Jeor vs Jorah and taking the black.

[Snoop Arryn]

Does any one else find the story 2 men of Bear Island a bit ironic?

The only information I can remember or really find about why Jeor took the black and joined the Night's Watch, was that he did it in favor of his son Jorah. Presumably so Jorah could be lord of Bear Island. A noble move if your a Stark. And I guess I could buy that Northern Houses still mostly honor serving the NW.

Then, some time later, Jorah is actually convicted of a crime in Westeros. He participates in the Slave trade. He decides to flee rather than face his punishment, and he becomes a mercenary in the free cities. Eventually joining Dany and crew.

Couldn't Jorah have taken the black and joined his father on the Wall? Why didn't he? Does anyone think there was anything more to Jeor taking the black that meets the eye? I'd be interested in hearing any theories anyone might have.

[Agamemnon]

I'll speak as to why Jorah didn't take the black for his crimes. He was infatuated with his wife to such an extent that he sold the poachers in the first place. He was too far gone for honor at that point (and still is IMHO) and couldn't see the shame he had brought upon himself and his house. Instead of submit to The Ned he took the source of his "joy" and ran across the narrow sea. He thoughts long as they were together they would be happy. It's not till years later that he sees his errors as he tells Dany.

Don't know why Joer took the black, maybe he was old and bored with bear island and wanted a bit of scenery change. And Jorah was probably pressuring him to retire what with the high maintenance broad and all.

[Agamemnon]

Edit: double post

[Snoop Arryn]

There is not a "time limit" for taking the black is there? Even if it was sometime later when he felt his remorse, Jorah could still take the black at anytime, correct?

[David Selig]

Couldn't Jorah have taken the black and joined his father on the Wall? Why didn't he?

Because being in the NW sucks. It's cold, it's far from everywhere, you can't have a family, most of your fellow watchmen are criminals, etc. There is a reason that only a handful of people join each year (if that) without being forced to do it.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Couldn't Jorah have taken the black and joined his father on the Wall? Why didn't he?

Because he was enthralled by his wife Lynesse ? It was to buy her expensive gifts that he got ruined and turned to selling poachers to slavers to pay his debts.

[Gibzit]

The punishment for selling people to slavery is death, that is why he couldn't take the black.

[Snoop Arryn]

Because being in the NW sucks. There is a reason that only a handful of people join each year (if that) without being forced to do it.

Agreed. Which makes Jeor's story that much more ironic.

[David Selig]

The punishment for selling people to slavery is death, that is why he couldn't take the black.

Huh? A lot of people sent to the Watch have committed treason and other crimes punishable by death.

[Snoop Arryn]

The punishment for selling people to slavery is death, that is why he couldn't take the black.

Brynden Rivers was condemed to death and took the black. Unless that was a special case where Aegon allowed it, I didn't think the death penalty would prevent anyone from taking the black. I could be wrong I guess.

[Trigger Warning]

If he did it all for his wife why would he join the Night's Watch and leave her?

[Snoop Arryn]

If he did it all for his wife why would he join the Night's Watch and leave her?

Well after she went goldigging with another dude in Lys.... Just seems like the NW and joining his father was an option. It is curious that he didn't take it. Though, I guess it's benificial for our narrative.

[Pox Americana]

I think the specific reason for Jeor's abdication was that Jorah needed the Lordship to be in a league with the Hightower daughter he was courting.

Would you choose freezing your balls off with a bunch of hairy dudes waiting to be murdered in your sleep by wildlings vs. slumming around in Lyseni pleasure houses, drinking Volantene wine, and selling your sword in the disputed lands?

Not a hard choice, my friend. The worst part about being on the Wall would be having to face your father every day. Your father who sacrificed his own Lordship, gave you the family sword, and the responsibility of carrying on the family legacy and name. Jorah threw all that away. That shame would haunt him forever, well beyond Jeor's forgiveness of his sins.

[David Selig]

I think the specific reason for Jeor's abdication was that Jorah needed the Lordship to be in a league with the Hightower daughter he was courting.

How would that work? Didn't that courtship happen over a few days like 2000 miles away from where Jeor was?

[sj4iy]

Brynden Rivers was condemed to death and took the black. Unless that was a special case where Aegon allowed it, I didn't think the death penalty would prevent anyone from taking the black. I could be wrong I guess.

I was under the impression that if you are nobility, you would have the choice between execution and taking the black:

“My lord, what will happen to him? Will they kill him?”

“As to that, I cannot say, lad. I mean to send a letter. I knew some of the king’s councillors in

my youth. Old Pycelle, Lord Stannis, Ser Barristan... Whatever your father has done, or hasn’t done, he is a great lord. He must be allowed to take the black and join us here. Gods knows, we need men of Lord Eddard’s ability.”

Like anything else, there's a different set of laws for nobility than there is for the common man.

[Snoop Arryn]

I think the specific reason for Jeor's abdication was that Jorah needed the Lordship to be in a league with the Hightower daughter he was courting.

Would you choose freezing your balls off with a bunch of hairy dudes waiting to be murdered in your sleep by wildlings vs. slumming around in Lyseni pleasure houses, drinking Volantene wine, and selling your sword in the disputed lands?

Not a hard choice, my friend. The worst part about being on the Wall would be having to face your father every day. Your father who sacrificed his own Lordship, gave you the family sword, and the responsibility of carrying on the family legacy and name. Jorah threw all that away. That shame would haunt him forever, well beyond Jeor's forgiveness of his sins.

Makes sense I guess. But isn't that kind of the point of the NW, to restore honor and make amends?

[jet199]

There is something funny going on with the Mormonts. There is a reason why we are not told where the first Lord Mormont came from.

I think both Jeor and Maege have connections with the wildlings (huband to bears and all that) and maybe Jeor thought that it would be better him dealing with them than someone who just thought they were all savages. Also Bear Island is probably quite boring and Jeor may have thought he might as well go do something interesting and meaningful at the wall because there was no way Jorah could fuck up running a bunch of farms and fishing boats from a wooden fort in peacetime.

[thenedstark]

Also, Jorah wanted to score big time and become a playa. He probably wanted to get in Dany's pants as soon he'd heard of her. Being in the NW is not conducive for such things.

[Pox Americana]

How would that work? Didn't that courtship happen over a few days like 2000 miles away from where Jeor was?

Hmm, now I can't find the textual support. I might be fudging information from the DVD extras, but yes, Jorah wins the tourney, crowns Lynesse, and asks for her hand that night. I guess he could've been Lord of Bear Island at that time.

@Snoop: The Night's Watch provides legal amnesty in return for service, but it doesn't personally resolve you of your demons. Jorah let his father down. If he went to the Wall he would've had to face that every day. He would've been safe from The Ned and Ice, however.

[Snoop Arryn]

Also, Jorah wanted to score big time and become a playa. He probably wanted to get in Dany's pants as soon he'd heard of her. Being in the NW is not conducive for such things.

Agreed. Once he pledged to Viserys and met Dany, he was obviously pre-occupied. But wasn't he on his own in Essos for well over a year post-Lynesse and pre-Targaryen duties. I guess at some point durring that time he had to have been in contact with Varys to set up his mission with Dany.