You Know Stabbing, Jon Snow

[George W. Lannister]

Was just thinking about Jon's experience with pointy ends, and am trying to think of the different scenarios that follow. Honestly, before now I had only thought about what happens to Jon, but not about the plot in general.

Here are a couple of thoughts about what is born out of Jonny-goes-dead-dead:

• SCENARIO 1: Bowen Marsh and his coalition take over. Tormund and his men either fight to the death or retreat (south of the Wall, of course) to regroup. The Queen's Men are killed or captured...with Marsh doing some of the deed. Always a doubter of Jon and Stannis, he decides to honor the letter's requests and sends Selyse/Shireen/Mance's babe (actually Gilly's babe) down towards Winterfell. If Stannis and/or the Northern bannermen have taken charge of Winterfell by then, be ready for a Night's Watch disbanding, complete with bonus Stannis hangings! The problem with this is, as their host is nearly arrived to Castle Black, the Others come a knockin'.
  
• SCENARIO 2: Others. Cornhole. Everyone. This is a very plausible next step, as the entire series has been building towards an Others invasion for quite a while. Think about it:
  • Jaime POV: Snowing in the Riverlands
  • Kevan POV: Snowing in King's Landing
  • Jon's last POV, last sentence: This quote, as many others have noted on this site, may be a coincidence but may be a sign of the Others preparing for an attack:

    He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

• SCENARIO 3: Tormund's men, along with a piecemeal group of Night's Watchmen who were pro-Jon, manage to put down both Bowen's men and the Queen's men. Mostly through killing, but also some through capture. Tormund manages to safeguard Jon's body (I'm assuming he'll still be alive, but still reserving the thought that he could be dead). The Others eventually find a way to invade, but not in the beginning of TWOW.

[SevasTra82]

I may be the only one left on this boat...but I'm still holding on to the idea that there won't be any "Others Invasion".

Everyone just assumes they are evil creatures that will attack for no reason. Why would they attack? What's their reasons? What are they after? Very little is known about them and their motives. GRRM is not going to just make The Other's some sort of evil force that will invade for no reason and no motive. He's a smarter writer than that, and has always said he does not believe in a "true good" and a "true evil".

History is not always what it is cracked up to be....and I think Samwell will uncover a lot of hidden historical knowledge at the Citadel that will show what a lot of people perceive is factual as actually being false. Remember, there are texts that exist ONLY deep down in the heart of the Citadel (the same texts that apparently Jagan Hagar is after also).

I may be completely wrong...but I gaurentee you that there is a twist with The Others somewhere. It's just not GRRM's style to write a "pure evil force" with no back-story. There is more to it that hasn't been explained yet.

[sbdx80]

I may be the only one left on this boat...but I'm still holding on to the idea that there won't be any "Others Invasion".

Everyone just assumes they are evil creatures that will attack for no reason. Why would they attack? What's their reasons? What are they after? Very little is known about them and their motives. GRRM is not going to just make The Other's some sort of evil force that will invade for no reason and no motive. He's a smarter writer than that, and has always said he does not believe in a "true good" and a "true evil".

History is not always what it is cracked up to be....and I think Samwell will uncover a lot of hidden historical knowledge at the Citadel that will show what a lot of people perceive is factual as actually being false. Remember, there are texts that exist ONLY deep down in the heart of the Citadel (the same texts that apparently Jagan Hagar is after also).

I may be completely wrong...but I gaurentee you that there is a twist with The Others somewhere. It's just not GRRM's style to write a "pure evil force" with no back-story. There is more to it that hasn't been explained yet.

But then who are the Others? Should we open a new thread?

[Roughspun]

SCENARIO 1: Bowen Marsh and his coalition take over.

To me, it seems that’s not even Marsh’s interest. I guess he’d even accept being punished for what he did.

[baxus]

There's still a question of the Wall.

From what we're told, Others may not be able to cross the Wall as long as it's standing.

We know that the one leading Sam and Gilly to the Wall couldn't follow them under the Wall.

Wights may be able to cross, since the ones who attacked Mormont did manage to get to the Castle Black but it's still unclear if they were actually Wights at the time of coming through the gates or if they were in some sort of incubation period or whatnot.

I believe the Wall itself is much more of a hindrance to Others than the few men defending it.

[nickdt]

There's still a question of the Wall.

From what we're told, Others may not be able to cross the Wall as long as it's standing.

We know that the one leading Sam and Gilly to the Wall couldn't follow them under the Wall.

Wights may be able to cross, since the ones who attacked Mormont did manage to get to the Castle Black but it's still unclear if they were actually Wights at the time of coming through the gates or if they were in some sort of incubation period or whatnot.

I believe the Wall itself is much more of a hindrance to Others than the few men defending it.

If the Wights can come trough the Wall, they can destroy it for the Others.

[alienarea]

IIRC it was snowing and misty when the last group of wildlings with Borroq passed the wall. The Others could have sneaked in as mist?

[I S**t Gold]

Snip.

I'm convinced there will be an Others invasion of Westeros and that a lot of people will die because of it. I tend to agree with you they're not a pure evil force though. I think they're tied to winter. These winters happen every so often and I've been wondering if it's like the immune system of Westeros. When everything gets too mad and out of balance winter happens and takes care of all these problems for you. Of course, from the POV of almost every POV character, except maybe Bran, they're going to come across as pretty fucking evil regardless, what with the baby taking and the murdering. But they aren't human, so in terms of morality it's kind of more like hunting than a massacre.

[Drogo]

Was just thinking about Jon's experience with pointy ends, and am trying to think of the different scenarios that follow. Honestly, before now I had only thought about what happens to Jon, but not about the plot in general.

• SCENARIO 1: Bowen Marsh and his coalition take over. Tormund and his men either fight to the death or retreat (south of the Wall, of course) to regroup. The Queen's Men are killed or captured...with Marsh doing some of the deed. Always a doubter of Jon and Stannis, he decides to honor the letter's requests and sends Selyse/Shireen/Mance's babe (actually Gilly's babe) down towards Winterfell. If Stannis and/or the Northern bannermen have taken charge of Winterfell by then, be ready for a Night's Watch disbanding, complete with bonus Stannis hangings! The problem with this is, as their host is nearly arrived to Castle Black, the Others come a knockin'.

SCENARIO 3: Tormund's men, along with a piecemeal group of Night's Watchmen who were pro-Jon, manage to put down both Bowen's men and the Queen's men. Mostly through killing, but also some through capture. Tormund manages to safeguard Jon's body (I'm assuming he'll still be alive, but still reserving the thought that he could be dead). The Others eventually find a way to invade, but not in the beginning of TWOW.

I am almost positive that the Watch only has a few hundred currently at castle black and most of the Queen's men are old or cripple. While the wildlings number in the thousands. Im very confident that Tormund and his men slaughter many if not most of the conspirators and take control of the wall, with Watchmen loyal to Jon working with them somewhat. I'd imagine a ruling council of Mel, Tormund, Val, some Night's Watch leader, and maybe the Queen running things. I also thought that Jon sent away most of the people loyal to him as he didn't feel he could trust others to hold castles, thereby surrounding himself with enemies.

[Turnips in the Night]

I'm convinced there will be an Others invasion of Westeros and that a lot of people will die because of it. I tend to agree with you they're not a pure evil force though. I think they're tied to winter. These winters happen every so often and I've been wondering if it's like the immune system of Westeros. When everything gets too mad and out of balance winter happens and takes care of all these problems for you. Of course, from the POV of almost every POV character, except maybe Bran, they're going to come across as pretty fucking evil regardless, what with the baby taking and the murdering. But they aren't human, so in terms of morality it's kind of more like hunting than a massacre.

The prologue of AGoT has the Others mocking Ser Waymar Royce. That's not just hunting to re-establish balance.

[I S**t Gold]

I'm saying the Others start to emerge when things are fucked up. Whether they take pleasure in it or not is beside the point. They could be hunting to establish balance and coincidentally enjoy doing it very much.

[Turnips in the Night]

Gotcha. Still, while they might not be evil in the "demons from the 7 hells" sense, they probably are still the "kill everything sentient that's not us" evil.

[SnowHeart]

I may be the only one left on this boat...but I'm still holding on to the idea that there won't be any "Others Invasion".

Everyone just assumes they are evil creatures that will attack for no reason. Why would they attack? What's their reasons? What are they after? Very little is known about them and their motives. GRRM is not going to just make The Other's some sort of evil force that will invade for no reason and no motive. He's a smarter writer than that, and has always said he does not believe in a "true good" and a "true evil"

Well we have already seen the others and their wights attack the rangers for 'no good reason' several times, so I don't think they are poor misunderstood creatures if that's what you're getting at.

I'm with you in the reasons thing though, we need to find out more about the others and their motives. Maybe this is where Benjin comes back into things?

[I S**t Gold]

Gotcha. Still, while they might not be evil in the "demons from the 7 hells" sense, they probably are still the "kill everything sentient that's not us" evil.

Exacitiggly. I'm not sure it's possible to come to a conclusion on the morality of the Others as individuals. They all seem to be dedicated to the same goal even if it's not clear what that goal is. I'm not sure how much free will the average Other has, but I suspect it's very little. That would back up the 'not evil' argument for me personally, since they aren't making a moral choice at all. A daddy rabbit will try to eat his own kids. That doesn't make it an evil baby killer, it's just obeying some fucked up biological instinct.

[Turnips in the Night]

The CotF and the giants seem capable of making individual decisions. I'd be disappointed if the Others have a hive mentality or are simply following instinct. I'd much rather read about complex villains who struggle with their choices.

[RobertRivers]

I'm thinking it's going to be others. How they got through the wall I don't know but, I have a few ideas.

Btw long time lurker until about a half year ago, and this is my first post. I like how many ideas have been thrown around and how they made me think of the books in a completely different way.

[Gilly1990]

I reckon Jon might have survived the attack by skinchanging in to Ghost at the last minute. One of the last things he did was call him. That could also explain why he "never felt the fourth knife". Ghost might then savage the attackers, along with the pro-Jon Night's Watch men; and team Jon will prevail. I also reckon Stannis will return when he hears what has happened to Jon; and could start running things.

[Bob the Fiddler]

I think it is Scenario 3 perhaps quickly followed by Scenario 2. I think Jon may survive Scenario 2 while almost everyone else dies because he wargs into Ghost and can escape.

[blake.rushing.77]

Could the waters between bear island and the far north freeze over during the winter and the others stroll across?

[Segeeth]

Could the waters between bear island and the far north freeze over during the winter and the others stroll across?

Then why exactly is The Wall exists?