Catelyn Criticism Legit or Hindsight Bias?

[Storm Knight]

I'm still led to believe that Catelyn's poor decisions were the primary Catalysts for the Stark Downfall. Although she is not solely responsible as Robb and Ned made their share of terrible decisions.

But many including myself believe that Cat acted solely on emotion without thinking through on several instances such as leaving Winterfell, Arresting Tyrion and Freeing Jaime.

[Salafi Stannis]

Bipolar bear.

[Storm Knight]

Bipolar bear.

No comprende por favor. Puedes explicar?

[David Selig]

But many including myself believe that Cat acted solely on emotion without thinking through on several instances such as leaving Winterfell, Arresting Tyrion and Freeing Jaime.

That is factually wrong. The decisions may have been wrong, but the text makes it very clear she thought about them, made plans and didn't "acted solely on emotion without thinking".

[aryagonnakill#2]

^ Not with regards to releasing Jaime, or capturing Tyrion. The others she thought about yes, such as recommending Bolton, that came down to her not being northern.

Edit: Tho it does seem strange that Jon would immediately remember that Ned didn't trust Rose but that neither Catlyn or Robb ever seem to consider that.

[Salafi Stannis]

No comprende por favor. Puedes explicar?

Es bear es el muy bipolarito.

[The Holy Goat]

That is factually wrong. The decisions may have been wrong, but the text makes it very clear she thought about them, made plans and didn't "acted solely on emotion without thinking".

It is clear to me that she does. Catelyn is very good at telling herself she makes reasonable decisions based on rational logic - but it's also clear to me when I read her chapters that she does not, that everything she does is very heavily influenced and dominated by her own bias, feelings and emotions, more so than most POV we have. She just doesn't see it herself.

She is clearly intelligent, and politically savvy, but only as long as she herself does not have a personal stake in the matter - if she does, she follows her heart far more often than her brain.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^This follows my feelings about Catlyn, I've said that she is fairly good at figuring things out, but that she is a terrible decision maker.

[Bronn Urgandy]

^ Not with regards to releasing Jaime, or capturing Tyrion. The others she thought about yes, such as recommending Bolton, that came down to her not being northern.

Edit: Tho it does seem strange that Jon would immediately remember that Ned didn't trust Rose but that neither Catlyn or Robb ever seem to consider that.

I don't think either of them really trusted Roose, although they are naive enough to believe some of the horseshit he feeds them, "yeah, Glover totally acted on his own at Duskendale guys... yeah, all those other troops got left behind because it was the smart thing to do, sorry its primarily Dreadfort and Karstark men here." But they just wanted someone capable of matching Tywin, and Roose was the man for the job.

Cat catches too much flak, Robb Stark ran himself into a corner and then let men like the Greatjon and even Brynden Tully to an extent encourage him to go further into it.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Also, Cat had the best idea ever concieved in camp Robb Stark, sue for peace.

[David Selig]

It is clear to me that she does. Catelyn is very good at telling herself she makes reasonable decisions based on rational logic - but it's also clear to me when I read her chapters that she does not, that everything she does is very heavily influenced and dominated by her own bias, feelings and emotions, more so than most POV we have. She just doesn't see it herself.

She is clearly intelligent, and politically savvy, but only as long as she herself does not have a personal stake in the matter - if she does, she follows her heart far more often than her brain.

Just because a decision turns out to be wrong doesn't make irrational and emotional. Of course all decisions apart from the ones on purely abstract matters are affected by biases and emotions, but this doesn't make them irrational necessary.

For example capturing Tyrion - quick decision, but pretty rational based on what she knew at the time, and she quickly made a good plan how to get to the Eyrie and convince enough of the men in the inn to help her. And if not for Lysa being crazy and Tyrion having incredible luck, it would've had a positive result in the end - either Tyrion as a hostage or one Lannister less.

Edit: Tho it does seem strange that Jon would immediately remember that Ned didn't trust Rose but that neither Catlyn or Robb ever seem to consider that.

Obvious retcon.

[Storm Knight]

Cat's Paranoia was unnecesary and got the best of her.

Leaving Winterfell: Going to a strange and dangeorus place with limited resources and enemies everywhere and nobody to trust instead of keeping your strength and at home and building on it like Stannis and Lysa.

Capturing Tyrion: Seeking Justice for her son's attempted murder and imprisoning the accused behind it without any concrete proof in a room full of strangers knowing well enough that word would get around and would exacerbate tensions between the Houses. Also leading to the Death of several companions on the Journey. Her POV clearly shows us how ambivalent and conflicted she grew about her decision as the journey to the Vale progressed.

Releasing the Kingslayer: Possible Fatal contender for Stark Downfall. Handing Power back to the Lannisters.

[Pikachu101]

I'm still led to believe that Catelyn's poor decisions were the primary Catalysts for the Stark Downfall.

Catelyn's biggest error was freeing Jaime, and no that wasn't the cause of the Stark downfall because Tywin was already planning to sacrifice Jaime.

[Lykos]

Wow, citing Stannis and Lysa as sane examples to follow, I think that's the first time I saw that! And that after accusing Cat of paranoia! :bowdown: That's some nerve.

In my opinion there were some emotionally motivated decissions that Cat made.

1. Staying at Bran's bedside without sleeping for days.
   
2. Staying at Riverrun with her dying father.
   
3. Urging Brienne to flee (and taking her into service).
   

Abducting Tyrion is a case I find hard to argue as there was no time to think it through, but Cat tried to avoid being recognised by Tyrion and Tyrion himself never thought of his abduction as an unreasonable act of an emotional woman. Quite the contrary, he developed a certain respect for Catelyn.

Here is what I think about releasing Jaime.

What you also need to consider is that the situation, had dramatically changed at the time Catelyn released Jaime.

• Cat had just learned that Stannis was going to attack King´s Landing.
  
• Stannis regarded Robb (the King in the North) as a rebel.
  
• Stannis had used dark magic to kill his brother.
  
• Stannis had added most of the Stormland´s troops and probably some of the Reach to his - making it likely that he´d take King´s Landing.
  
• Jaime is of little value in negotiations with Stannis.
  
• Tywin´s hand wasn´t stayed in the slightest by Robb holding Jaime at Riverrun - he had just attacked the fords and was held back by Edmure.
  
• Cat was told by Cleos that Tyrion gave his word to exchange the girls for Jaime.
  
• Cat and Tyrion had developed a certain respect for each other - Tyrion saved Cat from a member of the Mountain Clans and Cat let him travel armed and unbound.
  
• Cat had just learned that Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon, who had taken Winterfell - making Sansa Robb´s heir.
  
• Cat knew that Robb had to leave the war in the Riverlands to win back the Stark´s seat.
  

Tell me again, why does releasing Jaime make no sense?

But I want to thank you for starting this topic in a reasonable sincere way.

The weak points of her plan to release Jaime was that she had no proper guards to send him with, but time was an issue again, and the emotional response that was to be expected by Robb's bannermen for losing such a "great prize". She was willing to take the blame for it, and I think part of why she did it, was that she knew Robb's men would forgive a grieving mother sooner than their King.

Also, look at Robb's greatest asset: his lady mother and Catnapping: a PSA.

[Mithras]

It is clear to me that she does. Catelyn is very good at telling herself she makes reasonable decisions based on rational logic - but it's also clear to me when I read her chapters that she does not, that everything she does is very heavily influenced and dominated by her own bias, feelings and emotions, more so than most POV we have. She just doesn't see it herself.

She is clearly intelligent, and politically savvy, but only as long as she herself does not have a personal stake in the matter - if she does, she follows her heart far more often than her brain.

No big surprise. Family, Duty, Honor. Family is in front of the rest.

[Storm Knight]

You make a good point about her decision to release Jaime. As a mother who had just been told that two of her sons are possibly dead her decision to get Sansa back was not unreasonable. But unfortunately for the Starks it cost them greatly because of the way Blackwater turned out and the Lannisters came out even more powerful than before. I haven't read ASoS in almost a year now, but I think that keeping Jaime in chains would have prevented the Red Wedding.

[DavosBolton]

Catelyn is an extremely wise advisor. Heck, she is WAY MORE competent than most of Aerys II's advisors after Tywin left.

If Catelyn was on Cersei's small council, she would be much more valuable than Owen Merryweather or Harys Swift.

She makes a few mistakes under emotional duress, but overall she is very good. Her few mistakes are OBVIOUSLY bad, to the point of silliness, so if I were her liege, I would just easily ignore them, and benefit from all her other good counsel.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Her mistakes were a big deal, the excusing done for them not being consequential is not convincing, but I am not convinced they were a bigger deal that the mistakes of other characters who also made big mistakes including her son and husband. In any case the whole Robb and Catelyn thing is more complicated than Robb should always have listened to Catelyn and Catelyn the wise though there were certainly cases he should have.

Also Catelyn does not think solely on emotion though there are times she does think more on emotion than what's best. But again we see with different characters their own unique kind of tunnel vision, a specific issue where due to their emotions, values and relationships they will err. This again applies to more characters than Catelyn.

[Lykos]

But unfortunately for the Starks it cost them greatly because of the way Blackwater turned out and the Lannisters came out even more powerful than before. I haven't read ASoS in almost a year now, but I think that keeping Jaime in chains would have prevented the Red Wedding.

We know that the Sybell Spicer plan had allready been set in motion before Tywin knew Jaime was safe. Roose Bolton might have acted differently at the Red Wedding, we'll never know, but he had send Robb's most loyal bannermen into a useless death at Duskendale, just because Theon took Winterfell.

And if we're using hindsight we have to credit Catelyn with Jaime freeing Tyrion, who in turn killed Tywin, which gives the remaining Starks more hope for survival than any other turn of events.

[Hoosier427]

Another big mistake cat makes is allowing rob to leave the twins without getting hitched. Hindsight being 20/20, it is very important for rob to have a heir to help legitimize his claim of king in the north. Should of had him hitched right there. If he had gotten married, the freys stay loyal and when rob wants to take the westernlands he has the strength to do so and doesn't have to backtrack to the twins for the red wedding. He very well could still be alive if he had gotten married right then and there.