Howland Reed (NOT High Septon related)

[ironBanker]

I just realized the following discrepancy:

Howland Reed, the father of Meera & Jojen, is mentioned twice in the backstory:

At the tournament, a bunch of squires threaten to beat him up. He has to be rescued by a girl. This is as low as you can get on the effectiveness-as-a-knight-scale.

Then a year later, he defeats the best swordfighter of the known world in single combat. (Who was wearing the best armor money can buy and wielding a magical sword).

WTF happened here?

Did Howland just pretend to be scared by those boys?

Or did he just get VERY lucky against Arthur Dayne? (Unlikely, since this is a heroic fantasy. Rhaegar was directly killed by Robert, and not by random archer #716)

[First of the First Men]

HR may have restrained himself when meeting the squires. I remember he was a complete stranger at the tourney.

He might have been unarmed too.

[Salafi Stannis]

I believe that Howland used magic/trickery to distract Arthur so Ned could kill him.

[Mladen]

I have to say I laughed at your thread title... And then it made me sad that we actually need to emphasize that we are not speaking about that.

I don't believe Howland got lucky that much, but I believe that he used the fishnet as a weapon and it can be effective against the knight such as Arthur. We can't also discount arrows. At the Ned same time, we know what Ned said, but we have no idea who killed Arthur whether it was Ned or Howland. Howland might have just distracted Arthur long enough for Ned to kill him or Howland indeed could have, against all odds, killed Howland on his own. We have Tyrion surviving battle after battle so who knows...

[Lykos]

Howland is not a knight and doesn't care fore patriarchal concepts. Ned remembers that Howland as the reason for Arthur not killing him, this might have been achieved in a number of different ways. I don't believe that Howland defeated Arthur Dayne in a fight.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

There was another instance when three knights of the KG fought a force of seven opponents, yet were unable to achieve victory.

In THK, at the Trial of Seven at Ashford, Maekar orders three knights of the KG (Ser Roland Crakehall, Ser Willem Wylde, Ser Donnel of Duskendale) to fight with him against Dunk's group. Dunk can only find five companions to fight with him, and thus faces disqualification. At the last moment, Maekar's elder brother Baelor Breakspear joins Dunk.

This turns out to be a major tactical disadvantage for Maekar's side. The KG knights are sworn to protect, not harm members of the royal family. Thus, they can only defend themselves if Baelor attacks them; they can't strike back. Baelor instructs the other members of Dunk's team to keep everyone else off his back while he deals with the KG with impunity. Dunk and Aerion, of course, fight each other. Dunk defeats Aerion, but even as that happens Baelor's strategy works. Dunk's side lost two men, but two KG knights went down while the third carried away one of his his wounded companions. Two Fossoways fought to a draw, Daeron the Drunken took a dive, and Maekar was getting double-teamed by Baelor and the Laughing Storm when Aerion yielded to Dunk.

There might be some parallels between the two instances. See below.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I believe that Howland used magic/trickery to distract Arthur so Ned could kill him.

Same.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe Howland Reed practised.

Or maybe he simply was always good but shy. And he didn't fight Arthur but just distracted him enough until Ned was safe and could fight again. Who knows. But I doubt he used magic. I don't believe Ned would consider it "honourable".

I have to say I laughed at your thread title... And then it made me sad that we actually need to emphasize that we are not speaking about that.

IKR? :lol:

[HowlandReed'sWorth]

IIRC Ned never said Howland Reed killed Arthur Dayne just that he was saved from him because of Howland. That leaves the whole thing pretty open ended

[Light a wight tonight]

At the tournament, a bunch of squires threaten to beat him up. He has to be rescued by a girl. This is as low as you can get on the effectiveness-as-a-knight-scale.

Then a year later, he defeats the best swordfighter of the known world in single combat. (Who was wearing the best armor money can buy and wielding a magical sword).

I think you're misreading the text. There is little said about the battle at the Tower of Joy, and Ned only reflects that Howland saved him not that he defeated Dayne in single combat. There's even a crackpot theory that Howland negotiated a truce and that Dayne is hanging out in Howland's swamp.

[Mladen]

There was another instance when three knights of the KG fought a force of seven opponents, yet were unable to achieve victory.

In THK, at the Trial of Seven at Ashford, Maekar orders three knights of the KG (Ser Roland Crakehall, Ser Willem Wylde, Ser Donnel of Duskendale) to fight with him against Dunk's group. Dunk can only find five companions to fight with him, and thus faces disqualification. At the last moment, Maekar's elder brother Baelor Breakspear joins Dunk.

This turns out to be a major tactical disadvantage for Maekar's side. The KG knights are sworn to protect, not harm members of the royal family. Thus, they can only defend themselves if Baelor attacks them; they can't strike back. Baelor instructs the other members of Dunk's team to keep everyone else off his back while he deals with the KG with impunity. Dunk and Aerion, of course, fight each other. Dunk defeats Aerion, but even as that happens Baelor's strategy works. Dunk's side lost two men, but two KG knights went down while the third carried away one of his his wounded companions. Two Fossoways fought to a draw, Daeron the Drunken took a dive, and Maekar was getting double-teamed by Baelor and the Laughing Storm when Aerion yielded to Dunk.

There might be some parallels between the two instances. See below.

Even though the theory might be true, it isn't some well established fact. So, the comparison with THK is wrong. Three KIngsguards knew that Baelor was a Targ... Hightower, Dayne and Whent would haven't had that knowledge.

[Mithras]

The crannogmen are not known for their chivalry. They resort to poisons and guerilla warfare.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Even though the theory might be true, it isn't some well established fact. So, the comparison with THK is wrong. Three KIngsguards knew that Baelor was a Targ... Hightower, Dayne and Whent would haven't had that knowledge.

Duncan the Small died in 259. Neither he nor Jenny's identity would not have been a secret. The ToJ fight took place in 283. Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were all probably old enough to know the story. Heck, Barristan Selmy knew Duncan and Jenny personally, and Hightower was no doubt older than him.

[Mladen]

Duncan the Small died in 259. Neither he nor Jenny's identity would not have been a secret. The ToJ fight took place in 283. Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were all probably old enough to know the story. Heck, Barristan Selmy knew Duncan and Jenny personally, and Hightower was no doubt older than him.

Dayne and Whent would be old enough to know the story, but not the possible secret child. I n that scenario Hightower perhaps knew, but at the end, it wasn't him who crossed weapons with Howland, it was Arthur. It doesn't make much sense to me.

[unitron]

There was another instance when three knights of the KG fought a force of seven opponents, yet were unable to achieve victory.

In THK, at the Trial of Seven at Ashford, Maekar orders three knights of the KG (Ser Roland Crakehall, Ser Willem Wylde, Ser Donnel of Duskendale) to fight with him against Dunk's group. Dunk can only find five companions to fight with him, and thus faces disqualification. At the last moment, Maekar's elder brother Baelor Breakspear joins Dunk.

This turns out to be a major tactical disadvantage for Maekar's side. The KG knights are sworn to protect, not harm members of the royal family. Thus, they can only defend themselves if Baelor attacks them; they can't strike back. Baelor instructs the other members of Dunk's team to keep everyone else off his back while he deals with the KG with impunity. Dunk and Aerion, of course, fight each other. Dunk defeats Aerion, but even as that happens Baelor's strategy works. Dunk's side lost two men, but two KG knights went down while the third carried away one of his his wounded companions. Two Fossoways fought to a draw, Daeron the Drunken took a dive, and Maekar was getting double-teamed by Baelor and the Laughing Storm when Aerion yielded to Dunk.

There might be some parallels between the two instances. See below.

In one of Jaime's musings the point is made that technically the KG are only sworn to protect the king himself, and extension of the protection to any others is dependent on the king ordering it.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Dayne and Whent would be old enough to know the story, but not the possible secret child. I n that scenario Hightower perhaps knew, but at the end, it wasn't him who crossed weapons with Howland, it was Arthur. It doesn't make much sense to me.

There's no reason for any of Duncan and Jenny's children to be secret. If they exist, they're simply ignored because they are not part of the succession (whatever measures that were taken to cut them off were/are considered effective) and they've stayed out of the way at Greywater Watch.

In one of Jaime's musings the point is made that technically the KG are only sworn to protect the king himself, and extension of the protection to any others is dependent on the king ordering it.

Rhaegar seems to have given them some extended orders, which are still in effect.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I just realized the following discrepancy:

Howland Reed, the father of Meera & Jojen, is mentioned twice in the backstory:

At the tournament, a bunch of squires threaten to beat him up. He has to be rescued by a girl. This is as low as you can get on the effectiveness-as-a-knight-scale.

Then a year later, he defeats the best swordfighter of the known world in single combat. (Who was wearing the best armor money can buy and wielding a magical sword).

WTF happened here?

Did Howland just pretend to be scared by those boys?

Or did he just get VERY lucky against Arthur Dayne? (Unlikely, since this is a heroic fantasy. Rhaegar was directly killed by Robert, and not by random archer #716)

Ned killed Arthur Dayne. We have yet to learn how Howland helped him avoid death himself.

[unitron]

There's no reason for any of Duncan and Jenny's children to be secret. If they exist, they're simply ignored because they are not part of the succession (whatever measures that were taken to cut them off were/are considered effective) and they've stayed out of the way at Greywater Watch.

Rhaegar seems to have given them some extended orders, which are still in effect.

Although Rhaegar was never himself king, having been killed by Robert before Jaime killed his father.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Although Rhaegar was never himself king, having been killed by Robert before Jaime killed his father.

He ordered Hightower to remain behind at the ToJ when he himself returned to KL, didn't he? As long as his new orders didn't contradict anything his father said, there should have been no problem.

[corbon]

I just realized the following discrepancy:

Howland Reed, the father of Meera & Jojen, is mentioned twice in the backstory:

At the tournament, a bunch of squires threaten to beat him up. He has to be rescued by a girl. This is as low as you can get on the effectiveness-as-a-knight-scale.

Then a year later, he defeats the best swordfighter of the known world in single combat. (Who was wearing the best armor money can buy and wielding a magical sword).

WTF happened here?

Reading comprehension failure?

There is no clear evidence HR even fought at ToJ, let alone defeated Arthur Dayne in single combat.

Ned's men, who weren't there and are making shit up (rumouring) about their awesome young Lord who somehow acquired the famous sword Dawn and returned it to Starfall, speculate to each other about Ned defeating Dayne in single combat. Ned tells his son that he would have died except for HR. Thats it.

Maybe HR trained really well in the year of war he had just lived through. Maybe he used the net and trident fighting style and Dayne didn't handle it well. Maybe HR used magic (no real evidence for that, but its a common fan favourite) or poison (also a fan favourite, even though the crannogman poisons we have seen are slow acting wasting types). Maybe it was simply a 2+ on 1 situation. Maybe HR was out the side and merely shouted a warning to Ned or a distraction to Dayne. A million possibilities exist with no clue for us to judge one from another as yet.

But not a single suggestion exists in the text that HR fought Dayne 1 on 1.

Also, its 2 years after Harrenhal, not 1. And the squires did beat him up, not threatened to,