The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

2. If the Dothraki do declare Dany to be TSTMTW then they will listen to her orders, no matter how untypical they are. She will order no rape and no unnecessary murder. However, I don't think she can order them not to take their plunder. They do need something for the fighting they are about to do and looting is an "acceptable" way to give them that while telling them that they can't rape or take women into slavery.

Truth is (imo) I don't think they will get little chance to pillage in Westeros. I think Westeros will be totally and utterly exhausted by the time Dany arrives and if she lands on Westeros with 3 dragons... well dragons have such a massive impact on Westerosi pysche that they will probably just give up. Imagine you are in a Westerosi army, maybe your army outnumbers Dany's army 5 to 1 and then you see the three dragons in the sky all you will think is "Field of Fire. Field of Fire. Field of Fire. Yeah screw this, I'm bending the knee." Westeros was far more equipped to deal with Aegon the Conqueror than Dany at present.

I do think Pentos WILL get plundered though. I think that is where she will send the Dothraki to congregate while she sort out SB.

[SeanF]

Daenerys and Cersei Parallel Lives Part I.II

Love and Sexuality

The fates of Dany, Jaime, and Cersei are curiously linked. She and Cersei could easily have been sisters-in-law, had Aerys agreed to Tywins proposal to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar. Dany might well in turn have been betrothed to a Lannister (such as Lancel or Tyrek) in order to strengthen the ties between the two families. Jaime, Dany, and Cersei would all have been part of the same family, and their lives, (and Westeros) would likely have been far happier as a result. Instead, Jaime killed Aerys, and Tywins servants murdered Elia and her children.

By refusing the betrothal, Aerys demonstrated the truth of Philip Larkins couplet "They fuck you up, your mum and dad, They may not mean to but they do."

Rhaegar

For someone who died, fifteen years prior to the beginning of the story, Rhaegar has had a remarkable degree of influence over so many of the protagonists. In Dany's case, he is the elder brother she never knew, but who she places on a pedestal. To her, he is the epitome of knighthood, chivalry, and virtue. Through Cersei's recollections in A Feast for Crows, we learn that she very largely agrees. At the age of six or seven, her father told her she was to marry
Rhaegar. She was thrilled, and was smitten with him when she met him for the first time, when he took part in a tourney at Lannisport. One of the most poignant parts of Cersei's story is when she recalls how, as a child, she drew a picture of Rhaegar and herself riding a dragon together. She was devastated when Aerys rejected the betrothal in insulting terms. Her Aunt promised her a better man than Rhaegar, but" father found no better man. Instead, he gave me Robert." Years later, she still wishes she could have been Rhaegars Queen and the mother of his children. "She had never forgiven Robert for killing him. " Later, she recalls that "the wrong man had returned from the Trident."

Cersei must have met Rhaegar frequently, when her father took her to Court. It is hard to know whether their marriage would have been a successful one. Rhaegar would surely have been far more considerate towards her than Robert was; but, she may have got bored with marriage to a man who was prone to depression. Would she have resumed her affair with Jaime? Nevertheless, Cersei clearly thinks their marriage would have worked. Politics has made Cersei and Dany antagonists towards each other, but it would be interesting to see how they would get on if they had the chance to meet and to talk about Rhaegar.

Incest

Of course, the other great love of Cersei's life is her twin brother, Jaime. They became lovers when they were fifteen, and she persuaded him to join the
Kingsguard, although they had been experimenting with each other sexually, long before that. They have had three children together, while pretending that they were Robert's, and clearly had very strong feelings for each other, until their relationship began to break up, just before Tyrion escaped and murdered their father. Cersei and Jaime are well aware that their relationship would be viewed with abhorrence by their contemporaries, but feel no shame over it all. Cersei tells Ned, when confronted with the allegation "The Targaryens wed brother and sister together for centuries. " Jaime himself told Cersei in the Great Sept that he was sick of lying, and that they should openly wed each other.

Dany's attitude parallels this. Although royal incest became less common in the last century of Targaryen rule, both her father and grandfather were married to their sisters. She herself was raised to believe that marriage to Viserys was her natural destiny. Unlike the relationship between Cersei and Jaime, though, her relationship with Viserys was abusive. In her first chapter in A Game of Thrones, we see Viserys undressing and groping her. Her lack of reaction suggests that this was something she was well-used to, and knew better than to object to. Later, we discover from Tyrion's conversation with Illyrio that Viserys tried to rape her on the night before her wedding. A life as Viserys's wife or concubine would surely have been a nightmare for her.

Marriage

Superficially, the marriages of Dany to Drogo, and Cersei to Robert, were similar. They were both wed to powerful warlords, in return for political favours. Both of them had no choice in the matter, although, whereas Dany was plainly terrified at the prospect of being married to Drogo, Cersei seems to have had no objection to the idea of marriage to Robert**. Indeed, she recalls looking forward to sex on their wedding night, only to be disgusted by his drunkenness, and his mistaking her for Lyanna Stark.

However, Tywin almost certainly thought he was doing well by his daughter (as well as advancing his family's interests) by marrying her to the King. Viserys had nothing but contempt for the man he was marrying his sister to. He refers to the Dothraki as savages; asked Illyrio whether the Dothraki mated with dogs and horses; and most notoriously told his sister, "I'd let his entire Khalasar fuck you, all forty thousand of them, and their horses, too, if thats what it took to get me an army. "

Cersei's and Dany's marriages turned out quite differently from the way theyd expected. Dany expected to be raped, and forced to have sex with the Khal's bloodriders. Instead, Drogo fell in love with her, and she with him. Drogo was,by any measure, a violent and brutal man, yet he seems to have developed much finer feelings for his wife. She in turn became besotted with him, and remembers him with love and affection. Some readers have argued that Drogo did in fact rape Dany, by virtue of the fact that she was thirteen when they married, and had no choice in her marriage. Yet, it seems clear to me that Dany does not view her marriage in this light.

Cersei's marriage, by contrast, was a disaster from day one. Robert beat and abused her, and was blatantly unfaithful. She abused him, cheated on him with her brother, and eventually plotted to kill him. Every memory that Cersei has of Robert is suffused with loathing, most notably this:-

T"hose had been the worst nights, lying helpless beneath him, as he tookhis pleasure, stinking of wine, and grunting like a boar. She was always sore afterwards, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he gave them. " Many readers interpret this passage to mean that Robert raped her, during their marriage, given that his mauling of her breasts recalls what Aerys did to Rhaella, her references to his "assaults", and that "what shamed him during the day gave him pleasure at night. " Robert was not an intelligent man, and quite possibly he took revenge on Cersei by raping her. The fact is that she loathed him, and he loathed her, and neither of them could get away from each other.

Dany's second marriage, to Hizdahr, is far less satisfactory. She neither loves nor trusts him, and marries him solely in order to bring peace to Meereen. He seems to view as no more than the means to advance his own political ambitions, and become King.

Other Lovers

Both Dany and Cersei take lovers outside of marriage. Here, the contrast between the two is clear. Dany lusts after Daario, but also has a great deal of
affection for him. She openly embraces him before her Court, and daydreams about living with him, and looking after him, in the house with the red door that symbolises home to her. He, in turn, has considerable affection for her. He is a treacherous, amoral, sellsword, who murdered his two comrades in order to bring his men over to her. Almost from the moment they met, he has made clear that he wants her in his bed. Yet, he does remain loyal to her, at a time when his fellow sellsword, Brown Ben Plumm, switches sides. Given how heavily Dany is outnumbered by the Slaver coalition, many of his men must have wished to change sides (he claims to have killed a Sergeant who suggested it) and he must have received tempting offers from his opponents.

Cersei, on the other hand, is acting on the advice she gave to Sansa "Tears are not a woman's only weapon. There's another one between your legs. Learn how to use it." She believes that she can bind Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Taena into her service, through the promise of sex. With the possible exception of Taena, she feels nothing for any of them. Her thoughts about them are filled with contempt. Lancel is a "pious fool," she inwardly sneers "how original", when Ser Osmund tells her that hes named his horse Midnight, and to her Taena is nothing more than a "Myrish whore." Oddly, though she does seem to develop considerable affection for Taena, coming to view her as her only friend, helped no doubt, by the endless flattery that Taena pours out on her.

Unsurprisingly, none of Cersei's lovers proves loyal to her in adversity. Lancel confesses his, and her, part in Roberts murder to the High Septon, and later joins the Warrior's Sons; the Kettleblacks sing like canaries to Qyburn and the High Septon, when faced with arrest and torture. Taena flees Kings Landing with her husband, as soon as Cersei is arrested. Even her brother, in the end, refuses to lift a finger to help her, when he receives her plea for help. Ironically, she really did love Jaime, but hes become convinced she was only using him, in the same way that she used her other lovers.

The one affair that seems out of character for Dany is with her handmaiden, Irri. Initially, Irri joined in when she discovered Dany masturbating. Its clear that Dany found the matter acutely embarrassing, as she told her "You are no bed slave", when Irri offered to do so again, the following day. She felt she would be exploiting Irri if she had sex with her again. Why then did she take Irri to bed, at least twice in Meereen, when she knew "the girl's kisses tasted of duty" and she really had no interest in sex with her? One can only suppose that Dany was so bored and depressed that she ignored her earlier moral objections.

It seems that Cersei, like Dany, is capable of love. Her feelings for Rhaegar, and (however disturbing these are to readers) Jaime, seem to demonstrate this. But, as with ruling, her selfishness and lack of empathy for her lovers, is her undoing.

(++ Note: How can this be reconciled with Cerseis feelings for Rhaegar. Presumably, if the marriage to Robert had been a success, she would have forgotten Rhaegar. The fact that the marriage was a disaster made Rhaegar all the more attractive, by comparison.

[BearQueen87]

Truth is (imo) I don't think they will get little chance to pillage in Westeros. I think Westeros will be totally and utterly exhausted by the time Dany arrives and if she lands on Westeros with 3 dragons... well dragons have such a massive impact on Westerosi pysche that they will probably just give up. Imagine you are in a Westerosi army, maybe your army outnumbers Dany's army 5 to 1 and then you see the three dragons in the sky all you will think is "Field of Fire. Field of Fire. Field of Fire. Yeah screw this, I'm bending the knee." Westeros was far more equipped to deal with Aegon the Conqueror than Dany at present.

I do think Pentos WILL get plundered though. I think that is where she will send the Dothraki to congregate while she sort out SB.

In Westeros? No not likely. Essos is another story, though. When Dany returns to Meereen with the Dothraki, I think she'll allow them to plunder so long as their is no rape and taking men/women/children to sell into slavery. Same goes for Volantis (and yes, perhapsh Pentos) Westeros is a different story, I agree, because by the time they get there I doubt Dany will have to wage much war beyond the DoD 2.0 with fAegon. And then when *that* is done, there will be little to no time to fight any other war cause...ice zombies.

Gotta pop out for a bit, but I want to get to Sean's essay later today :)

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys and Cersei Parallel Lives Part I.II

Love and Sexuality

Excellent essay, SeanF! This is a really interesting topic for both ladies (and also Arianne, another reason why I think AFFC and ADWD should not have been split up).

In Dany’s case, he is the elder brother she never knew, but who she places on a pedestal. To her, he is the epitome of knighthood, chivalry, and virtue.

Yes I very much agree. When Dany is compared to Rhaegar by Barry or Jorah, it's a high compliment and she takes it as such. Many people criticize Dany for this, saying that she's ignorant of what Rhaegar "did" or that she's preferring to see the Targs as unique and special but I think it's far more complicated than that. First, she has Viserys whispering in her ear about the sort of man Rhaegar was. Second, Rhaegar is dead and I tink that plays into this quiet heavily. She romanticizes him because he is dead and that's what we do for dead relatives. Jon doesn't know if his mother is dead or alive (dead) but he pictures her as a highborn lady with kind eyes without knowing one way or the other.

There is also a lot to be said about Dany and the fantasy world she often constructs. Because her early life was so trying, being on the run, having no home, having an abusive older brother, Dany clings to the "fairy tales" in books, like the ones Jorah gives her. In these stories knights are honorable and chivalrous and all the maids are pretty and sweet. For her, Rhaegar is part of one of those stories. Dany, obviously, knows that her own reality isn't very "fairy tale" like but her dream world is--one where she is at home in a nice house and with "arms to keep her warm." That is why when the fantasy world she believes in gets smacked around, she gets distressed; Jorah kissing her isn't bad to her because it's Jorah, but because it's a knight kissing his Queen and "no true knight" would kiss his Queen. It flies in the face of that "fairy tale" world. So when Dany does learn more about Rhaegar and her father and the rest of her family, it will be interesting to see if she loses some of those fanciful constructs that she holds on to.

Through Cersei’s recollections in A Feast for Crows, we learn that she very largely agrees. At the age of six or seven, her father told her she was to marry Rhaegar. She was thrilled, and was smitten with him when she met him for the first time, when he took part in a tourney at Lannisport. One of the most poignant parts of Cersei’s story is when she recalls how, as a child, she drew a picture of Rhaegar and herself riding a dragon together. She was devastated when Aerys rejected the betrothal in insulting terms. Her Aunt promised her a better man than Rhaegar, but “father found no better man. Instead, he gave me Robert…..” Years later, she still wishes she could have been Rhaegar’s Queen and the mother of his children. “She had never forgiven Robert for killing him.” Later, she recalls that “the wrong man had returned from the Trident.”

Part of me wonders if Cersei romanticizes Rhaegar not because she was so deeply enamored of him (does Cersei really and truly love anyone besides Cersei?) but because she was given Robert instead. What if Cersei had been allowed to marry Jaime or some other high born noble who treated her well and good and deferred to her? Would Rhaegar still hold as strong a hold on Cersei's heart? I somewhat doubt it. I think a lot Cersei's feelings about Rhaegar are only in light of her current situation.

It is hard to know whether their marriage would have been a successful one.

I think it would have been a disaster. Cersei loves herself and power too much. Rhaegar would always be the people's prince and likely would not have turned to his wife for assistance in matters because Cersei's instincts are just wrong when it comes to dealing with problems and peasantry. Thus, because Rhaegar does not turn to Cersei, she would have become resentful and angry, begun her affair with Jaime again, and come to hate Rhaegar.

Of course, the other great love of Cersei’s life is her twin brother, Jaime.

Yes and no. In terms of ranking the great of loves of Cersei's life I think it goes like this:

1) Cersei

2) Jaime (who Cersei sees as a male extension of herself)

3) Joffery (who is Cersei with no restraint)

4) Cersei again

5) Other Children

Dany’s attitude parallels this. Although royal incest became less common in the last century of Targaryen rule, both her father and grandfather were married to their sisters. She herself was raised to believe that marriage to Viserys was her natural destiny. Unlike the relationship between Cersei and Jaime, though, her relationship with Viserys was abusive. In her first chapter in A Game of Thrones, we see Viserys undressing and groping her. Her lack of reaction suggests that this was something she was well-used to, and knew better than to object to. Later, we discover from Tyrion’s conversation with Illyrio that Viserys tried to rape her on the night before her wedding. A life as Viserys’s wife or concubine would surely have been a nightmare for her.

I think it contrasts it more than parallels. Cersei is 100% okay with the incest and even encourages it and uses it to her advantage, though she does love Jaime. But Dany doesn't want to be Viserys's wife; she was resigned to that fate just because she thought it's what she had to do being a Targaryen. In other words, Cersei is the active and Dany is the passive when it comes to incest with brothers.

There is also the fact that Cersei presents herself to Jaime as a lover on many occasions. She'll tempt him with her body and his love for her. Dany mutely stands still when Viserys uncovers her. She doesn't try to persuade Viserys with sex but with words and her new position as Khalessi.

Cersei seems to have had no objection to the idea of marriage to Robert**. Indeed, she recalls looking forward to sex on their wedding night, only to be disgusted by his drunkenness, and his mistaking her for Lyanna Stark.

IMO, Cersei would have been excited no matter who it was--so long as it meant she got to be Queen. She was excited about that, not necessarily the marriage to another man. Remember, she had sex with Jaime on her wedding day too, sex that is far more exciting to her and means far more. Cersei just couldn't stand Robert not being as in love with her as he was with Lyanna.

Some readers have argued that Drogo did in fact rape Dany, by virtue of the fact that she was thirteen when they married, and had no choice in her marriage. Yet, it seems clear to me that Dany does not view her marriage in this light.

I once had a PM conversation with Butterbumps about this. It's such a sensitive topic and I don't want to dwell on it, to be honest. I think the sex between Dany and Drogo can be broken down into three phases, two of which mirror each other.

1) The Wedding Night where Drogo took pains (that as a man and "king" in this time period he did not have to do) to arouse Dany and to ask her if it was okay to keep moving forward. Dany responds in the affirmative. This first night is not rape.

2) Post-First Night and Pre-Making-Rhaego: this is the complicated part. I honestly don't know. There is a lot of "technically speaking" that gets tossed around which tends to ruffle feathers on both sides of this because saying that this isn't rape or isn't "as bad" makes a lot of waves. For Dany it's treated not as rape in the conventional sense of abject humiliation and shame but it's not exactly sex as she understands it later either, with both Drogo and with Daario. This phase is an endurance test; it's something that she almost dissociates from and doesn't even think back on. And that's why it's problematic. Husbands forcing their wives to have sex in Westeros and Essos because it's their "right" is common and normative but...does that make it any less horrible? See. So in order to move on from this point, I'll guess I'll just say that I agree that Dany does not see it as rape, but that might be because in GRRM-World, characters understand rape to be a certain thing, which is not a husband claiming his "rights." (honestly, I hate writing that and I get why people see it as rape. I just don't know what GRRM intended here and that might be a bigger problem with GRRM and not Planetos)

3) Making Rhaego and Beyond: this is a mirror of phase one where Dany made the choice for herself. She chose to take control of the situation and began to experience pleasure with Drogo.

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless beneath him, as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine, and grunting like a boar….She was always sore afterwards, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he gave them.” Many readers interpret this passage to mean that Robert raped her, during their marriage, given that his “mauling” of her breasts recalls what Aerys did to Rhaella, her references to his “assaults”, and that “what shamed him during the day gave him pleasure at night.” Robert was not an intelligent man, and quite possibly he took revenge on Cersei by raping her. The fact is that she loathed him, and he loathed her, and neither of them could get away from each other.

Cersei is stuck in Dany's "phase two" that I wrote about above.

She believes that she can bind Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Taena into her service, through the promise of sex.

Cersei and Arianne have something in common here, then. While Arianne might have cared a little bit for Arys Oakheart in the end, they are both using their sexuality to control men. Dany doesn't do this. She doesn't bed Daario in order to make him loyal or keep his loyalty; she does it because she wants to sleep with him. There is no hidden agenda from her.

to her Taena is nothing more than a “Myrish whore”. Oddly, though she does seem to develop considerable affection for Taena, coming to view her as her only friend, helped no doubt, by the endless flattery that Taena pours out on her.

It is interesting, though if Taena wasn't so amenable, I doubt Cersei would feel the same affection or camaraderie for her. Cersei does what was done to her. She becomes Robert in AFFC. She drinks and is a glutton and uses Taena in the same way Robert used her. She even thinks about Robert during the handjob incident.

Why then did she take Irri to bed, at least twice in Meereen, when she knew “the girl’s kisses tasted of duty” and she really had no interest in sex with her? One can only suppose that Dany was so bored and depressed that she ignored her earlier moral objections.

When is the second time that she takes Irri to bed in Meereen? The first one is after she sends Jorah away (also the first time Irri "helps" her is post-Jorah's kiss on Balerion). Irri is, in those moments, a tool. That's harsh and I hate saying it, but that's how Dany views her in that moment. Irri's hands and mouth become a tool to help Dany vocalize something she wants but can't quite grasp, something she wants but doesn't know how to say outright. And no, I'm not trying to say that Dany wants Jorah but either can't or won't say that out loud, but both times that Dany relies on Irri (that I can think of) to lessen the pain and confusion of her reality and reach orgasm, it's tied to Jorah. This also goes back to that "fairy tale" world that I spoke of up thread. Dany saw Jorah has her redemptive white knight and over the course of one book she realizes that Jorah isn't the man she pictured him to be in her head, in that fantasy world. The first time she is really confronted by it is the kiss, and her response is masturbation and then allowing Irri to help her finish. The second time is when Jorah won't apologize for spying on her (Dany's own thoughts are about what Jorah should be doing, as if there is a script in her head about what a knight who has wronged himself should be saying) and Dany ultimately takes Irri to bed and shudders in release but realizes it's not what she wants and ends up looking for her red door and pretending the light she sees is Jorah leaving her.

I don't know what to make of it, to be honest. I know I spend a lot of time focusing on it so maybe I'm too close to it, but it's...interesting to me to say the least. Moving on...

It seems that Cersei, like Dany, is capable of love. Her feelings for Rhaegar, and (however disturbing these are to readers) Jaime, seem to demonstrate this. But, as with ruling, her selfishness and lack of empathy for her lovers, is her undoing.

Capable of love certainly. I don't think she's a sociopath. Cersei did love Joffery and does love Mrycella and Tommen, even if they aren't as high as Cersei places herself on her "who do I love" chart. But it's that, for Cersei, no one comes before her. She's incredibly selfish.

Nice job once again!

[Avlonnic]

BearQueen87 and SeanF - Excellent, as usual.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Excepted quotes from SeanF:

1) Her Aunt promised her a better man than Rhaegar, but “father found no better man. Instead, he gave me Robert…..” Years later, she still wishes she could have been Rhaegar’s Queen and the mother of his children. “She had never forgiven Robert for killing him.” Later, she recalls that “the wrong man had returned from the Trident.”

2) Of course, the other great love of Cersei’s life is her twin brother, Jaime.

3) It seems that Cersei, like Dany, is capable of love. Her feelings for Rhaegar, and (however disturbing these are to readers) Jaime, seem to demonstrate this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BearQueen87 responses:

1) Part of me wonders if Cersei romanticizes Rhaegar not because she was so deeply enamored of him (does Cersei really and truly love anyone besides Cersei?) but because she was given Robert instead.

2) In terms of ranking the great of loves of Cersei's life I think it goes like this:

3) Cersei did love Joffery and does love Mrycella and Tommen, even if they aren't as high as Cersei places herself on her "who do I love" chart. But it's that, for Cersei, no one comes before her. She's incredibly selfish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avlonnic:

1) Cersei, like Robert, desires most what seems out of reach or denied. I think Cersei is in love with the idea of Rhaegar, not unlike Robert is 'in love' with Lyanna and Jeyne Poole is 'in love' with Dondarrion. These people don't know the objects of their infatuations - they are just shiny objects admired from afar. Had they spent any time together, it would likely have been much like Sansa and Joffrey ("I love him, truly, I do!" ---> "Ugh, worm lips!").

2) I would add power and adulation to the list of Cersei's great loves.

3) I suppose I need to do a reread. It is difficult for me to describe what Cersei feels for her children (or really anyone) as 'love' except as extensions of herself. She is a most self-centered character. She is protective of her children (to a point) and she is possessive of them but is that love? Can most readers imagine Cersei sacrificing herself to save Jaime or Myrcella? But I vaguely recall someone stating that GRRM has confirmed that Cersei loves her children so I suppose it is a type of love in his world.

[BearQueen87]

Avlonnic:

1) Cersei, like Robert, desires most what seems out of reach or denied. I think Cersei is in love with the idea of Rhaegar, not unlike Robert is 'in love' with Lyanna and Jeyne Poole is 'in love' with Dondarrion. These people don't know the objects of their infatuations - they are just shiny objects admired from afar. Had they spent any time together, it would likely have been much like Sansa and Joffrey ("I love him, truly, I do!" ---> "Ugh, worm lips!").

100% agree. Ned remarks on the same idea in AGOT when he tells Robert, "you saw her beauty but not the steel underneath." Robert was enamored of Lyanna's beauty yet we have little to no interaction between them. Cersei was enamored of Rhaegar's beauty but we have little to no personal interaction between them at all, even though Cersei was living at court with her father, the Hand.

Side note, but Cersei is a bit more like Robert than she believes herself to be.

3) I suppose I need to do a reread. It is difficult for me to describe what Cersei feels for her children (or really anyone) as 'love' except as extensions of herself. She is a most self-centered character. She is protective of her children (to a point) and she is possessive of them but is that love? Can most readers imagine Cersei sacrificing herself to save Jaime or Myrcella? But I vaguely recall someone stating that GRRM has confirmed that Cersei loves her children so I suppose it is a type of love in his world.

"as an extension of herself" might be the best way to put it. Cersei hold on to them for dear life not really because she loves them the way any mother should love her children, but because they are her shield. Once her children are grown and have "flown the coop" as it were, what need is there for her?

At one point in AFFC she and Tommen are discussing that Tommen wants to be a part of the Council meetings--something admirable in an 8 yr old newly crowned king--and Cersei thinks something like, "I had to wait my turn. He can wait his." She is less emotionally mature than her 8 yr old son. She wants everything and she wants it now! *insert Lannister temper tantrum*

[Kyoshi]

Really, really excellent work, SeanF. I enjoyed reading this a lot. Great followup Bear Queen and Avlonnic

I don't think Cersei would have loved Rhaegar in the end. It might have not escalated to the sort of hatred she had for Robert but I don't think we can be sure that she would not have plotted to kill him too.

One thing I have to commend Martin for is the way he handled the sexuality of both women. Of all women in this series. The one thing I really enjoy about these books is that you don't get the Good Woman vs Bad Woman, where the designated Bad Woman enjoys sex and is punished heavily for it. I applaud that Cersei enjoys sexual freedom...If only she could be smart while doing it. The biggest mistake she makes is to link this freedom with everything she can purchase with it. And in the end she gets punished for being an idiot more than anything else.

Dany also enjoys sex but she uses it differently. It doesn't earn her anything except joy with Daario. I don't think she enjoys it at all with Hizdhar and she is married to him. And it's political. Very complicated stuff for me here.

You're right in saying it gets tricky with Drogo. I agree that the first night is not rape. My opinion is that after that it is. I don't know if there is such a term as systematic rape but I think that's what it is here. It's like you say Bear Queen, rape is seen as a specific thing in Martin's world and soon as the act steps outside that rigid definition, then it's not rape anymore. That's if I understand you correctly. I apologise if I'm putting words in your mouth. Dany sees it as her duty, as does Drogo I think. Which is where I ask--does it matter how WE see it or is Dany's perspective good enough? Is it still rape even if she doesn't think it is?

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

When it comes to sex, they differ that Dany has it when she wants to, while Cersei regards sex as a tool to gain favours, make power plays on people. Does Cersei actually lust after anyone in the series? Maybe Rhaegar, but is Rhaegar just Cersei's Lyanna - a romanticised version of nothing there?

Daenerys uses her gender is order for men to underestimate her, she actually uses her gender as a weapon, that's quite clever. While Cersei thinks her gender holds her ambitions back and scorns it (big case of the penis envies).

Daenerys proves that femininity is a far more potent weapon and is more of a strength rather than sex and Cersei fails to see this which leads to her downfall. A lesson for all women perhaps? A lesson that Sansa might start to realise?

[BearQueen87]

You're right in saying it gets tricky with Drogo. I agree that the first night is not rape. My opinion is that after that it is. I don't know if there is such a term as systematic rape but I think that's what it is here. It's like you say Bear Queen, rape is seen as a specific thing in Martin's world and soon as the act steps outside that rigid definition, then it's not rape anymore. That's if I understand you correctly. I apologise if I'm putting words in your mouth. Dany sees it as her duty, as does Drogo I think. Which is where I ask--does it matter how WE see it or is Dany's perspective good enough? Is it still rape even if she doesn't think it is?

That's exactly what I was saying.

As a 21st century woman, my perspective is Dany clearly does not enjoy having sex with Drogo during "phase two;" she in pain during all of it to the point where she decides to end her life. To me, this is a clear case of a woman being forced to sleep with her husband without actual consent because her other options are forcible rape (by which I mean Drogo pinning her while Dany screamed no), gang-rape at the hands of his bloodriders, or death. Dany never again, while in phase two, says yes. She dreads Drogo coming to her.

BUT when I take off my 21st century admittedly very feminist perspective lenses and try to be inside GRRM-world then would anyone in that world call it rape? Dany wouldn't, and she is well schooled in what rape is; she is a first hand witness to the raping of the Lamb Women but never takes watching that and reflects it back on her "phase two" ordeal. She never thinks about how this is what Drogo was doing to her. By Westeros custom and law, if we're keeping with the pseudo-medieval time period, a woman's body belonged to her husband. She could not turn him away, so long as they were married and she was not gravely ill. Look at Ramsey and Lady Hornwood. Everyone is disgusted by it (and by Ramsey and fArya later) but it's the husband's right to use his wife's body for sexual pleasure. The issue is how he seized her lands and how nervous that makes the Starks and other northmen. Rape, then, in GRRM-world is about power and control and dominance between a man and a woman who are not married. It's a soldier who wants to assert his control and power over a village woman who was just conquered. She's an object that can be easily disposed of afterwords, but not one that the law and custom has "given" to this man in wedlock.

So which perspective am I supposed to take? Because how can I take a 21st century perspective on this matter, but then use "but it's a different time!" as an excuse when we look at other Dany (and other characters) matters--her liberation of SB, the 163, the torture, her age and place in the world.

You bring up a good point wrt to "is Dany's perspective good enough?" One the things you hear about a lot in modern media is how quick we are to dismiss a victims status as a victim when we don't agree with them. So, people tell men and woman who say they were assaulted, "no you were not because that's not the definition of rape as I understand it." We deny them their status of a victim and instead turn them into some sort of piranha (anyone following the Bill Cosby story? How many of those women had their lives turned inside out by the media to see if they were lying instead of investigating Cosby...?). So if I should not take away someone's victim status, should I also not take away their status as "not a victim." Dany never thinks back on that time of phase two...she never calls herself a victim of rape or abuse. For wont of a better turn of phrase here, she passes her endurance test and she begins to take greater pleasure in the Dorthraki, the riding, and Drogo. So me coming up and telling her (if, you know, I could talk to her...) and telling her she's a victim of rape, she just doesn't know it, is quite presumptuous of me, is it not?

And honestly *that* might be the conversation GRRM wants us to have instead of the back forth over rape, the 163, ect. How does the fact that we have two very valid perspectives shape us as readers and influence how we are reading ASOAIF. And, for the characters in universe, who constantly run up against different perspectives, how would they handle having two different takes on situations?

When it comes to sex, they differ that Dany has it when she wants to, while Cersei regards sex as a tool to gain favours, make power plays on people. Does Cersei actually lust after anyone in the series? Maybe Rhaegar, but is Rhaegar just Cersei's Lyanna - a romanticised version of nothing there?

I've long believed that the only reason why Cersei began to fool around/have sex with Jaime is because he looks just like her.

[Kyoshi]

Yeah, I'm just a young girl, innocent in the ways of war.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Talking about rape very gingerly. I am a man, so I probably do not fully understand so I ask...

Is rape worse with a stranger than with a boyfriend/husband or are both equal? Now my mother says that being raped by a stranger is far worse... which is an odd reasoning for me. Apparently men were more forceful way back in the past, I have found a rape in my family and 3 other possible rapes while researching my family tree (all lover 100 years ago). There is a possibility that my great grandmother was forced to marry her rapist because she became pregnant by him - a horrible horrible thing to happen. One of my ex-girlfriends was raped by one of her boyfriend at the time - I was horrified, she seemed non-plussed about it - she didn't press charges - I couldn't believe that.

Trying to understand the historical context of marital rape - there was no such thing in a medieval setting, so we are applying modern standards ( at least I thought so) to a historical setting.

[Kyoshi]

I see it like this: she said yes once and Drogo just took that and ran with it. That first yes seems to have sustained all the times they had sex. I now wonder what the sexual customs between Dothraki men and Dothraki women are like. I mean, was Drogo being sweet and considerate on that first night or was he following some kind of custom?

I firmly hold the position that it is rape. I realise I could be very wrong and this definitely limits the discussion. But I'm one of those naive people who believe that some things are just wrong, regardless of the time period in which they exist, the place, whatever.

But you make very good points, Bear Queen, you ask thought provoking questions. I must thank you for engaging my brain.

I think that Cersei started sleeping with Jaime because she was in love with herself. I think he may have done the same. However you look at it, that relationship is just messed up. Even the Targaryen relationships. Sorry to go off topic but you have situations where a brother is challenging his brother to some form of duel because they are in love with their sister. That's fucked up.

[Kyoshi]

Talking about rape very gingerly. I am a man, so I probably do not fully understand so I ask...

Is rape worse with a stranger than with a boyfriend/husband or are both equal? Now my mother says that being raped by a stranger is far worse... which is an odd reasoning for me. Apparently men were more forceful way back in the past, I have found a rape in my family and 3 other possible rapes while researching my family tree (all lover 100 years ago). There is a possibility that my great grandmother was forced to marry her rapist because she became pregnant by him - a horrible horrible thing to happen. One of my ex-girlfriends was raped by one of her boyfriend at the time - I was horrified, she seemed non-plussed about it - she didn't press charges - I couldn't believe that.

Trying to understand the historical context of marital rape - there was no such thing in a medieval setting, so we are applying modern standards ( at least I thought so) to a historical setting.

I would think that it would be worse with someone you know since you maybe trusted that person. And maybe you get to see them after it happens. A stranger can just disappear. But I can't say with any certainty.

[SeanF]

This is a sensitive topic.

Dany's pain when she has sex with Drogo is bound up with her pain at learning to ride a horse. For those who've never been brought up to ride from childhood, it's incredibly painful to learn to do it for the first time, at the age of 13. That is a large part of Dany's misery.

I think that Drogo thinks his wife has consented to sex. He doesn't appreciate how upset she is.

[BearQueen87]

Talking about rape very gingerly. I am a man, so I probably do not fully understand so I ask...

Is rape worse with a stranger than with a boyfriend/husband or are both equal? Now my mother says that being raped by a stranger is far worse... which is an odd reasoning for me. Apparently men were more forceful way back in the past, I have found a rape in my family and 3 other possible rapes while researching my family tree (all lover 100 years ago). There is a possibility that my great grandmother was forced to marry her rapist because she became pregnant by him - a horrible horrible thing to happen. One of my ex-girlfriends was raped by one of her boyfriend at the time - I was horrified, she seemed non-plussed about it - she didn't press charges - I couldn't believe that.

Trying to understand the historical context of marital rape - there was no such thing in a medieval setting, so we are applying modern standards ( at least I thought so) to a historical setting.

"Fun" Fact of the day: one of the laws of the Bible is that a woman had to marry their rapists.

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days

Deut 22:29

Rape is treated quite differently through different ages. It's only more recently that we've begun talking about it as a violent and flat-out bad act. Think about ASOIAF...how many peasant women are raped during the Wot5K? HUNDREDS. How many men are ever going to be persecuted or brought up on charges? Very very very few. It's simply "the way of war" as Jorah says to Dany in AGOT. It's how men conceive of war and victory in that time period. They've won a battle, they've survived, they get a prize. To the victor go the spoils and that means sexual and well as monetary.

Even as recently as the 60s, rape was under reported and thought to be "sex that got out of hand." If it was reported, and to an extent this is true to this day, a lot is done to cover it up or keep it quiet so that the man responsible faces little charge. If you live in America then over the past year or so you've probably heard about lots of high school rapes that are swept under the rug so that it does not take away the "bright futures" of the male rapist. It's sad and it happens all the time, still.

I see it like this: she said yes once and Drogo just took that and ran with it. That first yes seems to have sustained all the times they had sex. I now wonder what the sexual customs between Dothraki men and Dothraki women are like. I mean, was Drogo being sweet and considerate on that first night or was he following some kind of custom?

The former. We know, for instance, that Dany's handmaids are being raped on a nightly basis by the bloodriders. None of them ask Dany or Drogo's permission to do this. They just take what they think is theirs by rights. The wedding night seems to be a wholly unique experience.

I firmly hold the position that it is rape. I realise I could be very wrong and this definitely limits the discussion. But I'm one of those naive people who believe that some things are just wrong, regardless of the time period in which they exist, the place, whatever.

But you make very good points, Bear Queen, you ask thought provoking questions. I must thank you for engaging my brain.

I'm certainly not trying to change your perspective and I share it; rape is rape is rape and it's wrong wrong wrong. I just also know that in GRRMworld it's far more complicated that we want to make it because of custom and law and tradition and to openly dismiss all of that while embracing law and custom and tradition for other non-rape instances (like her age and ability to rule) involving our girl is....human. It's human but we have to be aware that we're doing it.

This is a sensitive topic.

Dany's pain when she has sex with Drogo is bound up with her pain at learning to ride a horse. For those who've never been brought up to ride from childhood, it's incredibly painful to learn to do it for the first time, at the age of 13. That is a large part of Dany's misery.

I think that Drogo thinks his wife has consented to sex. He doesn't appreciate how upset she is.

The whole opening portion of Dany III in AGOT is her "endurance test" as I called it up thread because you're right; it's not just sex with Drogo. It's learning to ride a horse, it's being among people that don't speak her language, it's being young and scared and alone, but Dany sees it, after the fact, as something she overcame and conquered and I think she's almost proud that she was able to do it. It's passing her endurance test that she's able to stand up to Viserys in the Sea and then enter phase three of her sexual relationship with Drogo.

[SeanF]

Dany herself buys into the view that women are part of the spoils of war. As far as she knows, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at swordpoint, and she thinks this was romantic, and still idealises her brother.

She was disgusted by the cruelty of Eroeh being gang-raped, but her alternative was for the Dothraki to take female captives as wives, rather than to leave them alone.

Within Westeros, rape is considered to be depraved behaviour. Men get hanged, castrated, and sent to the Wall for it. But, they have no notion of marital rape being a crime. And of course, moral standards break down, during the course of civil war.

[BearQueen87]

Dany herself buys into the view that women are part of the spoils of war. As far as she knows, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at swordpoint, and she thinks this was romantic, and still idealises her brother. She was disgusted by the cruelty of Eroeh being gang-raped, but her alternative was for the Dothraki to take female captives as wives, rather than to leave them alone.

True. Because (looks like I get to beat Parwan to the punch) Daenerys Targaryen fits in. But she also stands apart from others in this regard. For example, would Cersei ever stop to end the rape of women she doesn't know? Doesn't she have a line about how Septas must be praying for a good raping? (am I misremembering that?) Cersei likes to paint herself as a victim, but fact is, as the daughter of the single most powerful man in Westeros, she hasn't had to go through half of what Dany has. And that's why Dany has far more empathy than Cersei could ever muster.

[SeanF]

True. Because (looks like I get to beat Parwan to the punch) Daenerys Targaryen fits in. But she also stands apart from others in this regard. For example, would Cersei ever stop to end the rape of women she doesn't know? Doesn't she have a line about how Septas must be praying for a good raping? (am I misremembering that?) Cersei likes to paint herself as a victim, but fact is, as the daughter of the single most powerful man in Westeros, she hasn't had to go through half of what Dany has. And that's why Dany has far more empathy than Cersei could ever muster.

Sadly, it's not uncommon for people who've been sexually abused to have very little sympathy for others who suffer the same way. Hence you get Shae saying "all they did was fuck her", when talking about Lollys, and driving her "like a beast".

In my view, Cersei is plainly terrified that she'll be raped and tortured, prior to being executed, if Kings Landing falls. But, she deals with her fears by trying to

scare Sansa, and almost seems to relish the plight of the women in the Red Keep. In the same situation, Dany would be doing her best to keep their spirits up, even if she was equally terrified.

Forced marriage of captive women is something of a grey area in this world. On the one hand, Ramsay Bolton's kidnap of Lady Hornwood is treated unequivocally as a crime in Winterfell. The Starks and their supporters would

certainly regard the weddings of Sansa, and "Arya" as crimes. On the other hand, you have groups like the Ironborn taking salt-wives, the wildlings stealing women, and women having to wed their conquerors, like Orys Baratheon.

WRT Lyanna, I think most readers would be surprised, and disappointed, to learn that Rhaegar really had kidnapped her at sword point. It's curious that this seems to be the version of the story that Dany believes.

[BearQueen87]

WRT Lyanna, I think most readers would be surprised, and disappointed, to learn that Rhaegar really had kidnapped her at sword point. It's curious that this seems to be the version of the story that Dany believes.

Is it curious? I think it makes somewhat sense. Viserys likely heard that was what happened since that was (again most likely) the general rumor of Westeros and the Free Cities after Robert's Rebellion. And even if those rumors or the official line from the new Baratheon monarchy aren't reaching Viserys and Dany's ears, it's the most "logical" assumption about a royal married prince and a virgin northern girl. No one suspects that it is a romance--not even the northern girl's two brothers until it's to late for the girl.

Also I think Dany believing any other version of events about R and L (such as a romance) wouldn't quite be keeping how GRRM writes about R and L since the idea that theirs was a romance and not a kidnap/rape is buried under a lot of other stuff that you have to dig out to get to.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That was great essay SeanF and very great responses from everyone aswell.

In terms of the incest I think Dany sees it as a duty just like her Targaryen heritage, I'm not sure if she likes it but she sees it as a duty. That's why she even mentioned that she would have married Aegon had he been alive, I wonder what her reaction will be when she finds out about him, will she accept a marriage proposal if he offers one? I think it will be one of the conflicts she will have versus the possibility of him being fake.

There is also a lot to be said about Dany and the fantasy world she often constructs. Because her early life was so trying, being on the run, having no home, having an abusive older brother, Dany clings to the "fairy tales" in books, like the ones Jorah gives her. In these stories knights are honorable and chivalrous and all the maids are pretty and sweet. For her, Rhaegar is part of one of those stories. Dany, obviously, knows that her own reality isn't very "fairy tale" like but her dream world is--one where she is at home in a nice house and with "arms to keep her warm." That is why when the fantasy world she believes in gets smacked around, she gets distressed; Jorah kissing her isn't bad to her because it's Jorah, but because it's a knight kissing his Queen and "no true knight" would kiss his Queen. It flies in the face of that "fairy tale" world. So when Dany does learn more about Rhaegar and her father and the rest of her family, it will be interesting to see if she loses some of those fanciful constructs that she holds on to.

II agree, there is a lot to be said. Just as you said, these fantasy constructs are what help people survive throughout tough periods of life. I think that's part of the reason why initially Dany found it so hard to hear about the bad parts of her family's life, she has held on to all these "fairy tales" about her family and westerosas some sort of survival mechanism for all these years.

Avlonnic:

1) Cersei, like Robert, desires most what seems out of reach or denied. I think Cersei is in love with the idea of Rhaegar, not unlike Robert is 'in love' with Lyanna and Jeyne Poole is 'in love' with Dondarrion. These people don't know the objects of their infatuations - they are just shiny objects admired from afar. Had they spent any time together, it would likely have been much like Sansa and Joffrey ("I love him, truly, I do!" ---> "Ugh, worm lips!").

Agreed. I think Sansa's story is kind of an inner look at that theme within this story, which is that love is much more complex than "shiny objects"