Hating the "badasses"

[larastone]

So I've realized that the characters that piss off me in most literature are those that get away with a lot of shit mostly because fandom sees them as "badass" in one way or another. And its just so shallow IMO. And it gets even worse when they have a couple of vulnerablities or weak spots or something because then people just use that to woobify the shit out of them to the 500th dimensions.

The characters for me that are like that in ASOIAF are:

Victarion Greyjoy

Tywin Lannister

Robert Baratheon

Khal Drogo

I pretty much despise all the characters mentioned above and find the "complexity" that fandom gives them to be vastly overblown, I've never at any point been able to empathize with them (Reading TWOIAF only made me feel for more for Rhaella and Joanna in regards to Aerys not Tywin..) and am pretty disgusted that the lengths people go to excuse their behaviors and defend them. Especially when they start off with, "X is not a good guy, but he's a badass....!!!11" And especially with how so many people use excuses such as "well its Westeros!!!!" but then they'll demonize Catelyn for not fucking mothering Jon and Theon etc.

[Red Wedding Cake]

I've grown less sympathetic to characters who are supposed to be better people after they've suffered. Suffering doesn't make someone a better person, it just means they were victimized by someone else.

Jaime Lannister still pushed Bran out of a window.

Sandor Clegane still chopped Mycah nearly in half.

Theon Greyjoy still had the miller's boys burned.

Stannis Baratheon still had his brother killed with shadow magic and refused to unite against the Lannisters. He didn't suffer for this one, I'm just bitter about it. Aiding the Wall is a redemption arc that hasn't really convinced me.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Hate thread much?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I totally agree about Victarion and Drogo. The sum total of their character is "bro, this dude's badass", and they're broad, one-dimensional caricatures. I'd also add Daemon Targaryen here because I hate the fucker but people praise his stupid dragon jump

As for Tywin and Robert, I don't see them referred as badasses that often, so I don't mind them

[Gronzag]

Out of popular 'badasses' i only can't stand Tyrion and Asha, Pedophile rapist Drogo too, of course, but he isn't really that popular here.

[Mladen]

Badass is a term for a person who does bad things but we like... That said, on the board there is only a number of people calling Vic (???) or Tywin badass. Khal Drogo is a different case because Dany grew to love him which impacted our perspective. Same goes for Sandor... Or Robert.

[Ramsay Gimp]

So people enjoy characters that you despise, OP, and that just pisses you off? Is that the whole point of this thread?

[QuickReviveGuy]

I feel as though most readers are looking at it through a POV point of view. As in both Jon and Theon talk about how Catelyn personally rejecting them, making them feel ostracized in whats supposed to be their home. What further makes them hate Catelyn is her defense in her POVs are "Im jealous that you're not mine" for Jon and "you can't be trusted" to Theon. Same kinda goes for the other characters. We really only seem them through either their point of view or someone who is extremely biased in one way towards them.

[RainGhost]

I've grown less sympathetic to characters who are supposed to be better people after they've suffered. Suffering doesn't make someone a better person, it just means they were victimized by someone else.

Jaime Lannister still pushed Bran out of a window.

Sandor Clegane still chopped Mycah nearly in half.

Theon Greyjoy still had the miller's boys burned.

Stannis Baratheon still had his brother killed with shadow magic and refused to unite against the Lannisters. He didn't suffer for this one, I'm just bitter about it. Aiding the Wall is a redemption arc that hasn't really convinced me.

I agree with this 100%.

I also agree with the OP. I have no problem with people admiring a character's good qualities, e.g. Victarion's courage and fighting skills, but I think it goes too far when people try to gloss over a character's actions, e.g. Tywin's various atrocities, because "he is badass". And then people call Catelyn a monster for being a loving mother who would do anything for her kids. You can admire the good whilst also criticising the bad, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

[Mithras]

Victarion is not a good guy but he is a badass....!!!

Well, it is Westeros.

And what does Cat have to do with any of these?

[The silver dragon]

I totally agree about Victarion and Drogo. The sum total of their character is "bro, this dude's badass", and they're broad, one-dimensional caricatures. I'd also add Daemon Targaryen here because I hate the fucker but people praise his stupid dragon jump

As for Tywin and Robert, I don't see them referred as badasses that often, so I don't mind them

vhagar was a far more powerful of a dragon than the blood wrym, if vhagar had not lost his rider a dragon as strong as that could have pulled away from the blood wrym before hitting the lake. with sunfyre wounded and away from his rider aemond was the biggest threat Daemon dealt with him. if it was not for that then a green would be sitting the iron throne, with cregan army getting raped by Vhagar.

[David Selig]

The vast majority of fictional badass bore me to tears. Cutting a bunch of mooks to pieces gets boring very quickly. ASOIF is no exception.

[hear me bore]

Sounds like a feminist hate thread. Robert doesn't belong with the other three.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think we already defined what Badass mean. It's not related to moral, it's someone who does what it's needed in their own terms and it's mostly of the time successful. It's also about attitude and confidence. No one is saying Victarion is a good guy, but he's a badass and kick ass when it's needed. All of the Dornish campaign against the IT is also pretty badass.

I think the problem mostly have with the term is that it also defines a "manly" man, but it's not exclusive to them. Rhaenys and Visenya were badass. The Yellow Toad is a badass too, even though she actually didn't fight.

To summarize, being a badass is having balls, even if such balls are metaphorical. And having balls is something worth of respect, even if you don't like such character, because balls are mostly activated when you're in a hard difficult situation. I mean, Rhaenys went to Dorne with a FUCKING DRAGON and Yellow Toad told her to go and fuck herself. I can imagine Aegon thinking "lady has bigger balls than mine" after he got the message.

[George48]

You know what pisses me off?

(although to be honest I never actualy get pissed off on this forum because it is just that)

People being pissed off because other people likes characters that they despise.

[Knight Of Winter]

I'd beg to differ here - I think Robert and Tywin are much more complex and interesting characters than Drogo and Victarion - who are shown as pretty one-dimensional (especially Drogo).

And in some cases, like Vic's, it's important to distinguish between 1) finding the character unintentionally hilarious and fun to read and 2) liking the character. There's plenty of 1)s , while there are pretty few 2)s.

[hear me bore]

I think we already defined what Badass mean. It's not related to moral, it's someone who does what it's needed in their own terms and it's mostly of the time successful. It's also about attitude and confidence. No one is saying Victarion is a good guy, but he's a badass and kick ass when it's needed. All of the Dornish campaign against the IT is also pretty badass.

I think the problem mostly have with the term is that it also defines a "manly" man, but it's not exclusive to them. Rhaenys and Visenya were badass. The Yellow Toad is a badass too, even though she actually didn't fight.

To summarize, being a badass is having balls, even if such balls are metaphorical. And having balls is something worth of respect, even if you don't like such character, because balls are mostly activated when you're in a hard difficult situation. I mean, Rhaenys went to Dorne with a FUCKING DRAGON and Yellow Toad told her to go and fuck herself. I can imagine Aegon thinking "lady has bigger balls than mine" after he got the message.

Agree with badass not needing to mean a man. Arya is a badass. That Manderly chick was a badass.

[Red Wedding Cake]

I think we already defined what Badass mean. It's not related to moral, it's someone who does what it's needed in their own terms and it's mostly of the time successful. It's also about attitude and confidence. No one is saying Victarion is a good guy, but he's a badass and kick ass when it's needed. All of the Dornish campaign against the IT is also pretty badass.

I think the problem mostly have with the term is that it also defines a "manly" man, but it's not exclusive to them. Rhaenys and Visenya were badass. The Yellow Toad is a badass too, even though she actually didn't fight.

To summarize, being a badass is having balls, even if such balls are metaphorical. And having balls is something worth of respect, even if you don't like such character, because balls are mostly activated when you're in a hard difficult situation. I mean, Rhaenys went to Dorne with a FUCKING DRAGON and Yellow Toad told her to go and fuck herself. I can imagine Aegon thinking "lady has bigger balls than mine" after he got the message.

"Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.”

:dunno:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agree with badass not needing to mean a man. Arya is a badass. That Manderly chick was a badass.

Yes, a lot of women in ASOIAF are also badass: Arya, Brienne, the Mormont ladies, Manderly girl. Alys Karstark who got to the Wall on her own. But no one says they are wrong or anything, even though they set up also a very impossible standard for the women who are not into fighting: they are seen as lesser, victims or weak.

I think people call it "double standard".

[Stannis's birthright]

Without the badasses of the series this would be a tough read .. Thankfully George appreciates a good badass