Jump to content

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I


MoIaF

Recommended Posts

Many thanks for the essay, BQ. I found this very interesting.

Unfortunately, I think Arya is heading into a much darker place than Dany. Dany's life started badly (when we first met her) and has been a roller-coaster ever since. Arya's life started well, and has just been a relentless horror story ever since her father was executed; by the end, she's no longer witnessing murder, torture, and rape on a daily basis, but she is being inducted into a cult of assassins, and becoming a cold and remorseless killer. I envisage her finishing up in the mould of someone like Pretty Meris.

Thanks Sean! I'm not sure I'd go that far with Arya, but I do think that she's going to be a fairly dark character by the time this is over. She's becoming Death's Avatar and that's not something that would be easy to come back from. I do think that she'll find a way to retain some of her humanity, mostly by holding on to Needle and finding Jon Snow again but I think she'll always be drawn to a darker side.

But that's similiar to Dany as well. Dany is coming back to Meereen likely with fire and with blood and is going to stop trying to make peace. When she arrives in Westeros, with three dragons, and tries to retake the throne, it's probably not going to be all sunshine and daises and the people of the country will likely see her as a bigger threat than Aegon--be he fake or real. I know Mladen has talked about the mythology of dragons in the East vs the West and how in the latter they are viewed as a decidedly bad thing.

George has set up Dany to be a controversial figure. Like Arya she's always going to be heavily steeped in the grey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an outstanding character essay, BearQueen87, and the perfect way to start a new year! Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark are my favorite characters in the entire series, so I'm really looking forward to this discussion and have signed up for reminders.



I agree with you, BQ, that both Dany and Arya have been set up as controversial. However, there's quite a bit less sympathy for Dany than Arya, both in-text and I would say among the readership. It's left me wondering how much of it is about each individual girl and how much of it is their respective family's legacies. Dany is the last survivor not only of House Targaryen of Westeros, but also the last survivor of a Valyrian dragonlord family. As such, her family legacy in Westeros is mixed at best, and in Essos, perhaps not that great. Outside of her inner circle, her reputation varies depending upon the group in question -- the people of Slaver's Bay go from worshipping her to anarchy, the Westerosi greet the rumors of her survival and her dragons with incredulity or see them as a threat, and there are still many different people hoping to use her as their pawn.



Arya Stark's being used as a powerful pawn as well. The Bolton Bastard, Ramsay, has claimed Winterfell in her name. Although it's really Jeyne Poole a false Arya, there are still numerous acts being done in her name. In response to this, the whole of the North is rising on behalf of "Ned's little girl," which parallels some readers' outrage when the Mercy chapter of TWoW was released. Although she has survived against all odds and is training to become a professional assassin, she elicits quite a bit of sympathy from other characters as well as readers.



I wonder why it seems that Dany's survival against all odds in the face of loss is not viewed as sympathetically as Arya's? Especially given the parallels that BQ has shown so well? It makes one wonder. Because, as BQ quotes, "who would dare to love a dragon?" Yet the pack survives, and everyone loves a direwolf...


Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an outstanding character essay, BearQueen87, and the perfect way to start a new year! Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark are my favorite characters in the entire series, so I'm really looking forward to this discussion and have signed up for reminders.

I agree with you, BQ, that both Dany and Arya have been set up as controversial. However, there's quite a bit less sympathy for Dany than Arya, both in-text and I would say among the readership. It's left me wondering how much of it is about each individual girl and how much of it is their respective family's legacies. Dany is the last survivor not only of House Targaryen of Westeros, but also the last survivor of a Valyrian dragonlord family. As such, her family legacy in Westeros is mixed at best, and in Essos, perhaps not that great. Outside of her inner circle, her reputation varies depending upon the group in question -- the people of Slaver's Bay go from worshipping her to anarchy, the Westerosi greet the rumors of her survival and her dragons with incredulity or see them as a threat, and there are still many different people hoping to use her as their pawn.

Arya Stark's being used as a powerful pawn as well. The Bolton Bastard, Ramsay, has claimed Winterfell in her name. Although it's really Jeyne Poole a false Arya, there are still numerous acts being done in her name. In response to this, the whole of the North is rising on behalf of "Ned's little girl," which parallels some readers' outrage when the Mercy chapter of TWoW was released. Although she has survived against all odds and is training to become a professional assassin, she elicits quite a bit of sympathy from other characters as well as readers.

I wonder why it seems that Dany's survival against all odds in the face of loss is not viewed as sympathetically as Arya's? Especially given the parallels that BQ has shown so well? It makes one wonder. Because, as BQ quotes, "who would dare to love a dragon?" Yet the pack survives, and everyone loves a direwolf...

Martin places Dany and Arya joint second, as the characters he likes best.

I think that some readers will cut Arya more slack than Dany because i) she's four year younger, and ii) her story so far has been so relentlessly horrible. Dany's story certainly started horribly, but it hasn't been so relentlessly awful as Arya's. And, without wishing to turn this into a Dany-bashing thread, Arya's body count is far lower than Dany's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SeanF, I agree. It's why I'd never bash Dany, and have spent my short time here defending her and other Targs. She really has a hard time on these boards, and I just don't get why.



Maybe it's also because Arya's story begins in the idyllic Ned/Cat family in the bosom of Winterfell, and then she's ripped from it. Meanwhile, in Dany's first POV, we have Viserys being a creepster and learn about her bartering to a horselord. The Westerosi setting may seem more familiar to readers than the scene at Pentos.



Also, Arya is defiant from the start, while Dany is more meek and pliant.



Like you, I do think the characters' ages has something to do with it as well. Dany's flowered and becoming a woman, while Arya's still a little girl. Less PC to tell a little girl like Arya that she should know her place... :cool4:


Link to comment
Share on other sites

What an outstanding character essay, BearQueen87, and the perfect way to start a new year! Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark are my favorite characters in the entire series, so I'm really looking forward to this discussion and have signed up for reminders.

I agree with you, BQ, that both Dany and Arya have been set up as controversial. However, there's quite a bit less sympathy for Dany than Arya, both in-text and I would say among the readership. It's left me wondering how much of it is about each individual girl and how much of it is their respective family's legacies. Dany is the last survivor not only of House Targaryen of Westeros, but also the last survivor of a Valyrian dragonlord family. As such, her family legacy in Westeros is mixed at best, and in Essos, perhaps not that great. Outside of her inner circle, her reputation varies depending upon the group in question -- the people of Slaver's Bay go from worshipping her to anarchy, the Westerosi greet the rumors of her survival and her dragons with incredulity or see them as a threat, and there are still many different people hoping to use her as their pawn.

Arya Stark's being used as a powerful pawn as well. The Bolton Bastard, Ramsay, has claimed Winterfell in her name. Although it's really Jeyne Poole a false Arya, there are still numerous acts being done in her name. In response to this, the whole of the North is rising on behalf of "Ned's little girl," which parallels some readers' outrage when the Mercy chapter of TWoW was released. Although she has survived against all odds and is training to become a professional assassin, she elicits quite a bit of sympathy from other characters as well as readers.

I wonder why it seems that Dany's survival against all odds in the face of loss is not viewed as sympathetically as Arya's? Especially given the parallels that BQ has shown so well? It makes one wonder. Because, as BQ quotes, "who would dare to love a dragon?" Yet the pack survives, and everyone loves a direwolf...

Thank you Liz!!

Martin places Dany and Arya joint second, as the characters he likes best.

I think that some readers will cut Arya more slack than Dany because i) she's four year younger, and ii) her story so far has been so relentlessly horrible. Dany's story certainly started horribly, but it hasn't been so relentlessly awful as Arya's. And, without wishing to turn this into a Dany-bashing thread, Arya's body count is far lower than Dany's.

Oh for sure Arya's body count is less--however, something I hope to show in Essay #2, their psychology behind why they do what they do, is very similar. They both have "crossing the Trident" moments that are directly followed by bloodshed.

And, I'll just throw this out there, Arya is also cut a lot of slack not only because she is young and the sheer horror of story but also, Stark-bias and possibly the fact that Dany got three dragons while Arya lost her wolf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Liz!!

Oh for sure Arya's body count is less--however, something I hope to show in Essay #2, their psychology behind why they do what they do, is very similar. They both have "crossing the Trident" moments that are directly followed by bloodshed.

And, I'll just throw this out there, Arya is also cut a lot of slack not only because she is young and the sheer horror of story but also, Stark-bias and possibly the fact that Dany got three dragons while Arya lost her wolf.

I think that's the real source of contention for a lot of Dany's detractors. For some reason they resent the fact that she has dragons and often call them a plot gift.

However, as we have discussed in the re-read, Dany paid a very steep price for those dragons one I don't believe she would pay again if given the choice. Dany would much prefer having a real family to her dragons. Of course, the dragons as it happens are feeling the role of a substitute family. If she can't have a real family, at least she has her dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's the real source of contention for a lot of Dany's detractors. For some reason they resent the fact that she has dragons and often call them a plot gift.

However, as we have discussed in the re-read, Dany paid a very steep price for those dragons one I don't believe she would pay again if given the choice. Dany would much prefer having a real family to her dragons. Of course, the dragons as it happens are feeling the role of a substitute family. If she can't have a real family, at least she has her dragons.

Quote from ADWD to emphasize your point:

"I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons..."

And, still, even though she has her three dragons and they are her "children" her idealistic dream is a little stone house, with a red door, arms to keep her warm, and a simple life with not a dragon in sight.

To bring this back to Arya, all she wants is to return to her simple WF life, to have Jon Snow ruffle her hair and call her little sister, to play with Bran and Rickon.

Both of them want a simple life are learning that it is never that simple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote from ADWD to emphasize your point:

And, still, even though she has her three dragons and they are her "children" her idealistic dream is a little stone house, with a red door, arms to keep her warm, and a simple life with not a dragon in sight.

To bring this back to Arya, all she wants is to return to her simple WF life, to have Jon Snow ruffle her hair and call her little sister, to play with Bran and Rickon.

Both of them want a simple life are learning that it is never that simple.

In a way, I think if Dany and/or Arya survive the series, this will be the bittersweet ending for them. They will never have this simple life, for them that ship sailed a long time ago*.

It's like what YodaJorah told Dany in the Dothraki sea when she was telling his she stayed in Meereen to rest:

"No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."

Sadly, these girls were not destined for simple lives.

ETA: *Just occurred to me that both Dany and Arya sailed away from Westeros to Braavos to get away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree that Dany is written as less sympathetic than Arya. The hatred for her on this forum was a huge surprise for me. I think the reason many hate her is mostly the fact that she has a legitimate claim on the throne, real political and military power by herself, and could also end up as a hero/messiah figure, all of which is seen as a threat to the role of favorite male character, be it Jon or Stannis. Arya has also been able to get away with the fact she is female because many have found it easier to ignore it the way they can't with Dany (or Catelyn or Sansa or other female characters), but I don't know how long they will be able to continue doing so - if the Mercy chapter is any indication, that time may have come at an end.

/ cynical mode off

I don't think GRRM has ever explicitly said who his second favorite character is, though it can be assumed it is Arya from how often he talks about her in interviews. I don't think he has ever said Dany was his second favorite, but I think he obviously likes her from the way he writes her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree that Dany is written as less sympathetic than Arya. The hatred for her on this forum was a huge surprise for me. I think the reason many hate her is mostly the fact that she has a legitimate claim on the throne, real political and military power by herself, and could also end up as a hero/messiah figure, all of which is seen as a threat to the role of favorite male character, be it Jon or Stannis. Arya has also been able to get away with the fact she is female because many have found it easier to ignore it the way they can't with Dany (or Catelyn or Sansa or other female characters), but I don't know how long they will be able to continue doing so - if the Mercy chapter is any indication, that time may have come at an end.

/ cynical mode off

I don't think GRRM has ever explicitly said who his second favorite character is, though it can be assumed it is Arya from how often he talks about her in interviews. I don't think he has ever said Dany was his second favorite, but I think he obviously likes her from the way he writes her.

He has. It's here in minute 2:18.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree that Dany is written as less sympathetic than Arya. The hatred for her on this forum was a huge surprise for me. I think the reason many hate her is mostly the fact that she has a legitimate claim on the throne, real political and military power by herself, and could also end up as a hero/messiah figure, all of which is seen as a threat to the role of favorite male character, be it Jon or Stannis. Arya has also been able to get away with the fact she is female because many have found it easier to ignore it the way they can't with Dany (or Catelyn or Sansa or other female characters), but I don't know how long they will be able to continue doing so - if the Mercy chapter is any indication, that time may have come at an end.

/ cynical mode off

I don't think GRRM has ever explicitly said who his second favorite character is, though it can be assumed it is Arya from how often he talks about her in interviews. I don't think he has ever said Dany was his second favorite, but I think he obviously likes her from the way he writes her.

I don't think he has written Arya any more sympathetic either and the hatred for Dany was a huge shock to me when I joined the forum. It's gotten to the point where I try not to talk about Dany outside of the re-read projects in a very neutral territory like RLJ where people are very conscious of not turning it into a hate-thread or if I feel really compelled to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with seanF and Anara snow here

I will also had that people nowadays seem to prefer Tomboy character more than a girly character

And what makes Dany "girly" is my next issue. Her happiest time in AGOT she is described as oiled, messy, dirty feet, wearing leather pants and a vest like a male rider. Yes, Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world according to text but that in and of itself doesn't mean she's "girly" with the connotation of airy, dimwitted, giggly. Like (if you're America) a Valley High stereotypes.

And with Arya, I think it's important to bear in mind that just because we see Arya reject the feminine tropes a lot--dresses, sewing, giggling over boys--that Arya is coming into her own looks to the point where the Kindly Man is saying that men will fight over the right to have her first, and has what might be a future romantic relationship with Gendry.

I think when people use the world "girly" it's trying to say that women need to be a certain thing and I think that Arya and Dany are both blowing holes in the idea of what it means to be feminine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what makes Dany "girly" is my next issue. Her happiest time in AGOT she is described as oiled, messy, dirty feet, wearing leather pants and a vest like a male rider. Yes, Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world according to text but that in and of itself doesn't mean she's "girly" with the connotation of airy, dimwitted, giggly. Like (if you're America) a Valley High stereotypes.

And with Arya, I think it's important to bear in mind that just because we see Arya reject the feminine tropes a lot--dresses, sewing, giggling over boys--that Arya is coming into her own looks to the point where the Kindly Man is saying that men will fight over the right to have her first, and has what might be a future romantic relationship with Gendry.

I think when people use the world "girly" it's trying to say that women need to be a certain thing and I think that Arya and Dany are both blowing holes in the idea of what it means to be feminine.

Dany is girly when compared to Arya because she is beautiful and she likes guys and she occasionally wears dresses (much more in Meereen).

Arya is all but asexual up until Mercy and literally spends book 2 and 3 disguised as a boy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what makes Dany "girly" is my next issue. Her happiest time in AGOT she is described as oiled, messy, dirty feet, wearing leather pants and a vest like a male rider. Yes, Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world according to text but that in and of itself doesn't mean she's "girly" with the connotation of airy, dimwitted, giggly. Like (if you're America) a Valley High stereotypes.

And with Arya, I think it's important to bear in mind that just because we see Arya reject the feminine tropes a lot--dresses, sewing, giggling over boys--that Arya is coming into her own looks to the point where the Kindly Man is saying that men will fight over the right to have her first, and has what might be a future romantic relationship with Gendry.

I think when people use the world "girly" it's trying to say that women need to be a certain thing and I think that Arya and Dany are both blowing holes in the idea of what it means to be feminine.

It's funny that you mentioned this because I was just PM'ing with a buddy and we were discussing the certain fandom fascination with Val. I was saying that they like her because she is the stereotypical fantasy female: smart, clever, beautiful, brave, etc. Of course she's only appear "on screen" a few times and only through Jon's POV.

But, my point was that they preferred the cardboard version of a female character then the real, gritty thing. That's what Dany and Arya are, real, gritty and flawed. Because neither of them really fit into the mold of what readers are accustomed to with female heroines, they rub a (surprisingly) a lot of people the wrong way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dany is girly when compared to Arya because she is beautiful and she likes guys and she occasionally wears dresses (much more in Meereen).

Arya is all but asexual up until Mercy and literally spends book 2 and 3 disguised as a boy.

But Arya is also beautiful (again, see what the Kindly Man has to say about setting her up in Braavos), she likes guys (Gendry), though the way she expresses that is younger than say, the way Dany likes Daario, and occasionally wears dresses (even if they are forced on her).

I agree that Arya is rejecting some of the more feminine aspects--specifically the notion of life-giving which Dany tends to embody in some regards (another part of Essay # 2 coming on Sunday...)--but the idea that Dany is "girly" makes her sound like....Paris Hilton, or something. As if Dany doesn't also reject some idea of what we construct as "being female." For example, find me a Disney Princess or stereotypical cheerleader who crucifies 163 people. Dany is much more Buffy than she is Cordelia (pre-Angel spin off...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Arya is also beautiful (again, see what the Kindly Man has to say about setting her up in Braavos), she likes guys (Gendry), though the way she expresses that is younger than say, the way Dany likes Daario, and occasionally wears dresses (even if they are forced on her).

I agree that Arya is rejecting some of the more feminine aspects--specifically the notion of life-giving which Dany tends to embody in some regards (another part of Essay # 2 coming on Sunday...)--but the idea that Dany is "girly" makes her sound like....Paris Hilton, or something. As if Dany doesn't also reject some idea of what we construct as "being female." For example, find me a Disney Princess or stereotypical cheerleader who crucifies 163 people. Dany is much more Buffy than she is Cordelia (pre-Angel spin off...)

Did we just become best friends?

Dany is exactly Buffy!!!! Maybe even a little Faith sometimes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Arya is also beautiful (again, see what the Kindly Man has to say about setting her up in Braavos), she likes guys (Gendry), though the way she expresses that is younger than say, the way Dany likes Daario, and occasionally wears dresses (even if they are forced on her).

I agree that Arya is rejecting some of the more feminine aspects--specifically the notion of life-giving which Dany tends to embody in some regards (another part of Essay # 2 coming on Sunday...)--but the idea that Dany is "girly" makes her sound like....Paris Hilton, or something. As if Dany doesn't also reject some idea of what we construct as "being female." For example, find me a Disney Princess or stereotypical cheerleader who crucifies 163 people. Dany is much more Buffy than she is Cordelia (pre-Angel spin off...)

There are people who like to be contrarian (and Dany is a very popular character). It's like some people try to argue that Cersei is a heroine.

But, there are serious critics of Daenerys on this forum (people who don't call her a slut, airhead, worse than Caligula etc.). And, I think that's because she is written to be a disturbing character, however much the author likes her. By and large, heroes in fantasy (especially heroines) don't do things like crucifying people, or burning them alive. Mostly, they're boy or girl scouts (at any rate, prior to dark fantasy becoming popular).

It reminds me a bit of a book called A High Wind In Jamaica by Richard Hughes (very controversial in its time, it was written in 1929) about teenagers who get kidnapped by pirates, and one girl gets raped by a pirate. In revenge, the teenagers torture one of the pirates to death. You're still rooting for the teenagers, but it's still very unsettling reading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But, there are serious critics of Daenerys on this forum (people who don't call her a slut, airhead, worse than Caligula etc.). And, I think that's because she is written to be a disturbing character, however much the author likes her. By and large, heroes in fantasy (especially heroines) don't do things like crucifying people, or burning them alive. Mostly, they're boy or girl scouts (at any rate, prior to dark fantasy becoming popular).

Sure, I get that. But isn't one of the thing that is constantly thrown around this forum at large is that GRRM is not writing "traditional" fantasy? He's taking those ideas and subverting them to degrees depending on the trope. So Dany doing some of the things she does might not be traditional "hero," but I don't think it makes her any less of a hero in GRRM's eyes. There's an interview with GRRM (actually, I think you linked it to all of us over in Dany Re-Read) where he says that his idea of a hero is someone who can do something terrible on Monday and something great on Tuesday. A hero isn't someone who puts on their cape every single day and does "all the good!" all the time. That's GRRM's own problem with traditional fantasy. Dany might be written as a controversial and disturbing character, but I would argue so is Arya. She is a nine year old who draws strength and power from killing and having blood on her hands. Yet you never get the sheer volume of hatred toward her that you do for Dany.

And then there is the whole contradiction between portrayals of Dany. Either she's a mad bad bitch who is closer to Satan than any other character in ASOIAF OR she's a Disney Princess/Mary Sue who has plot armor and plot gifts. And, I love Arya to death, but there is no realistic way she should have survived the Riverlands without GRRM's plot armor. She would have been raped, tortured, mutilated, and killed many times over (but point this out to people and the answer is, "yes but Arya is clever" and I won't deny that Arya is a smart cookie, but she was also held captive by the Mountain, the same guy who raped a 13 yr old tavern girl in front of her father because the father protested Gregor's knight touching his daughter. And still Arya went untouched for her entire stay with the Mountain AND at HH). And maybe she doesn't have her direwolf, but she does have Jaqen H'gar who literally pops out of nowhere to do the work of a god and protect Arya and make her brave again. Or the Kindly Man who doesn't throw her out on her ass despite the fact that she keeps breaking his rules.

So when I see all these contradictions--Dany is mad and bad but also a boring Mary Sue--I tend to think that there is another reason underneath all the hatred. To be perfectly honest, I think Annara said it best: "could also end up as a hero/messiah figure, all of which is seen as a threat to the role of favorite male character, be it Jon or Stannis" And to go back to what MOAIF said, is that also the reason that people like Val more than Dany? Val fits the "traditional" fantasy female character: she's big breasted, beautiful, blonde, she gets in a few quips and the most heroic thing she does is going to find Torrmund, another fan favorite. That's...it. That's all she does. I, frankly, find her boring and keep waiting for her do something more exciting or come up with tinfoil hat theories about how she might be an Ice Priestess because otherwise what is the point of Val outside of "pretty girl" who just has to get with the hero Jon Snow because "hero deserve a pretty girl."

Okay, I'm rambling at this point. So I'll leave it at this.....I agree that Dany is controversial, but so is Arya. And I think that's what GRRM wants. He wants us to have the kind of serious (non yelling) conversations we have about them because he is trying to get us to re-think our images of heroes and femininity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...