The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[MoIaF]

Can I just say that I adore Dany fans? #TeamKhaleesi is an amazing team to be on...

The thing that strikes me about Dany is that she literally has no one. Jon is almost certainly her nephew, and his surviving half-siblings cousins are his family.

So through Jon, although Dany doesn't know it, she'd have distant relations by marriage. And like Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon, she'd know the pain of being orphaned, exiled, running for one's life, being under threat of assassination.

Sure, GRRM could have a gigantic fire vs. ice battle set up with Starks on one side and Dany + dragons on the other. But I think it's more likely that she'd finally run into people who understood her experiences. I think it's the same with the link between Dany and her handmaid Missandei (little girl in the books, female friend on the show) -- in a sense, Dany was sold into marriage as much as Missandei was sold into slavery. Of course the two are NOT equivalent, but there's that connection.

Dany and all of the Stark kids know what it feels like to be coerced. Specific to BQ's excellent essay this week, I've seen the case being made that Arya was in effect a slave at Harrenhal. While it wasn't the permanent chattel slavery of Slaver's Bay, Dany very well could have ended up in the same position.

Although I know it won't happen, I'd love if Arya (and Tyrion, who irritates most on these boards) would join Dany's entourage as she heads West toward Westeros. After all, having a FM as a member of the Queensguard couldn't hurt...

Honestly, this is how I think they will meet. I know it might sound too good to be true but it really is the most logical solution to have Arya accompany Dany and her entourage back to Westeros while uniting her POV with the of Dany and Tyrion.

I know people have their doubts tat GRRM can finish the story in two books and it might be the case that he can't, however, we should consider that if the story will be centering North along with all the character he will be telling one story from 20 different perspective instead of telling us 20 different stories from 20 perspective. The story needs to be condensed in order to culminate and for that the POV's need to be consolidated. That's why I think the most logical thing would be for Arya to join Dany in Essos.

[Mladen]

And I think that it is okay. For me it's when Dany get singled out either as ultimate good or ultimate evil, to play fair to both sides. And that's really why I was in favor of this particular re-read as it will give us all a chance to see how alike she might be to other characters.

Well, truth is that standards are indeed higher for heroes. Just as people judge Cat or Sansa, they will judge Daenerys, because the good people get to be judged sometimes more harshly than villains. And, I mean, is there an actual debate whether Ramsay or Gregor are monsters? No. Dany brings the heat of debate not because she is a monster, but because she is fallible hero. Same as all Martin's character... "Hero on Tuesday, sh*t on Wednesday"

These threads are usually good way of seeing how certain character is perceived. When we watch Dany through the spectacles of other characters, paralleling her with others, we might see this and that which can ultimately provide us with significant material to draw some conclusions for.

(I also love Sansa, but I read ASOIAF different than many of her fans here, so I largely lurk on her threads.)

Even I have no idea what Sansa fans think of her anymore.

BTW, all threads are free-for-all... Neither this nor any thread is restricted to anyone.

Although I know it won't happen, I'd love if Arya (and Tyrion, who irritates most on these boards) would join Dany's entourage as she heads West toward Westeros. After all, having a FM as a member of the Queensguard couldn't hurt...

I would adore to see Barristan being Lord Commander of Queensguard while having FM there.

I am not sure whether Dany will be taking remaining POVs in Essos with her, but I see that as a huge chance. Vic is most likely good as dead, Tyrion will be powerful ally and he is practically waiting for her. With Arya is different. She could be part of Dany's army if Dany decides to go north to Braavos and meet her. It is a chance.

[Hrafntýr]

Thanks Hrafntyr

It's an interesting question you pose about Dany, Arya and their animal familiar. Dany and Arya identify themselves as dragon and wolf, respectively, in AGOT throughout but, for me, there is a moment for each of them where they take on those identities firmly.

For Dany, it's after she's lost Rhaego and is having her fever dream. She sees Rhaegar in his armor and keeps hearing Ser Jorah's voice say "the last dragon" but when she opens the visor of the helm, it's her own face inside. When she wakes from her dream and sickness, she is stronger, more composed, the eggs are hotter than they've ever been, and of course this then leads to her entering the pyre thinking that she had known this all along.

For Arya, I think, it's at HH, her very last chapter in ACOK. Up until then, Arya describes herself as a lamb, a mouse, a ghost, Arry, Weasel, and Nan but she has put Arya aside. She's in front of the weirwood and she hears Ned's voice telling her that she is blood of the wolf. She remembers what that means, breaks the fake sword she was practicing with, proclaims that she is done with wooden teeth and then rounds up Hot Pie and Gendry to get the heck out of dodge.

So for both, we've got a lot of fear. Dany is very afraid and uncertain in her dream, trying to find her red door, trying to heal her body, ect. Arya is scared that Jaqen leaving made her a mouse again and that when Roose Bolton leaves, she'll be hurt or forced to become the mouse again. In both cases, then, the adoption of their animals identities comes at a time when they are in extreme danger.

Thanks for this, BearQueen. My first thought was that I recalled Arya saying to herself, "Wolves never cry" (though I can't remember in what circumstances) and I thought that Dany had told herself "A dragon does not weep" on several occasions. I remembered her saying that when Stalwart Shield's body was laid before her, and she heard that he had gone to a brothel to be held. However, when I checked, her thought was actually, "The blood of the dragon does not weep," which might be a little bit different from thinking herself a dragon. But if I'm right to remember Arya thinking that, we'd have cases when these thoughts of their animal identities works to overcome a very human response of pain.

[BearQueen87]

Thanks for this, BearQueen. My first thought was that I recalled Arya saying to herself, "Wolves never cry" (though I can't remember in what circumstances) and I thought that Dany had told herself "A dragon does not weep" on several occasions. I remembered her saying that when Stalwart Shield's body was laid before her, and she heard that he had gone to a brothel to be held. However, when I checked, her thought was actually, "The blood of the dragon does not weep," which might be a little bit different from thinking herself a dragon. But if I'm right to remember Arya thinking that, we'd have cases when these thoughts of their animal identities works to overcome a very human response of pain.

Agreed. It's the idea that the animal is stronger than the human and adopting that animal identity will keep you strong. And of course the animal they adopt/associate with is more than just their house sigil, they are animals that have a history being seen as strong and capable outside of their houses association. The great big wolf that can survive any winter; the legendary dragon that is almost impossible to kill.

Nymeria terrorizes the Riverlands, the location of so much of Arya's trauma. Drogon is the dragon that Dany offers up to the Slavers in Astapor before unleashing their collective wrath because of what Dany witnessed the day before.

ETA: I just figured out where you probably got Arya refusing to cry because wolves never cry from.

I won't cry, she thought, I won't do that. I am a Stark of Winterfell, our sigil is the direwolf, direwolves don't cry.

Arya I, ACOK

It's when Yoren is giving her a spanking after she beats up Hot Pie.

[DarkSister1001]

I just stumbled upon this. Beautiful essay BQ and what a great idea for a re-read project! :bowdown: As always you all never cease to amaze me with your insight and attention to detail. I hope y'all don't mind me poking around in here, great stuff!

[BearQueen87]

I just stumbled upon this. Beautiful essay BQ and what a great idea for a re-read project! :bowdown: As always you all never cease to amaze me with your insight and attention to detail. I hope y'all don't mind me poking around in here, great stuff!

Thank you! And feel free to stick around!

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Agreed. It's the idea that the animal is stronger than the human and adopting that animal identity will keep you strong. And of course the animal they adopt/associate with is more than just their house sigil, they are animals that have a history being seen as strong and capable outside of their houses association. The great big wolf that can survive any winter; the legendary dragon that is almost impossible to kill.

Nymeria terrorizes the Riverlands, the location of so much of Arya's trauma. Drogon is the dragon that Dany offers up to the Slavers in Astapor before unleashing their collective wrath because of what Dany witnessed the day before.

ETA: I just figured out where you probably got Arya refusing to cry because wolves never cry from.

BQ, you've now got me thinking about the girls and their sigils. It's so hard that Arya, Catelyn, and Robb suffered (and in the latter case, died) in the Riverlands. Arya and Robb are half Riverlander nobility, and Cat is of course the daughter of the LP of the Riverlands and served as Riverrun's de facto chatelaine after her mother died. I wonder who will rule the Riverlands after all is said and done.

Love that you've found another parallel between Dany and Arya. Both girls are associated with an actual creature who's the living embodiment of their house sigil. Nymeria is clearly the alpha of her wolf pack - she is the Stark direwolf come to life. That's not taking anything away from Ghost, Shaggy, or Summer, but both Ghost and Summer are north of the Wall near a "hinge" of the world, and Shaggy is off in Skagos somewhere. Nymeria is the only Stark dire wolf enacting the wrath of a House wronged.

And of course, Dany's three dragons are the embodiment of the Three Headed Dragon of the Targaryens...

[BearQueen87]

(sorry that this is a day early. I'll be out of my house for most of tomorrow and don't want you all waiting)

The Last Dragon and The Lone Wolf: Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark

Essay Number Two:

Blood, War, and Magic

Blood and War

Planetos is soaked with blood. I know that sounds extreme but think about it: whether it’s the Dothraki and the Lamb Men, Daenerys and the Masters of Astapor, The Mountain that Rides in the Riverlands, or Arya and Needle, the blood runneth both in Weseteros and Essos. In true-GRRM fashion, our two young ladies are not kept out of the thick of it. In fact, most often, we the readers come to understand the cost of war through the eyes of Arya and Dany. We walk the Riverlands with Arya, witnessing torture and mayhem as Arya’s tries to harden her inner self and becomes adept at killing. We ride alongside Dany through the Ghiscari Plaza and see the slaves mutilated and hear the tales of woe that befall them as Dany’s inner freedom fighter becomes more resolute and she chooses to save those who would become her “children.”

For the first part of this essay, I want to look at several moments in which both Dany and Arya are involved in some sort of bloody vengeance, with the understanding that their violent outbursts or plans stem from personal trauma and identification with the victims of those they are hurting. Neither Arya nor Dany are wantonly violent for the sake of violence, but rather in order to keep surviving—the most prevalent theme for both Dany and Arya—it is sometimes necessary to have blood on your hands. Specifically, this section will include Arya’s time at Harrenhal and the Inn at the Crossroads, and Dany with the Masters of Astapor and Meereen.

In The Riverlands and in Slaver’s Bay

None of the characters in ASOIAF are insulated or removed from their surroundings. Environments and circumstances of time and place play a central role in shaping the people we become—either for good or for ill. In order to understand the two most violent acts Dany and Arya undertake—the events of the Plaza, the 163, and, for Arya, the killings at the Inn at the Crossroads—you must first try to understand the mindset of the two characters and how the world has shaped them for these moments.

For Arya, this begins when she leaves King’s Landing and is trying to make her way North to Winterfell in the company of Yoren, Gendry, Hot Pie, and other men bound for service to the Night’s Watch. The Riverlands are in absolute chaos. Villages are deserted, there are dead bodies in the water, in the trees, and all around Arya, Death and Fear have taken hold. On top of this, Arya is living under constant worry that someone will discover who she is and take her hostage back to King’s Landing for Queen Cersei.

If we examine Arya’s journey in the Riverlands in A Clash of Kings, we can understand her mindset more when she begins to take the lives of others more frequently and with less compunction. In times of peace, the Riverlands might be a perfectly wonderful place to live, but during the War of the Five Kings, “it seemed a peaceful place…until Koss spotted the dead man.” (Arya IV, ACOK) This is paradise and childhood interrupted. How could Arya walk amongst the dead, knowing that she might be next, and not be affected by what she sees? In the same chapter Arya and her companions are set upon on by Ser Armory Lorch and our wolf girl is thrown into the thick of battle, the first real taste of a war time skirmish.

For each one Arya cut or stabbed or shoved back, another was coming over the wall…Arya jumped over a dead boy no older than Jon, lying with his arm cut off. She didn’t think she’d done it, but she wasn’t sure.

(Arya IV, ACOK)

I said in my first essay that the most common theme to Arya and Dany’s independent journeys is survival and here we have a perfect example. Arya is mostly untrained, nine years old, alone, scared, and surrounded by battle hardened men. It would be easy to lay down Needle, to “yield” as Hot Pie so famously keeps suggesting afterwards, but instead the instinct to survive kicks in. Arya isn’t sure how many men she’s killing, if it will ever let up, but she’s managing to escape. She lives (survives) through the act of killing. It’s something that will stay with her as she continues to move forward.

For Daenerys, the journey into blood and war begins in Slaver’s Bay while she contemplates buying the Unsullied and learning the manner in which the slaves are treated. Obviously, these atrocities are well known and I won’t bother to detail them all, but some passing references are needed:

Kraznys moved to the next eunuch in line, a towering youth with the blue eyes and flaxen hair of Lys. "Your sword," he said. The eunuch knelt, unsheathed the blade, and offered it up hilt first. It was a shortsword, made more for stabbing than for slashing, but the edge looked razor-sharp. "Stand," Kraznys commanded.

"Your worship." The eunuch stood, and Kraznys mo Nakloz slid the sword slowly up his torso, leaving a thin red line across his belly and between his ribs. Then he jabbed the swordpoint in beneath a wide pink nipple and began to work it back and forth.

"What is he doing?" Dany demanded of the girl, as the blood ran down the man's chest.

"Tell the cow to stop her bleating," said Kraznys, without waiting for the translation. "This will do him no great harm. Men have no need of nipples, eunuchs even less so." The nipple hung by a thread of skin. He slashed, and sent it tumbling to the bricks, leaving behind a round red eye copiously weeping blood. The eunuch did not move, until Kraznys offered him back his sword, hilt first. "Here, I'm done with you."

"This one is pleased to have served you."

"To win his spiked cap, an Unsullied must go to the slave marts with a silver mark, find some wailing newborn, and kill it before its mother's eyes. In this way, we make certain that there is no weakness left in them."

She was feeling faint. The heat, she tried to tell herself. "You take a babe from its mother's arms, kill it as she watches, and pay for her pain with a silver coin?"

"Ask her if she wishes to view our fighting pits," Kraznys added. "Douquor's Pit has a fine folly scheduled for the evening. A bear and three small boys. One boy will be rolled in honey, one in blood, and one in rotting fish, and she may wager on which the bear will eat first."

(Daenerys II, selections, ASOS)

The violent brutality Dany witnesses greatly affects her and she lashes out at those around her:

"How many men do they have for sale?"

"None." Was it Mormont she was angry with, or this city with its sullen heat, its stinks and sweats and crumbling bricks? "They sell eunuchs, not men. Eunuchs made of brick, like the rest of Astapor. Shall I buy eight thousand brick eunuchs with dead eyes that never move, who kill suckling babes for the sake of a spiked hat and strangle their own dogs? They don't even have names. So don't call them men, ser."

"Khaleesi," he said, taken aback by her fury, "the Unsullied are chosen as boys, and trained—"

"I have heard all I care to of their training." Dany could feel tears welling in her eyes, sudden and unwanted. Her hand flashed up and cracked Ser Jorah hard across the face. It was either that, or cry.

(Daenerys II, ASOS)

Arya and Dany try to harden their hearts but they do not view the wanton brutality around them with cold indifference. They are not merely passive observers. Dany and Arya recognize that they’ve lost something precious—childhood, innocence—as a result of living and trying to survive in such a harsh world:

Three black swans were gliding over the water, so serene…no one had told them that war had come and they cared nothing for burning towns and butchered men. She stared at them with yearning.

(Arya V, ACOK)

Compare this sentiment to one Dany expresses to a vision of Jorah Mormont in A Dance with Dragons in which she expresses a longing for that which she has lost:

I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.

(Daenerys X, ADWD)

However, maintaining that innocence is a next to impossible task on Planetos:

Beside the gently lapping waters of Gods Eye, a long gibbet of raw green wood had been thrown up, and things that had once been men dangled there, their feet in chains, while crows pecked at their flesh and flapped from corpse to corpse. For every crow there were a hundred flies. When the wind blew off the lake, the nearest corpse twisted on its chain, ever so slightly. The crows had eaten most of its face, and something else had been at it as well, something much larger. Throat and chest had been torn apart, and glistening green entrails and ribbons of ragged flesh dangled from where the belly had been opened. One arm had been ripped right off the shoulder; Arya saw the bones a few feet away, gnawed and cracked, picked clean of meat.

She made herself look at the next man and the one beyond him and the one beyond him, telling herself she was hard as stone.

(Arya V, ACOK)

This last statement from Arya (the bold) should sound startlingly similar to something Dany says in A Storm of Swords:

The Great Masters of Meereen had withdrawn before Dany’s advance, harvesting all they would and burning what they could not harvest. Scorched fields and poisoned wells had greeted her at every hand. Worst of all, they had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai, nailed them up still living with their entrails hanging out and one arm always outstretched to point the way to Meereen. Leading her van, Daario had given orders for the children to be taken down before Dany had to see them, but she had countermanded him as soon as she was told. “I will see them,” she said. “I will see every one, and count them, and look upon their faces. And I will remember.”

(Daenerys V, ASOS)

Returning to the Riverlands, after the skirmish with Lorch, Arya finds herself without any adults, a leader of her rag tag team of misfits. Arya’s strong sense of sympathy kicks in: she refuses to leave Lommy despite his leg injury; she refuses to leave Weasel behind despite the fact that the very young girl is a weeping mess. Even when Gendry says they should set out alone, Arya won’t abandon her growing pack. This is important to remember as it is the memory of her companions and what befell all of them—like death in Lommy’s case—which spurns some of Arya’s most violent attacks and moments. However, even her best attempts to find shelter and help are in vain as Ser Gregor and his brutes find Arya et al first. All of these factors contribute to Arya having to grow up faster than she would like and learn quite quickly how to survive in the face of death. And it is now, for the first time, that Arya truly learns what it means to be afraid.

She thought she had known what it meant to be afraid, but she learned better in that storehouse beside the God’s Eye. Eight days she and lingered there before the Mountain gave the command to march, and every day she had seen someone die.

[snip]

There was no place to hide, no tricks to play, no way to be safe….

The ones chosen were questioned in full view of the other captives, so they could see the fate of rebels and traitors. A man the others called the Tickler asked the questions.

The questions were always the same. Was there gold hidden in the village? Silver, gems? Was there more food? Where was Lord Beric Dondarrion? Which of the village folk had aided him? When he rode off, where did he go? How many men were with them? How many knights, how many bowmen, how many men-at-arms? How were they armed? How many were horsed? How many were wounded? What other enemy had they seen? How many? When? What banners did they fly? Where did they go? Was there gold hidden in the village? Silver, gems? Where was Lord Beric Dondarrion? How many men were with him? By the third day, Arya could have asked the questions herself.

[snip]

Arya watched them die and did nothing. What good did it do you to be brave?

(Arya VI, ACOK)

Sticking with Arya just a little bit longer, this is feeling of fear and dread is something we need to bear in mind. One of the major motivations for Arya’s violent turn is that she does not want to go back to this life of fear. In the storehouse by the God’s Eye and in the ruins of Harrnehal, Arya describes herself as feelings like a lamb and a mouse, respectively. But once she begins to wield the power of death over her enemies, through her friend Jaqen H’gar, she considers herself to be the ghost of Harrenhal, and it’s a powerful feeling, one that staves off the fear and dread: I was a sheep and I was a mouse; I couldn’t do anything but hide…Jaqen made me brave again. He me be a ghost instead of a mouse. (Arya IX, ACOK)

And here we have something that Arya and Dany most definitely have in common: why live in fear and let others live in fear when you have, at your disposal, a weapon (or weapons) that will keep you (and others) strong and unafraid?

When Dany thinks about the Unsullied and how they are treated in Astapor, she sees it as an injustice. She understands the torment and the fear and dread, and more importantly, she feels that she can do something about it and that she should do something about it.

"…Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did."

"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

(Daenerys III, ASOS)

Bearing in mind that Dany cannot go back into that former life, and that she has the power to release others from that life of fear, we come to Dany’s first act that is often labeled as wantonly violent.

She glimpsed old Grazdan turn his grey head sharply. He hears me speak Valyrian. The other slavers were not listening. They crowded around Kraznys and the dragon, shouting advice. Though the Astapori yanked and tugged, Drogon would not budge off the litter. Smoke rose grey from his open jaws, and his long neck curled and straightened as he snapped at the slaver's face.

It is time to cross the Trident, Dany thought, as she wheeled and rode her silver back. Her bloodriders moved in close around her. "You are in difficulty," she observed.

"He will not come," Kraznys said.

"There is a reason. A dragon is no slave." And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver's face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy's fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. "Drogon," she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. "Dracarys."

The black dragon spread his wings and roared.

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head. The sudden stench of charred meat overwhelmed even his perfume, and his wail seemed to drown all other sound.

Then the Plaza of Punishment blew apart into blood and chaos. The Good Masters were shrieking, stumbling, shoving one another aside and tripping over the fringes of their tokars in their haste

(Daenerys III, ASOS)

Notice that all of Dany’s prior fears are gone; she is a dragon and she will not suffer others to be tormented and abused in such a manner. Also, notice that Dany lays the whip across Kraznys face, turning his own punishment from the day before back on him, something we will see again with Dany and with Arya.

He stopped before a thickset man who had the look of Lhazar about him and brought his whip up sharply, laying a line of blood across one copper cheek. The eunuch blinked, and stood there, bleeding. "Would you like another?" asked Kraznys.

"If it please your worship."

(Daenerys II, ASOS)

Dany, of course, is often criticized for this moment, but I think it bears mentioning that Arya has a similar “crossing the Trident” moment when she decides that she will not be a mouse ever again.

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

(Arya X, ACOK)

This revelation leads to her (along with Hot Pie and Gendry—two individuals whom Arya fears will not fare well without her) escape from Harrenhal, during which she proves that in order to protect herself and those she has taken under her wing, she must get her hands a little messy.

Cursing her softly, the man went to a knee to grope for the coin in the dirt and there was his neck right in front of her. Arya slid her dagger out and drew it across his throat, as smooth as summer silk. His blood covered her hands in a hot gush and he tried to shout but there was blood in his mouth as well.

"Valar morghulis," she whispered as he died.

When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside, and pulled open the heavy oak door. By the time Hot Pie and Gendry came up with the horses, the rain was falling hard. "You killed him!" Hot Pie gasped.

"What did you think I would do?" Her fingers were sticky with blood, and the smell was making her mare skittish. It's no matter, she thought, swinging up into the saddle. The rain will wash them clean again.

(Arya X, ACOK)

A few things to note here. First, the lone wolf (which has to be Nymeria) howling in the background at the moment of the kill emphasizes Arya’s movement to becoming more wild and fierce and the leader of her own pack. Second, while Hot Pie is astonished that Arya would kill the guard, her only response is that it was what she intended to do all along. Killing makes Arya stronger. Without the blood on her hands, taking the life of those who are trying to prevent her from surviving, she would become a mouse again—a life she cannot go back to and continue to survive in Westeros. And when faced with grey amorality vs survival, Arya and Dany choose survival.

Having covered some of the psychology of a few events, we now come to what is arguably the most violent action from Daenerys and Arya: the crucifixion of the 163 Slavers and Arya’s killing of The Tickler at the Inn of the Crossroads. Critics of Dany talk about this moment as revenge-driven and simply “wrong” with little to no complexity behind Dany’s actions. But when it comes to Arya, a lot of people justify her very bloody slaughter of the Tickler as the workings of a young girl, traumatized by everything she has been through and seen. I won’t deny this last; certainly Arya is undergoing a psychological change. But, I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss this valid justification for Dany as well. Is Dany not similarly traumatized by all she has seen and undergone, from her turbulent childhood, to her brother dying in Vaes Dothrak, to losing her husband and son, to wandering starved in the Red Waste, to being almost eaten alive by Warlocks, to seeing 163 children brutally murdered to taunt and challenge her? I’ve been emphasizing all along that environment and circumstance play into the actions of these two ladies, and Dany’s journey to this moment in Meereen is grounded in what she has been through over the course of her life.

Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse.

(Daenerys I, AGOT)

Dany’s deep empathy for the abrupt ending of these slave children’s lives affects her so deeply because her own childhood was abruptly ended—if indeed, she ever had one at all.

When the last resistance had been crushed by the Unsullied and the sack had run its course, Dany entered her city. The dead were heaped so high before the broken gate that it took her freedmen near an hour to make a path for her silver. Joso's Cock and the great wooden turtle that had protected it, covered with horsehides, lay abandoned within. She rode past burned buildings and broken windows, through brick streets where the gutters were choked with the stiff and swollen dead. Cheering slaves lifted bloodstained hands to her as she went by, and called her "Mother."

In the plaza before the Great Pyramid, the Meereenese huddled forlorn. The Great Masters had looked anything but great in the morning light. Stripped of their jewels and their fringed tokars, they were contemptible; a herd of old men with shriveled balls and spotted skin and young men with ridiculous hair. Their women were either soft and fleshy or as dry as old sticks, their face paint streaked by tears. "I want your leaders," Dany told them. "Give them up, and the rest of you shall be spared."

"How many?" one old woman had asked, sobbing. "How many must you have to spare us?"

"One hundred and sixty-three," she answered.

She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood . . .

Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children.

(Daenerys VI, ASOS)

I don’t think anyone has ever denied that Dany killed the 163 for herself as well as the children, but it’s the anger that stems from the trauma of her earliest years and traumatic childhood that helps spurn her along. That is what we must bear in mind as we look at Arya’s act in the Inn. Recall that in the chapter in which Arya first learns what fear really is and she watches someone die every single day, she eventually thinks that she could ask the Tickler’s questions. It’s a bit of gruesome foreshadowing.

The Tickler backed away. Arya could smell his fear. The shortsword in his hand suddenly seemed almost a toy against the long blade the Hound was holding, and he wasn't armored either. He moved swiftly, light on his feet, never taking his eyes off Sandor Clegane. It was the easiest thing in the world for Arya to step up behind him and stab him.

"Is there gold hidden in the village?" she shouted as she drove the blade up through his back. "Is there silver? Gems?" She stabbed twice more. "Is there food? Where is Lord Beric?" She was on top of him by then, still stabbing. "Where did he go? How many men were with him? How many knights? How many bowmen? How many, how many, how many, how many, how many, how many? Is there gold in the village?"

(Arya VIII, ASOS)

So, why the violent outburst from Arya? In part, she is trying to protect the Hound but she is also taking revenge on the perpetrator who ended the life of people with whom she was captive and also made her afraid, made her into the lamb and the mouse. Turning the questions back on the Tickler, Arya is showing just how much her time in the storehouse affected her, just like Dany uses the exact same punishment on the Slavers that they inflicted on the slave children.

Magic

If Planetos is covered in blood, then it is also surrounded by magic. The fantastical element of magic plays a central role in the work of ASOIAF as a whole—from the dragons to the White Walkers and everything in between—and it touches the lives of just about every character. The way magic interacts with Dany is fairly self-evident from the beginning of A Game of Thrones when she is gifted three dragon eggs and has a special relationship with them culminating in the birth of her dragons. The element of magic takes longer to reach Arya, but it does eventually. When it comes to Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark and their journey with magic, I am going to contend that is one of the places where we will see a contrast. In the Dany Re-Read project, we discussed multiple times how Dany represents of both life and death as the mother (life) of dragons (death), but strictly for this essay, I want to focus on the former and not the latter. The reason for this is that I believe Arya is the opposite side of that particular coin. If Dany represents Life, then slowly, step by bloody step, Arya is becoming Death’s Avatar.

To begin, let’s look at two of the strangest places on Planetos, the House of the Undying in Qarth and the House of Black and White in Braavos.

Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening. No other buildings stood near. Black tiles covered the palace roof, many fallen or broken; the mortar between the stones was dry and crumbling.

[snip]

When they reached the door—a tall oval mouth, set in a wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face—the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen was waiting on the threshold.

[snip]

She found herself in a stone anteroom with four doors, one on each wall. With never a hesitation, she went to the door on her right and stepped through. The second room was a twin to the first. Again she turned to the right-hand door. When she pushed it open she faced yet another small antechamber with four doors. I am in the presence of sorcery.

[snip]

To her right , a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening.

(Daenerys IV, ACOK)

Over in Braavos, Arya reaches the House of Black and White:

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought.

[snip]

Slowly her eyes adjusted. The temple seemed much larger within than it had without.

(Arya I, AFFC)

There is a lot here but the two houses share quite a bit in common.

1) It’s bigger on the inside than on the outside.

2) Obviously some sort of magical temple or sanctuary

3) The motifs of black and white. The door into the House of the Undying is never explicitly said to be white like a weirwood, but given the presence of a face that is watching Dany (like it watches Arya in Braavos) it’s a safe assumption. We also know this from the door at the Nightfort on the Wall that Bran crosses through in his final ASOS POV (another location of magic that separates the land of the living from the land of the dead). The House of the Undying is also surrounded by black trees and inside Dany sees the most obvious parallel to the House of Black and White with actual black and white doors.

The inhabitants of the both locations help emphasize this “black and white” motif as well. The Undying could be termed the “forever living” but are decaying and rotten. The Kindly Man as a priest of Death helps worshipers find the “gift” but the inside of the temple and its residents are far more pleasing than the House of the Undying.

The differences for Dany and Arya come when they enter the Houses and what the residents of those houses—the Warlocks and the Faceless Men—want from the two girls. When Dany meets the Undying, their name seems appropriate given that they exist in a deathless form, but not really alive:

The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

[snip]

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead?

Her answer was a whisper as thin as a mouse's whisker. . . . we live . . . live . . . live . . . it sounded. Myriad other voices whispered echoes . . . . And know . . . know . . . know . . . know . . .

(Daenerys IV, ACOK)

While the Undying Ones will grant Dany visions of what has happened in the past, what will happen in the future and what might have happened in a different future, they expect something in return: they want Dany’s life force.

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

For the barely alive Undying, Dany represents life and the ability to fully live again. Dany runs from the House and the attempts to eat her (and her life force).

Arya, though, has a very different experience within the House of Black and White and the Faceless Men. First, we must acknowledge that the Kindly Man tells Arya that it is hard for women and girls to become a servant of the many faced god because women bring life into the world, not end it—which is reflected in Dany’s experience in the House of the Undying where she is life personified. However, Arya decides to reject this notion. She does not want to be life, but Death, something that the House of Black and White specializes in.

I also recall what Mladen wrote in response to my first essay that Arya’s role is become an alpha male. If Dany is representing the feminine in Qarth then Arya is embracing the masculine.

And, one final note as a contrast: whereas Dany-as-life is being eaten by the Undying, Arya tries to eat the Kindly Man’s “grave worm” and succeeds in kissing his skull face. I could say much and more about ritualistic eating among worshipers, but this essay is already long, so I shall be brief. The idea of eating exists in many religions across the world and is often associated with some sort of life and death motif, as we are seeing with Arya and Dany. For example, how does one affirm their status of Christian either once a month or, in some churches, on a weekly basis? Communion, which is either metaphorically or in some denominations literally ingesting the body and blood of Jesus and gaining life eternal from his death. Jesus and his body then, in Christian dogma, becomes the idea of life from death that mortals can partake in by belief and through ritualized eating.

Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces.

But can you pay the price?"

"What price?"

"The price is you. The price is all you have and all you ever hope to have. We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears, and you will walk in silence. You will give us your legs and crawl. You will be no one's daughter, no one's wife, no one's mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own.

(The Ugly Little Girl, ADWD)

The Kindly Man attempts to teach Arya that she cannot be death itself, only death’s instrument, but this is a hard lesson for Arya.

“Is that why you have come to us?” the kindly man went on. “To learn out arts, so you may kill these men you hate?”

Arya did not know how to answer that. “Maybe.”

“Then you have come to the wrong place. It is not for you to say who shall live and who shall die. That gift belongs to Him of Many Faces. We are but his servants, sworn to do his will.”

(Arya II, AFFC)

"All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

(The Blind Girl, ADWD)

Recall that the name for the God of Death as the Braavosi call him is the “God of Many Faces;” Arya has become the girl of many faces during her travels: from Arya to Arry to Weasel to Nan to Salty to Cat of the Cannels, yet another indication that she is slowly becoming Death’s Avatar.

The biggest indication, though, of her status as “death” is in what Arya is unable to do. Because Arya Stark cannot let go of herself and fully give herself over to this new empty identity to be just an instrument, she continuously kills men who have somehow wronged her: Daeron the Singer and in the Winds of Winter, “Mercy” kills Raff the Sweetling, another name on her list, something that she still repeats to herself, even though the Kindly Man is trying to get her to move past that urge to kill, to move past being Death itself.

"You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood."

Ser Gregor, she could not help but think. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei.

(The Ugly Blind Girl, ADWD)

In this regard, Dany and Arya serve as contrasts to one other: Life and Death, though you cannot have one without the other. They are two sides of the same coin, much like Fire and Ice.

There are other magical instances for Dany and Arya, though I will not overly dwell on them here as only that they serve to reemphasize the life and death motif that runs through the two ladies. Briefly, as an example, both Dany and Arya are the subject of some rather vague prophetic utterances from women who are incredibly (and frustratingly) unclear: Quaithe and the Ghost of High Heart.

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

(Daenerys III, ACOK)

Here, Quaithe associates Dany and her status as the Mother of Dragons for the reason why magic is coming back into the world, as if Dany herself birthed magical power along with her three dragons.

The Ghost of High Heart has a different take on Arya:

She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee.

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

When the Ghost of High Heart looks at Arya, she does not see wonder and life as Quiathe does when she looks at Dany. Instead, the Ghost of High Heart sees death and sorrow and blood.

Life. And Death.

Conclusion to Essay Two

I recognize that this was a very long essay but I think that the three most common actions underpinning the theme of survival for Arya and Dany are blood, war and magic, so they needed expounded upon. In the end, Dany and Arya are trying to do their best to survive in a world that really would rather they not—whether this manifests in outside forces like the Slavers or the armies of the Riverlands or an internal force telling them to give up and become sheep and mice. Finally, Arya and Dany seem to be on opposite sides of the life and death situation, even though their journeys into both are eerily similar.

[Ser Creighton]

BQ, you've now got me thinking about the girls and their sigils. It's so hard that Arya, Catelyn, and Robb suffered (and in the latter case, died) in the Riverlands. Arya and Robb are half Riverlander nobility, and Cat is of course the daughter of the LP of the Riverlands and served as Riverrun's de facto chatelaine after her mother died. I wonder who will rule the Riverlands after all is said and done.

Love that you've found another parallel between Dany and Arya. Both girls are associated with an actual creature who's the living embodiment of their house sigil. Nymeria is clearly the alpha of her wolf pack - she is the Stark direwolf come to life. That's not taking anything away from Ghost, Shaggy, or Summer, but both Ghost and Summer are north of the Wall near a "hinge" of the world, and Shaggy is off in Skagos somewhere. Nymeria is the only Stark dire wolf enacting the wrath of a House wronged.

And of course, Dany's three dragons are the embodiment of the Three Headed Dragon of the Targaryens...

I don't know if I would say that about Ghost and Summer all the living wolves are doing what their owners seek to do. Summer is north of the wall and is trying to survive. He has a new pack but it's not his true pack. Ghost is at the wall with Jon and was helping prepare for the Others. He found the dragon glass, and the bodies. Shaddy dog seems wild like Rickard, and of course Nymeria as you say is acting out Arya's wrath in a lot of way. They all seem very symbolic of their owners, but all are doing different things like their owners.

But Drogon and Nymeria are a bit intresting in that they both were driven off for fear of being captured. Plus the association Martin placed on Dany and Nymeria the Queen. Nymeria the wolf is also leading her people though in a much more aggressive fashion. And to be clear for anyone reading the author said Dany was like Nymeria. But in the case just like Summers pack, Nymeria and Dany do not have their real families. Nymeria has another pack and Dany does have family and a home and a place where she is from and in truth belongs. Not just because she wants to be there or her perception, but her own dreams and visions point to this, they point to her home and to her family. The red door in Braavos may be a red door in Braavos, but Martin works in layers and their is more to that door than meets the eye and enough information exists to tell you what and who that door represents.

Arya and Dany also share the doors of the HotU, and the FM. I didn't trust the Warlocks and I don't trust the Assassins. Call me crazy Assassins can be bad. Cool powers and stuff but still bad.

[DarkSister1001]

(sorry that this is a day early. I'll be out of my house for most of tomorrow and don't want you all waiting)

The Last Dragon and The Lone Wolf: Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark

Essay Number Two:

Blood, War, and Magic

Wonderfully done, as usual! I enjoyed considering all the similarities and differences between these two dangerous women. Wolf blood and the blood of the dragon. Particularly the part about magic. When I read the passages you pointed out in the book, Dany with the Masters and Arya with the Tickler and then later with Raff I had an overwhelming feeling of "Hell Yeah!" for both of them. I never did understand why Dany got so much crap for that. I'm not a violent person, but if I had the means and opportunity to avenge 163 murdered children I would do it without hesitation.

It'll be very interesting to see how their pasts, the way the deal with life and death and the judgments and justice they dole out will play in the development of their characters.

[SeanF]

Another great essay.

The treatment that's meted out to the Unsullied and the slave children on the road to Meereen is grotesque, even by the standards of this world.

More typical is the violence that Dany witnesses in the Lhazareen village, which is similar to the violence that Arya experiences in the Riverlands. Men and boys are killed for sport. Women are repeatedly raped. The survivors are rounded up as slaves (slavery is illegal in Westeros, but the treatment of the captives is much the same). Dany and Arya are both horrified by what they witness, but also brutalised by it. They both have huge empathy for the victims, but neither turns her back on violence as a means to achieve her goals. Dany does what she can to mitigate the suffering, but still comments (correctly) that "this is the price of the Iron Throne". Shortly afterwards, she'll burn her enemy alive, in order to hatch her dragons, rather than following Ser Jorah's suggestion that she sells them, and live in comfortable obscurity. Once the dragons have been hatched, she's chosen a violent path. Arya, of course, becomes an increasingly hardened killer as the story progresses.

Dany and Arya both have mixed feelings towards violence. In part, they're repelled by it (the suffering of innocents). In part, they enjoy it and are good at it (dealing out death to the wicked). Mostly, their victims thoroughly deserve what happens to them. No one will shed any tears for Kraznys, Grazdan, The Tickler, Chiswick, Raff the Sweetling, or the majority of the Masters of Astapor and Meereen. But, I think a lot of readers will find cases to query. Was Mirri Maz Duur more sinned against than sinning? Did Daeron and the insurance broker really deserve to die? Can we be sure that every one of the 163 Masters who were crucified was responsible for the murder of the slave children? Did the ordinary free population of Meereen deserve to be on the receiving end of murder, rape, and pillage?

[Ser Creighton]

Actually once the dragons are hatched she chooses to go into the red waster because she has no choice. Then she considers living in that abandoned city. The Qarth comes to her. Then Qarth tries to kill her, he did not bring violence to them, them brought it to her.

She is them advised to go to Astapor. So she made a choice and those atrocities go without question. But again she did bring violence to Astapor it was already there. It was all over slavers bay which was built by the blood of slaves. I think Daario said it true, the Master brought this on themselves.

Sean the 163 is often a debate on this board, but I don't think it is the right debate. The question being posed is were any on these slave masters innocent. They are slave master, there is an extreme lack of innocense among them. Martin did not make the big deal out of the scene that some fans have. I always felt the question is not about slaver innocence which seems almost ridiculous to me. But rather it was about the level of the punishment. Dant gave them a choice turn over the Leaders or you all die. How many she is asked. 163 she says. That is a small number given their attrocities, and it's not like the slavers don't know what this is about themoment she says that.

The question Martin posses is never about who is innocent or guilty, but rather was the manner of the punishment to harsh. Dany questions this herself, and that is underrstandable. "Harsh justice is still justice." she says, either way the slavers were going to pay for their crimes. But it was the manner she did it in. She could of just had them beheaded or hung. It was more about how she killed them, not that she killed 163 slavers. She does not feel guilty about hanging murders, she does question the means in which she killed the 163 and Martin is not giving you anything to suggest the slavers are innocent of that crime or any of their crimes. Was Martin going to have 163 trials? Should have written how they were all picked out and who picked them out?

It's not about innocent slavers or good slavers, they are slavers there is not a lot of grey to play with there. Well I didn't have anythign to do with the 163 but I did toss 3 children into a Bear pit yesterday, it was hysterical. It's not like the slavers are presented in a good light. The 163 is not about who was guilty of this or that, it is not about the why, you know the why. It's about how she did it. If you start questioning everything that is all you will have. Lets say some say they are innocent of the 163 children and their friends and family support this. As you can question if 163 slavers were innocent, I can question if they are lying. Are we going to ask for DNA testing. 163 criminal cases to be heard before a trial, with testemony. Martin does not offer you their innocense he does not even hint at it, he gives you these monsterous slavers and asks you to question the manner in which Dany kills them. What is he going to say they are innocent of? He made them slave masters for a reason. It's not about their innocences, it's about how far Dany is willing to go and when does she cross the line. He did not have the slave masters slaughter 163 children, kill thousands of babies, throw children into Bear pits, to have you pitty them over harsh justice. The question is about Dany and how cruel she is willing to become, will she stoop to their level.

I fully understand her rage in that moment, how does anyone not? Do I agree with the means inwhich she killed them? Not really, but I do not feel bad for the slave masters and I do not think slave masters are innocent because it is never presented that way by the author. When your job title is Slave Master and your list of atrocities reads like a demons resume the author is not giving you much to sympathize with. That's his job that is what he does. The difference in the morailty of what the slaverrs did and what Dany did is this. The slavers commited yet another atrocity by butchering 163 innocent children. Dany was a reaction to that action, the slavers are guilty of countless crimes and were not given anything from the author to suggest otherwise. Just the opposite in fact he lays on their atrocities with a heavy hand. Now suddenly they are innocent because we have to question everything. You can question if the moon is made cheese but in the end, it's still the moon.

The old man and the sea. Why did the old man do what he did? Because the old man was just being the old man, and the fish was just being a fish. We are who are, and the slave masters are who the slave masters are and Dany is who she is. Question it all you want, but the slavers did what they did and do what they do. They are not innocent, the question Martin presents is not about that or he would at least hint at it. It points simply at the manner in which she did it.

ETA: Just a question. You see Martin gave us a compare and contrast with the 163. Now some assume some of the 163 slave masters must be innocent. Not text support but an assumption. Why? Nobody assumes any of the 163 children which are the direct compare and contrast the author establishes are guilty. You know why? Because he labled the children, just like he labled the 163 slavers the Leaders of the Great slave masters. So if you can except the 163 children as being innocent without any information on them, just going on by what Martin said they were, then why can't people do it with the slave masters after he establishes their atrocities? You are given the context, you can accept one but not the other based only on assumption because of a label the author placed.

[MoIaF]

(sorry that this is a day early. I'll be out of my house for most of tomorrow and don't want you all waiting)

The Last Dragon and The Lone Wolf: Daenerys Targaryen and Arya Stark

Essay Number Two:

Blood, War, and Magic

Another fantastic essay BearQueen87!

Blood and War

I find it really interesting that although both Dany and Arya are changed by their experience they are not corrupted or jaded by what they have been through and seen. Many others would just survive and fight for themselves and their own survival yet Dany and Arya want to fight for themselves but they also want to fight for others.

They both learn something that few people would learn experiencing what they did which is self-empowerment. It's a rising from the ashes for the two of them, as you say they are both survivors.

There violent behavior is very much a part of the world they live in and what they have seen and experienced. For Dany she saw some of the foulest behavior humanly possible (the making of the Unsillies, the fighting pits with the honey children throned at bears, etc...) and her response is very much on key with what she experienced.

As Ser Creighton commented above, I don't believe that GRRM is asking us to think about the "poor" "innocent" slavers but about Dany herself. Has what she experienced corrupted her in an irrevocable way, my answer would be no. She has most definitely been changed and darkened by these events, however, who she is at her core is still the same. She doesn't need violence to do justice, but it is the best way she knows how to do justice. Can she learn differently, I believe so but we will have to way and see. The same is true for Arya.

Magic

Finally, Arya and Dany seem to be on opposite sides of the life and death situation, even though their journeys into both are eerily similar.

I really like how you showed Dnay and Arya as two sides of the same coin, Life and Death. It's an interesting perspective of how their characters have developed and what they have take from their experiences.

In Dany's last chapter in ADWD she calls herself once again Mother of Dragons, she remembers what is her purpose. In Meereen she had forgotten that, to a point she had forgotten her freedmen, her other children. There was a time she didn't even want to hold court anymore she had felt so defeated. As Tyrion said, above all else she's a rescuer, and I think she remembered that, she wants to save lives. The juxtaposition with that is tat to save those particular lives 9slaves) she has to take life.

[BearQueen87]

Thanks DarkSister, SeanF, and MOIAF

This was the hardest essay to write, so I'm glad you all enjoyed it.

1. Can we be sure that every one of the 163 Masters who were crucified was responsible for the murder of the slave children?

2.Did the ordinary free population of Meereen deserve to be on the receiving end of murder, rape, and pillage?

1. I won't lie, even if one of those leaders spoke out against the killing of the 163 children, they were still the part of the slave trade that were throwing children to bears, raping, mutilating, and torturing. Dany never says, "I am killing you for the death of the 163 children." She just takes 163 of the leaders and kills them. Now, would the leaders know the significance of that number? Probably. But she never gives any reason for why she is killing them, outside of the cost of war and to secure her own throne.

2. I admit, that's a problem and part of the biggest problem with her conquest of SB--there was no plan. But, when you're dealing with the level of depravity that exists in SB, is it worth sitting down and making some sort of meticulous plan? Or is it better to end it post haste?

As Ser Creighton commented above, I don't believe that GRRM is asking us to think about the "poor" "innocent" slavers but about Dany herself. Has what she experienced corrupted her in an irrevocable way, my answer would be no. She has most definitely been changed and darkened by these events, however, who she is at her core is still the same. She doesn't need violence to do justice, but it is the best way she knows how to do justice. Can she learn differently, I believe so but we will have to way and see. The same is true for Arya.

I think it was @Nictarion who wondered in another thread why GRRM would think of the type of debates we have over Dany. Does he want us to question if she was right to kill the slaver, or the manner in which she did it. I think it's the latter. I don't think GRRM was intending for his readers to feel bad for the slavers--hence really showing all the atrocities of SB.

[Parwan]

Well, truth is that standards are indeed higher for heroes. Just as people judge Cat or Sansa, they will judge Daenerys, because the good people get to be judged sometimes more harshly than villains. And, I mean, is there an actual debate whether Ramsay or Gregor are monsters? No.

...

Interestingly, the answer seems to be "yes." I've participated in a few threads on the general subject of evil in ASoIaF. Some posters affirm the line that "Evil is a human construct. No such thing exists in nature." A similar line is "No human being is truly evil." I cannot claim to speak for these posters, but I believe that at least some of them would object to labelling any person a monster.

The concept of evil interests me. I maintain that the "no such thing as evil" argument usually relies on a naturalist, i.e. a non-theistic and non-magical, view of reality. Thus, it is very hard to apply to fantasies like ASoIaF. In Martin's work, there are transcendent powers. There may or may not be individual entities like the Great Other; there definitely are characters who can access knowledge, energy, etc. which cannot be considered "natural." Trying to explain all of this in terms of human constructs is difficult. I say that it misses important points. Some of the powers in question do seem to be malignant, perhaps malevolent. Why not call them evil? This is certainly not a matter of a group of people just placing a bad label on something they don't like.

These issues have wide applicability. Of relevance to the current thread: Both Arya and Daenerys believe in evil, and both of them encounter things they consider evil. Neither of them do well in thinking through important questions about magic and evil. This isn't surprising. Neither young woman is an intellectual, and both of them have practical worries that don't touch on philosophy and theology. However, the matter is important.

Bringing forth dragons from stone is a remarkable accomplishment. But one shouldn't ignore the fact that this was done through blood magic. The principle that "only death can pay for life" is troublesome. Who or what requires this? Someone or something demands a human life (and possibly considerable human suffering) in order for desired results to be produced. It's hard to see how this could be good. It's also hard to see how it is purely a thing constructed by human beings. Striking back against people who have harmed you is a natural response. If some guy you saved from a fire will help you to strike back, then most people would probably elect to work with the guy. However, he says, "The Red God has his due" and "This girl must give three in their places." We have the same problem here, though it is more specific. Jaqen H'ghar is stating basic principles, and they are quite troubling. A thoughtful, objective observer would say, "Man, there has to be something badly screwed up about this Red God. Three people were saved, therefore three people must be killed? What the hell kind of rule is that?" Also, no limits are placed on Arya's request. If she names Sansa, Hodor, and Septon Meribald, then the rule is fulfilled. Of course, she isn't going to do this. That is not the point. Something is fundamentally wrong here, and this fact is not properly grasped.

...

I think it was @Nictarion who wondered in another thread why GRRM would think of the type of debates we have over Dany. Does he want us to question if she was right to kill the slaver, or the manner in which she did it. I think it's the latter. I don't think GRRM was intending for his readers to feel bad for the slavers--hence really showing all the atrocities of SB.

There are multiple issues involved. I will restate an opinion I've put forth a few times: Dany took revenge when she should have taken control.

Arya is not a ruler and doesn't appear to be heading toward any sort of governmental position. Thus, there isn't much to compare between the two young women in this case.

[BearQueen87]

There are multiple issues involved. I will restate an opinion I've put forth a few times: Dany took revenge when she should have taken control.

Arya is not a ruler and doesn't appear to be heading toward any sort of governmental position. Thus, there isn't much to compare between the two young women in this case.

You mean in terms of revenge? Cause...the 4000 words I spent a week and half writing would disagree :-P

There is no direct parallel, I agree, because there is a lot that isn't similar. Body count, location, trauma leading up to the incidents in Slaver's Bay and the Riverlands. But I disagree that there is just not much to compare. The motivation, the psychology, the issues lying behind the killing of the Tickler and the Slavers

[Ser Creighton]

Ok so I don't want this to turn into another 163 thread, and I finally finished reading the whole essay. Not that I thought it was long I just get interrupted a lot.

So a couple things I found intresting were the name Koss when Arya was traveling with Yoren and the word or title Kos from the Dothraki. Just wanted to point that out.

Anyway onto life and death. I think early on with Arya we that while vengence is a motivation, it is not blind. She does have a list though latter this will change. Dany of course has a number she does not wish to kill all the slavers and while she was cruel to them and the justice was harsh it was not about just killing all of them.

Another point about the 163 and Dany's motivation is children, and you will see her mention this, she will never have a child and it seems she does want children. So for her seeing the meaningless slaughter of those children as if they were nothing must be beyond rage inducing. Later one we will see her heart breaking when she forgets the name of the girl Drogon killed as well. This I think shows some of the effects that Meereen has had on her.

But she does not go past 163, as Arya has her list. They both have a natural sense of justice and of balancing the scales.

I think the part I like best is the the comparison of the house of the undying and the temple of the Many faced god. You point out the contrast and I very much agree. The black and white door is on the inside of the HotU while the Black and White door is an external door. There is also Dany's ebony bench and I believe a very well described chair in the Temple that Arya sits on. Both Dany and Arya are offered a drink, one is to help Dany see and the other is to bliind Arya. In the Temple to drink is to die, in the HotU it is fire that becomes death there.

Though I would debate the dragons as symbols of death. The Fire the life is a very specific phrase, the dragons can kill life no question. But anyone can do that as well. But in the HotU it is death that Drogon destorys, and I know of an undead army in Westeros that could use a little burning. So while capable of killing I think they are also capable of saving lives as well which we see them do. The did kill slavers, but also were used to help free slaves.

With the masculine and feminine though I am not so sure that is a contrast. Dany is often called mother and she did give the dragons life. But in her own dreams she sees herself as Rhaegar, and is compared to Aegon as well. She leads a host, and while not a warrior like Arya she is a general, she does go over the battle plans and is rather good at it. There is also her inability to have children, much like Nymeria and well Nymeria she has taken on what would be considered a male role in the context of this world. Nymeria the wolf is the Alpha of her pack, she leads them, usually a male wolf does that. Dany leads her people as well, and upon the back of Drogon she may also lead them into battle from now on.

Now Arya on the other hand probably can have kids but I doubt she wants them. In many ways they are different and same at the same time. The other contrast is that Arya is this lone wolf and that is by choice, while Dany is surrounded by people but always feels alone.

I think you are very correct on life and death though. At least at this point in the story. Arya does seek death but also we have seen her take a name off the list. Dany very much is symbolic of life though not in the traditional sense. Mother, mother of dragons, mother to the Freemen. But intresting enough a daughter of death. Which seems rather tragic in a way. If Arya finds that out she will probably want to be Toets besties. Dany and Arya also sit is stark contrast of location, Dany is in slavers bay and has been dealing with the 3 slaver cities there, while Arya is on the island established by escaped slaves.

Oh and just to add when I say traditional roles for woman I am talking about in that world and in the established context given within. Don't want to insult any of you wonderful ladies by accident.

[BearQueen87]

Ok so I don't want this to turn into another 163 thread, and I finally finished reading the whole essay. Not that I thought it was long I just get interrupted a lot.

(it was also really long)

So a couple things I found intresting were the name Koss when Arya was traveling with Yoren and the word or title Kos from the Dothraki. Just wanted to point that out.

Very interesting.

But she does not go past 163, as Arya has her list. They both have a natural sense of justice and of balancing the scales.

I agree, but they do have moments where they go a bit beyond. Daeron is an interesting case for Arya. He's not on her list but he has wronged someone, and more specifically, he's wronged Jon Snow. Jon might never know why Daeron died or the sort of tomfoolery Daeron was getting up to in Braavos, but Arya knows the deal and would call it just...And just to point out, she's carrying on what her father did. If Daeron was a deserter and broke his vows, then what would Ned do? Just read Bran I in AGOT.

Though I would debate the dragons as symbols of death. The Fire the life is a very specific phrase, the dragons can kill life no question. But anyone can do that as well. But in the HotU it is death that Drogon destorys, and I know of an undead army in Westeros that could use a little burning. So while capable of killing I think they are also capable of saving lives as well which we see them do. The did kill slavers, but also were used to help free slaves.

I guess dragons are more responsible for death and destruction than they are life and nurturing, the two aspects I associate with "mother"

Side note, it's one of the reasons why I love Dany so much. She's just full of contradictions that she's constantly wresting with. When she crucifies the 163, she thinks it makes her feel like an avenging dragon. But then later she is sickened by it (side note number two: why does THAT never come up in debates?). She's a woman and a queen but thinks she can only be one. She's as old as the crones in Vaes Dothrak but as young as her dragons (love that quote)

With the masculine and feminine though I am not so sure that is a contrast. Dany is often called mother and she did give the dragons life. But in her own dreams she sees herself as Rhaegar, and is compared to Aegon as well. She leads a host, and while not a warrior like Arya she is a general, she does go over the battle plans and is rather good at it. There is also her inability to have children, much like Nymeria and well Nymeria she has taken on what would be considered a male role in the context of this world. Nymeria the wolf is the Alpha of her pack, she leads them, usually a male wolf does that. Dany leads her people as well, and upon the back of Drogon she may also lead them into battle from now on.

Very good point.

Oh and just to add when I say traditional roles for woman I am talking about in that world and in the established context given within. Don't want to insult any of you wonderful ladies by accident.

:)

[Ser Creighton]

Interestingly, the answer seems to be "yes." I've participated in a few threads on the general subject of evil in ASoIaF. Some posters affirm the line that "Evil is a human construct. No such thing exists in nature." A similar line is "No human being is truly evil." I cannot claim to speak for these posters, but I believe that at least some of them would object to labelling any person a monster.

The concept of evil interests me. I maintain that the "no such thing as evil" argument usually relies on a naturalist, i.e. a non-theistic and non-magical, view of reality. Thus, it is very hard to apply to fantasies like ASoIaF. In Martin's work, there are transcendent powers. There may or may not be individual entities like the Great Other; there definitely are characters who can access knowledge, energy, etc. which cannot be considered "natural." Trying to explain all of this in terms of human constructs is difficult. I say that it misses important points. Some of the powers in question do seem to be malignant, perhaps malevolent. Why not call them evil? This is certainly not a matter of a group of people just placing a bad label on something they don't like.

These issues have wide applicability. Of relevance to the current thread: Both Arya and Daenerys believe in evil, and both of them encounter things they consider evil. Neither of them do well in thinking through important questions about magic and evil. This isn't surprising. Neither young woman is an intellectual, and both of them have practical worries that don't touch on philosophy and theology. However, the matter is important.

Bringing forth dragons from stone is a remarkable accomplishment. But one shouldn't ignore the fact that this was done through blood magic. The principle that "only death can pay for life" is troublesome. Who or what requires this? Someone or something demands a human life (and possibly considerable human suffering) in order for desired results to be produced. It's hard to see how this could be good. It's also hard to see how it is purely a thing constructed by human beings. Striking back against people who have harmed you is a natural response. If some guy you saved from a fire will help you to strike back, then most people would probably elect to work with the guy. However, he says, "The Red God has his due" and "This girl must give three in their places." We have the same problem here, though it is more specific. Jaqen H'ghar is stating basic principles, and they are quite troubling. A thoughtful, objective observer would say, "Man, there has to be something badly screwed up about this Red God. Three people were saved, therefore three people must be killed? What the hell kind of rule is that?" Also, no limits are placed on Arya's request. If she names Sansa, Hodor, and Septon Meribald, then the rule is fulfilled. Of course, she isn't going to do this. That is not the point. Something is fundamentally wrong here, and this fact is not properly grasped.

There are multiple issues involved. I will restate an opinion I've put forth a few times: Dany took revenge when she should have taken control.

Arya is not a ruler and doesn't appear to be heading toward any sort of governmental position. Thus, there isn't much to compare between the two young women in this case.

You are saying there is something wrong in the magical world where people believe gods needs their do? Where slavery is at an extreme, there is blood magic, Dragons, zombies, Ice Monsters, dead tree dudes, war, and in general things seem unfair? Yes Parwan something is wrong sort of like our world but with magic.

Only death can pay for life. In some cases this is very true, now you have sacrifices and you have sacrifices. What Halfhand did for Jon, saved Jon's life, only death can pay for life. Mirri took a life, Dany took one back. But it does no always work like that.

Parwan do you think the many gods of death actually speak to the FM and tell them what to do? They don't, they have a religious belief and they follow it. There actually have been several cults like this. It's not the magic that is evil or the dragons, it's who weilds it, what they choose to do with it. This is about humans, the gods are not making any choices they are. And lets face the human race has a very curious track record of both brilliance and crazy. The conflict of the human heart is one of the main themes, we are capable of both good and evil, love and hate etc. It's not about the magic, it is about what someone is willing to do to get it, and what they will do with it. Those are the questions a chracter has to ask themselves.

Dany should of taken control but she took revenge? She did take control, what would you have her do? Nothing? How about everyone do nothing then we can have a series about nothing and discuss the philosophy of nothing. Would you have her apply some philosophy that you read about, that doesn't exist in her world?

[Parwan]

You mean in terms of revenge? Cause...the 4000 words I spent a week and half writing would disagree :-P

There is no direct parallel, I agree, because there is a lot that isn't similar. Body count, location, trauma leading up to the incidents in Slaver's Bay and the Riverlands. But I disagree that there is just not much to compare. The motivation, the psychology, the issues lying behind the killing of the Tickler and the Slavers

I could have been clearer. On matters like killing, revenge, reaction to horrible experiences, etc., there is a lot to compare. I was just talking about the matter of ruling. Aya isn't a ruler, so her ability in that area can't be compared to Dany's.