Why are the armies in the WotFK so much bigger than any other previous conflicts? GRRM early mistake?

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is quite noticeable that the War of the Five Kings involved armies of unprededented size in the history of Westeros. And I'm not just talking about the difference between pre- and post-Targaryen unification Westeros. Even during the Targaryen era, armies did not seem to rival the sizes that we see in the current book series.

Here I note a few examples:

The biggest loss of life during the Dance of the Dragons, was the Battle of the Lakeshore, involving Roderick Dustin's Winter Wolves and the Green supporting Lannisters under Lord Lefford, where 2000 men were killed. This in a dynastic civil war where the entire realm was divided between two rival factions. Even during Robert's Rebellion, where the entire Targaryen Dynasty was at stake, the biggest army raised by the combined Targaryen faction numbered around 40k troops. This was in the final battle of the Trident.

And yet, during the War of the Five Kings, we see 35k Lannisters, 20k Northmen, 20k Riverlords and an 80k Reach/Stormland army in the field. The scale of the War of the Five Kings seems to be out of proportion to any conflict that has occurred in the history of Westeros. The total number of men in the field dwarfs anything we have read of before.

Which got me to thinking: Did Martin overstate the sizes of the armies in the early books, and change his mind about the scale at which he wants these conflicts to take place? Because in everything written after Storm of Swords he appears to severely scale down any army size he writes about, whether it be in the past or the present.

If the defeat of 2000 Lannisters at the Battle of the Lakeshore can be described as a turning point in the Dance of the Dragons, then the Battles during the WotFK were truly epic in scale, and not a fair reflection of the normal scale of conflict experienced in Westeros. Certainly, by stating that the 55k men from the combined Reach and Westerland armies at the Field of Fire was unequivocally the largest host raised in the history of Westeros Martin seemed to be making a point that the scale of battles we saw in the current books may have been unique in the extreme.

Basically, I am wondering if he didn't realize that he was going over the top a bit with the likes of the 80k men he attributed to Renly's army in Book 2, and took a conscious effort to scale things down a bit after that point.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Yes I was wondering about this too. There are bigger armies in the current story than before (mentioned in TWOIAF).

But I think it's a possibility that in the past there were wars all the time, a lot of people died so they couldn't gather a big army. But after Aegon's conquer there weren't many wars so more people was born and lived until became a grown up. So the warriors were accumulating, and bigger armies appeared to the current story.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yes I was wondering about this too. There are bigger armies in the current story than before (mentioned in TWOIAF).

But I think it's a possibility that in the past there were wars all the time, a lot of people died so they couldn't gather a big army. But after Aegon's conquer there weren't many wars so more people was born and lived until became a grown up. So the warriors were accumulating, and bigger armies appeared to the current story.

But I specifically noted that the current armies are bigger than anything gathered even during the Targaryen era.

[James Arryn]

It's a noticeable trend, I agree.

My impression is that he (at least twice) wanted to convey narrative inevitability by sheer volume. Especially with Renly, the story only really works if his winning the throne/defeating the Lannisters is a foregone conclusion before shadowbaby. That's what creates the dramatic tension and bittersweet irony Martin loves.

From there, once you've gone big, it's hard to go back to 'normal' without seeming inconsequential to a degree. The most obvious way out is to question the historiography.

[C.T. Phipps]

To be fair, I think Renly's forces were meant to ridiculously impossible huge.

And 2000 killed is different than however many FIELDED.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It's a noticeable trend, I agree.

My impression is that he (at least twice) wanted to convey narrative inevitability by sheer volume. Especially with Renly, the story only really works if his winning the throne/defeating the Lannisters is a foregone conclusion before shadowbaby. That's what creates the dramatic tension and bittersweet irony Martin loves.

From there, once you've gone big, it's hard to go back to 'normal' without seeming inconsequential to a degree. The most obvious way out is to question the historiography.

Very good point. I guess it is sometimes easy to miss the narrative imperatives and motivations behind some of the numbers. Indeed, the sense of despair and inevitability experienced by Catelyn after seeing Renly's massive host would not have been as realistic if Renly had only half the number of troops he had. Similarly, the impact of Renly's assasination would not have been as powerful if his strength before that point had not been as overwhelming.

The problem of course, is that the use of this device creates unintended consequences later in the story, such as a sense of anticlimax and lack of impact when armies of 5000 or 10000 men are supposed to be taken seriously.

[Nyrhex]

Armies of that scale are not exactly unheared of. The King who Knelt did so with 30,000 men at his back. The Field of Fire saw 55,000 men from the Westerlands and the Reach (described as the largest army until that point in Westeros). The Young Dragon lost 60,000 men in Dorne over the course of a year. The power of houses changes. Harrenhal's lord can host the largest tourney in living memory, have vast swaths of land and great power, and end up broke and weakened a short 15 years later.

Wars did not stop with the unification of Westeros. Where before every genration saw 2 or 3 realms fighting each other, after the unification you have every generation seeing a war (as part of Westeros or directly involved) or more as well. The story is set in a time when the baby-boom generation after the War of Ninepenny Kings through Robert's Rebellion is in fighting age. When Renly is talking with his officers Tarly warns that the available manpower is not depleted, and that while they fight and bleed against the Lannisters Stannis may grow as strong, if not stronger. Considering that according to Davos, Stannis' letter had people chanting his name in most places befoe the Lannisters spread thier own slander, and that Stannis' host grows from 3,000 in the prologue to 5,000 at Storm's End, and considering that there are a bunch of lords either playing two or more sides (Swan) or staying out of the War (Hightower), I don't think that we can say that the numbers are purely for the sake of narrative.

[Gibzit]

Armies of that scale are not exactly unheared of. The King who Knelt did so with 30,000 men at his back. The Field of Fire saw 55,000 men from the Westerlands and the Reach (described as the largest army until that point in Westeros). The Young Dragon lost 60,000 men in Dorne over the course of a year. The power of houses changes. Harrenhal's lord can host the largest tourney in living memory, have vast swaths of land and great power, and end up broke and weakened a short 15 years later.

Wars did not stop with the unification of Westeros. Where before every genration saw 2 or 3 realms fighting each other, after the unification you have every generation seeing a war (as part of Westeros or directly involved) or more as well. The story is set in a time when the baby-boom generation after the War of Ninepenny Kings through Robert's Rebellion is in fighting age. When Renly is talking with his officers Tarly warns that the available manpower is not depleted, and that while they fight and bleed against the Lannisters Stannis may grow as strong, if not stronger. Considering that according to Davos, Stannis' letter had people chanting his name in most places befoe the Lannisters spread thier own slander, and that Stannis' host grows from 3,000 in the prologue to 5,000 at Storm's End, and considering that there are a bunch of lords either playing two or more sides (Swan) or staying out of the War (Hightower), I don't think that we can say that the numbers are purely for the sake of narrative.

Im pretty sure that the Hightowers sent some men to Renly, I don't see how there could be 80k without them.

[Talleyrand]

As to the smaller army size in the Dance the best I can think of is this: If you know the other size has several dragons capable of roasting armies to death are you really going to gather all your available men into one easily spottable and burnable blob?

[Talleyrand]

staying out of the War (Hightower), I don't think that we can say that the numbers are purely for the sake of narrative.

Where does the Hightowers staying out thing come from doesn't Cat spot their banners and I'm pretty sure Renly counts them among his supporters

[Gibzit]

From the wiki:

At the start of the War of the Five Kings, the Hightowers follow the Tyrell lead, declaring for Renly Baratheon on the outbreak of the conflict.

Marg's mom is a hightower.

[James Arryn]

Where does the Hightowers staying out thing come from doesn't Cat spot their banners and I'm pretty sure Renly counts them among his supporters

They formaly declare for Renly, so he can truthfully count them so, but I'm not sure how much if any material support they sent. Dance aside, they historically choose prominent persons but very inconspicuous involvement as a whole. Ie, high profile individuals lending the appearance of support, but actually keeping all their powder dry.

[Talleyrand]

Marg's mom is a hightower.

Even people who don't like the Tyrell's have got to admire that they're heads and shoulders above the other houses in terms of their marriage game. I mean in the ruling generation they've got ties to almost all of the major Reach houses (save Florent) and to royalty

[Ser Pearce]

Well it could be just population growth over time means there is more men to join the armies (of course, during the middle ages, there wasn't a notable population boom but it still increased)

[James Arryn]

Even people who don't like the Tyrell's have got to admire that they're heads and shoulders above the other houses in terms of their marriage game. I mean in the ruling generation they've got ties to almost all of the major Reach houses (save Florent) and to royalty

The Hightowers are pretty much at the same level when it comes to influential marriage alliances. Both have very extended families married to almost everyone in the Reach.

They were Freying before Freying was a thing.

(is it a thing?)

[James Arryn]

Well it could be just population growth over time means there is more men to join the armies (of course, during the middle ages, there wasn't a notable population boom but it still increased)

There ought to have been a Vale/Dorne boom (relative to rest of Westeros) but it never happened that we know of.

[Nyrhex]

Im pretty sure that the Hightowers sent some men to Renly, I don't see how there could be 80k without them.

Where does the Hightowers staying out thing come from doesn't Cat spot their banners and I'm pretty sure Renly counts them among his supporters

There are a couple of minor Hightower bannermen present in Renly's army, but it seems like Barbrey Ryswell's tactic of sending the least amount of men without being clearly avoiding sending men. Notice how no Hightowers are actually present, and the current lord Florent is taking shelter at Oldtown. They are only actively defending thier port against the Ironborn, but considering that in the past they were a major force in wars, the absence of meaningful Hightower numbers in Renly's army, and of any member of the family, is noticable. They are the second largest city and as rich as the Lannisters. Where the hell are all of thier men?

[Talleyrand]

Where the hell are all of thier men?

Got lost on the way to muster? City folk aren't too good out in the countryside

[James Arryn]

There are a couple of minor Hightower bannermen present in Renly's army, but it seems like Barbrey Ryswell's tactic of sending the least amount of men without being clearly avoiding sending men. Notice how no Hightowers are actually present, and the current lord Florent is taking shelter at the Arbor. They are only actively defending thier port against the Ironborn, but considering that in the past they were a major force in wars, the absence of meaningful Hightower numbers in Renly's army, and of any member of the family, is noticable. They are the second largest city and as rich as the Lannisters. Where the hell are all of thier men?

I disagree with their normal involvement.

The Dance was their lone venture. They sat out the Conquest, the BF Rebs, RR and the Wot5K so far as we know.

[Nyrhex]

Got lost on the way to muster? City folk aren't too good out in the countryside

The city is not the only source of troops. It does help to pay for a large standing force, which is noticably absent. If Manderly can man 50 war galleys from a far smaller city and some refugees from Hornwood, and still have a large standing army and more cavalry than any other lord in the north, Hightower should have far greater numbers. In the books they are clearly stated to have thrice as many as any other Tyrell bannermen, aside from the men of Oldtown.

“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”

“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”

I disagree with their normal involvement.

The Dance was their lone venture. They sat out the Conquest, the BF Rebs, RR and the Wot5K so far as we know.

The BF rebellions saw them support both sides. RR saw the Reach forces staying out of major fight, and during the WOT5K is exactly what we are talking about. So I don't see how you can take it to mean that they have a history of not participating, partially based on thier current actions. Thier current actions is what is being discussed on the background of thier previouse actions.