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Did Stannis ant Robert dead?


Lee-Sensei

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^Stannis did get rewards. Dragonstone, the Royal Fleet and a position on Roberts Small Council.

Is it about Renly? I can't remember the quote.

I was responding to your suggestion that Stannis being all about duty means he shouldn't care about the reward. I wasn't saying he wasn't rewarded, only that he has reason to care about how Robert treated him for his service.

I don't know what quote you're referring to. If it's the one (I think) you started the thread over, it's just about Robert and Stannis' relationship, it doesn't mention castles. If it's the one you linked, it's in the first line (while Renly got Storm's End). If it's some complaint Stannis makes in the book, well, you'd have to be more specific. :drunk:

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I think too that Stannis had no friends in King's Landing and may Robert wouldn't believe him. Also why should Stannis sent a message about that to Ned? If I remember well, Stannis didn't like Ned.


If Stannis knew the truth then may he was waiting to put his own child onto the Iron Throne if Robert dies in the future. But since Robert died, Ned sent him a message, and then he was prisoned and executed, Stannis could move saying that a deadman (Ned) discovered it and he's the successor of the throne, thus it seems that not Stannis himself started this kind of "rebellion".


So I think that Stannis knew about "Robert's children", but maybe he planned to gather strong allies like the Reach with marry Shireen to one of them (Tyrell, Hightower, Redwyne or Arryn) and when Robert dies sometime in the future, he will claim the throne for Shireen. But Ned's moves made everything faster.


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Shouldn't he just be grateful hes getting something in the first place?

Not when Robert is gifting Storm's End to the younger brother. This isn't something that is unique to Stannis. Most older siblings resent being cheated out of inheritence. Both in real life and in the books.

^Thats what you got from it? If Stannis is all about duty he shouldn't care about the reward.

Dragonstone needed a stronger Lord. It's the traditional seat of the Targaryen prince and a perfect position to defend Kings Landing from a Naval Invasion... seeing as Robert made Stannis his Master of Ships.

Stannis had no inheritance though. Its all Roberts. He chose to share it with his brothers.

If he is gifting Stannis a place that needs a strong castellan, if he is gifting Dragonstone instead of Storm's End because he blames Stannis for letting the Targ kids escape, it's not a gift, it's a job and a punishment. Cersei was already pregnant with Joffrey at the time, and Robert did not strip Stannis from Dragonstone to give it to Joffrey. It stopped being the heir's seat, and became the seat of a cadet branch of the Baratheon family.

There is nothing stopping Robert from giving an island and a few minor and troublesome lords to Stannis until Joffrey comes of age and the island and the lords are already pacified, while gifting Stannis the far larger title of SE and the Stormlands. Renly was a child. A castellan ruled the Stormlands until very recently. Not that Renly does anything when he is of age, considering that he is at the campital, while a castellan still holds SE and the Stormlands. And Stannis wasn't even on Dragonstone all that much either. Axell Florent kept the castle as castellan while Stannis was at the Small Council, or when Stannis went on anti-pirate campaigns with the fleet (like when he goes to the Sisters to deal with pirates and smugglers).

Robert is king, he has a kingdom to avoid ruling. He gifts his other assests and titles to his two siblings. The older gets the smaller title. Naturally, it pisses him off. The harbor at Dragonstone is not critical to the coastal defence of Westeros, or of KL. Usually the fleet is stationed at KL, it's only at the start of the books that Stannis takes a portion of the fleet to Dragonstone.

It's not the fact that Stannis did not get a reward. It's the fact that Robert very clearly humiliates him publically. Stannis is given the smaller seat, Robert ignores his service to the realm in two wars and celebrates others' accomplishments, Robert breaks Stannis' wedding bed... For fucks' sakes, Selyse is a laughing stock across the country, with people insulting Stannis as far away as in the North by making fun of "Stannis' Baratheon's Wife's beard". Even Wildlings have heared of it. How the fuck does something like that even happen, unless people take the que from above that Stannis is held in low regard by the king?

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Not when Robert is gifting Storm's End to the younger brother. This isn't something that is unique to Stannis. Most older siblings resent being cheated out of inheritence. Both in real life and in the books.

If he is gifting Stannis a place that needs a strong castellan, if he is gifting Dragonstone instead of Storm's End because he blames Stannis for letting the Targ kids escape, it's not a gift, it's a job and a punishment. Cersei was already pregnant with Joffrey at the time, and Robert did not strip Stannis from Dragonstone to give it to Joffrey. It stopped being the heir's seat, and became the seat of a cadet branch of the Baratheon family.

There is nothing stopping Robert from giving an island and a few minor and troublesome lords to Stannis until Joffrey comes of age and the island and the lords are already pacified, while gifting Stannis the far larger title of SE and the Stormlands. Renly was a child. A castellan ruled the Stormlands until very recently. Not that Renly does anything when he is of age, considering that he is at the campital, while a castellan still holds SE and the Stormlands. And Stannis wasn't even on Dragonstone all that much either. Axell Florent kept the castle as castellan while Stannis was at the Small Council, or when Stannis went on anti-pirate campaigns with the fleet (like when he goes to the Sisters to deal with pirates and smugglers).

Robert is king, he has a kingdom to avoid ruling. He gifts his other assests and titles to his two siblings. The older gets the smaller title. Naturally, it pisses him off. The harbor at Dragonstone is not critical to the coastal defence of Westeros, or of KL. Usually the fleet is stationed at KL, it's only at the start of the books that Stannis takes a portion of the fleet to Dragonstone.

It's not the fact that Stannis did not get a reward. It's the fact that Robert very clearly humiliates him publically. Stannis is given the smaller seat, Robert ignores his service to the realm in two wars and celebrates others' accomplishments, Robert breaks Stannis' wedding bed... For fucks' sakes, Selyse is a laughing stock across the country, with people insulting Stannis as far away as in the North by making fun of "Stannis' Baratheon's Wife's beard". Even Wildlings have heared of it. How the fuck does something like that even happen, unless people take the que from above that Stannis is held in low regard by the king?

Except Stannis wasn't cheated out of his inheritance. He had no inheritance. The Stormlands were Roberts. He decided to give it Renly and it was his right to. A better example would be when Renly declared himself King (although who worthy he was to inherit his brothers Throne when he left him and Ned in that Den of Lions is highly debatable).

Cersei wasn't pregnant with Joffrey. Joffrey was born in 286. Robert became King in 283. Stannis was Roberts heir for 2-3 years.

Did Robert ignore his services to the realm or is it just in Stannis' head? He gave him a lot of power and some pretty important positions.

Robert was drunk at Stannis' wedding, wasn't he? From what GRRM tells us, it seems to be in Stannis head. Dragonstone was meant as an honor and Robert in his own way loved his brothers. These are Georges words.

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And a seat on the small council.

The least powerfull one, and Robert does his best to ignore/hamper Stannis even then. Renly gets the Master of Laws, and neglects it. Stannis is Master of Ships - He needs to take care of the fleet, and fight piracy and smuggling. Does he have a say in the council? Robert shuts him down, or simply ignores his vote, even by RavenMail®, when discussing desicions of foriegn policy that relate to a damn naval invasion. It's not like there was no time to ask him, it's about a day to and another day from for a raven. Robert does'nt bother to even ask his Master of Ships about a technical perspective regarding a defense from a naval invasion.

Except Stannis wasn't cheated out of his inheritance. He had no inheritance. The Stormlands were Roberts. He decided to give it Renly and it was his right to. A better example would be when Renly declared himself King (although who worthy he was to inherit his brothers Throne when he left him and Ned in that Den of Lions is highly debatable).

Cersei wasn't pregnant with Joffrey. Joffrey was born in 286. Robert became King in 283. Stannis was Roberts heir for 2-3 years.

Did Robert ignore his services to the realm or is it just in Stannis' head? He gave him a lot of power and some pretty important positions.

Robert was drunk at Stannis' wedding, wasn't he? From what GRRM tells us, it seems to be in Stannis head. Dragonstone was meant as an honor and Robert in his own way loved his brothers. These are Georges words.

Stannis is next in line to Storm's End while Joffrey is unborn. You mean to say he is Robert's heir when it's Dragonstone, but not when it's Storm's End?

At the time Stannis is next in line for SE, and Robert gives it to Renly. This is clearly against the order of succession, as the larger title should go to the older sibling. For a closer example see Lyonel and Lyn Corbray. Lyonel is the elder, but because Lyn had taken his father's sword and distinguished himself in battle, his father gave him the family's VS sword, Lady Forlorn. Lyonel is still pissed off about it. Here, Renly had done nothing to distinguish himself, other than not being Stannis. Renly later declares himself king because he wanted to be king, not because succession didn't matter. He was a rebel and a traitor, he just didn't care to be called that because he thought that with the largest single army his victory was assured and no one could stop him.

Stannis only arrived in Storm's End 12 years prior to the events of ACOK according to Cressen's POV, which happens exactly when Joffrey is turning 13. That makes it one year after Joffrey was born. Cersei distincly remembers being present when Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis (and that it was meant as a slight), and combined with the SSM's claim that Robert's action can be interpreted as confirming Stannis as heir, I place it shortly after Robert and Cersei are wed in late 284. Joffrey is born at the start of 286, so Cersei is pregnant for most of 285. That gives Robert a few months of no heir, and Cersei not being pregnant, at best. She most likely was already pregnant by the time Robert decided to gift Dragonstone to Stannis. Stannis arriving in mid-late 285 to Dragonstone, is the only way that sorta works with Cressen's canon, and GRRM's SSM.

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The Master of Ships is the least important member of the Small Council?



I meant to say that Storms End belonged to Robert and Robert didn't look to be dying so Stannis and Renly didn't have a right to anything. By rights Storms End should have been passed off to Roberts "sons", Joffrey and Tommen.



Quote stating that Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone years after the Rebellion?


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I used to defend him, but I as reading So Spake Martin and found out that he as sulking on Dragonstone hen he could have warned Robert or at least Ned of what as going on.

Ignorance to the threat to the King doesn't seem to be a new one, even when Robert was actually killed Ned Stark was like "Wha? Why didn't I think of that?" Plot induced stupidity, nothing more.

Have you seen the artwork for Dragonstone in twoiaf? Anyone who bitches about getting that castle is whiny and ungrateful.

But seriously, I definitely believe Stannis had his own agenda that didn't include helping Robert (or Eddard) out. It does look more like a secret bid for the throne than anything else.

But there is no SSM stating that, whereas there is an SSM basically saying "Stannis didn't like Robert and didn't appreciate that he might be in danger". Its the burning Edric chestnut again, "he did it solely for the crown" vs the author stating that "Stannis is one of the first to appreciate the threat of the Others".

Dragonstone itself is meaningless. It's just a castle on an island. Stannis was given Dragonstone when Cersei was already pregnant with Joffrety. The Island is poor, and Robert gifting Stannis with Dragonstone while gifting Renly Storm's End is the porblem. Robert could have kept Dragonstone and the Stromlands. Considering that it's a bunch of work, the conventional option is to give Storm's End and the Stormlands to the next in line - Stannis. Not giving Stannis the Stormlands, while giving them to the younger sibling, is a slap in the face, and Dragonstone's symbolic status as the heir's seat is bullshit. There is nothing stopping Robert from naming Stannis Heir presumptive, keep Dragonstone with a castellan, until Cersei's pregnancy is revealed to have delivered the Heir apparent. Stannis now gets the smaller of two titles, while being higher in the line of succession for SE and the Stormlands.

I have to ask, because whenever people claim that Stannis wanted Robert to die so he would be king I just don't get it - What do you think was the plan for this bid for the throne? I mean, aside from waiting for Robert to die?

Considering that the KL plot-arc starts with Stannis trying to inform Robert, considering that Stannis has by far the smallest army, and considering that Stannis is yet without proof or ability to convince the realm of his claims, the claim that he secretly wanted Robert to die is laughable. More so when you consider that you claim that the guy's plan was to wait on his island while a woman who procrastinated killing Robert for over a decade would suddenly decide this is the time, and that the Lannisters would for some reason, what? Give up on the throne? What do you claim was the plan after Robert dies? To take his 3,000 men against the power of the West? Robert could have died from drink-related health issues in the next couple years and it does'nt change anythhing - Stannis has no game plan for the next part - Taking the throne. His strategy for the WOT5K is: "According to the law, I am king. My situation is, stratigically, horrible. Fuck it, I'll just wing it.".

^Thats what you got from it? If Stannis is all about duty he shouldn't care about the reward.

Dragonstone needed a stronger Lord. It's the traditional seat of the Targaryen prince and a perfect position to defend Kings Landing from a Naval Invasion... seeing as Robert made Stannis his Master of Ships.

Stannis had no inheritance though. Its all Roberts. He chose to share it with his brothers.

I dunno, when you work hard and someone else does absolutely nothing and gets better rewards than you (better castle, better lands, better incomes, his actual home AND a seat on the small council) I don't think it matters how seriously you take your job, you're not going to be shitting rainbows.

Except Stannis wasn't cheated out of his inheritance. He had no inheritance. The Stormlands were Roberts. He decided to give it Renly and it was his right to. A better example would be when Renly declared himself King (although who worthy he was to inherit his brothers Throne when he left him and Ned in that Den of Lions is highly debatable).

Cersei wasn't pregnant with Joffrey. Joffrey was born in 286. Robert became King in 283. Stannis was Roberts heir for 2-3 years.

Did Robert ignore his services to the realm or is it just in Stannis' head? He gave him a lot of power and some pretty important positions.

Robert was drunk at Stannis' wedding, wasn't he? From what GRRM tells us, it seems to be in Stannis head. Dragonstone was meant as an honor and Robert in his own way loved his brothers. These are Georges words.

The Master of Ships is the least important member of the Small Council?

I meant to say that Storms End belonged to Robert and Robert didn't look to be dying so Stannis and Renly didn't have a right to anything. By rights Storms End should have been passed off to Roberts "sons", Joffrey and Tommen.

Quote stating that Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone years after the Rebellion?

Does it matter what he could've done with Dragonstone or Storms End? Only what he did matters, he was doling out his nice family home and some bleak castle in the middle of nowhere and the brother that fought, bled and starved for him got the lesser reward as opposed to the other brother who Stannis took care of during the siege, a better man might accept it with good grace, accept that at least he isn't some commoner or whatever, problem is is that you can count the better men on one hand and still have fingers to spare. Had Stannis sided with the mad King, he probably would've ensured Roberts downfall and would be the Lord of Storms End.

Actually that just makes me think, everyone talks about the Stannis/Robert relationship, but in truth there is nothing wrong or surprising about it, its Stannis and Renly which is tragic, when you consider that they starved together for a year, then Renly just blurts "I've never liked you Stannis". Sure, Stannis probably did little to be liked, but its just another slap in the face, really.

Its not that I particularly approve of Stannis hiding on Dragonstone (though the alternatives were neither pleasing or plentiful) I just don't think there was anything malicious about it, just ignorance.

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Stannis did great holding Storms End, but if he turned against Robert... would the men go with him? I think they were more loyal to Robert than Stannis?

Erm, that is a good question. Stannis does inspire very hard loyalty in those closest to him, James Arryn said it best when he said Stannis' men "die hard" and considering that half the Storm Lords did go over to the Mad King its not a great leap to say that Storms End, under Stannis, would follow suit. The top knobs would very likely, self preservation and all that, and the men would because following orders is what soldiers do. Only a few men tried to go against Stannis and over to the Tyrell's during a year long siege.

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But isn't that mostly about Robert. Even no, aren't there Stormmen with Stannis claiming that Robert would be doing better?

Robert is esteemed in death, and a lot of what people praise Robert for is for the reputation he built up during the rebellion, which also means that Stannis is reputationless as well at this point, so I'll take back what I said about him inspiring loyalty/putting people off as its probably not relevant at this time and people are choosing sides based purely on whether they feel they should follow their liege or their King.

Assuming Stannis is the highest authority in Storms End, and that other Stormlanders did fight for Aerys, then he probably has the backing of the garrison whatever he does, since loyalty to the King is expected of them. Whether that is true or not, he could've yielded to the Tyrell's with decent terms at any point and probably been allowed to maintain his position and keep his head, while Mace (Randyll) went on to finish the homeless Robert. He didn't, he starved, he helped ensure that Robert won and he got the short end of the stick... compared to others.

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1 The Master of Ships is the least important member of the Small Council?

2 I meant to say that Storms End belonged to Robert and Robert didn't look to be dying so Stannis and Renly didn't have a right to anything. By rights Storms End should have been passed off to Roberts "sons", Joffrey and Tommen.

3 Quote stating that Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone years after the Rebellion?

1 At least in Robert's Small Council. They discuss a possible naval invasion. The Master of ships never gets at least a raven asking his opinion. I can get the Hand, the Spymaster, and even the master of coin being relevant. Renly is the master of Laws. What does he have to contribute to the discussion other than a vote in favor of Robert's opinion? What does the Grand Maester? The LC of the KG was not present as well, but he is not as relevant. The Master of Ships has to deal with pirates and smugglers, is ignored by the king on a daily basis, and even when faced with a possible naval invasion. Yeah, it was mainly because Robert felt the need to give titles to his siblings because it's expected of him, but at the same time just wanted to fuck with Stannis.

2 And again, it does'nt matter. He already gives away titles, why give SE to Renly and Dragonstone to Stannis?

3 Quotes:

A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past, and he had served, and served well. - ACOK, Prologue. The prologue is at the time of the Red Comet, which is at the time of Joffrey's 13th name day. Cressen and Stannis arrived to Dragonstone 12 years ago, near the end of 297. Before that Cressen was Maester at SE. It is odd that a Maester changes castle, as he is sworn to the castle, not the lord. It is likely that when Stannis is officially given Dragonstone, the citadlel replaces the former Targ Maester with a Baratheon one, as part of the replacing of the old regime.

I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert’s enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutiful as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert’s thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm’s End and its incomes to Renly. Storm’s End belonged to House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne. - ACOK, Prologue. The rebellion ends in late 283. Around 8.5-9 months later, Danaerys is born on Dragonstone, and Stannis had finished building a war fleet. Just before he arrives to Dragonstone sometime in mid-late 294, Danaerys and Viserys have run to Essos. Cersei and Robert are already married at this point. In about half a year (early 286), Joffrey would be born. Cersei is likely with child when Stannis sets sail. This quote also indicates how Stannis expected that Robert give him SE not for his service, but for the simple fact that since Robert is king, he would need to let go of the Stormlands, and Stannis is next in line. Instead Robert gives it to the younger brother, and gives a smaller title to Stannis, some time later, as shown in the next quote.

“Your brother has been the Lord of Storm’s End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—” - ACOK, Prologue. Renly has held SE for longer than Stannis has held Dragonstone, according to the same chapter. This is not an SSM being semi-compatible with book-canon. This is the same person, giving us his memory's version of events, in the same chapter. Renly was given SE after Robert wed Cersei, but before Stannis was given Dragonstone. So Robert had already in mind to give Dragonstone to Stannis. The argument that it was punishment over the Targ kids getting away does'nt stand. What is left is Robert confirming Stannis as heir - But Stannis is not holding it as castellan, he starts a cadet house, so that is bunk as well. There is Robert needing a strong man in Dragonstone - But Axell Florent was there most of the time, so that is weaker now. Then there is Robert just being a dick, which works with everything we know of the relationships of the two, and with the next quote.

“And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm’s End,” Cersei said thoughtfully. “The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by

rights . . . if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert

gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter.”

“He took it as a slight.”

“It was meant as a slight,” Cersei said. - ACOK, Tyrion VI.

Cersei rememebers when Robert gave SE to Renly and Stannis' reaction at the time. Robert has to be actively ignoring Stannis in order not to notice how he takes Robert's handing out of titles. Or when Stannis brings it up over the years several times. Like the Master of Ships deal, Robert feels the need to spread the titles. House Baratheon only numbers 3 people at the time, so Robert starts 2 new cadet houses. Stannis gets Dragonstone not because Robert needed a strong man, as punishment, because he was the heir or any of that. He got it because Robert didn't want to give him SE. It's 100% within Robert's rights, since it's his titles. It is also 100% a dick move and anybody would be pissed off if he was in Stannis' place. It wasn't given by age, or accomplishment, or need. It was given in that order to fuck with Stannis, because Robert just does'nt like Renly slightly less than he does'nt like Stannis, and there is no way that Robert was not intending for that. Robert barely knows a child Renly at the time, so it's not that he likes Renly better. It's that he likes Stannis less.

Stannis is pissed for the same reason that he later claims the crown despite overwhelming odds when a bastard sits the throne - It's against the rules. Fighting for Robert in two wars and getting that treatment, alongside the Edric Storm incident and the usual mocking in the Small Council just adds to the insult.

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The reason Stannis isn't involved in their discussions, is because he bailed without a word.

And considering that it's 2 days away with a raven, and this is a hypotherical discussion about an invasion led by a boy who is about -7 months old, how is that a justified reason not to consult the Master of Ships?

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i dont think he wanted robert dead. there were a lot of factors that caused him to leave kings landing. he still held a grudge because renly got storms end when he felt like he should have. theres no rule against it but stannis was next in line by age and the storm lands were the baratheon stronghold. stannis thought that if robert was in kings landing then him being the next in line should get the house lands. more than that he knew that renly was given storms end to slight him more than anything. stannis wasnt happy about it but he accepted it.



when arryn died stannis started to get nervous. im sure he got suspicious when he tells arryn of such a secret then he drops dead shortly after. no one in kings landing liked him and he knew that there was no way for him to go about spreading the word of cersei and jaime. the final straw was robert deciding to name ned as hand of the king of stannis though.



ned and robert had barely, at least not in face that i can remember, spoken since the greyjoy rebellion. stannis always followed orders and did what he was told. his position was one of true work and nothing more. ned never did anything except live normally in winterfell. i got the impression that it wasnt just being slighted again (even though he was pissed about it) and it was more that he knew if he was hand he would have a lot more power, and protection, to try and prove that joffrey wasnt the true heir and that he was.



if anything i think he would have tried to keep robert alive just because it was his brother. he didnt like robert but he was always by the books in terms of his duty. when shit started to hit the fan he had to assume that he stood the most to gain by leaving kings landing and trying to plan his own strategy. i always figured that he thought hed end up like jon arryn if he stayed in kings landing any longer.


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Robert honoured his brothers by granting them Dragonstone and Storm's End when they could have gone to his sons and also giving them seats on the small council. Stannis was rewarded with Dragonstone because Robert was confirming him as heir presumptive. It also gave Stannis the chance to start his own cadet branch of House Baratheon. It was meant as an honour. Renly was too young to have done anything in Robert's Rebellion but Robert still decided to honour him anyway because that's the sort of person he was.



Stannis is like Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister in that he perceives slights where none were intended. It's one of his biggest faults. Neither Ned nor Hoster Tully were rewarded for their parts in Robert's Rebellion and neither of them sulked about it. When Ned finally was rewarded by being named Hand of the King, Stannis actually sulked even more because he believed he should have received another honour!



Many posters have given very good reasons as to why Stannis hid on Dragonstone, which would be valid arguments for most characters. But it is in opposition with everything we know about Stannis. Stannis is not the type of man to run scared. He is not the type of man to neglect his duty. Yet this is what he did. Why? Once he became king, Stannis bestirred himself and was willing to fight to the death for the throne. Having argued that Robert wouldn't believe him, he changed his tune after he became king and sent those ravens and expected everybody to magically believe him. Stannis's actions in AGoT were out of character and the only explanation I can think of is that he was too busy sulking.



That being said, I don't think Stannis ever wanted Robert dead. More likely he just didn't care particularly and/or didn't realise how much immediate danger he was in.


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