The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[Parwan]

So this theme has been brought up in the Bran Re-Read lately and I thought it might make an interesting conversation piece over here as well. As MOIAF and QA have pointed out in their series, Bran and Dany are two of the characters who interact with magic most in this series. We're pondering over in Bran if this is all fate or free will. How many of Bran's choices are his own making and how many times has the 3EC/BR guided him through magic to making certain decisions, and perhaps most importantly, is magic a divine force that is pushing Brandon Stark in a certain direction.

With this last question, I think we can extend it back to Dany as well. Is magic guiding her footsteps and how many of her choices are her own? Is magic pushing Daenerys Targaryen in a certain direction or is Dany walking her own path free of the magic that runs throughout ASOIAF/Planetos.

Something or someone is reaching out to Daenerys. Something or someone is reaching out to Bran. This sets the two characters apart from others who are involved in magic. They are both, in some sense, "chosen." They do not ask for what happens to them; it just happens. Of course, this does not prove that either the Stark boy or the Targaryen girl is one of the heroes of myth, but it seems extremely likely that they are somehow connected to the myths. For a few generations, Dany's forebears looked for dragons. Then the dragons looked for Dany. In Bran's case, we have more info on who was reaching out to him and how the reaching was done. Also, Bran gets better guidance in the ways of magic than the dragon queen does. Neither Jojen nor Meera come up with cryptic and irritating slogans like "To get fat, you must quit eating." In both cases, however, the two characters are selected by forces they do not understand and driven pretty hard by said forces.

Now, the fact that you are pushed in a certain direction does not mean that your free will has been taken from you. I don't think that the questions you ask have definitive answers. I believe things are uncertain, appropriately uncertain given the nature of magic in Martin's world. The Mother of The Others once called Daenerys Targaryen "a magic savant." That's a good phrase. Such people often have a certain obsessive quality about them, but they are not just robots.

Dany and Bran are both "naturals." People like Jon and Arya also belong in this category. There are other people who learn magic in a more organized and intentional way. As MoIaF said, magic in-universe is not carefully structured; there is no overall set of always-dependable principles. This, however, doe not mean there are no rules at all. Different groups have come up with different things that work. Some of these people (e.g. the red priests) have a theology, with beliefs, prayers, and a liturgy. Others (e.g. some of the wargs) make themselves useful, helping the wildlings for example. Also, it's possible to learn various practices and techniques. Marwyn and MMD didn't go to Asshai on vacation. They wanted to learn important facts and procedures, and they did this. In all, we have different characters acquiring knowledge, accomplishing things in a reasonably predictable manner, and passing worthwhile practices on to colleagues and associates.

We have had some interesting encounters and collisions. More are coming. One of these I have mentioned before--the meeting between the worshipers of R'hllor and Queen Daenerys. Surely, Dany won't be compelled to act in any particular manner toward Moqorro and his friends. On the other hand, I don't think she will be able to just "walk her own path." I'm looking forward to the meeting.

[MoIaF]

Parwan - as always a very insightful commentary.

As you say Bran has had more guidance than Dany, the 3EC comes to him often and of course Jojen and Meera. They are mostly direct about what they need Bran to do, but as you say tho the influence is there it is up to Bran to decide what to do. We do see that he internally resist this magical pull especially from the 3EC, however, he eventually decides to accept his gifts. How much was it persuasion and how much of it was a free-willed decision is debatable, which is what we are doing here.

For Dany it's a bit more complicated. As I noted in the first essay there might be signs that Quaithe came to Dany in her fevered dream and who knows how her dragon dreams were prompted especially the one she had prior to receiving the dragon eggs. There is a magical subconscious pull, not as direct as Bran's but it's still there. Her walking into the pyre was to an extent prompted by her dream, she put other instances together with the dream and realized what she had to do. However, even if the dream gave her the knowledge, they didn't make her do it. Dany had to freely make the decision to trust her instincts to believe it would be possible and to me that was also part of the magic in the pyre.

So I guess there is a magical influence that has helped push Bran and Dany in a direction, however, it has also been guided by their own choices, Dany more so than Bran. If you look at Dany her time in Slaver's Bay is most certainly not what Quaith would have recommended.

[BearQueen87]

Parwan - as always a very insightful commentary.

As you say Bran has had more guidance than Dany, the 3EC comes to him often and of course Jojen and Meera. They are mostly direct about what they need Bran to do, but as you say tho the influence is there it is up to Bran to decide what to do. We do see that he internally resist this magical pull especially from the 3EC, however, he eventually decides to accept his gifts. How much was it persuasion and how much of it was a free-willed decision is debatable, which is what we are doing here.

We've noted this quite a bit over in the Bran Re-read but Bran is often given two competing choices (the magical or the mundane) and asked to chose which one to follow. Both sides present convincing arguments for Bran choosing one or the other but ultimately the choice rests with him. This could be the Luwin or Osha debate in which Bran could become a maester like Luwin but never learn magic or how to fly; or he can "march north," the advice Osha gives and find the 3EC and magic. In ASOS Jojen tells him to chose their next path: Karhold or White Harbor or taking the very long journey north of the Wall to find the 3EC. In the end it's Bran who chooses that he wants to fly. I do have to wonder, though, if Bran's pull toward magic would be as strong if he 1) wasn't crippled and 2) hadn't had a visit from the 3EC in his coma dream. So in that regards, he was pushed down a certain path very early on and is simply following the way he was told to go, with options for detours if he decided to take them. But, wondering out loud here, if he did decide to take one of those detours (say go to White Harbor and not North) would magic or the 3EC "course correct" Bran to put him back on the desired path?

For Dany it's a bit more complicated. As I noted in the first essay there might be signs that Quaithe came to Dany in her fevered dream and who knows how her dragon dreams were prompted especially the one she had prior to receiving the dragon eggs. There is a magical subconscious pull, not as direct as Bran's but it's still there. Her walking into the pyre was to an extent prompted by her dream, she put other instances together with the dream and realized what she had to do. However, even if the dream gave her the knowledge, they didn't make her do it. Dany had to freely make the decision to trust her instincts to believe it would be possible and to me that was also part of the magic in the pyre.

I totally agree with you but, wondering out loud again, if Dany never had those dragon dreams--the one pre-wedding and the coma dreams--which seem to have hints of Quaithe even before we ever met Quaithe, then would Dany be so self assured that walking into the pyre was the right course of action?

So I guess there is a magical influence that has helped push Bran and Dany in a direction, however, it has also been guided by their own choices, Dany more so than Bran. If you look at Dany her time in Slaver's Bay is most certainly not what Quaith would have recommended.

Quaithe would have Dany out of SB faster than a dragon flies, you're right. Heaven forbid Quaithe actually say that, though. And BR would have wanted Bran to come north sooner than Bran did, so I do wonder if BR is responsible for sending Jojen the Winged Wolf dream to get Bran the help he needed quicker.

[MoIaF]

We've noted this quite a bit over in the Bran Re-read but Bran is often given two competing choices (the magical or the mundane) and asked to chose which one to follow. Both sides present convincing arguments for Bran choosing one or the other but ultimately the choice rests with him. This could be the Luwin or Osha debate in which Bran could become a maester like Luwin but never learn magic or how to fly; or he can "march north," the advice Osha gives and find the 3EC and magic. In ASOS Jojen tells him to chose their next path: Karhold or White Harbor or taking the very long journey north of the Wall to find the 3EC. In the end it's Bran who chooses that he wants to fly. I do have to wonder, though, if Bran's pull toward magic would be as strong if he 1) wasn't crippled and 2) hadn't had a visit from the 3EC in his coma dream. So in that regards, he was pushed down a certain path very early on and is simply following the way he was told to go, with options for detours if he decided to take them. But, wondering out loud here, if he did decide to take one of those detours (say go to White Harbor and not North) would magic or the 3EC "course correct" Bran to put him back on the desired path?

It goes back to the discussion of freewill vs. destiny - how much of the story is preordained and how much is happening at the choices of our protagonist.

Do you remember in the Dany re-read when we discussed how Dany has accomplished many of the requisites for the AAR myth without even knowing it, how much was that on her and how much was it meant to happen. I would hate for the series to be about per-determined roads, I like the idea that our protagonist can and should make choices that will lead them in the direction of their choice. Like, I think that Dany's time in Slaver's Bay was not destines, we don't hear any stories about a prophesied savior to the slaves, what she did was of her own choice. However, something that most likely was destined (the return of the dragons) allowed her to make the choices she made, without the dragons she could have never freed the slaves.

It's interesting but very confusing to me.

I totally agree with you but, wondering out loud again, if Dany never had those dragon dreams--the one pre-wedding and the coma dreams--which seem to have hints of Quaithe even before we ever met Quaithe, then would Dany be so self assured that walking into the pyre was the right course of action?

Probably not, the dragon dreams basically told her that she could walk into the fire and would be okay. Otherwise, I don't think Dany is crazy enough to walk into a pyre just because. She says it herself when she sees the comet, she says something like "it was meant to be this way"/ So Dany does understand that part of her future is sort of destine.

Quaithe would have Dany out of SB faster than a dragon flies, you're right. Heaven forbid Quaithe actually say that, though. And BR would have wanted Bran to come north sooner than Bran did, so I do wonder if BR is responsible for sending Jojen the Winged Wolf dream to get Bran the help he needed quicker.

I think so, Jojen came to bran because of the 3EC, sort of an insurance to push Bran North. He was definitely influenced heavily to go North (Bran) but he did have a lot of respect for Maester Luwin and so he took his advice seriously.

There probably is an element of destiny and freewill in both Dany and Bran's stories (I would add Jon to). It's a fine balance but I think all three characters are strong-willed enough that in the end they'll make choices based on what they believe is right (I hope).

[BearQueen87]

It goes back to the discussion of freewill vs. destiny - how much of the story is preordained and how much is happening at the choices of our protagonist.

Do you remember in the Dany re-read when we discussed how Dany has accomplished many of the requisites for the AAR myth without even knowing it, how much was that on her and how much was it meant to happen. I would hate for the series to be about per-determined roads, I like the idea that our protagonist can and should make choices that will lead them in the direction of their choice. Like, I think that Dany's time in Slaver's Bay was not destines, we don't hear any stories about a prophesied savior to the slaves, what she did was of her own choice. However, something that most likely was destined (the return of the dragons) allowed her to make the choices she made, without the dragons she could have never freed the slaves.

It's interesting but very confusing to me.

Probably not, the dragon dreams basically told her that she could walk into the fire and would be okay. Otherwise, I don't think Dany is crazy enough to walk into a pyre just because. She says it herself when she sees the comet, she says something like "it was meant to be this way"/ So Dany does understand that part of her future is sort of destine.

I think so, Jojen came to bran because of the 3EC, sort of an insurance to push Bran North. He was definitely influenced heavily to go North (Bran) but he did have a lot of respect for Maester Luwin and so he took his advice seriously.

There probably is an element of destiny and freewill in both Dany and Bran's stories (I would add Jon to). It's a fine balance but I think all three characters are strong-willed enough that in the end they'll make choices based on what they believe is right (I hope).

I do think that is where ASOIAF comes down to in the end---a mix of free will and destiny. I also believe that GRRM will never sit one of his characters down and have them explain this to us. Sam's not going to get a lesson in freewill vs destiny, for example, at Oldtown. The series has set up a lot of interesting what ifs that make us question how much influence these characters have over their own lives.

And I think it extends to all the characters, though most readily seen in Bran and Dany and Jon. But I think you can look at each character and wonder if they had made different choices/different choices were made for them and see this fate/freewill debate play out.

I'll use my bear as an example; there are a lot of specific events that had to go exactly to plan to get Jorah to Dany in AGOT. First he has to win that tourney, an event that is seems almost magical because Jorah is not a tourney knight. Then his wife Lyennse has to be a shrew and Jorah has to make the decision to try and sell poachers (a choice he willingly made but one does wonder how Tyroshi pirates came to be on Bear Island, a remote, off the beaten path, little island on the opposite side of the more populated areas of Westeros). Next his wife has to leave Jorah (a choice she made willingly, like Jorah's decision to sell poachers, but what threw her in the path of the man she ended up living with? How did they met? Did they just run into each other?) Then Varys has to have been keeping a careful eye on Jorah Mormont and realized how useful he could be with this very young Targaryen princess.

But what if one thing that happened differently? What if Jorah hadn't won that tourney; and NOT winning would be far more likely given that Jorah was never a tourney knight and never won anything afterwards. I believe he even says, "the magic was gone." What if Lyneese hadn't left Jorah for another man? Or if Jorah hadn't sold those poachers? It's such a specific lining up of events that I do sit back and wonder if fate/magic/destiny/whatever you want to call it had a bigger hand in Jorah/Dany.

Let's say that one of those thing never happened; Jorah never won the tourney, he never married Lyneese, he lived on Bear Island for the rest of his life until Robb call the banners and then he goes off to War with the young King in the North, instead of Maege. Ok, so what happens to Dany? Well, she never has a friend, but more importantly, I think she dies in Vaes Dothrak. If Jorah isn't there to stop the wine seller and his poison wine (something that I think would still happen since Varys has his little birds everywhere and Varys would have found a way to spy on the Khaleesi) then Dany dies. Okay, but what if Dany lives past Vaes Dothrak, let's say, what next? The events might play out as normal but when we get to Qarth, without Jorah learning about Qartheen wedding customs, would Dany have married Xaro? It's only after Jorah learns about Qartheen asking for one present that Dany nixes all fleeting ideas about marrying Xaro. Ok, so let's say she manages to make it past Qarth with all three dragons and having not married Xaro. She meets Whitebeard who wants to take her to Pentos. What doesn't happen? Slaver's Bay. Jorah is the one who tells her to go to SB, and then of her own free will,she starts a revolution. But if Jorah wasn't there, Dany wouldn't have gone to SB, but straight back to Pentos where...she'd be married to fAegon?

Okay, I just talked your ear off a lot. But I find this destiny/free will stuff to be fascinating in this series and like I said I think we can extend it to every character. For example, as my last thought: what if Bran hadn't gone climbing that day in Bran II? It's a choice he comes to on a whim because he's feeling sad. The scales very easily could have tipped another way if Bran had just stayed in the godswood that day.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So this theme has been brought up in the Bran Re-Read lately and I thought it might make an interesting conversation piece over here as well. As MOIAF and QA have pointed out in their series, Bran and Dany are two of the characters who interact with magic most in this series. We're pondering over in Bran if this is all fate or free will. How many of Bran's choices are his own making and how many times has the 3EC/BR guided him through magic to making certain decisions, and perhaps most importantly, is magic a divine force that is pushing Brandon Stark in a certain direction.

With this last question, I think we can extend it back to Dany as well. Is magic guiding her footsteps and how many of her choices are her own? Is magic pushing Daenerys Targaryen in a certain direction or is Dany walking her own path free of the magic that runs throughout ASOIAF/Planetos.

I think it's a mixture of both, just as Parwan said in relation to the Red Priests, that Dany wont walk her own path and at the same time won't be compelled by the Red lot.

I believe it's similar to some of the views of some religions in our world where the belief is that the deity guides you but at the same time the decision to walk that guided path is yours.

It's similar in ASOIAF where magical forces reach out to people but the human still makes many of the critical decisions.

I think it's possible Egg also was reached out by these forces but his decisions through free will affected the end product.

[Hrafntýr]

This is a change of subject, but something I wanted to note before we leave Bran and Dany is their connection with fertility. In Dany's narrative the point becomes explicit, in that she believes Mirri Maz Duur to have predicted/caused her to be infertile. And yet we several times see her thinking on the planting of trees, images of children playing safely/happily. Fire can be linked to destruction but is also a symbol of vibrancy, movement, change, and blood is at once the blood of war and death but also menstruation (itself an ambivalent symbol: the possibility of pregnancy, but also the absence of pregnancy) and parturition.

Bran's connection to fertility is a little less explicit. A little digression...The great Indo-Europeanist Georges Dumézil theorized that Indo-European societies imagined a social order comprised of three complementary functions: one concerned with sovereignty and the sacred and magic, one with military/warrior strength, and one with fecundity and production and abundance. These were mapped onto the human body, with the head representing the kingly-priestly function, the arms the warrior function, and the loins and legs the productive/fertile function. In Indo-European literature and myth, when a character is somehow marked, usually through injury or maiming, on one of these body parts, it is a way of marking that figure's relationship to that social function. [The figure of the sacred king might be marked in all three parts, because the king embodies the totality of all social functions in his person.]

Accordingly, when a figure is marked, like Bran, with the lower part of his or her body, it is marking his or her connection to this third function of fecundity and abundance. We do see Ned sadly thinking that Bran "will never lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms," which seems like a parallel to Dany's view of her own fecundity. But I do trust Dumézil's analysis (which I think has bearing on other characters in the series as well!), and can't help but to think that both Bran and Dany have something to do with revitalization and fecundity.

[BearQueen87]

1. This is a change of subject, but something I wanted to note before we leave Bran and Dany is their connection with fertility. In Dany's narrative the point becomes explicit, in that she believes Mirri Maz Duur to have predicted/caused her to be infertile. And yet we several times see her thinking on the planting of trees, images of children playing safely/happily. Fire can be linked to destruction but is also a symbol of vibrancy, movement, change, and blood is at once the blood of war and death but also menstruation (itself an ambivalent symbol: the possibility of pregnancy, but also the absence of pregnancy) and parturition.

2. Bran's connection to fertility is a little less explicit. A little digression...The great Indo-Europeanist Georges Dumézil theorized that Indo-European societies imagined a social order comprised of three complementary functions: one concerned with sovereignty and the sacred and magic, one with military/warrior strength, and one with fecundity and production and abundance. These were mapped onto the human body, with the head representing the kingly-priestly function, the arms the warrior function, and the loins and legs the productive/fertile function. In Indo-European literature and myth, when a character is somehow marked, usually through injury or maiming, on one of these body parts, it is a way of marking that figure's relationship to that social function. [The figure of the sacred king might be marked in all three parts, because the king embodies the totality of all social functions in his person.]

Wonderful! I don't have much in response but maybe a point or two

1. Yes yes yes yes! We harped on this *so much* over at the original Dany re-read project. People tend to read the fire and blood symbols as only negative--death, war, destruction. It villainizes both Dany and the Targs, as if their house words and those two ideas can only be read in light of "big bad evil." But I absolutely agree--fire and blood are also life. Dany represents both. In your above post you mention her relationship with fertility and fecundity and I think that is spot on. Dany creates and births this new world. GRRM does not make childbirth out to be anything less than what it is--a painful bloody mess but something that is 1) beautiful and 2) necessary for the preservation of life on Planetos. That's Dany. The birthing itself might be bloody and messy (see: Slaver's Bay) but what results after a long "birthing" process is something better.

2. Ah, sacred king! Hello Bran! Just going to pick this up from the Frazer side of things but if we read Bran as a sacred king, a John Barleycorn (and brief sidenote but of course Bran isn't the only character who gets Barleycorn'd...Jon and Dany do as well) then we do have to ponder what is next for young Bran Stark. I think Bran might be a sort of reverse of Barleycorn. He did not thrive in summer, he was crippled during the last bit of it and calling him a "summer child" has the connotation of being naive and unwise. His own death and rebirth (the coma dream) does not end with him entering a glorious spring and ruling over a long summer. It ends with him preparing to lead/rule/live through winter. Turns out, he thrives in winter and the fall. His powers as a warg are stronger, his connection to magic and what is coming next are stronger. He gains wisdom and understanding as winter comes. Given that the Starks are the Kings of Winter and I believe that you don't call yourself the Kings of Winter if you fear winter, but rather if you own its power, Bran is more like a Winter specific Barleycorn, or maybe the piece of Barleycorn that is born at the Winter Solstice. I do also wonder about the element of sacrifice that goes with Barleycorn and how that will play out with Bran and BR--who are a very amusing (to me) version of Odin and Fenrir. Instead of "Fenrir" killing "Odin" at Ragnorak because "big bad wolf" and prophecy it could be that Bloodraven offers up his own life so that Bran can fully take his place on his Yggdrasil-esque throne. Bloodraven, a dying "king," offers up his own life so that Bran can become the new, younger, more powerful, "king."

ETA: Sorry if that was all a bit all over the place....lol. I was thinking a lot out loud. :)

[Hrafntýr]

BearQueen: So, my interpretation differs from yours, in that I'm speculatively trusting in a Dumézilian analysis (assuming that ASoIaF is "Indo-European literature"), and I read Bran as having been marked twice: once in the legs via his fall, and once in his head, the invisible "wound" of his third eye. This would associate him with the priestly/sacred function and with the fecundity function (thus, a magical/sacred renewal), but not necessarily a kingly function, which would involve "marks" on all three areas of the body. [Jon, incidentally, has been marked in all three, as has Theon, curiously enough, if we count his broken teeth.]

Obviously one has to buy that Dumézil's analysis works for our narrative, enough so as to have predictive power, but thus far it's been surprisingly accurate (if you track the maimings in the series). And of course Bran could yet suffer a wound/mark to his arms/torso, which would lend him the full quota that indicates a sacred king.

[Seams]

So many interesting ideas in this discussion: the nature of magic, fate vs. free will, the forces that mark or shape a person's destiny (sovereign, warrior, sower of seeds). I find myself returning to the extremely interesting information MoIaF and Queen Alysanne shared at the beginning of their second essay, about GRRM's treatment of magic in the books:

Magic in the World of Ice and Fire is not structured, its not controlled by a universal set of rules, magic it seems, is of an organic nature. Martin once said of the events of Danys pyre that: The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. ...

As with most fantasies Martin doesnt shy away from prophesies of great heroes that will save the world one day. Two of the most prominent prophecies are those of Azor Ahai and The Last Hero. In this section of the essay well be exploring the similarities both Dany and Bran share with these mythical heroes....

As a speculation we wager that the magic of ASOIF has a common root from which different factions draw their magic. There are many similarities that cant be attributed to mere coincidence. Like the blue leaf tree and the weirwood there must be a common core from where these both sprang. ...

It seems to me that both prophecy/fate and free will can operate within this GRRM version of magic. When Maester Aemon asks Sam to seek out confirmed news about the hatched, living dragons, we learn that he and others had tried to make sense of the prophecies and their attempts were all dis-proven until this point. Only now does it become clear (to him) that the "Prince" is really a "Princess." It remains to be seen whether this new interpretation is correct. And I think it's fair to say that it will be correct only if Dany and the characters who have the potential to fulfill the prophecies take the right steps (or learn the right lessons) that allow them to grow into the roles open to them.

Something or someone is reaching out to Daenerys. Something or someone is reaching out to Bran. This sets the two characters apart from others who are involved in magic. They are both, in some sense, "chosen." They do not ask for what happens to them; it just happens....

Now, the fact that you are pushed in a certain direction does not mean that your free will has been taken from you. I don't think that the questions you ask have definitive answers. I believe things are uncertain, appropriately uncertain given the nature of magic in Martin's world. The Mother of The Others once called Daenerys Targaryen "a magic savant." That's a good phrase. Such people often have a certain obsessive quality about them, but they are not just robots.

Dany and Bran are both "naturals." People like Jon and Arya also belong in this category. There are other people who learn magic in a more organized and intentional way. As MoIaF said, magic in-universe is not carefully structured; there is no overall set of always-dependable principles....

I think Tyrion may also belong in this category of a "natural" with magic, although he would probably be surprised to hear it. So far, his gifts don't seem supernatural in the same way that hatching a dragon or warging seems to be, but there is this sixth sense and luck that come from his native intelligence, reading and sensitivity - the alchemists' wildfire falls into his hands at just the right moment; he charms and befriends people who should not be his natural allies (Jon Snow and Bronn, fAegon/Young Griff, maybe Shae).

Tyrion also escapes death when his champion wins (Bronn), when his squire finds him during the battle at Kings Landing, after his champion loses (Oberyn) and when the lions are not unleashed in the fighting pit. Is this all luck? Fate? Does it start to become another form of magic when it happens so often?

Things to look out for: Tyrion borrowed rare books from the Winterfell library just before the library burned down - I have the feeling those books will come back into the story at some point. And what about the mushrooms in his shoe? These may be lucky coincidences, yet again, or they may underscore that Tyrion's intelligence is a kind of magic.

I can't yet put my finger on exactly why I think Tyrion belongs in the group of "native" magic practitioners, but I think it may have to do with the rivalry between the alchemists and the maesters. I hope we will see more exploration of this rivalry when GRRM takes us back to the Citadel in the last books. Tyrion may be the man who figures out how to balance the magic and science of these two groups - he doesn't hatch dragons, but he reads books about dragons and knows more about them than almost any other character.

Another link among Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya and Brann is their trust in, devotion to, and redefinition of brotherhood. I won't list all of the brother relationships but I will say that I think Rickon, when he reappears, will also be part of the exploration of alchemy and magic motif. I'm basing this largely on the green fire of Shaggy Dog's eyes, but also on Rickon's intuition that he needed to be in the crypt to meet his father before news of Ned's death had arrived at Winterfell and on Shaggy Dog's attack on Maester Luwin.

[SeanF]

Daenerys and Cersei, Parallel Lives

Uneasy Lies the Head

This is the first in a series of essays that explores parallels between Daenerys and Cersei. This one examines their abilities as rulers, of Meereen, and Westeros respectively . Prior to the publication of A Feast For Crows, Martin indicated that he wanted Daenerys and Cerseis stories as rulers to be read in parallel, in order to show how women could exercise power within the universe he created. Neither Dany, nor Cersei, can be regarded as particularly successful, as rulers. However, Danys failure was partial, whereas Cerseis
failure is (apparently) complete, leaving her humiliated and facing possible execution.

Cersei successfully arranged the murder of King Robert. She then carried out a successful coup, with Littlefinger, overthrowing Ned Stark, and became Regent for Joffrey. In reality, true power was vested in her father, as the head of House Lannister, and commander of its forces, and in Tyrion, who served as Hand of the King on his fathers behalf. After the Battle of the Blackwater, Tywin instructed Cersei that she was to remarry. Although he had left Cersei in charge of Lannister interests in Kings Landing for many years, a succession of blunders
after her coup convinced Tywin that she had to be relieved of her position. The murders of Joffrey and Tywin brought her back to power, unexpectedly, and she looked forward to a long period acting as Regent on behalf of Tommen. Her rise to power may have been unexpected, but her route to power was conventional. A Queen Regent, ruling in the name of her underage son, is not an unusual arrangement in Westeros.

Danys route to power was quite different. She came to power by right of conquest. She took Meereen by storm, and after debating with her advisers, she decided she owed an obligation to her followers, and to Meereens
inhabitants, to stay and rule the city and its hinterland, rather than stripping it bare and marching for Westeros. There was nothing conventionally legal about her rise to power. She relies on a personal bond with her followers from Drogos Khalasar, and the freed slaves, in order to remain in power. Hers is a charismatic, rather than bureaucractic, form of leadership. Among her ancestors are both men and women who were conquerors (Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys) ; and one woman who was both a conqueror, and like Dany the Mother of her people, Nymeria, who led her people from one danger to another, until they finally settled in Dorne.

Conflict

Almost from the start, both Dany and Cersei faced challenges to their rule. In Westeros, Stannis remained a threat, even after his defeat on the Blackwater, building up strength in the North. Some months after she came to power, the Ironborn launched an invasion of the Reach. Cersei, however, was not greatly concerned about these threats. She had a paranoid fear of her daughter-in-law, Maergery Tyrell, as a result of a childhood prophecy. Much of her time as Regent was spent plotting to frame Maergery for adultery, so that she would be executed or disgraced. Indeed, Cersei sees conflict very much in personal
terms. She decided to send Ser Osmund Kettleblack to the Wall to assassinate Jon Snow, the Lord Commander, for fear that he was plotting against her with Stannis. The threat from the Ironborn by contrast, was almost irrelevant to her, as she expected Maergerys brother Willas to fight them off, and showed no interest in trying to assist him. Another threat, to which was oblivious until too late, came from the rise of the Sparrows, fanatical followers of the Faith, who rose against the nobility of Westeros. Stupidly, she believed she could control them, and was even ready to allow the High Sparrow to rearm his followers, 250 years after Jaeherys disarmed them, in return for waiving a debt to the Faith. This turned out so well for her that the High Sparrow was able to arrest both her and Margaery, and to insist that both be put on trial. The nobility at Kings Landing dared not intervene.

Danys conflicts were less aimed at her personally, more at the regime she had created. She faced both an internal terrorist threat (the Sons of the Harpy) and an external foe, the Slaver coalition. Although both factions hated her, their aims were not entirely the same. The Sons wanted to force her to make concessions to the Great Masters, restoring them to power, and enabling them to lord it over their former slaves, even if slavery itself remained illegal. They also wished to maintain Meereens independence. The Coalition, on the other hand, contained members who wished to sack Meereen, to re-enslave the freed population, as well as some who wanted a negotiated settlement. Looming overall is the regional superpower, Volantis, which recognises Danys anti-slavery crusade as an existential threat, which must be obliterated.

Dany responded as vigorously as she could to the external threat. Her forces were heavily outnumbered, but still fought a strong defensive campaign against the armies that marched on Meereen. Sensibly, she decided it was best to keep her best infantry, the Unsullied, inside the walls of Meereen, rather than attempting to fight against superior forces outside the city, running the risk that it would rise against her. Her conflict ended with an apparent peace, with the Slaver Coalition, and a marriage to one of the Great Masters, Hizdahr Zo Loraq, that ended the insurgency. However, she found the peace shameful, and it is clear from Tyrions and Quentyns chapters, that many of the Slavers had no intention of honouring its terms. Dany was working to suborn the mercenaries serving the Slavers, when Drogon returned to Danzhaks Pit. Battle is about to be joined outside Meereen.

Hard and Soft Power

In Martins world, a successful government has to mix repression with appeasement, in order to stay in power. Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters managed this successfully. Westeros (apart from Dorne) was conquered, but the three of them adopted the local religion, and made strenuous efforts to win over their new subjects. Their immediate successors, Aenys and Maegor, got the balance wrong, but most Targaryen monarchs got it right. Cersei got the balance disastrously wrong; Dany got it partially wrong.

Cersei has very little conception of the importance of soft power. Prior to the Battle of Blackwater, she threatened to break the hands of the local smiths, if they failed to meet their quotas of weapons and armour. In conversation with her father, after the Blackwater, she could not understand why it was necessary to keep the Tyrells onside. She alienated the Tyrells as Regent, refusing to appoint Mace, or any of his vassals to the Small Council, despite her uncles advice to that effect. When the Iron Bank of Braavos demanded payment of its debts, she dismissed its envoy with contempt, when she should have offered to renegotiate. No slight went ignored. When Bronn named his son Tyrion, she chose to treat this as disloyalty, and urged Ser Balman Byrch to fight him. She learned the wrong lessons from her father, who was indeed a cruel and ruthless man, exterminating the Reynes and Tarbecks, and slaughtering the peasants of the Riverlands, but who also knew how to win over opponents. Tywin worked hard to keep the Tyrells happy, consulting them and offering them lands and titles, and was prepared to offer generous terms to those River Lords who bent the knee. Cersei was right to distrust the Tyrells, but had never learned that You keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Predictably, her behaviour ended in disaster. The Iron Bank are now funding Stannis, the Tyrells and Sparrows control Kings Landing, and she is a prisoner.

Dany by contrast went to considerable lengths to conciliate her new subjects. She appointed members of the Meereenese ruling class as her councillors. She married Hizdahr, adopted the tokar for formal occasions, and reopened the fighting pits, an institution she hated, but which was loved by almost all of Meereens population, whether masters or freedmen. Unfortunately, such measures of conciliation sat uneasily with both the Sack of Meereen by her army, the widespread use of torture in response to the Sons insurrection, and her decision to crucify 163 Great Masters in retaliation for the crucifixion of children. She was left in the position of having to depend on the very people she had alienated, in order to govern Meereen. This uneasy mix of repression and conciliation meant that she could neither intimidate the native Meereenese, nor win them over. She was aware that she needed to balance hard and soft power (and disinclined by her nature from massacring the native population) but failed to get the balance right. But, her support from the freedmen ensured that her government endured. Even some of the native Meereenese (the Shavepates) were willing to accept her rule, if only for reasons of opportunism.

Cruelty

Cersei and Dany both have a decidedly cruel streak. Both of them used torture as a matter of routine. Both of them were willing to employ evil people as intelligence chiefs and torturers; Qyburn in Cerseis case, Skahaz in Danys case. Qyburn carried out medical experiments on his victims, while Skahaz appeared to enjoy torturing people. His advice to Dany was inevitably cruel, such as ripping out the tongue of Hazzeas father, or murdering child hostages. Dany worried about whether the Shavepate was loyal, but never demonstrated any moral qualms about employing such a man. Although she never met Tywin Lannister, she took after him in her willingness to employ the beasts in the woods that he thinks all nobles need to serve them. She ordered the crucifixion of 163 Great Masters of Meereen, in retaliation for the earlier crucifixion of slave children. Even in this world, crucifixion is a harsh punishment, and she appears to have made no attempt to investigate whether those so punished were actually guilty of the earlier crime.

Nonetheless, its clear that there are limits to what Dany is prepared to do, whereas those limits dont exist for Cersei. Dany refused to murder child hostages; Cersei ordered the murder of Roberts bastards. Dany was prepared to forgive Ser Jorah Mormont, despite his grave breach of trust, and only sent him into exile when he proved truculent and insolent. Cersei sent her maid, Senelle, to a hideous death, merely on suspicion that she was informing on her to the Tyrells. She then betrayed her friend, Falyse Stokeworth, to the same death, in order to keep secret her failed plot against Bronn. Later, we will learn that Falyse died screaming in the Black Cells. Dany is prepared to countenance the assassination of her enemies, such as Brown Ben Plumm, but that could fairly be seen as an act of war. Cersei is willing to assassinate others, such as the High Septon, simply in order to cover up her own crimes.

Empathy and Compassion

The biggest distinction between the two is that, for all her faults, Dany does display empathy and compassion, whereas Cersei displays none. When Cersei saw ragged Sparrows outside the Great Sept, she thought about how her father would have cut them down. When told of Septas being sexually abused, she immediately thought that half of them must be praying for a good raping. When the Tyrells cut off the food supply to Kings Landing, it never crossed her mind that the Smallfolk of Kings Landing needed to be fed, despite the fact that the population were rioting for bread. The Court at Kings Landing continued to stuff themselves, even as everyone else went hungry. I cannot recall Cersei performing a single selfless act, during the course of the books. She is at the centre of her own universe, albeit, she does care for her children.

The contrast with Dany could not be greater. She held Doreah as she lay dying in the desert; took Missandei into her bed to comfort her, after her brother was murdered. She tried to feed and treat the refugees from Astapor, when they reached the gates of Meereen. Whether or not one agrees with her actions in Slavers Bay, there is very little doubt in my mind that she was truly horrified by the way in which the slaves were treated, and acted accordingly. She is almost unfailingly consider considerate towards her servants and followers.

In the end, Cersei was deserted by everybody. Even her Small Council, hand-picked by her for their sycophancy, failed to lift a finger when the High Sparrow arrested her. She inspired absolutely no loyalty in any section of the population. Danys empathy and compassion kept her supporters loyal, even in the worst of times, and will ensure that in her absence from Meereen, her followers will still keep her government functioning.

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys and Cersei, Parallel Lives

Uneasy Lies the Head

Well done Sean! I am really looking forward to this portion of the re-read; Dany and Cersei are two very interesting and juicy characters to compare.

However, Dany’s failure was partial, whereas Cersei’s failure is (apparently) complete, leaving her humiliated and facing possible execution.

True, and I'm sure that you'll touch on this below, but Dany and Cersei's ruling methods play into this. Dany's rule was still about other people, the citizenry of Meereen, whereas Cerseri's rule was all about Cersei. Dany's partial failure as you call it is in part because she did not go far enough, but also because the factions working against her were well funded, secretive, and deceptive. Cersei is getting detailed reports of her enemies--like the Ironborn. She just doesn't care.

Stupidly, she believed she could control them, and was even ready to allow the High Sparrow to rearm his followers, 250 years after Jaeherys disarmed them, in return for waiving a debt to the Faith.

Cersei stupidly believing she could control people and situations pretty much sums up her entire arc in AFFC. She thinks, and tries, to control every player on the board from Jaime to Tommen to Margaery. A ruler having control over their subjects isn't exactly unheard of but Cersei makes little to no effort to work with anyone. Even superb rulers need a good Hand and council. Cersei chooses those who are inept or brown nosers so that none of them will be able to wrestle away control from her.

Dany by contrast does try to work with the people she has placed around her, even though she does not trust them. She may not do a perfect job working with these people, but again, that is because those she is trying to work with are refusing to work with her, instead preferring violence and terrorism.

Cersei has very little conception of the importance of soft power

I think Cersei would associate soft power as "womanly" and thus balks at it, failing to understand the adage that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Margarey uses soft power and she is beloved and cherished. Cersei doesn't want to be seen as a "woman" when it comes to being in power--she wants to be a female version of Tywin. I find this aspect of Cersei to be deeply ironic given that the number one tool Cersei uses to bring others under her control is sex and the desire for her because she is a woman.

She was aware that she needed to balance hard and soft power (and disinclined by her nature from massacring the native population) but failed to get the balance right. But, her support from the freedmen ensured that her government endured. Even some of the native Meereenese (the Shavepates) were willing to accept her rule, if only for reasons of opportunism.

Dany needed her dragons. The Shavepate mentions this to Barristan, but as soon as the various factions realized that she was keeping her dragons under lock and key, literally in this case, they stopped fearing and began to test the waters of how to overturn her rule.

Cersei and Dany both have a decidedly cruel streak. Both of them used torture as a matter of routine. Both of them were willing to employ evil people as intelligence chiefs and torturers; Qyburn in Cersei’s case, Skahaz in Dany’s case.

I think there are a few differences between the two situations, though I am not going to try and justify either one of them. With Dany, she does eventually make the Shavepate stop because she realizes that the information coming from those being abused is either given under duress and thus probably false or that it's just simply not working at all. Cersei, on the other hand, doesn't want to hear anything about what is going on with Qyburn in his laboratory. Once Qyburn has them, Cersei washes her hands of the whole ordeal unless it is absolutely imperative that she hear something. The other difference is that Cersei isn't giving Qyburn public enemies who are trying to over throw her rule; she's giving Qyburn people who she feels have wronged her personally, people who irritate her, people that, in her deep paranoia, she feels are out to get her.

We actually don't know who the Shavepate was torturing 95% of the time. The one instance that is highlighted for us in the text is the Wineseller's Daughter. I think that is deliberate on the part of GRRM, especially with his original plan to keep AFFC/ADWD together in publication, but outside of the Winseller's Daughter we don't know who the Shavepate is working on. More children? Adult males? Former slave masters? It may not matter in the ethical sense (torture is torture) but I do find it curious that GRRM never reveals who else is being abused.

Dany was prepared to forgive Ser Jorah Mormont, despite his grave breach of trust, and only sent him into exile when he proved truculent and insolent. Cersei sent her maid, Senelle, to a hideous death, merely on suspicion that she was informing on her to the Tyrells.

Cersei also sends Jaime, arguably her closest ally, away simply because Jaime keeps trying to reason with her and help her. She sees Jaime as interfering and thus sends him on, possibly, a death mission simply because she doesn't like what he has to say. Dany may not like what Raznak or the Shavepate are saying, but she does hear them out at least. Think about Xaro and the ships--Dany listens to everyone before she makes her decision based on what everyone has to say. Cersei would only pretend to listen but made her mind early on and only asks "for show."

I cannot recall Cersei performing a single selfless act, during the course of the books. She is at the centre of her own universe, albeit, she does care for her children.

Cersei does care for her children, but when it comes to power, Cersei places herself above them every single time. Her treatment of Tommen in AFFC is pretty terrible. She thinks at one point that this is her time and Tommen can wait his turn to rule, just like she had to. That's not only terrible from a motherly stand point (Cersei, herself, having the emotional maturity of a 5 year old) but also terrible from a ruling stand point. Tommen needs to learn, but Cersei wants to keep him as distanced as possible, playing with kittens and only appearing to sign papers. I don't doubt that Cersei loves her children, but I think she loves herself more.

[SeanF]

Dany needed her dragons. The Shavepate mentions this to Barristan, but as soon as the various factions realized that she was keeping her dragons under lock and key, literally in this case, they stopped fearing and began to test the waters of how to overturn her rule.

I think there are a few differences between the two situations, though I am not going to try and justify either one of them. With Dany, she does eventually make the Shavepate stop because she realizes that the information coming from those being abused is either given under duress and thus probably false or that it's just simply not working at all. Cersei, on the other hand, doesn't want to hear anything about what is going on with Qyburn in his laboratory. Once Qyburn has them, Cersei washes her hands of the whole ordeal unless it is absolutely imperative that she hear something. The other difference is that Cersei isn't giving Qyburn public enemies who are trying to over throw her rule; she's giving Qyburn people who she feels have wronged her personally, people who irritate her, people that, in her deep paranoia, she feels are out to get her.

We actually don't know who the Shavepate was torturing 95% of the time. The one instance that is highlighted for us in the text is the Wineseller's Daughter. I think that is deliberate on the part of GRRM, especially with his original plan to keep AFFC/ADWD together in publication, but outside of the Winseller's Daughter we don't know who the Shavepate is working on. More children? Adult males? Former slave masters? It may not matter in the ethical sense (torture is torture) but I do find it curious that GRRM never reveals who else is being abused.

We don't know for certain who the Shavepate is torturing, but we can make some shrewd guesses (unfortunately, on the general forum, this often becomes an excuse to portray Dany as Aerys III).

1. The wineseller's daughters. They're tortured in front of their father. We don't know if they're guilty. Girls/young women are not typical members of terrorist movements, but they can be valuable as terrorists precisely for that reason. We don't know how they were tortured, what the outcome of the torture was, or whether they were guilty or innocent. However, the Shavepate seems to enjoy his work, and, in all likelihood, so do the people he employs. Given what we know about medieval torture techniques, one's imagination can easily run riot.

2. Hizdahr comments to Dany that Skahaz is renowned for his work as a torturer, throughout Meereen. It would be interesting to know how he treated his slaves, and what his occupation was, prior to Dany's conquest of the city. Hizdahr says that after three days of being tortured by Skahaz, he'd confess to having murdered Dany's father. When Hizdahr is overthrown, Skahaz can't wait to get to work on him, but Barristan prevents this.

3. Dany comments that Skahaz has taken Sons of the Harpy for "sharp questioning". However, they provide "too many" names when questioned, names that she considers to be worthless. I think one can conclude from that that both terrorists, and innocent people, have been subjected to torture.

[MoIaF]

SeanF

Great job! I'm very excited for this parallel discussion.

Very fee woman in ASOIAF wield power and non as much as Dany and Cersei.

Their route to power os very contrastic, while Cersei's route is more common for woman in her time, Dany's is quite uncommon for almost any time. I'll have to agree with BearQueen87 here, that although Cersei loves her children she loves herself even more. Her children in a way are a tool to her in order to gain power, she rules using their birthright but it's not about them, it's about her. Her want, her needs.

On the other hand Dany also rules in a manner because of her "children". It is through their following that she has gained the power to conquer the cities of Slaver's bay, however, unlike Cersei Dany rules for her peopl, her children. Her road to leadership is about protecting the people she feels responsible to. Even after AGOT when she was still planning on going to Westeros, she felt responsible for her small khalasar, she took the responsibility of leading serious. her ruling is almost as much about her as it is them.

This of course also goes to Cersei's incredible almost pathological selfishness contrasted with Dany almost pathological need to help others. Dany's cruel behavior is almost entirely about protecting or avenging those who have been hurt and trampled by others, while Cersei's is about punishing a slight or perceived slight. And I think that's an important contrast. It doesn't excuse it but it puts it into perspective.

[BearQueen87]

SeanF

Great job! I'm very excited for this parallel discussion.

Very fee woman in ASOIAF wield power and non as much as Dany and Cersei.

Their route to power os very contrastic, while Cersei's route is more common for woman in her time, Dany's is quite uncommon for almost any time.

That's a very good point. Cersei likes to see herself as mold breaking--she's unique and special and her rise to power and her rule will likewise be unique and special. But in reality she's no different than any other married high born lady who came to power because her husband died. Her son was too young so Cersei rules until he comes of age--it's like Cat who was told to help Robb until he was ready. Dany's husband likewise died but prior to that Drogo was already listening to Dany against his own men and she herself was giving commands.

[MoIaF]

That's a very good point. Cersei likes to see herself as mold breaking--she's unique and special and her rise to power and her rule will likewise be unique and special. But in reality she's no different than any other married high born lady who came to power because her husband died. Her son was too young so Cersei rules until he comes of age--it's like Cat who was told to help Robb until he was ready. Dany's husband likewise died but prior to that Drogo was already listening to Dany against his own men and she herself was giving commands.

Exactly.

They are the perfect contrast to one another when it comes to their queenly arcs. It's the different between a trust-fund baby and a self-made woman. Dany has sacrificed a great deal to get to where she is at, Cersei not so much.

[SeanF]

Exactly.

They are the perfect contrast to one another when it comes to their queenly arcs. It's the different between a trust-fund baby and a self-made woman. Dany has sacrificed a great deal to get to where she is at, Cersei not so much.

You don't agree with those posters who see Dany as another Paris Hilton? :lol:

[SeanF]

That's a very good point. Cersei likes to see herself as mold breaking--she's unique and special and her rise to power and her rule will likewise be unique and special. But in reality she's no different than any other married high born lady who came to power because her husband died. Her son was too young so Cersei rules until he comes of age--it's like Cat who was told to help Robb until he was ready. Dany's husband likewise died but prior to that Drogo was already listening to Dany against his own men and she herself was giving commands.

Cersei often complains about how she was shut out from power because she was a woman. But, her father left her in charge of all the Lannister interests in Kings Landing for 15 years. Tyrek and Lancel were told to take their orders from her, rather than from Tywin or Ser Kevan. She was only relieved of her position, after the various blunders that were made after the death of Robert.

[MoIaF]

You don't agree with those posters who see Dany as another Paris Hilton? :lol:

Nah! They know nothing.

Dany is way cooler than that. :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

You don't agree with those posters who see Dany as another Paris Hilton? :lol:

Ha! No

Cersei often complains about how she was shut out from power because she was a woman. But, her father left her in charge of all the Lannister interests in Kings Landing for 15 years. Tyrek and Lancel were told to take their orders from her, rather than from Tywin or Ser Kevan. She was only relieved of her position, after the various blunders that were made after the death of Robert.

Yes exactly. Cersei constantly sees herself as a victim because of her sex. But the reality is that she is given power and then makes a mess of things because she's too self involved, too egotistical, too concerned with perceived slights and minor quibbles.

Nah! They know nothing.

Dany is way cooler than that. :cool4:

#TeamKhaleesi4Evah