Tywin Bankrupted House Lannister

[Not Dead Just Broken]

A lot of people on here were undoubtedly surprised when the showrunners decided to make the mines of Casterly Rock exhausted because they aren't exhausted in the books. For me, it raised an interesting question: are the Lannisters broke in the books? I think the answer is a shocking yes. Here's the evidence:

1. The Rains of Castamere. We know now for certain how Tywin extinguished House Reyne. He flooded the underground castle of Castamere where the Reynes had taken shelter. That castle was the top levels of the gold mine from which the Reynes derived their wealth. Now, we know that no one has bothered to dig up the bodies in Castamere since then which means that the second biggest gold mine in the West hasn't been productive in years. Feudal lords get their money from the people beneath them and losing the wealth of House Reyne is bad for the Lannister books.
   
2. The Lannister's Missing Navy. We are told that during the first Greyjoy rebellion Victarion burned the Lannister fleet at port. By the time of our story, the Lannisters still haven't rebuilt their navy. We also know that navies can be built fairly quickly as both Wyman Manderly and Aurane Waters build navies during the course of our story. So, why would Tywin Lannister allow himself to be without a naval force? The simplest and perhaps best answer is that he couldn't afford it.
   
3. Tyg's Doomed Trip: Of course part of the Lannister navy was lost in the Smoking Sea with Tyg. That likely wasn't a cheap voyage. However, it probably didn't bankrupt the Lannisters by itself.
   
4. Funding Robert: The biggest money problem for the Lannisters may be that they gave everything to Robert in the form of a loan. Littlefinger says that the crown owes Tywin 3 million dragons at the start of AGOT. He figures he'll get the 100,000 dragons needed for the Hand's Tourney from Tywin as well. All the evidence is that those 3.1 million dragons are lost as Cersei had zero money to repay the Faith or the Iron Bank.
   
5. Fickle Sellswords: Tywin hires a whole bunch of sellswords to fight for him in the War of the Five Kings. However, he seems to get betrayed more than a man of deep pockets should. He has a Tyroshi sellsword company abandon him at the Whispering Wood. The Brave Companions betray him at Harrenhal. In both cases, they betray the Lannisters for poorer houses. While the Brave Companions may have thought that the war was lost when they betrayed the Lannisters, the Tyroshi do so at the beginning, when the Lannisters are in a position of strength. I surmise that the Lannisters may be having trouble paying their men. Which is supported by...
   
6. Is there gold in the village?: The Tickler, one of the Mountain's Men, is constantly asking about valuables. Now, Tywin believes in intimidation and slash and burn warfare but stealing from Smallfolk? That seems really pointless... Unless, your men aren't getting paid. This could just be the Mountain's greed but it seems really weird for the Lannister armies to be worried about small change.
   
7. Wars are expensive: The Lannisters have had a standing army at the ready for years now. That adds up.
   
8. Why Not Borrow it from Lannisport?: Finally, the strongest evidence that the Lannisters are broke comes from the fact that neither Cersei nor Kevan considering borrowing the money owed to the Faith or the Iron Bank from themselves. Remember: the debts belong to the crown, not House Lannister. If Kevan thought the gold of Casterly Rock was available, wouldn't he use it to pay off the Iron Bank instead of sending Harys Swift to Braavos to beg for time?
   

All of this leads me to believe that House Lannister is well and truly broke whether or not the mines of Casterly Rock are producing.

Also

if Casterly Rock is broke, Tyrion promising the gold of Casterly Rock to the Second Sons becomes a rather empty promise.

[cheezitguy]

Tywin did rebuild the navy

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If they were broke why did Tywin give away Castamere? He could have repaired it decades ago to supplement the Lannisters income.

According to GRRM: "Yes, Lord Tywin certainly replaced the ships that were lost."

Cersei(the Crown) actually had the money to make the repayments. She instead told the Bank to wait till afer the war and used the money to build a new Royal Navy(not to be confused with the Lannister navy)

Kevan actually considers using Lannister money to repay the debts in the final chapter of ADWD.

Soldiers trying to get more plunder is a norm no matter how rich the Lords they serve are. They were not collecting that money for Tywin but for themselves, the spoils of war.

The Lannisters are not the only Lords in the Westerlands who have mines, many Lords do. Even if their own mines had dried up they would still be collecting taxes from the richest realm in Westeros. Look at how rich the Hightowers are without Gold mines. The Lannisters would still be one of the 3 richest houses in Westeros.

The producers wanted to introduce the Iron Bank as a player, saying the Lannsiters are broke is the easiest way to do that.

[The Blue Knight]

Nice theory.

Another strong piece of evidence that the mines of Castamere are exhausted (which in turn supports the theory) is that Tywin would not risk flooding one of the richest mines in Westeros. The water would have destroyed many of the tunneling systems and structures within the mine that provided easy access to its wealth. Also, Tywin wouldn't give Castamere to House Spicer, the descendants of Essosi sellswords, if the mines were still prosperous. It would be much more logical to grant Castamere to one of Tywin's more trusted bannermen or pehaps a cousin of the main Lannister branch, which would ensure high income from the mines.

[MyLittleFinger]

Kevan Lannister disagrees.

[shmewdog]

Well there are theories that the Brave Companions are secretly working for the Dornish, so if those theories are true then they were going to betray house Lannister no matter what.

[Lady Meliora]

Huh. I hadn't thought about the debt owed to House Lannister in those terms, but you make a good point. As to why Kevan or Cersei didn't borrow money to pay the Iron Bank or the Faith, I assume that's because it's Tywin's money and not theirs. After Tywin's death, I believe legally at least, Tyrion becomes his heir unless otherwise stated, as Jaime's Kingsguard vows preclude him from inheriting. But then...Tyrion's an exiled wanted man...so I suppose it does default to Kevan... You might be right. The Lannisters might be money poor at this point.

[shmewdog]

It makes sense that they would run out of gold to mine eventually. The World book states that they have been mining the same rock since the Age of Heroes, and gold is a non-renewable resource.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Huh. I hadn't thought about the debt owed to House Lannister in those terms, but you make a good point. As to why Kevan or Cersei didn't borrow money to pay the Iron Bank or the Faith, I assume that's because it's Tywin's money and not theirs. After Tywin's death, I believe legally at least, Tyrion becomes his heir unless otherwise stated, as Jaime's Kingsguard vows preclude him from inheriting. But then...Tyrion's an exiled wanted man...so I suppose it does default to Kevan... You might be right. The Lannisters might be money poor at this point.

After Tywins death it goes to Cersei, although Kevan seems to be in control of it.

In the last chapter of ADWD:

"The magisters of Pentos have been known to lend money as well,"

said Ser Kevan. "Try them." The Pentoshi were even less like to be of help than the Myrish money changers, but the effort must be made. Unless a new source of coin could be found, or the Iron Bank persuaded to relent, he would have no choice but to pay the crown's debts with Lannister gold.

[Aemond's Eye]

Huh. I hadn't thought about the debt owed to House Lannister in those terms, but you make a good point. As to why Kevan or Cersei didn't borrow money to pay the Iron Bank or the Faith, I assume that's because it's Tywin's money and not theirs. After Tywin's death, I believe legally at least, Tyrion becomes his heir unless otherwise stated, as Jaime's Kingsguard vows preclude him from inheriting. But then...Tyrion's an exiled wanted man...so I suppose it does default to Kevan... You might be right. The Lannisters might be money poor at this point.

Tyrion cannot inherit - he's been convicted of regicide and sentenced; he's a fugitive. To inherit he'd need a royal pardon, but neither Cersei nor any other family member that manages the treasury of House Lannister is going to wait around for that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think either GRRM or Ran debunked that theory shortly after the episode aired.

Either way, if Tywin did bankrupt something was Westeros. he morally bankrupted it after the Rebellion.

[TallTyrion]

The Rains of Castamere. We know now for certain how Tywin extinguished House Reyne. He flooded the underground castle of Castamere where the Reynes had taken shelter. That castle was the top levels of the gold mine from which the Reynes derived their wealth. Now, we know that no one has bothered to dig up the bodies in Castamere since then which means that the second biggest gold mine in the West hasn't been productive in years. Feudal lords get their money from the people beneath them and losing the wealth of House Reyne is bad for the Lannister books.

If Tywin was strapped for cash wouldn't the first move be to reopen Castamere? Him keeping it closed implies they have plenty of money

The Lannister's Missing Navy. We are told that during the first Greyjoy rebellion Victarion burned the Lannister fleet at port. By the time of our story, the Lannisters still haven't rebuilt their navy. We also know that navies can be built fairly quickly as both Wyman Manderly and Aurane Waters build navies during the course of our story. So, why would Tywin Lannister allow himself to be without a naval force? The simplest and perhaps best answer is that he couldn't afford it.

Tywin replaced all the ships that were lost.

So Spake Martin: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Lannister_Fleet

Tyg's Doomed Trip: Of course part of the Lannister navy was lost in the Smoking Sea with Tyg. That likely wasn't a cheap voyage. However, it probably didn't bankrupt the Lannisters by itself.

As you say that wouldn't contribute to bankrupting the Lannisters, losing ships is par for the course and would be a drop in the bucket

Funding Robert: The biggest money problem for the Lannisters may be that they gave everything to Robert in the form of a loan. Littlefinger says that the crown owes Tywin 3 million dragons at the start of AGOT. He figures he'll get the 100,000 dragons needed for the Hand's Tourney from Tywin as well. All the evidence is that those 3.1 million dragons are lost as Cersei had zero money to repay the Faith or the Iron Bank.

People owing you money doesn't make you bankrupt actually quite the opposite since you will be getting interest. Either way it's ridiculous to think Tywin bankrupted himself making loans to his son in law.

He has a Tyroshi sellsword company abandon him at the Whispering Wood. The Brave Companions betray him at Harrenhal. In both cases, they betray the Lannisters for poorer houses. While the Brave Companions may have thought that the war was lost when they betrayed the Lannisters, the Tyroshi do so at the beginning, when the Lannisters are in a position of strength. I surmise that the Lannisters may be having trouble paying their men. Which is supported by...

Is there gold in the village?: The Tickler, one of the Mountain's Men, is constantly asking about valuables. Now, Tywin believes in intimidation and slash and burn warfare but stealing from Smallfolk? That seems really pointless... Unless, your men aren't getting paid. This could just be the Mountain's greed but it seems really weird for the Lannister armies to be worried about small change

Both companies desert after massive Lannister defeats. Vargo is explicit about his reason for betraying Tywin and he doesn't once mention gold.

Armies pillage the places they occupy. That means nothing.

Wars are expensive: The Lannisters have had a standing army at the ready for years now. That adds up.

No longer than anyone else in the series. The Tyrell's have fielded a much larger army for the same amount of time most of which spent in their own land. Tywin's army has been living off the Riverlands this whole time. Two years of war isn't going to bankrupt the Richest family in the series.

Why Not Borrow it from Lannisport?: Finally, the strongest evidence that the Lannisters are broke comes from the fact that neither Cersei nor Kevan considering borrowing the money owed to the Faith or the Iron Bank from themselves. Remember: the debts belong to the crown, not House Lannister. If Kevan thought the gold of Casterly Rock was available, wouldn't he use it to pay off the Iron Bank instead of sending Harys Swift to Braavos to beg for time?

If that's your strongest piece of evidence then you have a problem. Kevan explicitly states that if they can't secure a new loan he will use Lannister gold to pay the debts.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Weak theory

[Taenqyrhae]

From what I saw in TWoIaF, Casterly Rock is not running out of gold anytime soon. The idea that the Lannisters are going broke is a show-only idea.

It makes a kind of twisted sense for Tywin to give a rich gold mine to a foreigner instead of a loyal bannerman. No matter who his vassal is, he's still going to collect the same share of the revenue from the mine, and if it's in the hands of someone with few local political connections, if it becomes convenient in the future Tywin could accuse them of some treachery and take Castamere back and give it as a reward to somebody else. Can't do that as easily if he gives it to a noted and loyal house that is well-respected in the Westerlands.

[AdmiralKyrd]

The producers wanted to introduce the Iron Bank as a player, saying the Lannisters are broke is the easiest way to do that.

This.

[Muggle]

The show wants to white wash cersie is all. They want the reason for her to tell the Iron Back to jump in a lake is because she is broke. Not the truth that she just told them to f-off because she could and she thinks she is above the iron bank.

Its just another case of the show white washing cersie. Making her look better then she is. Its the same reason in season 2 Joffery was the one to have all the bastard children killed. When in fact in the books it was Cersie.

I can go on but i hope you get the point.

[LordStoneheart]

Elio basically said this notion is wrong when "First of his Name" aired.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Also: in the book, Lord Umber plundered a few gold mines during Robb's visit to the Westerlands. No mention of them being depleted.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

No they are far from Broke maybe septon barth was right and casterly rock mines are magically to produce such gold since the age of heroes just wow.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Jabibilrish.