Fraternal Order of Police Threads, Local #3

[The Notorious]

"There are some concerns for citizens' rights in regard to body cams, also. For example, if you've effectively turned every officer into a walking surveillance camera, could a person be later charged for an offense that the camera caught but the officer missed? That's in addition to the general technical and legal issues presented - i.e., storage space and duration, FOIA applications (Hello, Youtube!), etc."

Thank you for raising the huge privacy and funding issues, BrandonStark. funding could be acquired via raising tax, but I don't think there is no solution to the privacy issue. Body Cameras effectively means everywhere police goes will be recorded, even your house. If you think traffic cam and survellaince cams were huge invasion of privacy then you won't like what bodycams gonna do.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

OAR,

Well, look at the Cleveland story I link to. The officer in that case was fired. He just didn't stay fired. Do you really want an officer back on the force who lost his badge and service weapon in a drunken bar fight? Much less other officers who have gotten their jobs back after doing things their Union rep says were worse?

How many of your anicdotes will stay fired?

Possibly all of them, I can't know. The last one appears to have been fired almost a decade ago. In any case, I'm not resting my point on any of these anecdotes. I suspect that thorough research could find many more fired cops, particularly as my very cursory search relied on firings that occurred recently and were newsworthy.

Do I want the officer in the Cleveland story back on the force, or any of the officers the union claimed were worse? At a glance, absolutely not. But these are claims related to a single case in a single police force. I don't consider this story very valuable for deciding whether we should want to eliminate police unions.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

There's also the issue that police (and prison guards') unions lobby for policies such as the War on Drugs, civil forfeiture, mandatory minimum sentencing, and police militarization. Of course there's nothing we an do but complain about it, because there's no way to stop a group of people from lobbying for their own interests, even if their interest runs against that of the public.

[Relic]

It's amazing to see the level of moral bankruptcy the far left has sunk to in their insane demand to dismantle public unions and the right of collective bargaining. I think what we are seeing is the capturing of the far left by the far right as they intertwined and merged.

Moral bankruptcy. Lol. Sounds like you need to convince 93% of Americans to union up. Or do you not support that sort of behavior in the private sector?

The rest of your statement is hyperbolic, at best, and can easily be flipped around. Suddenly libertarians support unions? I have nothing against unions, as long as they dont get in the way of a civil servants sworn duty to SERVE.

[The Notorious]

You can counter lobby. Or elect people into office who will support your ideology. See how successful the rightwing has done to roll back teacher unions.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

OAR,

If I were arguing in favor of eliminating police unions your point would be stronger. I'm arguing Unions have a responsibility to their memberships to self-police because such self policing would improve public trust of Unions and show Unions can see the forest for the trees.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

OAR,

If I were arguing in favor of eliminating police unions your point would be stronger. I'm arguing Unions have a responsibility to their memberships to self-police because such self policing would improve public trust of Unions and show Unions can see the forest for the trees.

Ok then, I admit I misunderstood you because I definitely thought you were on the "eliminate public sector unions" side of the discussion. Do I think police unions could do better? Absolutely, I agree with you. I still don't agree with your characterization of the difficulty of firing police, but we're not that far apart overall.

[The Notorious]

Moral bankruptcy. Lol. Sounds like you need to convince 93% of Americans to union up. Or do you not support that sort of behavior in the private sector?

The rest of your statement is hyperbolic, at best, and can easily be flipped around. Suddenly libertarians support unions? I have nothing against unions, as long as they dont get in the way of a civil servants sworn duty to SERVE.

I am not the one arguing for getting rid off due process rights ensured by collective bargaining of public unions. It sad how you can't see your movement is being captured by libertarians and the far right.

Public vs. Private sector union? Just subscription to that mindset is already a sign of capture. The point isn't to dismantle public unions but to expand private sector unions and ensure they have the same rights and protection.

[The Notorious]

OAR,

If I were arguing in favor of eliminating police unions your point would be stronger. I'm arguing Unions have a responsibility to their memberships to self-police because such self policing would improve public trust of Unions and show Unions can see the forest for the trees.

Where are the evidences of lack of self-monitor, scot.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

See the Cleveland link. If they are arguing an officer who loses his badge and firearm in a bar fight shouldn't be fired because other officers have done worse and kept their jobs that Union is not self policing.

[awesome possum]

Where are the evidences of lack of self-monitor, scot.

Today I learned, you don't read the news.

[The Notorious]

You have an anecdotal evidence countered by another anecdotal evidence showing otherwise.

Try googling harder; at this point it's looking as stale and inane as scot repeatedly bringing up the one and only story about that town with an iq limit in police hiring and pretending it's a national trend.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Here's a bit more from June 2014 about the policy implications of the New London case:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/can-someone-be-too-smart-to-be-a-cop/192106/

[The Notorious]

Can you find any other cases besides the New London case, scot?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I've looked without success. That said once you have the unappealed 2nd Cir. Ruling why would someone else challange on the same grounds? making such cases difficult to locate because few attornies would be willing to challange settled precedent like the New London case and allowing such policies to exist in plain sight with little noise because the question is "settled".

[The Notorious]

Lol, such a long winded "no" answer scot.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

I said "no" first with a reasonable explanation for why there isn't more news regarding IQ limits. They're legal and challanging them is a waste of time at this point regardless of how stupid such a policy is.

[The Notorious]

Scot, you still have failed abysmally so far to show that iq limit in police hiring is a widely adopted practice across the country.

[The Notorious]

"Chuck Canterbury, president of the national Fraternal Order of Police, issued a statement Sunday accusing politicians in general of "bemoaning the lack of trust of police by the minority community" without addressing the issues of poverty, unemployment and education that "create a toxic environment which breeds crime."

Poverty, unemployment and education are and have always been the roots of the problem. Don't get the noises from the morally bankrupt fringe left and far right distract us from the true fight, progressives.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Because I don't have several days or a small staff of reasearchers to submit FOIA requests to departments around the country doesn't mean something isn't true. In other words an absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absense. It's clear that is the policy in New London. I'm going to keep looking and if I find something more concrete I'll update.