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The root causes of Stannis love


Tiliana

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I have noticed a very big group of Stannis fans around the general ASOIAF fanbase (here, reddit, even YouTube comments and various videos themselves devoted to "the Mannis") and at first I was perplexed. For I am not a fan of Stannis, and find myself either indifferent or annoyed with the character in equal portions while reading the books. So this interesting question of ascertaining the foundations of Stannis devotion became something for me to figure out. What is it about this character that inspires so much love, much more in fact than what should be justified by the way he acts or the page time he is given? To say that he is just as popular as say, Sansa a character we have followed in great deal since the very first pages would not be out of line. In fact, in some corners he is even favored over Jon Snow as the "hero" of this tale! And of course, he is preferred over Dany on several corners of the internet as ruler over Westeros. So what's the deal with this? I found that the answer to this is a collison of several factors, that remarkably create a certain aura of greatness around this character

I: His mortal victory in the War of Five Kings

One of the most frequent comments I see regarding Stannis is something along the lines of "He is the only King out of the starting five who survived, Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!". While it is plainly obvious on a purely rational basis that this accomplishment is meaningless as House Lannister as a whole is still the overall victor of the conflict, this idea of Stannis the survivor is so effective as creating admiration for several reasons. Firstly, the War of the Five Kings and everything related to it makes up a great portion of this series, as is the idea of death being an ever present danger and influence on every character. Stannis surviving while every other King "drop like flies" as Tyrion would put it, makes him above and beyond the others and more worthy of your adulation. Also, it puts him in a firmer category of character; readers can get behind Stannis without fearing that he will die suddenly (even though we can't be sure of that) and that he will at least accomplish something that makes his death meaningful. Stannis is chosen by the narrative gods as the King of Kings, and these gods did not end their gifts to his Grace there

II: Stark despondent readers putty in Stannis' hand

ASOS is a dark novel, and among its tragedies we have many that hit the Stark house, of whom 99% of readers are greatly attached to. We see Sansa married off to Tyrion, as Tywin closes his hand around the Starks. We have Catelyn, mired in constant grief as each chapter after the next reveals blow after blow to her son, and the Stark chances of winning the war. We have Arya desperately trying to reach her family but being side-tracked constantly. Bran wanders northward, unsure of his destiny. And Jon is undercover, trying his best to return to his brothers and deal with the wildling threat. This all culminates in the Red Wedding chapter that spells the end of the Starks as a political power and all hope of avenging Ned, bringing the kids home and rebuilding their lives blown away far into future. And of course, that's not the end of it, as Jon is made by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne to parlay with Mance and kill him, spelling his end as well. This looked like the end for Jon, as he had no hope of escaping this situation alive. But then here comes Stannis, to save the day and deliver him from his doom. A Stark was saved from death, and it was Stannis who did it. This is just the beginning of the Stark reader's support for Stannis

Then we go to ADWD, which sees Lord Commander Jon, conselling Stannis and telling him where to go and how to win the North back. For many readers, the same of which likely are over the moon with Manderly, see the retaking of the North and reestablishment of the Starks are the rulers of the North as the event with the most emotional capital so to speak. And it is upon this wave of emotion that Stannis makes his explosive rise in popularity. He is the one leading the men and kicking out the Ironborn, who readers are also conditioned to despise greatly. And this is just the appetizer, Stannis then turns his sight on the Freys and Boltons, who are perhaps the absolute most despised characters by your average reader. Jon, the protagonist of this Northern storyline in truth, plays more of a passive and support role for Stannis. He waits for word of Stannis, like a mother does for word of her son in the frontlines and hopes he will be successful. This is also reinforced in general, by Davos, and not any Stark or Stark-affiliate but instead a member of Team Stannis being the one who is going to get Rickon back, as key to reinstalling the Starks as what Stannis is doing. So it seems like Team Stannis is the ones who are collecting the emotional capitial built up over three books with most readers while other characters are not. Indeed, when Jon tries to get in on the riches he is stabbed. Of course he'll be back, but probably not in time play a role in perhaps the emotional climax of the series, much moreso than anything to do with the scantly seen Others as of this juncture

This is why Stannis' victory here is a foregone conclusion by most, and that his retaking of the North makes him the most worthy figure as King, even though this action isn't wholly impressive objectively nor does it make any statements as to how good of a King he would be. And this is also why the "saving the Kingdom to win the Throne" line is seen as much more powerful than anything Daenerys is doing. Daenerys is trying to save people, instead of winning a throne but these people, don't have 1500+ pages of emotional scaffolding to their plight do they? Same of Jon, whose efforts with the wildlings, while in the right place, do not have the flashy victory aspect of Stannis breaking Mance Rayder's host. This reason is also why Stannis is outright considered a hero, even though he should be more in the realms of anti-hero or gray character, and that criticism of Stannis being labelled a hero or a "Mannis" is often met with harsh rebuke or rather heated arguement.

This point is aptly summed up by the follow quote by Wylla Manderly

“They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb,” she said. “He was our king! He was brave and good, and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.”

III: The Stannis brand of humor

Many also indicate that Stannis' humor is another aspect they greatly enjoy about the character. They love his dry witticisms, his scathing indictments of others. Indeed, many of his lines are funny. But one of the most important reasons why he is described as the most funny is that GRRM does not write Stannis as a joker or a character who is exactly meant to make you laugh like Tyrion or Jaime. This adds the unintended humor effect which bolsters him as a funny character because he is unaware that he is being funny, which makes him all the more hilarious! His manners are so brusque they are the joke themselves.

IV: "One True King"

Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne is considered the best one because he is Robert's true heir. Robert is a King we get to know, somewhat sympathize with, then he dies. Eddard reveals to the reader that Stannis is to follow him, and this reinforces that it is Stannis, not poor Daenerys far away and not coming any closer to the Throne, who has the right of birth. This creates the easy to follow and powerful "One true King" legend around Stannis that is justified and reinforced by reasons I-III. He is the lawful heir, the one who justice dictates should sit the Throne, not the false Baratheons nor Daenerys, Renly or any other pretender.

Daenerys has the advantage of having a PoV over Stannis but the problem is she does not follow Robert. She is instead the heir of Aerys, a mad tyrant or Rhaegar who by all accounts was quite irresponsible and is generally reviled. Not to mention neither of these characters are alive when the story starts, and this it is harder and less appealing to see their dynasty continue through Dany than the infinitiely more likeable Baratheons, friends of the Starks, and in Stannis' case the savior of the Starks. GRRM has made Stannis support the only logical choice at this point, unless he should die. Even then, many would see Shireen over Daenerys, or any other Targaryen

V: Stannis as the underdog

Stannis is perceived as an underdog to many more theory conscious readers. They believe he will play second fiddle to Jon, be roasted by Dany, become the Night's King.. well you get the gist. No matter what, things ends badly for Stannis.

"He is a fake Azor Ahai, and is a lie to be slain."

"He doesn't have any big prophecies surrounding his character, he's expendable!"

Rather than this making readers fall out of love with the doomed Stannis, quite the opposite effect occurs. This creates a situation by which Stannis reaps the benefits of being "the only one still alive" thus not an underdog in any sense of the word compared to say Renly or Robb, but also be pitied as ultimately below Jon and Dany in the hierarchy. This (in some cases at least within the Stannis fandom) makes Stannis, a non-PoV, more connected to the reader than a character such as Tyrion or Arya who are meant to be the real underdogs.

VI: A ruthless pursuit of justice

Stannis is a just man, by the accounts of many. There is that famous Varys quote which claims he is a truly just man, and thus terrifying. His quotes of about cleansing the court clean or paying everyone what they deserve highborn and low, while ruthless and unfeeling speak on a deeper level to readers who crave a force of pure righteous judgement in a world bereft of such a thing in 99% of cases. They love that about Stannis, and overlook the unsavory aspects of it, such as Davos losing his fingers even after saving Stannis' life.

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Nice post OP. Compared to most "why do you like X" threads I think you've managed to avoid any condescension or attacks in your analysis.

I think you're onto something with all of these. With regards to the one true king point I find that one especially puzzling, though I think you're right. For one, Robert was a pretty awful king and a bad person so why we'd want his lineage to continue rather than the longer/greater Targ lineage, I am not sure. Second, for all Stannis knows, he is a pretender - unlike the reader, he's got no direct evidence that his nephews are bastards, only suspicion. So stannis' claim can hardly be said to be rock solid in-universe - it's only with additional reader knowledge that no one else has.

The stark thing is true I think largely. People who started off loyal to the starks sort of transfer their hopes onto stannis - revenge on the Boltons, and the Freys, these same readers love manderley also.

I tend to think that there's domething demographic about stannis love in that the most dedicated fans seem to be youngish men. Why mostly youngish men are attracted to stannis Id rather not speculate because that could come across as stereotyping or condescending.

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Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

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I have noticed a very big group of Stannis fans around the general ASOIAF fanbase (here, reddit, even YouTube comments and various videos themselves devoted to "the Mannis") and at first I was perplexed. For I am not a fan of Stannis, and find myself either indifferent or annoyed with the character in equal portions while reading the books. So this interesting question of ascertaining the foundations of Stannis devotion became something for me to figure out. What is it about this character that inspires so much love, much more in fact than what should be justified by the way he acts or the page time he is given? To say that he is just as popular as say, Sansa a character we have followed in great deal since the very first pages would not be out of line. In fact, in some corners he is even favored over Jon Snow as the "hero" of this tale! And of course, he is preferred over Dany on several corners of the internet as ruler over Westeros. So what's the deal with this? I found that the answer to this is a collison of several factors, that remarkably create a certain aura of greatness around this character

I: His mortal victory in the War of Five Kings

One of the most frequent comments I see regarding Stannis is something along the lines of "He is the only King out of the starting five who survived, Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!". While it is plainly obvious on a purely rational basis that this accomplishment is meaningless as House Lannister as a whole is still the overall victor of the conflict, this idea of Stannis the survivor is so effective as creating admiration for several reasons. Firstly, the War of the Five Kings and everything related to it makes up a great portion of this series, as is the idea of death being an ever present danger and influence on every character. Stannis surviving while every other King "drop like flies" as Tyrion would put it, makes him above and beyond the others and more worthy of your adulation. Also, it puts him in a firmer category of character; readers can get behind Stannis without fearing that he will die suddenly (even though we can't be sure of that) and that he will at least accomplish something that makes his death meaningful. Stannis is chosen by the narrative gods as the King of Kings, and these gods did not end their gifts to his Grace there

II: Stark despondent readers putty in Stannis' hand

ASOS is a dark novel, and among its tragedies we have many that hit the Stark house, of whom 99% of readers are greatly attached to. We see Sansa married off to Tyrion, as Tywin closes his hand around the Starks. We have Catelyn, mired in constant grief as each chapter after the next reveals blow after blow to her son, and the Stark chances of winning the war. We have Arya desperately trying to reach her family but being side-tracked constantly. Bran wanders northward, unsure of his destiny. And Jon is undercover, trying his best to return to his brothers and deal with the wildling threat. This all culminates in the Red Wedding chapter that spells the end of the Starks as a political power and all hope of avenging Ned, bringing the kids home and rebuilding their lives blown away far into future. And of course, that's not the end of it, as Jon is made by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne to parlay with Mance and kill him, spelling his end as well. This looked like the end for Jon, as he had no hope of escaping this situation alive. But then here comes Stannis, to save the day and deliver him from his doom. A Stark was saved from death, and it was Stannis who did it. This is just the beginning of the Stark reader's support for Stannis

Then we go to ADWD, which sees Lord Commander Jon, conselling Stannis and telling him where to go and how to win the North back. For many readers, the same of which likely are over the moon with Manderly, see the retaking of the North and reestablishment of the Starks are the rulers of the North as the event with the most emotional capital so to speak. And it is upon this wave of emotion that Stannis makes his explosive rise in popularity. He is the one leading the men and kicking out the Ironborn, who readers are also conditioned to despise greatly. And this is just the appetizer, Stannis then turns his sight on the Freys and Boltons, who are perhaps the absolute most despised characters by your average reader. Jon, the protagonist of this Northern storyline in truth, plays more of a passive and support role for Stannis. He waits for word of Stannis, like a mother does for word of her son in the frontlines and hopes he will be successful. This is also reinforced in general, by Davos, and not any Stark or Stark-affiliate but instead a member of Team Stannis being the one who is going to get Rickon back, as key to reinstalling the Starks as what Stannis is doing. So it seems like Team Stannis is the ones who are collecting the emotional capitial built up over three books with most readers while other characters are not. Indeed, when Jon tries to get in on the riches he is stabbed. Of course he'll be back, but probably not in time play a role in perhaps the emotional climax of the series, much moreso than anything to do with the scantly seen Others as of this juncture

This is why Stannis' victory here is a foregone conclusion by most, and that his retaking of the North makes him the most worthy figure as King, even though this action isn't wholly impressive objectively nor does it make any statements as to how good of a King he would be. And this is also why the "saving the Kingdom to win the Throne" line is seen as much more powerful than anything Daenerys is doing. Daenerys is trying to save people, instead of winning a throne but these people, don't have 1500+ pages of emotional scaffolding to their plight do they? Same of Jon, whose efforts with the wildlings, while in the right place, do not have the flashy victory aspect of Stannis breaking Mance Rayder's host. This reason is also why Stannis is outright considered a hero, even though he should be more in the realms of anti-hero or gray character, and that criticism of Stannis being labelled a hero or a "Mannis" is often met with harsh rebuke or rather heated arguement.

This point is aptly summed up by the follow quote by Wylla Manderly

III: The Stannis brand of humor

Many also indicate that Stannis' humor is another aspect they greatly enjoy about the character. They love his dry witticisms, his scathing indictments of others. Indeed, many of his lines are funny. But one of the most important reasons why he is described as the most funny is that GRRM does not write Stannis as a joker or a character who is exactly meant to make you laugh like Tyrion or Jaime. This adds the unintended humor effect which bolsters him as a funny character because he is unaware that he is being funny, which makes him all the more hilarious! His manners are so brusque they are the joke themselves.

IV: "One True King"

Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne is considered the best one because he is Robert's true heir. Robert is a King we get to know, somewhat sympathize with, then he dies. Eddard reveals to the reader that Stannis is to follow him, and this reinforces that it is Stannis, not poor Daenerys far away and not coming any closer to the Throne, who has the right of birth. This creates the easy to follow and powerful "One true King" legend around Stannis that is justified and reinforced by reasons I-III. He is the lawful heir, the one who justice dictates should sit the Throne, not the false Baratheons nor Daenerys, Renly or any other pretender.

Daenerys has the advantage of having a PoV over Stannis but the problem is she does not follow Robert. She is instead the heir of Aerys, a mad tyrant or Rhaegar who by all accounts was quite irresponsible and is generally reviled. Not to mention neither of these characters are alive when the story starts, and this it is harder and less appealing to see their dynasty continue through Dany than the infinitiely more likeable Baratheons, friends of the Starks, and in Stannis' case the savior of the Starks. GRRM has made Stannis support the only logical choice at this point, unless he should die. Even then, many would see Shireen over Daenerys, or any other Targaryen

V: Stannis as the underdog

Stannis is perceived as an underdog to many more theory conscious readers. They believe he will play second fiddle to Jon, be roasted by Dany, become the Night's King.. well you get the gist. No matter what, things ends badly for Stannis.

"He is a fake Azor Ahai, and is a lie to be slain."

"He doesn't have any big prophecies surrounding his character, he's expendable!"

Rather than this making readers fall out of love with the doomed Stannis, quite the opposite effect occurs. This creates a situation by which Stannis reaps the benefits of being "the only one still alive" thus not an underdog in any sense of the word compared to say Renly or Robb, but also be pitied as ultimately below Jon and Dany in the hierarchy. This (in some cases at least within the Stannis fandom) makes Stannis, a non-PoV, more connected to the reader than a character such as Tyrion or Arya who are meant to be the real underdogs.

VI: A ruthless pursuit of justice

Stannis is a just man, by the accounts of many. There is that famous Varys quote which claims he is a truly just man, and thus terrifying. His quotes of about cleansing the court clean or paying everyone what they deserve highborn and low, while ruthless and unfeeling speak on a deeper level to readers who crave a force of pure righteous judgement in a world bereft of such a thing in 99% of cases. They love that about Stannis, and overlook the unsavory aspects of it, such as Davos losing his fingers even after saving Stannis' life.

Nice detailed post. Being a Stannis fan from the get go, I've always wanted him to be king. Firstly cause he is Roberts heir, and the justice aspect of getting rid of the 'filth' in KL, as the scheming and corruption there is ridiculous. The more and more a look at Roberts reign the more of a useless king I see him as giving the Lannisters so much power for basically nothing, giving someone all the gifts coming late to the party (but thats kinda going of subject). Plus his attitude of never give up is also a thing people like about him.

Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

So you have read WOW and DOS? No you havnt. We have no clue what GRRM has planned for Stannis, but he is not just a filler thats for sure

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Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

5/7 books in. He's not mid series filler. Even if he dies on the first page of winds he will have done so much already

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Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

Without Stannis the story would be completely different. He's an essential part of the story.

It's not a "movement". It's just a bunch people who like his character, and a large number of them believe that he's going to die sooner or later.

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5/7 books in. He's not mid series filler. Even if he dies on the first page of winds he will have done so much already

True. He'll still be more plot relevant than Jon ever was or will be even if he dies in the first paragraph of TWoW, and I like Jon.

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Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

Does that make Jon Snow whole series filler?

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What is this, version #157,693 of the same thread... already?



Stannis Baratheon.


How do I begin to explain Stannis Baratheon?


Stannis Baratheon is flawless.


I hear his teeth are insured for 10,000 golden dragons.


I hear he does R'hllor commercials... In the North.


His favourite movie is Papadopoulos & Sons.


One time he met Melisandre on a beach. She told him he was the Lord's Chosen.


One time he defeated a Wildling army north of the Wall.


It was awesome.


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Nice post OP. Compared to most "why do you like X" threads I think you've managed to avoid any condescension or attacks in your analysis.

I think you're onto something with all of these. With regards to the one true king point I find that one especially puzzling, though I think you're right. For one, Robert was a pretty awful king and a bad person so why we'd want his lineage to continue rather than the longer/greater Targ lineage, I am not sure. Second, for all Stannis knows, he is a pretender - unlike the reader, he's got no direct evidence that his nephews are bastards, only suspicion. So stannis' claim can hardly be said to be rock solid in-universe - it's only with additional reader knowledge that no one else has.

The stark thing is true I think largely. People who started off loyal to the starks sort of transfer their hopes onto stannis - revenge on the Boltons, and the Freys, these same readers love manderley also.

I tend to think that there's domething demographic about stannis love in that the most dedicated fans seem to be youngish men. Why mostly youngish men are attracted to stannis Id rather not speculate because that could come across as stereotyping or condescending.

I think Robert's line continuing is preferable because we are conditioned through Ned, a character hand-tailored to be adored, that Robert is "not so bad" even though he is in reality, quite terrible. He is an entity with some positive attached to it, and shown through the reader as a fully realized, and fleshed out character. So even if Rhaegar is better than him, it doesn't matter, because Rhaegar is just a figment, an abstraction of which we can project negativity onto with nothing to really defend against it.

And you're right, Stannis' claim is quite ridiculous without reader knowledge. But this point of view is almost never actually used when things are being evaluated, omniscience is projected on characters and they are judged as such, quite harshly I may add

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To the OP, for me, I like Stannis simply because he's a flawed three-dimensional character who has many qualities both good and bad. He's very much like Jaime Lannister in there's both repulsive and sympathetic qualities to the man. Stannis is a dour, humorless, unpleasant person but he also has a devotion to the job of being King as well as the idea it's a burden rather than a reward. He's (semi) devoted to an insane fire god but said fire god may actually be the only thing which can save Westeros. He's a kinslayer and adulterer but with reasons for both as well as guilt.



Plus how can you not like a guy who says not to put beloved brother on a missive because it'd be a lie?


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Stannis is mid-series filler, originally intended to keep a low key conflict going during the 5 year gap while the young Starks were in training.

With the 5 year gap scrapped, so too Stannis' s purpose has come to a sooner than originally intended end.

The Stannis fandom is a perplexing, yet ultimately doomed movement.

Indeed. They have been doomed since E-Ro departed the board. A moments silence, if you please.
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5/7 books in. He's not mid series filler. Even if he dies on the first page of winds he will have done so much already

People often seem to confuse story and history. In a hypothetical history book about the War of the Ring, Merry and Sam would get maybe a line each, Pippin not even that, while whole chapters would be dedicated to Saruman, Denethor and Theoden. But in the actual "Lord of the Rings", it's the opposite. Merry, Pippin and Sam are members of the Fellowship, while mighty kings and wizzards are background characters. In the Narnian stories, Aslan may be the big boss who kicks ass and saves the day on a regular basis, but he's still a supporting character for the kid heroes of the book, be that the Pevensies, Eustace, Shasta or whoever. So is Stannis.

Jon Snow is the bigger contributor to the plot just because the plot is, in a big part, describing what Jon Snow has been up to. Forty plus chapters make him one of the primary protagonists. No chapters make Stannis "a page in someone else's history book", regardless how much he protests it.

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People often seem to confuse story and history. In a hypothetical history book about the War of the Ring, Merry and Sam would get maybe a line each, Pippin not even that, while whole chapters would be dedicated to Saruman, Denethor and Theoden. But in the actual "Lord of the Rings", it's the opposite. Merry, Pippin and Sam are members of the Fellowship, while mighty kings and wizzards are background characters. In the Narnian stories, Aslan may be the big boss who kicks ass and saves the day on a regular basis, but he's still a supporting character for the kid heroes of the book, be that the Pevensies, Eustace, Shasta or whoever. So is Stannis.

Jon Snow is the bigger contributor to the plot just because the plot is, in a big part, describing what Jon Snow has been up to. Forty plus chapters make him one of the primary protagonists. No chapters make Stannis "a page in someone else's history book", regardless how much he protests it.

Only in the show.

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