Was Jon Arryn a good or bad Hand?

[Stannatic]

After the rebellion Jon had a very challenging job managing a fractured country that had undergone what was basically a revolution. He managed to broker a peace with the Dornish, whom had every right to go to war over the murders of Elia and her children. He also managed to strengthen the crown by marrying the new King into the richest family in the realm, thereby making any problems the crown had Lannister problems. He also talked the hothead Robert out of killing two innocent children.

However, he never seemed to use his father figure status with Robert and tell him to knock it off with the drinking, whoring and spending the realm into a hole. He let Lannister power grow unchecked at court. He kept Varys on the council and promoted another snake in Baelish to the council.

So was Jon's tenure good, bad, or in between?

[RavenJosh]

He was as good as he could be under the circumstances I'd say. I think that he was more in control of things earlier in Roberts reign and it was only in the last few years of his life that things started to slip, maybe he got tired, because his early years as hand he seems to have been a very good diplomat. Varys has been kept at court by everyone since he was brought there by Aerys because dispite what everyone thinks of him he is damn good at what he does and Littlefinger only got promoted due to the manipulations of Jons wife.

[MyLittleFinger]

How could he stop Robert from drinking and whoring? He's the king, he's 20 and he's been doing that for years prior. The only person that could stop Robert was Robert. If you won't do this, I'll find a Hand that will.

As for keeping Varys and promoting LF. Varys is the best man at his position. I'm sure he provided some intel that helped prove not only his usefulness but that he was loyal to the position not the individual (at least on the surface).

LF was great at his job. What snaky business was he on about that Arryn should have stopped? The snaky business of tripling the crowns incomes? LF got promoted due to his excellent work in Gulltown after Lysa convinced Jon to give him a chance. How many of these highborn lords actually know economics? Seemingly very few since even a guy as smart as Tyrion could hardly comprehend all the details.

The Court had three Baratheon's on it (1 King and 2 of the highest lords in the realm) and Arryn at its head (loyal to Baratheon).

He was a serviceable hand to a poor king. I don't think anybody could have done a better job given the circumstances.

[Stannatic]

LF was great at his job. What snaky business was he on about that Arryn should have stopped? The snaky business of tripling the crowns incomes? LF got promoted due to his excellent work in Gulltown after Lysa convinced Jon to give him a chance. How many of these highborn lords actually know economics? Seemingly very few since even a guy as smart as Tyrion could hardly comprehend all the details.

Personally, I always found LF's work a little bit shady. How could he have tripled the crowns income, yet they Kingdom is still millions in debt? Tourneys could not have possibly cost all that much over such a period. And Tyrion not being able to comprehend the details says to me Littlefinger probably cooked the books.

[MyLittleFinger]

Personally, I always found LF's work a little bit shady. How could he have tripled the crowns income, yet they Kingdom is still millions in debt? Tourneys could not have possibly cost all that much over such a period. And Tyrion not being able to comprehend the details says to me Littlefinger probably cooked the books.

"If ever truly a man had armored himself in gold, it was Petyr Baelish, not Jaime Lannister. Jaime’s famous armor was but gilded steel, but Littlefinger, ah . . . Tyrion had learned a few things about sweet Petyr, to his growing disquiet.

Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king’s other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger’s rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown’s revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown’s debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king’s debts in promises, and put the king’s gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings."

He kept gaining revenue and Robert spent it. If the Crown had cut back its spending for a few years the debt would be solved. They continue to up the spending however and the loans go unpaid. The overspending doesn't stop at Robert though, even when LF isn't Master of Coin anymore, the Royal Wedding paid entirely from Crown funds, the dromonds and ships made entirely on Crown funds. The Master of Coin has a pretty crap job, they are "in charge" of the money, yet can't say no when their King/Hand demands something to be paid for. If the Crown had the balls to tighten their belts for 3 or 4 years LF's investments would oddly enough be enough to settle the debt with interest.

[Lord Lannister]

I think Jon was a good Hand, though in the end he was responsible for carrying out Robert's policies and the best Hand in the world couldn't overcome that disadvantage.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jon Arryn was a bad hand, His only true accomplishment was stopping Dorne from rising for Viserys . Through his administration you see the bankrupting of the realm ,(Yes Robert did drink ,whoring but his beggaring the realm was caused by loaning out monies ) ,rise of corruption ,rise of the Lannisters ,Varys and Pycelle should have been sent to the wall and Jaime should have been stripped of his white cloak . Most people think that his other great accomplishment is stopping Robert from killing Viserys and Daenerys the jury is out on that .

A WEAK KING NEEDS A STRONG HAND

Jon should have been more like Tywin .

[The silver dragon]

Jon Arryn was a bad hand, His only true accomplishment was stopping Dorne from rising for Viserys . Through his administration you see the bankrupting of the realm ,(Yes Robert did drink ,whoring but his beggaring the realm was caused by loaning out monies ) ,rise of corruption ,rise of the Lannisters ,Varys and Pycelle should have been sent to the wall and Jaime should have been stripped of his white cloak . Most people think that his other great accomplishment is stopping Robert from killing Viserys and Daenerys the jury is out on that .

A WEAK KING NEEDS A STRONG HAND

Jon should have been more like Tywin .

who else would they finance Roberts revelry?

Robert allowed it. and it's his court he has the final say on who he appoint's in it.

Robert wanted to pardon the loyalists. and forgive lannister for it's crimes.

it does not matter how strong the hand is if the king's an idiot.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

who else would they finance Roberts revelry?

Robert allowed it. and it's his court he has the final say on who he appoint's in it.

Robert wanted to pardon the loyalists. and forgive lannister for it's crimes.

it does not matter how strong the hand is if the king's an idiot.

A good Hand should be able to influence the King to do what is best for the Kingdom. If he cant make Robert stop his extravagant spending that was bankrupting the Realm then he is not doing his job.

If the Kings doing whatever he pleases then what is the point in the Hand?

[The silver dragon]

A good Hand should be able to influence the King to do what is best for the Kingdom. If he cant make Robert stop his extravagant spending that was bankrupting the Realm then he is not doing his job.

If the Kings doing whatever he pleases then what is the point in the Hand?

blood raven told the son of Daeron to kill biter-steel. he did not listen.

at the end of the day a king shit's and the hand cleans it up. at the end of the day they are basically glorified castellans.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think he would be a better Hand if killed the old small council entirely and sent Jaime to the Wall.

[The silver dragon]

I think he would be a better Hand if killed the old small council entirely and sent Jaime to the Wall.

only Robert has the authority to do that.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

only Robert has the authority to do that.

Yes, but Jon was the foster father of Robert, helped him to start the rebellion, so Robert would or should have listen to him.

[MyLittleFinger]

I think he would be a better Hand if killed the old small council entirely and sent Jaime to the Wall.

Well Varys and Pycelle seem to be the only council members that made it out alive. So I suppose in hindsight that might have helped.

[John Doe]

LF was great at his job.

I know people keep saying that, but he wasn't. All he was good at is putting the crown in dept and saying "trololololol it's not my fault, the king and the hand spend it". And for all we know he was very corrupt, Stannis acknowleged that, so Jon Arryn should have done the same. Also, Janos Slynt was the worst appointment he could have made as commander of the city watch.

[MyLittleFinger]

I know people keep saying that, but he wasn't. All he was good at is putting the crown in dept and saying "trololololol it's not my fault, the king and the hand spend it". And for all we know he was very corrupt, Stannis acknowleged that, so Jon Arryn should have done the same. Also, Janos Slynt was the worst appointment he could have made as commander of the city watch.

You know LF wasn't Master of Coin the entire reign of Robert. We don't even know if he appointed Janos Slynt, we just know he didn't want to fire him (and Robert didn't either nor Jon Arryn, only Stannis). All governments are in debt, yet you notice the only time it matters is when Cersei stops paying, this implies LF was managing the debt at some level since they never come knocking.

Borrowed from another poster

We have no evidence that the Crown was NOT in debt before Petyr.

Robert reigned about 18 years.

He started with captured full treasury from Aerys (which Aerys had not spent to fight against Robert).

For the first 7 years, Petyr was not Master of Coin, and the Master was a "beleaguered predecessor" of Petyr, or possibly several such. 4 of them, Petyr was languishing at Sheeppoop, and the next 3 he was passing through various lower offices.

Robert had 18 years to spend Aerys´ treasure and borrow 6 million dragons. Plus the netto incomes his Masters brought him, the beleaguered predecessors and Petyr.

Robert was not counting coppers. But Jon Arryn was. He may not have understood exactly where Petyr invested all the money - but the would have reflected on the basic data Petyr volunteered - how much the Crown was in debt and to whom, how much the debt grew each year, which Robert´s whims had spent how much money.

Petyr had to prove that he was better compared to his "beleaguered predecessor". And Jon Arryn was satisfied - otherwise Petyr would have been sent back, not to Sheeppoop but somewhere to the lower offices.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

. All governments are in debt,

The Government before Jon wasn't.

[MyLittleFinger]

The Government before Jon wasn't.

How do we know that? All we know is that Eddard says "Aerys II had left a treasury flowing with gold" I'm sure if Mr. Economics Stark looked into the treasury of Robert's he would find it full of gold too. Even if it's borrowed gold based on loans and lending. Who knows if Aerys was in a similar situation? He never set foot in King's Landing until the Sack.

[John Doe]

How do we know that? All we know is that Eddard says "Aerys II had left a treasury flowing with gold" I'm sure if Mr. Economics Stark looked into the treasury of Robert's he would find it full of gold too. Even if it's borrowed gold based on loans and lending. Who knows if Aerys was in a similar situation? He never set foot in King's Landing until the Sack.

Nobody, not even Petyr, in the small council corrected him, so we can only assume this statement is correct.

[MyLittleFinger]

Nobody, not even Petyr, in the small council corrected him, so we can only assume this statement is correct.

The point was that Ned didn't check any ledgers, he just knew there was gold in the treasury because he saw it with his own eyes. While LF says that the "treasury is empty," it can't physically be empty, otherwise they can't be physically paying for anything which includes wages et all, it's more about him telling Eddard that the budgeted money has already been spent. If the Iron Bank lent them 100,000 Gold Dragons, then one would presume they would be held in the treasury right? Now say Ned walked down to the treasury and saw that 100,000 GD, he would think they were loaded, despite the fact that they really aren't.