sleeping with lots of women, being tough, gruff, loud, hairy/bearded etc, but I know you know that's what they meant.

[mdw4950]

Well, Robert was pretty good at fighting too. Doesn't Ned says something like he fought with a hammer that Ned could barely lift (or it is my imagination?). I think that he was described as one of the finest warriors, and Ned said that Robert was much better than Ned (despite that Ned was good too). I probably wouldn't go as far as to put Robert on the same category as Arthur and Barristan but he was just below them (as was Rhaegar).

Obviously, doing well in the tournies and fighting isn't the same thing. Jorah defeated Jaime and IIRC so did the Hound. Neither of them (especially not) Jorah weren't as good as Jaime.

the quote about roberts hammer gets taken too literally. ned means that he could barely use it in a fight. its not like robert was riding around swinging this 300 pound hammer. so ya, its definitely too heavy for most people to use and successfully defend themselves with but its not like no one could literally lift it.

neds not a bad fighter by any means, but hes definitely not one of the top guys either. thats a huge topic on these forums since ned was considered more of a battle commander but the show gave him a huge boost and put him on par with jaime. robert was hands down the better fighter of he and ned though.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar as the man how abandoned his wife and kids to shack up with another girl and brought do w n his dynasty.

He didn't abandon them.

Abandon, is when Robert fucked women here and there and never got responsible for the kids he also helped to procreated and blamed those women for not having more common sense instead of, you know, the one who was 36 years old and should have the common sense. Oberyn returned for his bastards. Hyle Hunt, who is nothing but some minor penniless knight also tried to take care of his girl. Even Bolton, who is nothing but scum and a cold s.o.b. at least gave the woman he raped some money and send food so his child wouldn't starve to die.

And yes, Rhaegar cheated. He's not the first man, fictional or real who cheats his wife. But he didn't leave Elia in the middle of the streets with two kids because he replaced her for some younger ass. Elia was safe and protected in a fortress, who was also a freaking island, with men and proper care for her and the children. And Rhaegar remained next to his pregnant wife until Aegon was born and he then, left to whatever he left for. And later, he also remained next to his also pregnant mistress/lover/second wife until it was needed for him to leave and fight who is way more than what Robert ever did, like actually going to hunt while Cersei was giving birth to his children because he never gave a fuck.

And he didn't bring down his dynasty. It was not Rhaegar the one who burnt Lords and wanted to set a whole city in fire. Man other princes and Kings have gotten himself with inconvenient mistress and no war was ever declared because there was no mad king in the equation.

[marsyao]

Just because he's a skilled jouster doesn't mean he can't be beaten in an actual battle. Jaime Lannister's supposed to be one of the greatest swordsmans but Ned was beating him

When and where ?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Like so.

:owned: