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Ned and Tywin, a Contrast in Leadership Styles


Roose on the Loose

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The best evidence of Ned's excellent leadership is the way all his children adore him. When Robb or Jon have to make executive decisions, they routinely ask themselves what Ned would do. Arya never questions the morality of killing Dareon. If Ned thinks killing NW deserters is the right thing to do, then it is by definition.



Ned also has the fierce loyalty of most of his soldiers and lords. People have charged into battle yelling For Ned. I don't anticipate anybody charging at his foe screaming For Tywin.



Having said all that, Ned was a chump and Tywin was a player. Tywin spied on his friends and his enemies. He won the War of the 5 Kings with ravens. Tywin understood that a good spy is worth a thousand swords, but Ned never did.



Tywin ultimately followed Ned to the grave because he made too many enemies. Some say that Oberyn was already poisoning Tywin before Tyrion shot him. Ned's naivete left him vulnerable to a lot of things, but he was always safe from being assassinated by his own progeny.




So what leaders, present or future could provide the correct balance of Tywin and Ned? And where is that balance?


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LF, Tyrion and Tyrell swords won the war.

Both were hard men. Tywin was more versed in southern politics then ned and knew that what was morally right was not always the best thing to do. In saying that I ultimately feel as leaders they're even enough, just very different. Of course ned is the man you want to work for though if you ask me

As for the future I can see jon having a nice balance between the two of them. Before that I feel robb and Brynden were on the cusp of great partnership. Jaime also has potential and can make use of his reputation without actually having to do bad (see his actions with edmure)

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The best evidence of Ned's excellent leadership is the way all his children adore him. When Robb or Jon have to make executive decisions, they routinely ask themselves what Ned would do. Arya never questions the morality of killing Dareon. If Ned thinks killing NW deserters is the right thing to do, then it is by definition.

Well they don't love or adore him, but Cersei and Tyrion both at least try to emulate Tywin when they are given power. And I disagree with the commonly-made claim that Tywin was a horrible father to to the twins. He was stern and had high expectations for them. Tyrion was different of course

Ned also has the fierce loyalty of most of his soldiers and lords. People have charged into battle yelling For Ned. I don't anticipate anybody charging at his foe screaming For Tywin.

And yet, the Starks were ultimately betrayed by their bannermen while the Westerlands houses continue to remain completely loyal to the Lannisters (even when they appeared doomed early in the war). Of course that's more of a knock against Robb than Eddard, but I wouldn't discount the loyalty Tywin earned from his bannermen.

Tywin ultimately followed Ned to the grave because he made too many enemies. Some say that Oberyn was already poisoning Tywin before Tyrion shot him. Ned's naivete left him vulnerable to a lot of things, but he was always safe from being assassinated by his own progeny

Until it's confirmed, the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" theory really shouldn't be used as evidence against Tywin's leadership. But I agree, his relationship with Tyrion was a real weakness of Tywin's. Of course there's always the possibility that Tyrion was not Tywin's progeny but actually the Mad King's, and Tywin suspected as much, which would make his behavior more understandable (while still unjustified)

So what leaders, present or future could provide the correct balance of Tywin and Ned? And where is that balance?

I doubt GRRM is ever going to give us a "perfect" leader in ASOIAF, but I'm curious to see how people answer. I agree with ^Frey Pie that Jon may end up striking a good balance. Hear Me Meow recently had a good thread about whether Jon would have to eventually commit evil for the greater good

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So what leaders, present or future could provide the correct balance of Tywin and Ned? And where is that balance?

I may catch some backlash for this, but Sansa.

She shares Ned's relative view of right and wrong, though not having been tested in the same way he was makes that a bit hard to state for a certainty. From Littlefinger she is learning the political maneuverings that Tywin can lay claim to, but of ocurse her willingness to organize brutal deeds has also not yet been tested.

A lot will depend on what level of power she personally winds up with, but I could see Sansa striking a balance between the two. Said baance will likely be thinking just brutally/cruelly enough to stay ahead of the snakes politics forces you to deal with, but sticking to certain principles of justice.

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The worst leadership we see is from Stannis. He communicates with his followers primarily by punishing them, even Davos. This is a big part of why he has so few followers. Even so, at least a third of my bosses have been from the Stannis school of leadership.

Uh-oh...prepare for this thread to be derailed

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The other thing that impressed me about Ned was Arya's recollection of how he would keep an open chair at supper where his family would be joined by his Steward, his Armorer. his Master of Horse or some such. In this way he would keep abreast of his operations and earn the loyalty of the people he was counting on. Too bad he didn't realize how much he was counting on LF.


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Something that Ned and Tywin had in common was that their bannermen both respected AND feared them. We are all versed in Tywin Lannister's views on fealty, but let's not forget Ned Stark. Ned's bannermen (mostly) loved him, but if you recall Lady Dustin discussing Ned with Theon, she said that all Northern lords we constantly aware of Ned's sense of justice, and that he served as his own headsman. Jorah fled Westeros when he heard Ned was marching to Bear Island, and Roose Bolton is obsessively discreet about his traditions when it comes to Eddard Stark.



They all knew Eddard to be a good man, just and honest, but they also all knew that ONE slipup and he was coming to take your head. Nobody in the Westerlands looked at Tywin Lannister as a good or moral man, but they knew he could reward leal service and would ruthlessly punish dissent.



In a political sense, they were both good Wardens.


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Until it's confirmed, the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" theory really shouldn't be used as evidence against Tywin's leadership. But I agree, his relationship with Tyrion was a real weakness of Tywin's. Of course there's always the possibility that Tyrion was not Tywin's progeny but actually the Mad King's, and Tywin suspected as much, which would make his behavior more understandable (while still unjustified)

You can't dismiss one theory due to it being a theory, then use another to back your own points.

For me, Ned and Tywin are extremes. One inspires loyalty and is a great leader due to his morals, honour and sense of justice. The other inspires loyalty and is a great leader due to ruthlesness, reputation and pragmatism, as well as rewarding loyal subjects.

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I do think Ned was a good balance of leadership for the North. Even years later after his death men are willing to die for him and his, he had a good reputation and I think he did good for his people and family.

Tywin was a good leader I iust think his enemies became his house enemies. I don't think the Lannisters are loved(not that Tywin cares he's the only Lannister who doesn't want to be loved)much in the west(the current Lannisters)I think he made to many mistakes concerning his family. I do think Tywin is a good leader in certain areas but I don't like him as a character, person, etc... I certainly prefer Ned to be my lord.

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I may catch some backlash for this, but Sansa.

She shares Ned's relative view of right and wrong, though not having been tested in the same way he was makes that a bit hard to state for a certainty. From Littlefinger she is learning the political maneuverings that Tywin can lay claim to, but of ocurse her willingness to organize brutal deeds has also not yet been tested.

A lot will depend on what level of power she personally winds up with, but I could see Sansa striking a balance between the two. Said baance will likely be thinking just brutally/cruelly enough to stay ahead of the snakes politics forces you to deal with, but sticking to certain principles of justice.

Yea, Sansa often reflects on ruling with love. I think she was impressed with the way the Tyrells used food as a PR weapon after Blackwater.

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Ned's naivete is exaggerated, I think. He didn't seem to have a problem with using Theon Greyjoy as a leverage against his father. At the end of the day, he even stooped to bribing the gold cloaks. He had a problem with that, sure, but did it nevertheless. Also, he spent his entire adult life ruling the North. Which is not, as should be obvious by now, a land of straightforward, honorable people. It's full of cunning, ambitious, sometimes insidious mofos; it bit Robb on the ass once upon a time, and now it's biting Roose. But under Ned's rule the land worked like a clockwork. He must have known how to successfully deal with vipers. But his KL challenge was: vipers, unfamiliar turf, outnumbered and with a few huge conspiracies already going on when he got on the scene.



BTW, Tywin might have won the WO5K with ravens... but mostly, he won it with luck. From King Bob getting boared at the exactly right moment, to Theon unexpectedly playing the best game of chess of his life, and succeeding in taking Winterfell. I'm half convinced that the legendary Lannister fortune came from Lord Tywin playing roulette on a regular basis.


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Tywin : Inspired Respect, Loyalty, Fear of Retrinution {When someone did some disloyalty} and Hatred from one of his progeny, who ultimately killed Tywin.


Ned : Inspired Respect, Loyalty , Fear of Justice and Love from most of his bannermen and his children {all 6} adore and worship him and try to emulate him in their daily lives and decisions.


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Stannis is the one imho. He is known as a just man, and still doesn't lack the ruthlessnes to do what is neessary to maintain his rule. He is a good battle commander and does indeed , in contrast to popular believe, inspire loyality, although I have to admit he isn't known for his charisma.

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I do think Ned was a good balance of leadership for the North. Even years later after his death men are willing to die for him and his, he had a good reputation and I think he did good for his people and family.

Tywin was a good leader I iust think his enemies became his house enemies. I don't think the Lannisters are loved(not that Tywin cares he's the only Lannister who doesn't want to be loved)much in the west(the current Lannisters)I think he made to many mistakes concerning his family. I do think Tywin is a good leader in certain areas but I don't like him as a character, person, etc... I certainly prefer Ned to be my lord.

I think in the westerlands everybody respect the name lannister but not tywin
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Eddard Stark was kinder, but he was no Tytos Lannister (a good man to be a bannerman for!). Tywin was able to control his realm through high-handed bureaucratic smackdowns. The Ned sat his people down at his table and listened to them. The loyalty that Ned inspired will last for generations, whereas the loyalty to Tywin doesn't even extend to his grandchildren. No one is going to march on Sunspear for Tywin's granddaughter, but rando Northmen will literally spring out of the woods to behead Boltons for Ned. In the end, the Ned was more effective in maintaining his dynasty than Tywin.

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I agree that Ned and Tywin were diffrent type of leaders Ned rule through love and loyality Tywin by fear


so are Tywin and Stannis




while Tywin use everything but the Mountain using a big spork to send a message, Stannis, compare to Tywin is more low key in sending a message.


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