Did Stannis ant Robert dead?

[Lee-Sensei]

I used to defend him, but I as reading So Spake Martin and found out that he as sulking on Dragonstone hen he could have warned Robert or at least Ned of what as going on.

[Giant of Tarth]

I'm not one to support Stannis but he had no friends in KL and knew there were a lot of potential enemies. After Jon was killed I don't think Robert would have believed Stannis alone. He could have tried to warn Ned, but how? Would he think Ned would listen? I don't think he wanted his brother dead, but I don't think he thought him a worthy king either.

[devilish]

Stannis was always loyal to his brother. He fought wars for him and nearly starved to death. However his brother has always shunned him and he was also a horrible king. Robert loyalty lied elsewhere towards his friends and the Lannisters. Let them save him

[The Drunkard]

If it's the one I'm thinking of, no? Stannis considering the threat to Robert less than he ould have if they ere close seems like a given, not an indication that Stannis anted Robert to die.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

While I agree that he should have told Robert what happened and his suspicions, I don't think he wanted him dead. I think he loved his brother and looked up to him. He was really hurt when he gave Storm's End to Renly. You can only be truly hurt by someone you love.

[RainGhost]

I don't think Stannis wanted Robert dead but I think he feared for his own life more than he feared for Robert ' s. I do think though that if Stannis hadn't been feeling so sulky and hard done by then he would have made more of an effort to do his duty by Robert and the realm as Ned did. If Robert had named Stannis Hand, he would have done his duty instead of sulking.

[Lee-Sensei]

Stannis was always loyal to his brother. He fought wars for him and nearly starved to death. However his brother has always shunned him and he was also a horrible king. Robert loyalty lied elsewhere towards his friends and the Lannisters. Let them save him

I used to believe that too... until I did some more reading. Giving him Dragonstone as meant was an honor and called overly generous by GRRM himself. That and his constant whining about Ned makes him much less sympathetic to me. Also, if he feels that way he shouldn't be going for a Throne he can only claim because of his brother.

[Nyrhex]

I used to defend him, but I as reading So Spake Martin and found out that he as sulking on Dragonstone hen he could have warned Robert or at least Ned of what as going on.

Q: Why did Stannis sit silently on Dragonstone for months when he had reason to believe that Robert may have been in danger after Jon Arryn was murdered?

A: Stannis did not have a strong enough base of power but more importantly Robert and Stannis were just not close enough. They did not get along so Stannis may not have been considering the threat to Robert as much as he would have if they had been close.

The threat to Robert: Joffrey is already 12 years old. No one bothers to kill Robert. When Jon Arryn starts to investigate - Jon Arryn is the one murdered. At the time, Jon Arryn's killer/s believe that the threat is gone. Otherwise they would have killed Robert already.

Stannis' power base in the capital: Household guard - Clearly not enough, since Jon Arryn likely had a stronger guard, and was still murdered. The Kingsguard - No allies, one is a suspect himself. The City Watch - In LF's pocket. Small Council - LF, Varys, Pycelle are all hostile agents. Renly with a powerbase of ~100 swords, and no reason to believe Stannis (and later mocks him for it), and no close bond with Robert, is of little use.

How exactly is Stannis to try and act with this powerbase? The moment Ned tries to act, with the same evidence, and an even stronger bond with Robert, Cersei kills Robert, the City Watch kills Ned's men, and Ned loses his head. Not bringing Ned into this was Stannis' best move before he can neutralize Cersei's power base. Considering that the danger to Robert's life is minimal at the time, and that trying to work a LP with a strong bond to Robert had met with complete failure last time, Stannis' best move is to prevent whoever killed Jon Arryn from learning what Stannis is doing (closing Dragonstone), gather a force to counter the City Watch and the Lannisters in the capital (including sellswords hired in the free cities, ~3,000 men on Dragonstone by the time of late AGOT), and gather proof - Something which is not only impossible considering the lack of DNA testing, even Robert's friends like Ned and Jon Arryn considered a coin toss with how Robert would react.

No, Stannis did not want Robert dead, and not running to tell Robert or Ned is not a missed chance, it's a logical course of action considering Stannis' last attempt to warn Robert.

[GallowsKnight]

I see it often said that Stannis abandoned Robert in Kingslanding. I feel that is not entirely true.

In my analysis Stannis' flight comes down to two things:

1. Stannis feels Robert would not believe him

Stannis brought his suspicions to Jon Arryn because

"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful,' said Stannis. 'From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved"

Even Jon Arryn whom Robert loved, did not immediately take this suspicions to Robert. Only trying to cryptically on his death bed.

The seed is strong - Jon Arryn

Then Stannis has no evidence that Jon Arryn was poisoned, the Hand was an old man and no one sees it as suspicious.

"Near forty years I have been Grand Maester of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle replied. "Under our good King Robert, and Aerys Targaryen before him, and his father Jaehaerys the Second before him, and even for a few short months under Jaehaerys's father, Aegon the Fortunate, the Fifth of His Name. I have seen more of illness than I care to remember, my lord. I will tell you this: Every case is different, and every case is alike. Lord Jon's death was no stranger than any other

But Stannis should have gone to Ned

Stannis does not have Robert's relationship with Ned. He's likely only met the man twice in his fifteen years of governance (Storm's End and the Greyjoy Rebellion). He knows of Ned Stark's reputation but he does not have the same rapport he had with Jon Arryn. Stannis also doesn't know that the Lannisters are on Ned's shit list because of Lysa Arryn's letter, Bran's fall and the Catspaw.

Ned Stark was no friend of mine - Stannis Barathon

Stannis cannot be certain that Ned would believe him.

2. Robert was in danger, but Stannis appeared to be in more

Now it's foolish to say Robert wasn't in danger, as Cersei did ultimately have him killed.. But while Robert was ignorant of the incest there was less immediate threat to his life. In fact he only died when after Ned confronted Cersei. One could argue if there was a vast Lannister conspiracy (which there actually wasn't), keeping Robert alive might still in their best interests (keeps accruing debt and hold the kingdom together by force of his personality).

Stannis on the hand had publicly been seen with Jon Arryn at both Tobbho Motts and Alayaya's brothel.

A brothel? Ned said. The Lord of the Eyrie and Hand of the King visited a brothel with Stannis Baratheon? He shook his head, incredulous, wondering what Lord Renly would make of this tidbit. Roberts lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm, but Stannis was a different sort of man; a bare year younger than the king, yet utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving, grim in his sense of duty.

The boy insists its true. The Hand took three guardsmen with him, and the boy says they were joking of it when he took their horses afterward.

Tobho Mott paused a long moment and set aside his wine. The Hand did call upon me, with Lord Stannis, the kings brother. I regret to say, they did not honor me with their patronage.

This is pretty much public knowledge. Any conspirators who killed Jon Arryn would want to kill him too. Removing himself saves his own life and Robert might temporarily be safe.

Furthermore Pycelle the Lannister lap dog is going to spying on any correspondence.

Even if Stannis felt safe enough contacting Ned, remember he has no idea how suspicious Ned is of the Lannisters. So how does he know he's not going to be lead in to a trap? That Ned had sent the letters at all?

It struck him suddenly that he might return to Winterfell by sea. Ned was no sailor, and ordinarily would have preferred the kingsroad, but if he took ship he could stop at Dragonstone and speak with Stannis Baratheon. Pycelle had sent a raven off across the water, with a polite letter from Ned requesting Lord Stannis to return to his seat on the small council. As yet, there had been no reply, but the silence only deepened his suspicions. Lord Stannis shared the secret Jon Arryn had died for, he was certain of it. The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

Conclusion

Stannis though he was going to be killed and that if he told Robert nothing would happen.

Extra Thoughts

But what was Stannis doing on that island?

Contrary to what others say, Stannis wasn't sitting on his hands on Dragonstone. He controlled information in and out. He kept the bulk of the Royal Fleet close to hand and summoned all of his 3000 bannermen. We even know he was planning on gathering sellswords from Myr (2000 men who arrive later).

Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true? - Tywin

Furthermore does anyone believe Stannis (who knows the size of the forces of every lord) though he could crown himself with so few men?

I posit that Stannis was gathering forces for the right opportunity where he could from a position of power, secure the royal family and inform his brother of the incest. Or if events deteriorated faster he would be able to bring those forces to combine with his brothers in the event of any war against the Lannisters.

What he didn't count on was Ned finding out the incest so soon. Remember this took him some dozen years. He doesn't know Ned's been tipped off about the murder and has reason to investigate. Events in Kingslanding get out of control and suddenly Robert's dead, Ned's prisoner and Renly's crowned. Now Stannis is the true king and sitting in the shitty position he was at the start of ACOK.

"If Stannis' evidence wasn't good enough to tell Robert, why should it make him King?"

Stannis may have believed himself to be 100% certain about the incest, but felt that Robert still would not listen to reason.

On top of this the situation when Stannis crowned himself is much different to when Jon Arryn died. Back then he had suspicions, but now with Robert and Ned, Lysa Arryn declaring Tyrion Jon's murderer and the realm split in civil war. It's much more likely that Stannis was right about the incest.

[LordStoneheart]

Have you seen the artwork for Dragonstone in twoiaf? Anyone who bitches about getting that castle is whiny and ungrateful.

But seriously, I definitely believe Stannis had his own agenda that didn't include helping Robert (or Eddard) out. It does look more like a secret bid for the throne than anything else.

[Nyrhex]

Have you seen the artwork for Dragonstone in twoiaf? Anyone who bitches about getting that castle is whiny and ungrateful.

But seriously, I definitely believe Stannis had his own agenda that didn't include helping Robert (or Eddard) out. It does look more like a secret bid for the throne than anything else.

Dragonstone itself is meaningless. It's just a castle on an island. Stannis was given Dragonstone when Cersei was already pregnant with Joffrety. The Island is poor, and Robert gifting Stannis with Dragonstone while gifting Renly Storm's End is the porblem. Robert could have kept Dragonstone and the Stromlands. Considering that it's a bunch of work, the conventional option is to give Storm's End and the Stormlands to the next in line - Stannis. Not giving Stannis the Stormlands, while giving them to the younger sibling, is a slap in the face, and Dragonstone's symbolic status as the heir's seat is bullshit. There is nothing stopping Robert from naming Stannis Heir presumptive, keep Dragonstone with a castellan, until Cersei's pregnancy is revealed to have delivered the Heir apparent. Stannis now gets the smaller of two titles, while being higher in the line of succession for SE and the Stormlands.

I have to ask, because whenever people claim that Stannis wanted Robert to die so he would be king I just don't get it - What do you think was the plan for this bid for the throne? I mean, aside from waiting for Robert to die?

Considering that the KL plot-arc starts with Stannis trying to inform Robert, considering that Stannis has by far the smallest army, and considering that Stannis is yet without proof or ability to convince the realm of his claims, the claim that he secretly wanted Robert to die is laughable. More so when you consider that you claim that the guy's plan was to wait on his island while a woman who procrastinated killing Robert for over a decade would suddenly decide this is the time, and that the Lannisters would for some reason, what? Give up on the throne? What do you claim was the plan after Robert dies? To take his 3,000 men against the power of the West? Robert could have died from drink-related health issues in the next couple years and it does'nt change anythhing - Stannis has no game plan for the next part - Taking the throne. His strategy for the WOT5K is: "According to the law, I am king. My situation is, stratigically, horrible. Fuck it, I'll just wing it.".

[Lee-Sensei]

Dragonstone itself is meaningless. It's just a castle on an island. Stannis was given Dragonstone when Cersei was already pregnant with Joffrety. The Island is poor, and Robert gifting Stannis with Dragonstone while gifting Renly Storm's End is the porblem. Robert could have kept Dragonstone and the Stromlands. Considering that it's a bunch of work, the conventional option is to give Storm's End and the Stormlands to the next in line - Stannis. Not giving Stannis the Stormlands, while giving them to the younger sibling, is a slap in the face, and Dragonstone's symbolic status as the heir's seat is bullshit. There is nothing stopping Robert from naming Stannis Heir presumptive, keep Dragonstone with a castellan, until Cersei's pregnancy is revealed to have delivered the Heir apparent. Stannis now gets the smaller of two titles, while being higher in the line of succession for SE and the Stormlands.

I have to ask, because whenever people claim that Stannis wanted Robert to die so he would be king I just don't get it - What do you think was the plan for this bid for the throne? I mean, aside from waiting for Robert to die?

Considering that the KL plot-arc starts with Stannis trying to inform Robert, considering that Stannis has by far the smallest army, and considering that Stannis is yet without proof or ability to convince the realm of his claims, the claim that he secretly wanted Robert to die is laughable. More so when you consider that you claim that the guy's plan was to wait on his island while a woman who procrastinated killing Robert for over a decade would suddenly decide this is the time, and that the Lannisters would for some reason, what? Give up on the throne? What do you claim was the plan after Robert dies? To take his 3,000 men against the power of the West? Robert could have died from drink-related health issues in the next couple years and it does'nt change anythhing - Stannis has no game plan for the next part - Taking the throne. His strategy for the WOT5K is: "According to the law, I am king. My situation is, stratigically, horrible. Fuck it, I'll just wing it.".

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

Shouldn't he just be grateful hes getting something in the first place?

[LordStoneheart]

Shouldn't he just be grateful hes getting something in the first place?

I agree. If I was given a huge dragon castle on a big island, I wouldn't look the gift stag in the mouth.

[The Drunkard]

Shouldn't he just be grateful hes getting something in the first place?

What ground his gears was Renly getting Storm's End. No contest, Stannis was more deserving, both before the castles were given out and afterwards. And I imagine that's what GRRM means when he specifies Robert's generosity being careless. He didn't think it through that he was giving the far greater prize to someone who did nothing to earn it over the brother that had never given him anything other than his best.

Is it petty? Well, I imagine very, very few people wouldn't feel bitter if they were in a similar position with the family business, their inheritance or something like that.

[Lee-Sensei]

^Thats what you got from it? If Stannis is all about duty he shouldn't care about the reward.

Dragonstone needed a stronger Lord. It's the traditional seat of the Targaryen prince and a perfect position to defend Kings Landing from a Naval Invasion... seeing as Robert made Stannis his Master of Ships.

Stannis had no inheritance though. Its all Roberts. He chose to share it with his brothers.

[The Drunkard]

^Thats what you got from it? If Stannis is all about duty he shouldn't care about the reward.

Got from what, GRRM's mention of careless generosity? Definitely.

This belief that Stannis should never expect anything in return for what he gave to Robert is sort of ridiculous. Stannis isn't blind to rewards, he explains as much to Jon Snow, and has in the past rewarded or intended to reward his vassals with land, power and marriages for their service (e.g: Alester gets to be Hand because he's the first to come over, Rolland Storm is his pretender Lord of Nightsong, he intended to give his loyalists land in the North, he says Justin may get to marry Asha for doing his duty). He's easily capable of being big on doing one's duty and also expect to be treated fairly, vassals aren't the only ones with responsibilities.

Dragonstone needed a stronger Lord. It's the traditional seat of the Targaryen prince and a perfect position to defend Kings Landing from a Naval Invasion... seeing as Robert made Stannis his Master of Ships.

Stannis had no inheritance though. Its all Roberts. He chose to share it with his brothers.

Okay, but that doesn't make Stannis' complaints invalid. He doesn't complain about having to root out Robert's enemies or being given Dragonstone in isolation. The issue was with Renly, who was less deserving than Stannis in every sense, being given the greater reward.

[Lee-Sensei]

^Stannis did get rewards. Dragonstone, the Royal Fleet and a position on Roberts Small Council.

Is it about Renly? I can't remember the quote.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

^Thats what you got from it? If Stannis is all about duty he shouldn't care about the reward.

Dragonstone needed a stronger Lord. It's the traditional seat of the Targaryen prince and a perfect position to defend Kings Landing from a Naval Invasion... seeing as Robert made Stannis his Master of Ships.

Stannis had no inheritance though. Its all Roberts. He chose to share it with his brothers.

Storm's End was the seat of House Baratheon. Stannis wanted and deserved it. Who said he cared nothing of reward? He does care much of justice and to him justice would be him being rewarded with Storm's End.

[The Wolves]

He sat on very important information about the twincest, he just left Robert he didn't even try to approach Robert about the information so yeah after killing Renly I think Stannis very much wanted Robert dead not that I can blame him.

[Lee-Sensei]

Storm's End was the seat of House Baratheon. Stannis wanted and deserved it. Who said he cared nothing of reward? He does care much of justice and to him justice would be him being rewarded with Storm's End.

Roberts was the head of House Baratheon though. Not Stannis.