R+L=J v.121

[Alia of the knife]

I sure do love endlessly arguing with people who bend, twist and ignore the text to suit their own purpose.

Agreed.

[Alia of the knife]

Before R + L = J

there was R + L

http://i.imgur.com/HbfyXJ2.jpg

And Elric of Melnibone

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/115/0/4/Elric_of_Melnibone_by_Punisher75.jpg

[Alia of the knife]

Yes but she wasn't "HIS" Lady Lyanna

Yes.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes but she wasn't "HIS" Lady Lyanna

Yes.

[markg171]

1. Welcome to the forums and RLJ!

2. That is Ned's response but it is also followed by, "he is my blood" (but not.."son") and Cat thinks about how whoever she was, Ned must have loved Jon's mother a lot...yet the only women he thinks about (except Cat) is Lyanna and in Ned 1 we learn that Ned loved Lyanna with all this heart.

3. The broken promise is still a mystery, but most people think it's telling Jon who he is (the son of R and L) and maybe that he is not a bastard at all (if RL were married)

First off, I have no idea why people on here try and portray this myth that Ned never called Jon his son. It's literally in the first couple of pages:

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them. He waved and shouted down at them. "Father, Bran, come quickly, see what Robb has found!" Then he was gone again.

Jory rode up beside them. "Trouble, my lord?"

"Beyond a doubt," his lord father answered. "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now." He sent his horse into a trot. Jory and Bran and the rest came after.

They found Robb on the riverbank north of the bridge, with Jon still mounted beside him.

- AGOT, Bran I

Secondly, you mention that Ned loved her with all his heart, but conveniently fail to mention that the very next line is

Robert had loved her even more.

- AGOT, Eddard I

Eddard acknowledges that Robert loved her more than he did.

[Eira Seren]

Yes.

Off topic I realize but I can't send a pm for some reason. Did u listen to the radio Westeros long night Podcast? Do u think that dawn is an other blade, captured by the last hero - a dayne- when they ended the long night?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

First off, I have no idea why people on here try and portray this myth that Ned never called Jon his son. It's literally in the first couple of pages:

- AGOT, Bran I

Bran is Ned´s son, too.

He did in fact not "literally call" Jon his son in the quote you have cited. I am sorry.

eta: but Bran is riding with him, so he was not meant. so here you are right, he calls Robb and Jon my sons. GRRM would have had an easy time having Ned call them "my boys", but did not.

[srini]

I placed my analysis of Jon Snow's parentage in another forum, but i was told to place it here.

Jon Snow's parentage remains a mystery and great interest among the fans.There are lot of analysis on Jon's parentage and its significance. So I want to share my own analysis under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". Let me make it clear this is an assumption, there is clear evidence in the Books one-way or another.

Jon Snow is generally accepted that to have been born somewhere in the South towards the end of Robert's Rebellion, within one month, give or take, of the Sack of King's Landing and closely related the House Stark.

Since Robert's Rebellion lasted "close to a year", So time of conception was after the start of the Rebellion.

Since Jon is closely related to Starks, that is he is half-stark. Other than Eddard, there were two members of the House Starks alive at this time of Rebellion - Benjen Stark and Lyanna Stark.

Benjen Stark was up north throughout the Rebellion, so he can be safely excluded as Jon's Father.

So we can safely conclude that Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". If so there is only one candidate for Jon's father - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Lyanna Stark was under the "custody" of Rhaegar Targaryen throughout the Rebellion, but the nature of this "custody" is unclear.

So we can safely conclude under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father", Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen. But it is unclear if Jon is trueborn or naturalborn.

Furthermore, we can conclude that Eddard Stark was involved in a very successful and active cover-up using deception that Jon is his naturalborn son. I say very successful because no-one in Westroes, who knows or even suspect that "Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen". But the question is why?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

But the question is why?

Why what?

Why nobody knows? Well, Chekhovs Crannogman Howland Reed knows and Benjen Stark may know given he lives to tell and Brynden Rivers may know it, too (and if he does, so may Bran). Wylla, the wetnurse may know if she lives to tell. Why nobody else knows? They all died, and Ned did not tell anybody else.

Why did he cover it up? Because he promised to Lyanna.

eta: Welcome to R+L=J, @srini!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

We don't know what Ned promised Lyanna yet, so it very well could have been something he never fulfilled. Perhaps she asked him to tell Jon who his parents were...perhaps something else.

Actually we do know pretty well Ned promised to keep Jon safe.

What we don't know is what else he might have promised.

As BQ suggested to tell him the nature of his parentage when comes of age or some such maybe.

Or as I think that Lyanna told the unbelieving Ned about the prophecy and Jon being TPTWP, again, maybe.

[BearQueen87]

First off, I have no idea why people on here try and portray this myth that Ned never called Jon his son. It's literally in the first couple of pages:

Secondly, you mention that Ned loved her with all his heart, but conveniently fail to mention that the very next line is

Eddard acknowledges that Robert loved her more than he did.

1. I never said that Ned never called Jon his son. I said that in his own private, internal, more truthful thougts...he never calls Jon his son. Outloud..of course he does! What else is he going to say in that quote you gave? "Let's go see what my sons and nephew, son of my dead sister and a Targ prince, have rooted out for us!" But not to CAT---that's the important part.

2. Uh...no? I has no bearing on the conversation. Who cares what Robert felt? What does that have to do with anything right now?

I placed my analysis of Jon Snow's parentage in another forum, but i was told to place it here.

Jon Snow's parentage remains a mystery and great interest among the fans.There are lot of analysis on Jon's parentage and its significance. So I want to share my own analysis under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". Let me make it clear this is an assumption, there is clear evidence in the Books one-way or another.

Jon Snow is generally accepted that to have been born somewhere in the South towards the end of Robert's Rebellion, within one month, give or take, of the Sack of King's Landing and closely related the House Stark.

Since Robert's Rebellion lasted "close to a year", So time of conception was after the start of the Rebellion.

Since Jon is closely related to Starks, that is he is half-stark. Other than Eddard, there were two members of the House Starks alive at this time of Rebellion - Benjen Stark and Lyanna Stark.

Benjen Stark was up north throughout the Rebellion, so he can be safely excluded as Jon's Father.

So we can safely conclude that Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father". If so there is only one candidate for Jon's father - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Lyanna Stark was under the "custody" of Rhaegar Targaryen throughout the Rebellion, but the nature of this "custody" is unclear.

So we can safely conclude under the assumption that "Eddard Stark is not Jon Snow's father", Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen. But it is unclear if Jon is trueborn or naturalborn.

Furthermore, we can conclude that Eddard Stark was involved in a very successful and active cover-up using deception that Jon is his naturalborn son. I say very successful because no-one in Westroes, who knows or even suspect that "Jon is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen". But the question is why?

Why doesn't Westeros know? Because Ned Stark is so honorable that if he says Jon is his, the lords aren't going question it. But we, the readers have a nice look into Ned's mind as GRRM laid all the clues for RLJ.

Welcome to RLJ!

Actually we do know pretty well Ned promised to keep Jon safe.

What we don't know is what else he might have promised.

As BQ suggested to tell him the nature of his parentage when comes of age or some such maybe.

Or as I think that Lyanna told the unbelieving Ned about the prophecy and Jon being TPTWP, again, maybe.

Yeah, I'm curious as to how much R told L about all that.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Yeah, I'm curious as to how much R told L about all that.

He told her all about it ;-), why would he not?

[BearQueen87]

He told her all about it ;-), why would he not?

I tend to agree that R told L pretty much everything (much like he discussed it all with Elia). I just wonder if L was in the state of mind to tell Ned. "This is baby Aemon. He's going to save the world someday. No, I wasn't raped. Oh and I totally go married. Promise me, Ned..."

[Mithras]

Speaking of Elric, George borrowed a lot from the Eternal Champion idea of Moorcock. In TWOIAF, we see a lot of different names for AA one of which is Eldric the Shadowchaser. Hyrkoon is an obvious reference to Yyrkoon. The cursed sword Stormbringer becomes the Lightbringer.

I lately think that there is some connection between

· the blocking of the sun during the LN

· the legend about dragons drinking the sun to breathe flame

· Asshai and HotU having stones that drink the sunlight

· dragons being unnatural creations

· dragons being “fire made flesh” (like the shadow assassin being “life-fire made shadow”)

I think the great shadow/blood magic to create dragons in Asshai resulted in the blocking of the sun and it created the necessary conditions for the ice dragons/Others thrive. That was the reason of the messed up seasons starting with the LN. In order to restore the balance, I think the dragons need to die.

[BearQueen87]

Speaking of Elric, George borrowed a lot from the Eternal Champion idea of Moorcock. In TWOIAF, we see a lot of different names for AA one of which is Eldric the Shadowchaser. Hyrkoon is an obvious reference to Yyrkoon. The cursed sword Stormbringer becomes the Lightbringer.

I lately think that there is some connection between

· the blocking of the sun during the LN

· the legend about dragons drinking the sun to breathe flame

· Asshai and HotU having stones that drink the sunlight

· dragons being unnatural creations

· dragons being “fire made flesh” (like the shadow assassin being “life-fire made shadow”)

I think the great shadow/blood magic to create dragons in Asshai resulted in the blocking of the sun and it created the necessary conditions for the ice dragons/Others thrive. That was the reason of the messed up seasons starting with the LN. In order to restore the balance, I think the dragons need to die.

Are you going to fall out of your chair if I say I agree? For balance to restored, both fire and ice have to lose their magic/magical weapons/ect.

As for Stormbringer = Lightbringer...I somewhat agree. There are a lot of vital difference (if we take Lightbringer = Dawn = real sword originally). Stormbringer is jet black, created by Chaos, is actually a demon-in-sword-clothing, and really likes souls of humans. It also doesn't exactly have a happy symbiotic relationship with Elric (and if LB = Jon+Dragon then it needs to be a more happy relationship). Now if you want to Lightbringer is the inverse of Stormbringer...that might ring a bit more true.

I'll leave the whole "eternal champion" thing for another day because we're agreeing on things. ;)

Oh, ETA: Wonky seasons...I think something else happened that caused the wonky seasons that led to the LN. I know there was some thought that there really once were two moons in the sky and humans "did a thing" and broke a moon (moron humans!) and that's what caused a planetary shift that led to the wonky seasons. Jon's roll then is to shift the world back. I don't think it's just Asshai. I think Asshai was ground zero...but actually, there might be two ground zeros (balance in all things, yes?) The heart of winter is looking rather suspicious as well

[sj4iy]

Actually we do know pretty well Ned promised to keep Jon safe.

What we don't know is what else he might have promised.

As BQ suggested to tell him the nature of his parentage when comes of age or some such maybe.

Or as I think that Lyanna told the unbelieving Ned about the prophecy and Jon being TPTWP, again, maybe.

Yes, but Ned did raise him and keep him safe, so it had to be something else.

[sj4iy]

I also agree that magic will need to disappear to restore balance to the world.

[Mithras]

Are you going to fall out of your chair if I say I agree? For balance to restored, both fire and ice have to lose their magic/magical weapons/ect.

As for Stormbringer = Lightbringer...I somewhat agree. There are a lot of vital difference (if we take Lightbringer = Dawn = real sword originally). Stormbringer is jet black, created by Chaos, is actually a demon-in-sword-clothing, and really likes souls of humans. It also doesn't exactly have a happy symbiotic relationship with Elric (and if LB = Jon+Dragon then it needs to be a more happy relationship). Now if you want to Lightbringer is the inverse of Stormbringer...that might ring a bit more true.

I'll leave the whole "eternal champion" thing for another day because we're agreeing on things. ;)

Fallen skinchangers like Varamyr lose their souls to the wild beasts. So, in a way, the wild beast steals the soul of the skinchanger. A dragon is more likely to steal the soul of a weak person bonded to itself. Dragon/Lightbringer vs. Stormbringer is not so opposites to each other. Dragons are fire (and possibly shadow) made flesh. Demons are creatures of fire and smoke (in most myths).

I think all the people who will bond with the dragons are in danger. It is literally the human heart in conflict. Will they be able to preserve their human virtues or lose themselves and turn into "terrible evil beasts" as Irri said?

I think the final scene of the restoration will be Jon skinchanging into Drogon (the last dragon) and crash landing it into the heart of winter like kamikaze.

[MtnLion]

There is absolutely no chance of Aegon being at the tower. Jaime was guarding Aegon at the Red Keep, and Jaime knows that Aegon is dead, dead, dead.

[BearQueen87]

1. Fallen skinchangers like Varamyr lose their souls to the wild beasts. So, in a way, the wild beast steals the soul of the skinchanger. A dragon is more likely to steal the soul of a weak person bonded to itself. Dragon/Lightbringer vs. Stormbringer is not so opposites to each other. Dragons are fire (and possibly shadow) made flesh. Demons are creatures of fire and smoke (in most myths).

I think all the people who will bond with the dragons are in danger. It is literally the human heart in conflict. Will they be able to preserve their human virtues or lose themselves and turn into "terrible evil beasts" as Irri said?

2. I think the final scene of the restoration will be Jon skinchanging into Drogon (the last dragon) and crash landing it into the heart of winter like kamikaze.

1. Oh, that's a good point I hadn't thought of before. Hm. Must think more. (though, I still think that a lot of what GRRM is undoing a lot of Moorcock and there are a lot of inversion his ideas in ASOIAF)

2. Wouldn't that kill Jon? I know you and I both think he'll be King of Westeros/whatever the frack is left by series end...?

There is absolutely no chance of Aegon being at the tower. Jaime was guarding Aegon at the Red Keep, and Jaime knows that Aegon is dead, dead, dead.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.