should Aerys and Rhaella have pulled a Duncan the Small?

[shockwave]

as you all know, Egg married his wife for love. This lead to his sons wanting to do the same thing. So Duncan the Small married the lowborn Lady Jenny of Oldstones. Jaehaerys II saw his example and decided to sneak away and marry his sister.

Later Jaehaerys told Aerys and Rhaella that they had to marry each other. Should Aerys and Rhaella have takes their uncle and father's example and decided to quickly marry the person they wanted. So we'd have Aerys sneaking away with Joanna and getting married, and Rhaella sneaking away with Bonifer Hasty. How would Jaeharys and Egg have reacted? This time, it's not like some bethrothal to a powerfull house is broken, in fact, this could even make a powerfull alliance with the Lannisters.

[Red Tiger]

Considering what a wishy-washy womanizer Aerys was, I can't see him marrying anybody out of free will.

[Aemond's Eye]

Well, I don't think Aerys could have run off with Joanna without causing major friction between the Targaryens and the Lannisters - and at that point he was still close friends with Tywin, her betrothed. There's nothing to indicate that he wanted to actually marry her either, so much as lusted after her.

As for Rhaella? Marrying Bonifer Hasty would have been close to as scandalous as Duncan marrying Jenny of Oldstones, and she'd have to be prepared for any children of the marriage to be ruled out of royal succession, as well as Rhaella herself being disinherited. It's possible she may not have wanted that either.

Whether their father kept a closer watch on them due to running off with Shaera himself, or whether the siblings just reluctantly accepted the marriage, it seems that they made no attempt to get out of it beyond perhaps arguing with their father about it. Incestuous marriages were half-expected for Targaryen families, and it was only from Daeron II onwards that they began to marry other noble families - out with a select few - on a regular basis; it's quite possible that, much like Daenerys with Viserys, they grew up half-expecting to marry one another.

It really depends on whether you believe in TPTWP prophecy. If you think that prophecy will be proven to be true in ASOIAF, then they had to marry, else the War for The Dawn might be lost. But from the standpoint of the Targaryen dynasty itself, it would probably have been better had Aegon V's children actually married who he had betrothed them to. Meaning there would have been no line of Jaehaerys & Shaera anyway.

[Annara Snow]

A better question would be, why didn't they simply go to their grandfather the king, who was against incestuous marriages, and ask him to overrule their father?

[The Mountain That Flies]

I've often wondered about this, and the only real explanation is that Aerys and Rhaella were both weaker-willed than either their father or uncles.

A better question would be, why didn't they simply go to their grandfather the king, who was against incestuous marriages, and ask him to overrule their father?

I feel like it was noted that Aegon objected to the idea, but allowed Jaehaerys to have his way because...well, because he was kind of a pushover when it came to his kids.

[The silver dragon]

A better question would be, why didn't they simply go to their grandfather the king, who was against incestuous marriages, and ask him to overrule their father?

the father decides his children's marriage, not the grandfather.

and the king probably doesn't have the legal authority to undue a marriage. only the high-septon can do that.

[Annara Snow]

the father decides his children's marriage, not the grandfather.

and the king probably doesn't have the legal authority to undue a marriage. only the high-septon can do that.

To undue a marriage, no, but to order Jaehaerys to not do this, or take Aerys and Rhaella's side? Yes, I think he could have, if they had appealed to him. My point is that they should have gone to him before the wedding was to take place. I really don't believe the king who's also Jaehaerys' father wouldn't have the authority to tell him to not force his children into marriage, if they had come to him.

[shockwave]

Egg relented to Jaehaerys wishes

[Lord Varys]

Aerys and especially Rhaella were forced to marry at a very early age. I imagine that both Aerys/Rhaella and Aegon V tried to reason with Jaehaerys over this whole issue, but Jaehaerys apparently was relentless. By this time, Jaehaerys was Prince of Dragonstone, and Egg's only viable heir, as Prince Daeron was already dead, and Duncan officially abdicated.

Egg needed Jaehaerys, and apparently could not risk a quarrel over this. Especially not considering that an incest marriage was the usual thing anyway, and should thus not cause all that much uproar among the lords.

I'd not be surprised if it turns out that Egg was actually considered a match between Joanna Lannister and Aerys prior to the prophecy thing that caused the Aerys-Rhaella match. Egg seems to have been somewhat close to Gerold, and the Lannisters closely bound to the Iron Throne could have made the whole reform thing much more easier. We don't know when exactly Tywin and Joanna were betrothed to each other, but considering the years between Aerys-Rhaella's marriage (in 258 AC, I imagine) and the Joanna-Tywin match, it is not impossible that Tywin was only betrothed to Joanna after Aerys had already married Rhaella.

[Bael's Bastard]

the father decides his children's marriage, not the grandfather.

Is this stated or indicated anywhere? Egg was not just the grandfather, he was the king and the head of his house. I find it highly unlikely that a king or lord doesn't have more power over such decisions than his son, even if it is his heir. Until he is dead or removed, he is responsible for the kingdom or house. Even if Egg didn't like it, I don't see it happening without his allowance unless he did not find out about it until it had already been done.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is this stated or indicated anywhere? Egg was not just the grandfather, he was the king and the head of his house. I find it highly unlikely that a king or lord doesn't have more power over such decisions than his son, even if it is his heir. Until he is dead or removed, he is responsible for the kingdom or house. Even if Egg didn't like it, I don't see it happening without his allowance unless he did not find out about it until it had already been done.

The opposite is. The Lord/head of the House makes marriage alliances. Case in point: Arnolf Karstark not being allowed to broker a marriage between Alys and Cregan.

Egg is King and head of House Targaryen. It's his choice.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Who gets to arrange a marriage is a sketchy topic, however marrying without the consent of the head of your house would not be in line with what is usually done, the head of the house definately can make marriage contracts for his cousins/nephews/grandchildren, as we saw with Tywin.

Arnolf is not only not the lord, he is further down the line of succession than all of Rickard's children, thus his attempts to force Alys, the heiress presumptive, into marriage can be seen as treason/oathbreaking.

Since Aegon is the King Rhaella and Aerys couldn't have married without him acceptance, unless he really had no other choice as BBE suggests, which is probably the case.

[Colonel Green]

Aerys could have tried something like that. Westerosi gender roles being what they are, I think that would have been too big a risk for most men to chance marrying Rhaella -- Shaera married another member of the royal family, by comparison, whereas Hasty or anybody else wouldn't have that protection.

[HexMachina]

Aerys could have tried something like that. Westerosi gender roles being what they are, I think that would have been too big a risk for most men to chance marrying Rhaella -- Shaera married another member of the royal family, by comparison, whereas Hasty or anybody else wouldn't have that protection.

Yep. Her only option in this scenario really is to pull a Saera and flee over the Narrow Sea

[maudisdottir]

Did Joanna even want to marry Aerys?

[Maia]

As far as we know Aerys only met Joanna when she came to KL for his father's coronation. At that point, Aerys had been already married for more than 9 months and had little Rhaegar. So, yea, I don't think that she was ever in the running while Aerys was still free.

I am not sure that additional connection to the failing and ridiculed Lannisters would have been particularly worthwhile politically either. Tywin already provided a strong tie to the Lannisters and Joanna was only a niece of the ruling lord, not a daughter.

I imagine that Aerys and Rhaella didn't resist all that much because the prophecy was quite alluring and Aerys didn't feel strongly enough about anybody, while Rhaella may have been infatuated with Hasty, but not enough to throw everything away. They also probably grew up half-expecting to marry each other and certainly expecting arranged marriages. Their parents would have been all the more vigilant because of their own history, too.

Head of the House certainly can overrule a mere father, but, I guess that Egg couldn't afford to alienate Jahaerys at that point. Also, it hardly behooves somebody, who is trying to hatch dragons that have been extinct for a century, to scoff at prophecies...

Naturally, even if the prophecy does come true, it is entirely possible that it would have been enough for _children_ of Aerys and Rhaella to intermarry and produce offspring fitting the bill. But nobody could know whether they had that extra generation or not. And, of course, sexes of the children may not have matched either...

[Lord Varys]

Joanna really is a wild card prior the 259 AC - and even in that year, as we don't know how she became a lady-in-waiting to Princess Rhaella. Was that an outgrowth of her attending the coronation of Jaehaerys II, or was it a thing in the making between House Lannister and the Iron Throne (then Aegon V).

My personal guess is that Jaehaerys received his prophecy in 257/8, as I guess it took some time until Jaehaerys had convinced Egg to marry Aerys to Rhaella. The wedding would have been in 258 AC, as the best guess is that Aerys impregnated Rhaella in or around the time of the wedding night.

With Tywin at court, Egg could actually have tried to make a match between him and Rhaella, and/or between Aerys and Joanna.

Tywin may have been in love with Joanna, but he was also very much 'in love' with the Iron Throne, so I'd not really be surprised if he hoped to marry a royal princess.

[shockwave]

Tywin marrying Rhaella gives him a bigger chance to get a daughter as queen due to targ blood, so he might be all for it.

[Lord Varys]

Exactly. Tywin could actually have tried to seat his own son by Rhaella on the Iron Throne. Would Aerys die without issue in such a scenario, Rhaella and her children by Tywin would be next in line due to the fact that there were no Targaryen males from the male line around.