AGOT Reread- Prologue and Jon

[Paul H]

The prologue was tough to understand fully on a first read of the first book of the series. Re-reading it showed me how much I missed on the first go around. And then the re-re-read showed how much I missed on the second go around. And then the re-re-re-read showed how much more I missed...

[Maester Joergensen]

This is a great idea. Good to be in on a post from the beginning. I love the books so much, but sofar i have been doing more reading than writing on the forum.

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it know?

I liked it well enough. It just didn´t prepare me for how good the rest of the book was going to be. When people say that, at first, they thought that the book was going to be about the fight with the others, I still think they are right. The wars and intrigues of the greenlands are just a prologue to the war against the others, and to establish the lay of the land, before theyre invasion. But what a Prologue! Oboy!

2. Who was your favorite character? Least favorite? Did you even like any of them?

At first i liked Gared and Will, and disliked Royce for being a arrogant snob, who want listen to the advice of his more experienced men, and are thereby leading them into trouble. But he grows on me when he makes the observation that the wildlings can´t have frozen to dead because the wall is weaping indicating "mild" weather. And on the reresdes it dawns on me that in the start you only dislike Royce because you se him through Gareds eyes, and Gared dislike him. But theyre aren´t really any black and white characters, but only grey as GRRM likes to point out. Later in the book we see the world through the eyes of some of the characters that whe figured "evil" earlier, and find that we can follow theyre reasoning for there actions and even kind of like them. That element of the grey character is allready introduced in the prologue IMO.

3. What did you think about GRRM introducing the others in the first chapter of the series? Makes you think maybe they are the most important?

As i stated above, i still think the war aginst the others is the central plotline, and the series will end with a battle against the others. But the preparation for the war against the others are the thing that takes the main space in the series. Like the journey is the main thing in the lord of the rings preparing the different members of the fellowship for the fight against sauron, the war sets the background and developement for the different heroes in the war agains the others. Jon is put in his position as LC of the NW, with Sam as his measter. Bran is on the way to learn some otherkicking magic from the 3EC. Arya is off for here assassin training. Dany has her dragons, and Tyrion are on the way to join here. Jaimes has meet Brienne, and she has IMO started the surfacing of some of his better character traits. Sansa has had a likewise effect on the Hound.

4. Any foreshadowing you noticed? Symbolism? Good quotes?

I liked the way they talked about the wall as weaping. That is kind of a cool frase.

I re-read AGOT a few months ago. Something I bring up for the first chapter is how the Others look at Raymar's sword. Here is the quote:

He[Waymar] lifted his sword high over his head, defiant.

...

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword tembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

Then the other Others emerge and the first Other starts fighting with Waymar.

I've always thought the Other was looking to see if Waymar's sword was Lightbringer. Perhaps not though as that sword would be quite obvious.

Perhaps the other checks the sword to se if it is valyrian steel. In AFfC, we hear that Sam has found notion in Castle blacks library that others are vulnerable to dragonsteel. Jon think that might meen valyrian steel. The other checks if he is armed with valyrian steel. When he is not, he is arrogant for the rest of the fight. Say some mocking words in otherspeak, the other others don´t help him, and when Royce makes his final slash the other makes a lazy parry, because he know that Royces sword is going to splinter. Only valyrian steel is stronger than the others swords.

- Does the fact that the Others show up despite the Wall weeping the past few days say anything to resolve the debate over whether cold weather brings the Others, or the Others bring the cold?

What did kill the wildlings? That is a very good question. And were they really dead. If we asume they were, i would say it was the the cold, and together with the fact that the wall was weaping that lead to the conclusion that the others bring the cold and not vice versa. When Royce meets the other he wonder why it suddently got so cold. The fact that the vilagers were gone suggested that they had been turned into wights. But where did the others take them. Some kind of recruitment area if the others are gathering a army of wights? When they attacked the fist of the first men they used wights. Those must have been dead wildlings i guess. That means they are gattering an army. Pretty interesting. Wonder how big it could be?

[Wired_Irony]

The plan looks good. Here's what it looks like:

Sept. 25- Bran(I) Catelyn(I)

Oct. 2- Daenerys(I) Eddard(I)

Oct. 9- Jon(I) Catelyn(II)

Oct. 16- Arya(I) Bran(II)

Oct. 23- Tyrion(I) Jon(II)

Oct. 30- Daenerys(II) Eddard(II)

Nov. 6- Tyrion(II) Catelyn(III)

Nov. 13- Sansa(I) Eddard(III)

Nov. 20- Bran(III) Catelyn(IV)

Nov. 27- Jon(III) Eddard(IV)

Dec. 4- Tyrion(III) Arya(II)

Dec. 11- Daenerys(III) Bran(IV)

Dec. 18- Eddard(V) Jon(IV)

Dec. 25- Eddard(VI) Catelyn(V)

Jan. 1- Sansa(II) Eddard(VII)

Jan. 8- Tyrion(IV) Arya(III)

Jan. 15- Eddard(VIII) Catelyn(VI)

Jan. 22- Eddard(IX) Daenerys(IV)

Jan. 29- Bran(V) Tyrion(V)

Feb. 5- Eddard(X) Catelyn(VII)

Feb. 12- Jon(V) Tyrion(VI)

Feb. 19- Eddard(XI) Sansa(III)

Feb. 26- Eddard(XII) Daenerys(V)

Mar. 5- Eddard(XIII) Jon(VI)

Mar. 12- Eddard(XIV) Arya(IV)

Mar. 19- Sansa(IV) Jon(VII)

Mar. 26- Bran(VI) Daenerys(VI)

Apr. 2- Catelyn(VIII) Tyrion(VII)

Apr. 9- Sansa(V) Eddard(XV)

Apr. 16- Catelyn(IX) Jon(VIII)

Apr. 23- Daenerys(VII) Tyrion(VIII)

Apr. 30- Catelyn(X) Daenerys(VIII)

May 7- Arya(V) Bran(VII)

May 14- Sansa(VI) Daenerys(IX)

May 21- Tyrion(IX) Jon(IX)

May 28- Catelyn(XI) Daenerys(X)

[The Adequate Jon]

Cool, we'll just be finishing the reread when GRRM finishes ADWD.

Perhaps the other checks the sword to se if it is valyrian steel. In AFfC, we hear that Sam has found notion in Castle blacks library that others are vulnerable to dragonsteel. Jon think that might meen valyrian steel. The other checks if he is armed with valyrian steel. When he is not, he is arrogant for the rest of the fight. Say some mocking words in otherspeak, the other others don´t help him, and when Royce makes his final slash the other makes a lazy parry, because he know that Royces sword is going to splinter. Only valyrian steel is stronger than the others swords.

Good observation MJ!

I like the second paragraph of the prologue: "'Do the dead frighten you?' Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile."

They should

As far as their location, the Fist is pretty much northwest of Castle Black, so it's possible that they're near it, but they would have had to have spent the bulk of their time travelling northwest. However, I got the impression that they were mostly going due north.

I liked Royce much more on the reread. It seemed he was put in a tough possition. He's supposed to track and possibly kill 8 wildlings with only two other men. He's only been on the wall less than half a year. It seems to me he was just trying to be thorough.

[oba]

I liked Royce much more on the reread. It seemed he was put in a tough possition. He's supposed to track and possibly kill 8 wildlings with only two other men. He's only been on the wall less than half a year. It seems to me he was just trying to be thorough.

I still haven't warmed to Ser Waymar. He does get a shout out from Sansa/Alayne in Feast, though. She remembers having a crush on him when he and his father came to Winterfell on their way to taking Waymar to the Wall.

[Jon Targaryen]

Maybe we should do three chapters a week. The chapters in Feast were longer.

[Tarthking]

I just decided to reread AGOT this morning, and decided to check for a re-read thread, and find this! How cool!

Each time I read the Prologue, I'm never impressed by the characters. Whoever said a bunch of red-shirts has it just right. However, I was very impressed with what GRRM did with Gared in the following chapter. If you're not paying attention, you can easily miss that Gared and the executed deserter were the same man. Martin doesn't draw much attention to this. Instead, he just writes a matching description, and lets the reader figure it out, and he repeats this technique all throughout the series. A lesser writer would have had Eddard ask the deserter for his name before he was executed.

I'm also bothered by this early description of the Night's Watch. This is Waymar's first ranging. Why is he giving the orders? I don't remember nobility counting for much among the Night's Watch, especially with Old Mormont. It seems more characteristic that Gared would be showing Waymar the ropes.

They definitely meet Others, which are different from the wights. The wights are just re-animated corpses. The Others are as we see here, and we don't get to see them again until Samwell kills one in ASOS.

A few quotes I thought were interesting:

"Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it."

We're already getting to the fire / ice dichotomy that runs throughout the series. Like fire, ice also burns, but in a different way. The third sentence sounds similar to the description of drowning that come later in the series, making me wonder if we're supposed to link the Others, our supernatural representatives of cold, with the Drowned God and with the Damphair's faction.

The description of the Others and their swords is littered with very telling metaphors. The Others are "hard as old bones", their flesh "pale as milk", their armor changes color so that it's "white as new-fallen snow", "black as shadow", and "dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees". Then he caps it with a nice simile - "The patterns ran like moonlight on water...". Martin uses moonlight again two paragraphs later to describe the Others sword "alive with moonlight". Finally, five paragraphs after that, in describing the other Others (those watching the fight with Waymar), Martin describes them as "patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood."

I think these descriptions were very carefully written. From the very beginning, there is a link between the Others and bones, milk, snow, shadows, grey-green trees (like the Weirwoods), the moon, water, and even facelessness. Somehow, they are all connected.

There is also a connection between fire and blood, and this is an opposing force to the Others. "Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow."

Finally, I liked how Martin emphasized the eyes, and how Waymar's changed color once he became reanimated. From the very beginning, Martin is trying to tell the reader to pay attention to the little details like eye color. Waymar's were described as grey in the beginning of the chapter.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Maybe we should do three chapters a week. The chapters in Feast were longer.

This is true... and most of us have already read AGoT more than once... so perhaps three per week is a good idea... We should move this part of the discussion here. Just to keep the planning seperate from the prologue topic.

[Mad Queen]

I has always bothered me that "the pupil burned blue." Pupil is the opening in the middle of the eye. Does the blue light come from inside the eye? Or did Martin make a mistake and mean to say that the iris burned blue?

[Barba]

I'm also bothered by this early description of the Night's Watch. This is Waymar's first ranging. Why is he giving the orders? I don't remember nobility counting for much among the Night's Watch, especially with Old Mormont. It seems more characteristic that Gared would be showing Waymar the ropes.

I was thinking the same thing. He is at the wall for half a year, and on his first ranging he is giving orders. Wha is all that talk about: "Even lowborn can get high in the night watch"

But then I remembered that Bronze Yohn Royce was with his son during his arrival to the watch, and he probably feasted with Mormont. With martin we do know that knights swear to protect weak, but many times they don't and get away with it. So if he's wiriting series that is 'real' in that aspect, and in wich oathbreakers and traitors can get away, and are later described as oathkeepers, why protect Night watch from this.

He didn't protect nightwatch from real world he is describing. We know Night watchers are digging 'burried treasure', and even that Robb could get his brother out from the watch if he gave 100 met to the watch. We know that there were LC that were even younger than Jon, only because they were sons of the King in the North.

So Bronze Yohn probably promised more men to the NW if they treated his son in a good manner. And LC did that. It is his job to do what is best for the watch, and getting more man is certanly a good thing.

I just noticed this reread, and I didn't yet read the chapter. I'll be back when I do.

[A wilding]

I think that it is clear that a Night Watch is not an egalitarian organisation, despite the hype. It is just a little less rigid in its class structure than the rest of Westeros, but those with useful connections still tend to rise quicker.

Though to be fair, Waymar Royce is a volunteer and a knight, which basically means that his whole life has been spent in military training. That makes him a more useful person than some random impressed lowlife.

In a later chapter Lord Mormont explains his reasoning for giving Waymar the command. He says it was difficult not to give him the chance, but that he sent two of his best men with him to ensure he didn't get into trouble.

[Tarthking]

In a later chapter Lord Mormont explains his reasoning for giving Waymar the command. He says it was difficult not to give him the chance, but that he sent two of his best men with him to ensure he didn't get into trouble.

I forgot about Mormont's later explanation. Thanks, A Wildling. I think you're right that the Watch is not a 100% egalitarian organization. However, I don't think it's set up for the benefit of the upper class, either. I think it's intended to be fairly egalitarian, but none of them can entirely escape their cultural upbringing in a rigid class society. Therefore, the upper class tends to rise fastest even in the Night's Watch, because that's what everyone expects them to do. Or, like Barba mentioned, there may be an element of quid pro quo between the NW leadership and the noble families. The idea of Bronze Yohn bribing Mormont in order to promote his son quickly sounds very plausible, although there is no evidence for it.

Or I could be wrong. It's been awhile since I've read the books, and I'm not very far into the reread.

I has always bothered me that "the pupil burned blue." Pupil is the opening in the middle of the eye. Does the blue light come from inside the eye? Or did Martin make a mistake and mean to say that the iris burned blue?

Mad Queen - I think this was an unintentional mistake on his part. I think most nonmedical laypeople confuse pupils and irises. I know I do. I think it should be interpreted as iris.

[DecayingExponentials]

I'll definitely join in on this re-read. I'll start tonight when I get home.

[Nightwatcher]

I has always bothered me that "the pupil burned blue." Pupil is the opening in the middle of the eye. Does the blue light come from inside the eye? Or did Martin make a mistake and mean to say that the iris burned blue?

I always pictured the pupils being blue. Many people have blue irises, so that feature is not out of the ordinary. However, Martin keeps having living characters first notice the eyes of the wights. Having the pupils blue is definately not normal, and to me it resembles the effect that the Fremen people of Dune had with their eyes.

Anyways, neat idea for a re-read. When I first read the Prologue I didn't like Royce, but I liked Gared. Don't know if that changed. It wasn't earthshattering, but I was surprised by having the early deaths at the end.

[Mad Queen]

I also think that blue pupils are way cooler than blue irises. There must be something inside the eye that is burning blue and the light is leaking through the pupil. A much more interesting concept. However I had always pictured the wights in my mind as having blue irises. Only recently, on my last AGoT reread, I noticed that Martin uses the word 'pupil.'

[oba]

I like the idea of the blue pupil. It makes the wights' stand out.

It's also a good way to tell if your blue-eyed fellow ranger is just not feeling particularly talkative or if he's joined the ranks of the walking dead.

[Nightwatcher]

Just did the proper re-read of the Prologue a few hours ago.

In this read I thought Royce was just trying to do a good job in his assignment. He didn't want to go back with nothing to show for it. His opinion of the weather would have been correct, if not for the Others. No mention here as to why Royce was at the Wall, though I think that is given much later on; I just can't remember the reasons.

This viewpoint is that of Will. He was the one with the scouting info, and he was the last to die. No idea as to when Gared broke for it.

Which leads me to wonder...Gared did not report to Castle Black of what happened. Otherwise the presence of the Others would have been known to Mormont, Aemon, and the rest of the company. It strikes me a bit odd that Gared had 40 years on the Night's Watch and deserted the Wall when he escaped their encounter. He did not report because then future events concerning the Men in Black wouldn't have been such a mystery.

If anything, the Wall could have pushed an urgent appeal for more men at the beginning of the story.

Sure, they had disappearing men before this event, but no one seemed to have lived to tell of it. Gared could of warned everyone else at least...

Speaking of the Others, is there a difference between the and the wights? In my understanding, undead Royce was a wight, and not an Other. I'm not sure though. Were the Others flesh and blood people before?

[Jon Targaryen]

Speaking of the Others, is there a difference between the and the wights? In my understanding, undead Royce was a wight, and not an Other. I'm not sure though. Were the Others flesh and blood people before?

There is almost certainly some difference between the typical wight and an Other. They seem different to Will. People notice a difference after the Fist of the First Men. We don't know if the Others were flesh and blood people before. Some have speculated that Craster's boys may become Others.

[Barba]

Just did the proper re-read of the Prologue a few hours ago.

In this read I thought Royce was just trying to do a good job in his assignment. He didn't want to go back with nothing to show for it. His opinion of the weather would have been correct, if not for the Others. No mention here as to why Royce was at the Wall, though I think that is given much later on; I just can't remember the reasons.

he was younger brother. He didn't do anything, he simply joined the wall, something like Jon.

This viewpoint is that of Will. He was the one with the scouting info, and he was the last to die. No idea as to when Gared broke for it.

Which leads me to wonder...Gared did not report to Castle Black of what happened. Otherwise the presence of the Others would have been known to Mormont, Aemon, and the rest of the company. It strikes me a bit odd that Gared had 40 years on the Night's Watch and deserted the Wall when he escaped their encounter. He did not report because then future events concerning the Men in Black wouldn't have been such a mystery.

If you recall, Gared was killed in the next chapter. He was so terified of the Others, or whatever he saw, that he simply wanted to get out of there as far as possible. He was, IIRC, relieved when ned was killing him. At least that is what Ned thought(IIRC-ned1 chapter AGOT)

If anything, the Wall could have pushed an urgent appeal for more men at the beginning of the story.

Sure, they had disappearing men before this event, but no one seemed to have lived to tell of it. Gared could of warned everyone else at least...

Yeah, and that is what happened when Wright woke up and almost killed Jon. When message arrived in KL, you saw the reaction. They laughed. Only Stannis reacted in SOS. and he wasn't the king at the time of prologue.

Speaking of the Others, is there a difference between the and the wights? In my understanding, undead Royce was a wight, and not an Other. I'm not sure though. Were the Others flesh and blood people before?

Don't know. But I think wright, because that guy that arised from the dead in castle black was also wright. About others - don't have a clue

[Plessiez]

Hmm. One thing that bothers me on rereading the prologue is the apparent contradiction between these two quotes:

Nine days they had been riding ... hard on the track of a band of wildling raiders

"Have you drawn any watches [on the Wall] this past week, Will?"

"Yes, m'lord"

So ... do weeks last longer than nine days in Westeros? I'd have thought seven day weeks would make a lot of sense given the prevalence of the number seven in general. Or is this a mistake?