The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[SeanF]

In this same conversation, Doran refers to the three oldest Sand Snakes who are present (Obara, Nymeria and Tyene) as representing valor, pride and a kind heart (it may have been a good heart - I had the CDs, so it's hard to go back to look for exact quotes). This sort of caught my ear in a new way, and I remembered Hrafntýr's good insight (post #152 on this thread) that the worm, leech, serpent and dragon are often part of a related set of symbols. Could the Sand Snakes be Dorne's equivalent of dragons? They are the daughters of the Red Viper, after all. And Prince Doran gives the three older snakes assignments to infiltrate King's Landing, so they are being used as weapons of a sort. With the death of his brother, it seems that Prince Doran has now "hatched" three new vipers to become his allies in avenging the deaths of his family.

"Kind-hearted" or "good-hearted" is not the term that comes to mind when thinking of Tyene. She's a poisoner.

[BearQueen87]

"Kind-hearted" or "good-hearted" is not the term that comes to mind when thinking of Tyene. She's a poisoner.

She presents herself as a kind-hearted person, but I agree. She's as much the Red Viper's hot-blooded daughter as Nym and Obara.

[MoIaF]

Hm. I don't quite think it's the same thing. Arianne is clearly using her sexual prowess to get Arys to do what she wants. She is actually just naked when he arrives. She got him to break his vows, she wore him down. Dany simply talks to her husband after sex. She doesn't go into the sexual encounter with the intention of making Drogo bend to her will. Afterwards she doesn't try to convince him of anything with her body; she uses words. It isn't successful because Drogo is harder (not a double entendre) than Arys and will only be convinced by a threat to Dany and their son. Sex for Drogo is different than it is to Arys as well. Drogo is just a sexual man by nature. He is faithful to Dany, so far as we know, but it's not as if he has to be. He could have any woman in his khalasaar. Arys is celibate by choice and job and Arianne uses that to her advantage--again the clothing, the flirting, the slow seduction to get him to break his vows and listen to her somewhat contrived plan.

So in short I don't think Dany's "pillow talk" is really even pillow talk--which as the connotation of cutesy and intimate conversation--but just conversation after sex.

Good point!

Oh, I agree with you.

What I had meant was that for Dany the intimacy with her husband was real and if she convinced her husband to see things her way it's because they shared a bond with him. While Arianne on the other hand used a sort of false intimacy to get Arys to see things her way, it wasn't because they shared a bond but because sex was a tool. I was juxtaposing the two.

[BearQueen87]

Oh, I agree with you.

What I had meant was that for Dany the intimacy with her husband was real and if she convinced her husband to see things her way it's because they shared a bond with him. While Arianne on the other hand used a sort of false intimacy to get Arys to see things her way, it wasn't because they shared a bond but because sex was a tool. I was juxtaposing the two.

Gotcha, gotcha.

Speaking of juxtaposing these two ladies, I re-read "The Spoiler Knight" chapter last night. Damn, I had forgotten just how much Arianne plays Arys. I mean, it's deftly done, but it's not exactly subtle. And I think there is some more we can get out of this when we look at this moment vs Dany.

Arianne is giving all these pretty words about nakedness vs clothing--in short, clothing makes us different people, but being naked and being of one flesh is when we are our true selves. On the one hand, it's ironic because she's lying and scheming and playing him like a fiddle. But OTOH, this is who Arianne wants to be (her true self): the player, the smart one, the woman who could and should rule Dorne. But after Arys and Arianne have sex, Arianne stays naked and is absolutely manipulating Arys. She touches herself, she tries to touch him, she talks about their bodies together, and then when that isn't quite working, she puts on the front of "scared little princess" and goes into his arms and trembles and proceeds to talk about how scared she is and that Arys is her knight and all those pretty words. It ends with him going down on one knee and swearing to her and she gives a few more pretty words about how Arys is her love, her one true sweet love, but only if he does this one things first--the one thing being to bring Myrcella to her.

Dany has never done anything like this, even though we have several moments of her being naked. Even when she's abed with Daario and jokingly commands him to come back to bed, it's words, she's not flaunting her body to him the way Arianne does with Arys. Dany has had other moments of near nakedness and actual nakedness. She's completely nude when she comes forth from the fire, minus her dragons (one of her most true forms, the Mother of Dragons). The other two moments that I can think of right now, she's conscious of her nakedness and does her best to cover up a bit (Vaes Tolloro and the ship Balerion, and in this latter one, she forgets for a moment when she gets excited and throws off her coverlet, but not with the intention of seducing the man in the cabin. Might be worth pointing out that both of these moments include Dany's own "soiled knight" who is also "a fool in love.") But she never tries to use her body and sexuality for any agenda.

The reason I'm harping on this is because I think it's one of the biggest contrasts between Dany and Arianne. Dany never uses sex as a weapon not because she has other weapons (dragons, knights, ect) but I think it might be because her first experiences with any sort of sexual encounters were traumatizing. We've touched on this in various places but I'm pretty sure that Viserys touching Dany's breast and hurting her in AGOT Dany I was not the first instance of such a thing. Dany takes it too calmly, as if she it has happened before and she knows not to react. Her first night with Drogo ends on a good note because Drogo takes the time to arouse Dany, but think about how terrified she was going into that moment. Contrast this with Arianne who gave up her maidenhead around the same age as Dany but willingly and with someone she wasn't forced into having sex with. Sex for Arianne has always been a good thing because she's been able to seek it out and make her own choices.

We talk about how Arianne and Dany are going to be enemies most likely because Arianne is probably going to marry fAegon and we're going to get the Dance 2.0. But I also think they might look at each other and see their mirror image. Arianne, the sexually liberated woman who pretends to power but can only get it from a man. Dany, the sexually repressed (for the most part) woman who has actual power that she took on her own. Might there be some jealousy on both parts? Dany might wish to be more sexually liberated (refusing to sleep with Daario after she is wed for example is not something Arianne would agree to) and Arianne wishes she had more power.

Ok, those are my random thoughts at the moment.

[SeanF]

I don't think Dany is sufficiently cynical to try to manipulate someone through sex. Sex with Daario may help to ensure that he remains loyal to her, but she does it because she enjoys it. I think it's debateable how much Dany loves Daario, but she's clearly very fond of him and strongly attracted to him.

Arianne isn't entirely cynical in her treatment of Ser Arys. At least, she never intended to get him killed, and she really is filled with remorse about his death. She breaks down in tears about it, in The Princess in the Tower. But, she's a good deal more cynical than Dany is.

[BearQueen87]

Arianne isn't entirely cynical in her treatment of Ser Arys. At least, she never intended to get him killed, and she really is filled with remorse about his death. She breaks down in tears about it, in The Princess in the Tower. But, she's a good deal more cynical than Dany is.

I agree that Arianne never wanted to get Arys killed, but I think her remorse is tied very strongly to her guilt and her own ill conceived plan.

ETA: Arianne confesses that beautiful dangerous boys are her weakness, something that Arys isn't. So, I think it's far more manipulative than actual caring. Like Dany and Daario, I wonder how much love Dany and Arianne have for the men they are bedding.

[SeanF]

I agree that Arianne never wanted to get Arys killed, but I think her remorse is tied very strongly to her guilt and her own ill conceived plan.

ETA: Arianne confesses that beautiful dangerous boys are her weakness, something that Arys isn't. So, I think it's far more manipulative than actual caring. Like Dany and Daario, I wonder how much love Dany and Arianne have for the men they are bedding.

She certainly has strong feelings for Ser Daemon Sand, although I'm not sure how far they're reciprocated. Daemon was certainly bruised by the outcome of their earlier affair.

Arianne is prone to wishful thinking. It never seems to have occurred to her that her plot was likely to result in people getting killed, whether it succeeded or failed. Now she has to face up to the fact that she bears a lot of the responsibility for the death of Ser Arys, and the injury to Myrcella .

Dany's situation is subtly different. She knows that people will have to die to achieve her goals, and it's something she's wrestled with, during her story. In her final chapter, it seems she's come to terms with that fact.

[BearQueen87]

I think there is another parallel we can bring up between Dany and Arianne and that is trusting the wrong people, though they tend to trust different sorts of people.

We already touched on the fact that Arianne has a weakness for dangerous beautiful men. Darkstar fulfills that in her arc. Her milk brother Garin and her friend Andrey Dalt both express their reluctance to let Darkstar be part of their entourage when they take Myrcella. Even Arianne doubts if she can trust him, but rationalizes it with needing his sword. And of course, Darkstar ends up hurting Myrcella when the party is taken by Areo Hotah. And in WOW Arianne feels that he is her most grievous sin.

Dany too has a weakness for dangerous and beautiful men, but so far Daario hasn't betrayed her, so we can leave him aside for the moment. For Dany, it's the mother figures. She is too trusting of old motherly women who present themselves as kind and helpful. Mirri Maz Durr and The Green Grace, are the two examples I am thinking of. I don't think it's a stretch to say that because Dany has lacked a mother figure her whole life that she is more gullible when it comes to these women.

[Parwan]

Queen Alysanne, Many thanks.

We know a good deal about Dany, who has 31 chapters. We know much less about Arianne, who only has three chapters, plus one sample chapter from TWOW. We're left guessing about how Arianne's story and character will develop.

However, there are a number of points that occur to me:

1. Both have been woefully ill-educated for the positions which they occupy. In Dany's case, that's due to her exile. She's been taught to read and write and do maths, and she has a gift for languages, but her knowledge of the politics and history of Westeros, or law and government, is hazy in the extreme. Arianne has been deliberately kept ignorant by her father. He planned that she should marry Viserys, whereas Quentyn would inherit Dorne. Her duties have been confined to presiding over "feasts and frolics". Suddenly, she is Doran's heir after all, with absolutely no experience of the business of government.

2. Both of them have a great deal of empathy. Arianne is filled with remorse for the death of Ser Arys Oakheart, and worry for the fate of her friends, once her plot has failed. Dany's concern for her followers is well-documented.

...

,

I agree with these two points, especially the first one. Doran, frankly, did a lousy job with Arianne, and he fails to acknowledge it. He also fails to acknowledge the fact that the situation with Myrcella is more his fault than it is his daughter's. Yes, the little princess is his ward, and he failed miserably in her protection. He is the Prince of Dorne, and he puts most of the blame for a bad situation on a person in whom he has placed no trust. His argument for why he allowed Myrcella to be taken off is bogus. The essence is: You are my little girl, Arianne. I have never trusted you, never given you any responsibility. Even now, I demand that you tell me how you learned things and refuse to tell you my source of information. I am the leader, and I let you abduct an important person. If war results, it will be "what you have given us." Why did I allow you to cooperate with a man like Darkstar? "I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me." I knew the facts; I failed to act properly. Furthermore, the plan I put in place didn't even result in the apprehension of the most dangerous of the plotters. I did this because "I had to learn the truth."

Another matter that is worthy of note here: At this point in the story, no one seems to realize that Dorne's position is not nearly as weak as Doran presents it. For example, the fact that there is a civil war going on in the realm is ignored. None of the Martells or their friends brings this up until Obara mentions it in ADwD.

Great analysis Queen Alysanne

Arianne is a pretender while Dany is a contender, but as you note they do share a few things in common. Also of note is that Arianne is about 8 years older than Dany.

SeanF made a comment about their lack of education and in Dany's case she really didn't have a choice in Arianne's case even though Doran didn't have her educated for rule, I feel like if she believed she should rule she would make an effort to learn. Meereen being an anomaly but throughout Dany's story she makes an effort to learn, she's a sponge that takes everything in. She believes by right she should be queen but she also believes she should earn that right...

Arianne is the legitimate heir to Dorne. I don't see how she is a pretender.

It is difficult to learn much when you are kept in the dark and given no responsibility. However, Arianne does learn, and what she learns is about what should have been expected: Don't trust a man who doesn't trust you.

Actually, she does a good bit more than that. She analyzes the leadership situation in the Seven Kingdoms better than Dany does. This isn't surprising, but she also analyzes things better than most lords do. Her conversations with Ser Arys aren't all about love and sex. The laws of the realm are more flexible than most of those in power want to admit. The rules about the Kingsguard, for example, can be changed. If the rule about celibacy were to be changed, would Arianne be willing to marry Arys? Given her general attitude about marriage, I think this is probable. More important is the matter of succession. Myrcella seems more fit to rule than Tommen. She is also the older sibling. The good of the kingdom is more important than rules which are not immutable and should not be seen as immutable. Arianne Martell knows this. She gets Arys Oakheart to see it. Most people probably know it at some level, but they refuse to acknowledge it.

In some important respects, Arianne's thinking is more sound than her father's. His plan to send an inexperienced young man out across a stormy, pirate-filled sea to deal with a young woman whose father was known as "the Mad King" is not great. What Arianne should have done, what everyone in the Dornish court should have done, is to discuss various options and weigh them carefully. This didn't happen. Secrecy, plots, abduction, revenge--these are the Martell methods.

[SeanF]

I agree with these two points, especially the first one. Doran, frankly, did a lousy job with Arianne, and he fails to acknowledge it. He also fails to acknowledge the fact that the situation with Myrcella is more his fault than it is his daughter's. Yes, the little princess is his ward, and he failed miserably in her protection. He is the Prince of Dorne, and he puts most of the blame for a bad situation on a person in whom he has placed no trust. His argument for why he allowed Myrcella to be taken off is bogus. The essence is: You are my little girl, Arianne. I have never trusted you, never given you any responsibility. Even now, I demand that you tell me how you learned things and refuse to tell you my source of information. I am the leader, and I let you abduct an important person. If war results, it will be "what you have given us." Why did I allow you to cooperate with a man like Darkstar? "I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me." I knew the facts; I failed to act properly. Furthermore, the plan I put in place didn't even result in the apprehension of the most dangerous of the plotters. I did this because "I had to learn the truth."

Another matter that is worthy of note here: At this point in the story, no one seems to realize that Dorne's position is not nearly as weak as Doran presents it. For example, the fact that there is a civil war going on in the realm is ignored. None of the Martells or their friends brings this up until Obara mentions it in ADwD.

Arianne is the legitimate heir to Dorne. I don't see how she is a pretender.

The kindest explanation I can come up with for Doran's behaviour is that he was trying to shelter Arianne from the horrors of life in Westeros. But, even that isn't much of an argument. Elia's fate (or Lady Darklyn's) shows that she would be running grave risks even as Viserys' wife.

But, in any case, what did Doran think would happen if he suddenly died (he's not well?) How could he expect Arianne to pick up the pieces?

[BearQueen87]

I agree with these two points, especially the first one. Doran, frankly, did a lousy job with Arianne, and he fails to acknowledge it.

Frankly, I think you can leave out the qualifier of "with Arianne" and just say "Doran did a lousy job." Be it Arianne, Quentyn, the handling of the Sand Sanks, Mrycella, the mobs of Dorne, or paying attention to the politics of Westeros, Doran keeps failing. His "fire and blood" speech is amazing but it fails to deliver because Doran miscalculates when it comes to Quentyn--a son he barely knows or understands. Though, it's interesting that Arianne seems to understand that Quentyn would have a hard time. She laughs at the idea of him being King of Westeros, and even before the truth is revealed from Doran, the princess thinks that while she is well loved in Dorne, Quentyn is barely known. Had Doran bothered to talk to Arianne instead of playing his long game, he might have realized that his daughter had some common sense that he needs.

Her conversations with Ser Arys aren't all about love and sex. The laws of the realm are more flexible than most of those in power want to admit. The rules about the Kingsguard, for example, can be changed. If the rule about celibacy were to be changed, would Arianne be willing to marry Arys? Given her general attitude about marriage, I think this is probable. More important is the matter of succession. Myrcella seems more fit to rule than Tommen. She is also the older sibling. The good of the kingdom is more important than rules which are not immutable and should not be seen as immutable. Arianne Martell knows this. She gets Arys Oakheart to see it. Most people probably know it at some level, but they refuse to acknowledge it.

That's a very good point. Doran has been doing little except sitting and thinking and keeping secrets. Arianne might have come up with an admittedly dumb plan, but it was based on an understanding of the situation that her father seems to lack.

But, in any case, what did Doran think would happen if he suddenly died (he's not well?) How could he expect Arianne to pick up the pieces?

Who knows! He has sent Quentyn overseas, he is keeping a huge secret from his daughter who in turn is conspiring against him, Trystane is young and more interested in playing board games, and all the Sand Snakes were locked up. And every single chapter he is in, GRRM drives home the point that Doran is not well.

On a side but related note, I'm starting to think that Doran is going to outlive all this children and that will be his ultimate tragedy. Quentyn's dead at the hands of a literal dragon; Arianne will marry a fake one and die at the hands of a real but metaphorical dragon. And Trystane will die because of course he will.

[MoIaF]

Arianne is the legitimate heir to Dorne. I don't see how she is a pretender.

It was in reference to her believing herself the next Nymeria.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree with BearQueen that Doran is an idiot, who has played all his cards wrong since well before the novels started. He has developed a complex which he has passed to his children. It's weird, when I read Arianne's chapters to begin with I liked her, but the more I am reading of analysis and discussion about her I like her less and less. Hopefully the Sand Snakes and Trystane will be the saving grace for the whole Martell clan.

ETA: Also, why doesnt Arianne have her own guards that go about with her, like Hotah. I mean she let herself get locked up. Cersei did the same thing when she let herself be trapped alone somewhere, this is not a good idea women. Keep some soldiers nearby at all times, and not ones that you are sleeping with.

[SeanF]

I agree with BearQueen that Doran is an idiot, who has played all his cards wrong since well before the novels started. He has developed a complex which he has passed to his children. It's weird, when I read Arianne's chapters to begin with I liked her, but the more I am reading of analysis and discussion about her I like her less and less. Hopefully the Sand Snakes and Trystane will be the saving grace for the whole Martell clan.

ETA: Also, why doesnt Arianne have her own guards that go about with her, like Hotah. I mean she let herself get locked up. Cersei did the same thing when she let herself be trapped alone somewhere, this is not a good idea women. Keep some soldiers nearby at all times, and not ones that you are sleeping with.

Why do you like her less? I think Martin likes her. If he wasn't so invested in Daenerys, she'd probably be the main heroine. But, I think he's making her up to be Dany's rival and enemy.

[MoIaF]

I think there is another parallel we can bring up between Dany and Arianne and that is trusting the wrong people, though they tend to trust different sorts of people.

We already touched on the fact that Arianne has a weakness for dangerous beautiful men. Darkstar fulfills that in her arc. Her milk brother Garin and her friend Andrey Dalt both express their reluctance to let Darkstar be part of their entourage when they take Myrcella. Even Arianne doubts if she can trust him, but rationalizes it with needing his sword. And of course, Darkstar ends up hurting Myrcella when the party is taken by Areo Hotah. And in WOW Arianne feels that he is her most grievous sin.

Dany too has a weakness for dangerous and beautiful men, but so far Daario hasn't betrayed her, so we can leave him aside for the moment. For Dany, it's the mother figures. She is too trusting of old motherly women who present themselves as kind and helpful. Mirri Maz Durr and The Green Grace, are the two examples I am thinking of. I don't think it's a stretch to say that because Dany has lacked a mother figure her whole life that she is more gullible when it comes to these women.

This is a great point, especially when it comes to Dany.

There really wasn't any type of mother figure for Dany, Ser Darry played somewhat of a father figure for a time but there really where no grown woman around her while growing up. Through MMD and the GG Dany is searching for that wise woman to help and guide her, sadly enough she has chosen two very wrong people for that. I wonder how Dany will react to the GG's betrayal, she punished MMD the way she did but that was more because of the deaths of Rhaego and the lost of Drogo, GG betrayal is a bit different.

[BearQueen87]

Why do you like her less? I think Martin likes her. If he wasn't so invested in Daenerys, she'd probably be the main heroine. But, I think he's making her up to be Dany's rival and enemy.

I think GRRM pretty much likes all his POV characters. Arianne's arc is one that also suffers from the book split. I think we're supposed to read Cersei, Dany, and Arianne together--three women all vying for power in a male dominated world where. How do they navigate that? What tools do they use? Arianne uses her sexuality as much as Cersei, but it's a sign of her liberation, not her hatred for anything that isn't Cersei Lannister as the Queen in King's Landing does. Dany does not use sex as a weapon, she has fire breathing lizards. Cersei has no actual claim to a throne or house but is determined to get her spot in the sun even if it means Tommen is shunted to one side. Arianne does have a claim to a house but thinks she is being robbed. And Dany took her throne by force and conquest. All three have super complicated relationships with their brothers--one's a lover, one's a stranger, and one's an abuser.

[XSarellaX]

I was wondering these days why I never warmed up to Arianne... Her manipulation of Arys probably played a huge part, but I think what really bothered me was the feeling that she never (at least not until the end of AFFC) learned the water gaderns lesson. She decides to play the game of thrones, but she did that thinking only about her rights. Did she ever consider the human cost of a war? What would happen if they lost?

It's different for Dany because she has seen battles before, the deaths of innocents, since Drogo decided to invade Westeros. Now, the protection of people and the cost of war are huge themes in her arc, it's a dillema she still struggles with (or maybe not, after that last chapter in Dance)

I wonder if Arianne would have thought things more throughly if she had had the opportunity to witness war, and if she would have made different choices.

BTW, I realize most lords in Westeros don't give a f* about the smallfolk, but it just doesn't change how I feel..

[BearQueen87]

I was wondering these days why I never warmed up to Arianne... Her manipulation of Arys probably played a huge part, but I think what really bothered me was the feeling that she never (at least not until the end of AFFC) learned the water gaderns lesson. She decides to play the game of thrones, but she did that thinking only about her rights. Did she ever consider the human cost of a war? What would happen if they lost?

It's different for Dany because she has seen battles before, the deaths of innocents, since Drogo decided to invade Westeros. Now, the protection of people and the cost of war are huge themes in her arc, it's a dillema she still struggles with (or maybe not, after that last chapter in Dance)

I wonder if Arianne would have thought things more throughly if she had had the opportunity to witness war, and if she would have made different choices.

BTW, I realize most lords in Westeros don't give a f* about the smallfolk, but it just doesn't change how I feel..

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Arianne has led a far more sheltered life than Dany. (Hell, most of the characters have led a far more sheltered life than Dany pre-AGOT)

Think about the way Arianne's plan unfolds in her head. She, the princess who is being robbed of her rights, sets out on a noble quest with only a handful of her most trusted friends--Garin, Dalt, Slyvia, and Darkstar (the dangerous bad boy requirement, complete with stupid catchphrase)--and her devoted lover. They think that songs will be sung of them, Arianne pictures herself as Nymeria 2.0. She will steal away with another Princess who is also being denied their rights, set up in a zone of safety, raise the banners and go to war in needs be and people will flock to her because she is well loved. It's like something out of a story.

1) 7 people set out. Really? That's it. I know large number attract more attention but just 7, one of which is a child. (Side note but any time a band of seven sets out in ASOIAF things end BADLY!)

2) Did she really think that someone wouldn't somehow get word that Arianne was planning something or wouldn't notice that Mrycella was gone or be suspicious of anything?

Dany, OTOH, spends her earliest years on the run, being told that there are hired knives out to kill her and her brother, and at her wedding watches several men die and be called sport. Dany is affected by the pain and suffering of the Lamb Men, but also know that it's the price of war. Arianne never really pauses to consider that she and her companions could possibly die or met with trouble.

[Ser Creighton]

Why do you like her less? I think Martin likes her. If he wasn't so invested in Daenerys, she'd probably be the main heroine. But, I think he's making her up to be Dany's rival and enemy.

What? I think Sansa, Arya and even Cat are all far ahead of Arianne in terms of anything close to a leading female Protagonist and probably have far more relivance to the over all story.

You know you can get on the society of planetos if you want to talk about poor education, but that is not really fair it's that time in history. Plus woman do have a harder time getting a good education in this world, it is a male dominated society. Often times in general education is up to the individual. If you take Tyrion one of the smartest people on the planet he educates himself. But in the case of education there are lots of things that require experience. If you want to understand the court of KL you are not going to be able to read about. If you want to understand the ever shifting politics of Westeros, you are not going to be able to read about, you are going to have to experience it. I can't say there is a lot of good parenting in Westeros among upper crust.

Doran, procrastinates, shelters his children, and we don't know how much time he spent with them. Quin was sent away and Arianne wasn't with him, he was ruling form the water gardens.

Tywin was smart but Jesus Christ, that is the godfather of shitty parents.

Olenna gets a lot of props, but honestly she treats her family like puppets. Mace is a putz, she raised him. She uses Marg to advance her own house, Loras got baited by Cersei and really his plan with Renly did not work that well, Garlan Seems a decent sort.

Ned and Cat seemed like Pretty good parents, but Sansa was brought up with her needles and dancing and story time. Arya is quick but god she is a baby. Bran is smart but a child, Robb was smart. They all had their own issues. Ned was smart but not in KL where he was a fish out of water.

Part of what you have to deal with with characters like Robb and Jon and Dany, is that while they are smart enough they lack a lot of experience because they are kids. Arianne is an adult she is in her 20's, and I would say Jon and Danny have more experience then her at leadership at this point.

Look at Sams dad what a tremendous asshole.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Arianne has led a far more sheltered life than Dany. (Hell, most of the characters have led a far more sheltered life than Dany pre-AGOT)

Think about the way Arianne's plan unfolds in her head. She, the princess who is being robbed of her rights, sets out on a noble quest with only a handful of her most trusted friends--Garin, Dalt, Slyvia, and Darkstar (the dangerous bad boy requirement, complete with stupid catchphrase)--and her devoted lover. They think that songs will be sung of them, Arianne pictures herself as Nymeria 2.0. She will steal away with another Princess who is also being denied their rights, set up in a zone of safety, raise the banners and go to war in needs be and people will flock to her because she is well loved. It's like something out of a story.

1) 7 people set out. Really? That's it. I know large number attract more attention but just 7, one of which is a child. (Side note but any time a band of seven sets out in ASOIAF things end BADLY!)

2) Did she really think that someone wouldn't somehow get word that Arianne was planning something or wouldn't notice that Mrycella was gone or be suspicious of anything?

Dany, OTOH, spends her earliest years on the run, being told that there are hired knives out to kill her and her brother, and at her wedding watches several men die and be called sport. Dany is affected by the pain and suffering of the Lamb Men, but also know that it's the price of war. Arianne never really pauses to consider that she and her companions could possibly die or met with trouble.

You know that is what Viserys thought too, and people have been trying to push that dream on Dany most notably Selmy and and um your Avatar. People forget she has been eouraged to go to war with Westeros by pretty much everyone. Though twice she has given up on the idea. Robert tried to kill her and her baby so she got really pissed, and so did Drogo. Then the slaver cities. Viserys, Illyrio, Selmy and the traitor all go to war, go to war.

She could of taken Quins offer, she said no.

By the way yes Arianna probably dies, though it may be at the Hands of JonCon. She is being sent to find out if FAegon is legit. I don't think anyone wants that truth getting out. Now that whole real dragon symbolic dragon thing that is called some kind of parallel but I forget it's name.

I like Arianne but you know she is a product of her father and I have no idea why he is sending her to FAegon, that just screams mistake to me, good thing he sent her ex-boyfriend with her on a spy mission. A Golden Hand by the way, yeah that screams happy ending with dragons.

The series sometimes seems like a giant practice in Murphy's law.

[BearQueen87]

What? I think Sansa, Arya and even Cat are all far ahead of Arianne in terms of anything close to a leading female Protagonist and probably have far more relivance to the over all story.

You know you can get on the society of planetos if you want to talk about poor education, but that is not really fair it's that time in history. Plus woman do have a harder time getting a good education in this world, it is a male dominated society. Often times in general education is up to the individual. If you take Tyrion one of the smartest people on the planet he educates himself. But in the case of education there are lots of things that require experience. If you want to understand the court of KL you are not going to be able to read about. If you want to understand the ever shifting politics of Westeros, you are not going to be able to read about, you are going to have to experience it. I can't say there is a lot of good parenting in Westeros among upper crust.

Doran, procrastinates, shelters his children, and we don't know how much time he spent with them. Quin was sent away and Arianne wasn't with him, he was ruling form the water gardens.

Tywin was smart but Jesus Christ, that is the godfather of shitty parents.

Olenna gets a lot of props, but honestly she treats her family like puppets. Mace is a putz, she raised him. She uses Marg to advance her own house, Loras got baited by Cersei and really his plan with Renly did not work that well, Garlan Seems a decent sort.

Ned and Cat seemed like Pretty good parents, but Sansa was brought up with her needles and dancing and story time. Arya is quick but god she is a baby. Bran is smart but a child, Robb was smart. They all had their own issues. Ned was smart but not in KL where he was a fish out of water.

Part of what you have to deal with with characters like Robb and Jon and Dany, is that while they are smart enough they lack a lot of experience because they are kids. Arianne is an adult she is in her 20's, and I would say Jon and Danny have more experience then her at leadership at this point.

Look at Sams dad what a tremendous asshole.

You know that is what Viserys thought too, and people have been trying to push that dream on Dany most notably Selmy and and um your Avatar. People forget she has been eouraged to go to war with Westeros by pretty much everyone. Though twice she has given up on the idea. Robert tried to kill her and her baby so she got really pissed, and so did Drogo. Then the slaver cities. Viserys, Illyrio, Selmy and the traitor all go to war, go to war.

They tell her to go to Westeros and wage war. They do not tell her it's going to be easy. Jorah's the one who tells her to go to SB first for an army, not go straight to Illyrio. (And before that, he said to go to Asshai)

Never did any of them try to make it out like it would be easy or "romantic" and I'm pretty sure neither of them said to only go with a handful of men. And Jorah begins to break her out of that notion that people will wave banners and sing her praises with his "the common people pray for..." speech.

And third, people encourage her, but it was also HER dream. "I dream of home too..." and she sees in her head, her imagined version of Westeros.

And fourth, she doesn't "give up" on the idea, she decides she can't abandon the people she just liberated. She still thinks that she is going to go to Westeros at some point. She seriously debates if she should take Xaro's ships but feels that she has a duty to stay behind in Meereen.

She could of taken Quins offer, she said no.

Sure, because 1) she was engaged to someone else 2) because that engagement meant a sort of peace and 3) Quentyn's offer is honestly not that great. It really isn't. "I can give you Dorne!" Um...yay? One kingdom out of how many again?

I like Arianne but you know she is a product of her father and I have no idea why he is sending her to FAegon, that just screams mistake to me, good thing he sent her ex-boyfriend with her on a spy mission. A Golden Hand by the way, yeah that screams happy ending with dragons.

Doran makes a mistake with his child. I am awash in shock and surprise.