The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[XSarellaX]

I think Dany is much more comfortable with being a woman and embrancing feminility - and I don't mean being girly, whatever that means, just doing things like dressing up because she wants to feel pretty sometimes, or whatever - than Arya, because Dany didn't grow up around a sister who was considered more beautiful and talented than she was.

Yes, Viserys didn't exactly do a lot to build Dany's self steem, but he diminished her as a person, not especifically as a woman. Also, Dany had a relationship with a man that very clearly desired her. All in all, she is more confident in that role.

Arya, OTOH, feels very insecure about her looks, etc. Even though she's clearly a tomboy, in the beggining of AGOT it's easy to notice she whishes she was prettier, feels Sansa is favoured over her because she is a proper lady (i.e. she gets to sit beside Joffrey, the handsome prince, instead of Tommen, the fat one), and therefore feels she is worse at being a girl.

I'm focusing on the appearance thing, because Dany is considered more "girly" than Arya because she is a little bit more worried about her looks, but why would Arya care too much about that when she feels she is ugly anyway, and doesn't really think she's going to get much better? If Dany puts on a nice tokar, she knows she'll look amazing, so she has more reasons to dress well.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

In short; Dany has sexuality and Arya does not really. Even though Arya is only what?? Less than 2 years younger than Dany? She is almost 13. Also to go on top of what BQ was saying; Dany is a threat to the male leads and Arya is not. Dany is very openly becoming a queen, most of the world has heard of her and her dragons at this point, well Arya is completely the opposite. The world supposes her dead, and she is secretly training to become a faceless assassin in a secret order. She has kept up the facade of being no one, of being unimportant, she hasn't even had that many chapters lately. This all comes along with the ninja lifestyle as opposed to being a conquering queen.

[BearQueen87]

I think Dany is much more comfortable with being a woman and embrancing feminility - and I don't mean being girly, whatever that means, just doing things like dressing up because she wants to feel pretty sometimes, or whatever - than Arya, because Dany didn't grow up around a sister who was considered more beautiful and talented than she was

Well, Dany is also not a virgin girl. She might be very young, but she's also a very sexually mature woman (contradictions, thy name is Daenerys Targaryen) and moreover her own personal power was drawn from sex and motherhood, two things that are tied to femininity, the last exclusively so. Arya has yet to undergo that, though Annara is right that the WOW chapter we got might be the start of some sort of sexual awakening for Arya--albeit a much more violent one.

As far as her feeling pretty, I do get what you're saying but there is only one time I personally can think of when she thinks she needs to make herself look beautiful (which is a bit of a ludercrious statement coming from the person who is supposed to be the most beautiful woman in the world) and that's when Daario returns in ADWD. She thinks "I must make myself beautiful for Daario." Otherwise, when given the choice, when she wants to display her own personal power or be true to herself, she wears Dothraki riding clothes: like when she is at her most content in Dany III (AGOT) or when she takes Astapor, she dons the Dothraki leather pants and vests (and it's the clothing she is reaching for on Balerion before Jorah kisses her, after she's made up her mind to go to Astapor). She hates the tokar and there is that glorious moment when she rips it off in ADWD. The only other staple of Dany-wear is the lion pelt and that is wrapped up in memories of Drogo, which obviously has heavy Dothraki implications.

Arya, on the other hand, has literal costume changes. I feel like I keep teasing my future essays (sorry if that's annoying) but in Essay #3, I talk a lot about Arya many personas and how it's like an actress donning new roles, complete with a new wardrobe or hairstyle/makeup and the acting style would be one of immersion. Dany only has one "costume change" and it when she removes the tokar to become the real Dragon Queen again. And if she does wear something other than the Dothraki clothing or the pelt--like when she is in the Plaza of Astapor for the first time--she recognizes that her costume for that moment is part of a folly of deception whereas Arya almost becomes an entirely new entity and "Arya Stark" is no more.

[Annara Snow]

In short; Dany has sexuality and Arya does not really. Even though Arya is only what?? Less than 2 years younger than Dany? She is almost 13. Also to go on top of what BQ was saying; Dany is a threat to the male leads and Arya is not. Dany is very openly becoming a queen, most of the world has heard of her and her dragons at this point, well Arya is completely the opposite. The world supposes her dead, and she is secretly training to become a faceless assassin in a secret order. She has kept up the facade of being no one, of being unimportant, she hasn't even had that many chapters lately. This all comes along with the ninja lifestyle as opposed to being a conquering queen.

Arya is still 11 at the end of ADWD (and still hasn't had her first period, as per "Mercy"). Only about two years have passed since the beginning of the series. She's two years younger than Sansa, and Sansa is still 13 in AFFC.

And what makes Dany "girly" is my next issue. Her happiest time in AGOT she is described as oiled, messy, dirty feet, wearing leather pants and a vest like a male rider. Yes, Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world according to text but that in and of itself doesn't mean she's "girly" with the connotation of airy, dimwitted, giggly. Like (if you're America) a Valley High stereotypes.

And with Arya, I think it's important to bear in mind that just because we see Arya reject the feminine tropes a lot--dresses, sewing, giggling over boys--that Arya is coming into her own looks to the point where the Kindly Man is saying that men will fight over the right to have her first, and has what might be a future romantic relationship with Gendry.

I think when people use the world "girly" it's trying to say that women need to be a certain thing and I think that Arya and Dany are both blowing holes in the idea of what it means to be feminine.

But Arya is also beautiful (again, see what the Kindly Man has to say about setting her up in Braavos), she likes guys (Gendry), though the way she expresses that is younger than say, the way Dany likes Daario, and occasionally wears dresses (even if they are forced on her).

I agree that Arya is rejecting some of the more feminine aspects--specifically the notion of life-giving which Dany tends to embody in some regards (another part of Essay # 2 coming on Sunday...)--but the idea that Dany is "girly" makes her sound like....Paris Hilton, or something. As if Dany doesn't also reject some idea of what we construct as "being female." For example, find me a Disney Princess or stereotypical cheerleader who crucifies 163 people. Dany is much more Buffy than she is Cordelia (pre-Angel spin off...)

But why should we associate "girly" with being an airhead, dimwitted, etc.? Do we associate "boyish" with, I don't know, the stereotype of the dimwitted boy who just likes to watch explosions and boobs?

Buffy was always unapologetically "girly" - she was into fashion, shopping, boys/men and romance, she looked pretty and dressed in a feminine way - and also kicked ass all the time, and was tough, brave, smart, witty, cheeky, heroic, and also very physical and athletic and an action girl. She was an example of how difficult it is to make a distinction between a "tomboy" and a "girly girl".

There re certainly parallels between Buffy and Dany, though there are also pretty big differences; one of them is their background - pre-Slayer Buffy was portrayed as a more or less typical "valley girl" and was pretty popular and well-adjusted before her "destiny" came calling (and wrecked her life in some ways, which gave her a pretty conflicted attitude to her Slayer role). Dany was at the beginning a shy. insecure girl used to being mistreated, who grows into an immensely powerful woman (through magic!) - that part is more like Willow (though they otherwise have little in common).

I don't see any similarities between Dany and Faith.

Incidentally, the Buffyverse character who was the embodiment of the "dimwitted, giggly, airheaded" valley girl stereotype was Harmony. Cordelia was initially more of a Queen Bitch/Mean Girl character, and the portrayal of her intelligence on BtVS would vary depending on the episode. But Cordelia was always proud (and vain) and felt like someone who would stand up for herself (even though she was often made into a damsel in early episodes, so Buffy could save her) - Harmony less so.

off-topic: BearQueen, you're a Buffy fan and a Leonard Cohen fan? :bowdown:

[Annara Snow]

He has. It's here in minute 2:18.

He has definitely said at one point that Tyrion was his favorite, followed by Dany. But I think that has slowly changed to Dany and Arya. Ill try to find the SSM

Edit: Ninja'd by MOIAf :ninja:

Thanks, MOIAF. I haven't seen that interview before.

He doesn't actually say Dany is definitely his second favorite, more like he's unsure who he'd call his second favorite and says it may be Arya or Dany:

"Eh... Maybe Arya or Dany. I have a soft spot for Sam. I like them all, you know... Jon Snow, Davos... The viewpoint characters especially."

I was thinking mainly of the two recent times he talked about his favorite characters - both times he said, Tyrion is his favorite as everyone already knows, but he also loves [insert a few POV characters, starting with Arya] and all his POV characters, even [insert some POVs who are... less obviously likable] :

From this interview (video is on livestream) :

Who is your favorite character from Game of Thrones, and why?

Tyrion, because he is the wittiest. But you know I like them all, come on, I like Arya, and Dany, and Sansa, and even Theon, and Victarion, the dolt. You know, I have to love them to write about them, some of them are flawed, and some of them are screwed up, a lot of them are in trouble but, they’re my kids… probably the only ones I’m ever likely to have.

From this post on his blog:

(Tyrion is my favorite character. Okay? OKAY? Can we PLEASE put that one to rest?? I love all my viewpoint characters, Arya and Sansa and Bran, Jon Snow and Brienne, Arianne and Cersei and Jaime, Theon, even Victarion and the Damphair, ALL of them, but I love Tyrion the bestest. Tyrion son of Tywin, the Imp, second son of Casterly Rock. How many bloody times do I need to say it?? I swear, from now on, whenever anybody asks me, "who is you favorite character," I am going to start naming characters from other people's books. Cugel the Clever. Flashman. Gatsby. Hotspur. Solomon Kane. A different one each time... )

So I'd say he isn't sure who his second favorite is, though it seems like Arya is the closest to it since he always mentions her second, but Dany is up there among his favorites.

[BearQueen87]

But why should we associate "girly" with being an airhead, dimwitted, etc.? Do we associate "boyish" with, I don't know, the stereotype of the dimwitted boy who just likes to watch explosions and boobs?

I think there is a difference between "should we" and "do we." Maybe this is just me, in which case the association is totally on me, but when I hear the world "girly" I do think of the mall hopping, omg-Becky, bubble gum popping Valley Girl girls. "Boyish" I think goes across the board to both genders. A girl gets called boyish if she looks a certain way or dresses a certain way or acts a certain way, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Arya gets called a tomboy and it's a compliment, but when we call a boy "girly" it's generally done in derision and the idea that he needs to "man" up. There's something...negative...about "girly."

Buffy was always unapologetically "girly" - she was into fashion, shopping, boys/men and romance, she looked pretty and dressed in a feminine way - and also kicked ass all the time, and was tough, brave, smart, witty, cheeky, heroic, and also very physical and athletic and an action girl. She was an example of how difficult it is to make a distinction between a "tomboy" and a "girly girl".

There re certainly parallels between Buffy and Dany, though there are also pretty big differences; one of them is their background - pre-Slayer Buffy was portrayed as a more or less typical "valley girl" and was pretty popular and well-adjusted before her "destiny" came calling (and wrecked her life in some ways, which gave her a pretty conflicted attitude to her Slayer role). Dany was at the beginning a shy. insecure girl used to being mistreated, who grows into an immensely powerful woman (through magic!) - that part is more like Willow (though they otherwise have little in common).

Certainly. And Buffy pre-Slayer (movie or the S2 episode where you saw her briefly sucking on a lollipop before her first Watcher shows up) is the very stereotypical girly girl. I think, she tends toward the more action girl-vibe as the series continues, especially when she comes back from the dead (either time, lol...take your pick!). In season one it's very apparent that she still wants to be just be that normal teen girl she once was (the entire episode about her wanting to be a cheerleader and Giles reading her the riot act about duty and prophecy comes to mind).

You're right, Harmony would have been a better character to use there.

I should tie this back into Dany somehow so it's not suddenly a Buffy thread. :blushing:

Season 6 Buffy is my favorite Buffy. And the writers did this super clever thing where they opened the season with Buffy climbing out from her grave, and ended the season with Buffy climbing out of the grave again, but the big difference is her attitude. First time, she was ripped from heaven and pretty much descends into self abuse and self-loathing. Not unlike ADWD-Dany who thinks about how alone she is, how she can't trust anyone, how she's losing her hold in Meereen, having to put on a show in a Tokar (life's a show, and we all play a part, and when the music staaaarts...). If only she made questionable relationship decisions because of her emotional inner turmoil and how upsetting her life is becoming! Oh hey, Daario. What are you doing here?

But season 6 of Buffy ends with a more resolute Buffy. One who doesn't want to die, one who wants to keep on fighting and has found something worth fighting for. And that leads to season 7 with a more resolute Buffy who, yes, still struggles with what she must do, but is more comfortable in her own skin. And that's WOW Dany. Someone who has remembered her house words, remembered who she is--as Vision! Jorah tells her--and is taking her walk of Triumph back to Meereen.

off-topic: BearQueen, you're a Buffy fan and a Leonard Cohen fan? :bowdown:

:cheers:

[Annara Snow]

Season 6 Buffy is my favorite Buffy.

And just as I thought you couldn't get more awesome... :thumbsup: :cheers:

[Ellfoy]

Hi everyone ! *waves*

BearQueen, that was an amazing essay !

I really liked the introduction part with the comparison between the relationship Viserys/Dany and Jon/Arya. I do agree with you that GRRM must as written this as an inversed parallel.

On the "loss" part, well I would never have thought to compare Syrio and Jorah but It was interesting (admit it, you wanted to talk about your bear, right ? :P ). I think that the loss of the family is a very important theme that share Dany and any Stark.

The "making your own pack" was great as well.

On the Dany hate debate, I think that this is essentially the result of ADWD. I know a lot of fans who used to love or like her but were so disappointed with her in ADWD that they started to be very angry and to dislike her. I, myself liked Dany quite a lot before reading ADWD and was very disappointed by Dany in the book. It took some time and distance to reconcile myself with her.

Ser Creighton,

I loved your post with the blood of my blood meaning that the Staks are blood of Dany's blood (Jon). I'm on the team that thinks that the Starks and Targs (well, Dany) are kind of going to team up instead of fighting someday and that we will have a pact of ice and fire (without the marriage thing... or maybe with it :dunno: ). I agree with you that the books could end with the restoration of both houses (well, I hope so).

I think that we are going to see with this project that Dany and the Starks children have a lot in common. Dany may be all like "usurpers dogs" but one of her main quality is empathy and she's going to realise that the living Starks are just kids who were born after the rebellion and whose family and house were destroyed just like hers.

[BearQueen87]

Hi everyone ! *waves*

BearQueen, that was an amazing essay !

Hi! And thanks!

On the "loss" part, well I would never have thought to compare Syrio and Jorah but It was interesting (admit it, you wanted to talk about your bear, right ? :P )

What? Me? Talk about Jorah? Never. :leaving:

On the Dany hate debate, I think that this is essentially the result of ADWD. I know a lot of fans who used to love or like her but were so disappointed with her in ADWD that they started to be very angry and to dislike her. I, myself liked Dany quite a lot before reading ADWD and was very disappointed by Dany in the book. It took some time and distance to reconcile myself with her.

Dany made a lot of mistakes in ADWD. Even those of use who love her and defend her acknowledge that there were things she should have done differently or not at all. The big difference I think between the haters and the lovers is that the haters cast these actions as the work of a Mad Queen, a hypocrite, a child with delusions of grander and reasons why Dany should never be allowed near a throne ever again. The lovers acknowledge that she did wrong, but cast it as her humanity, own self doubt and self-consciousness coming out and that fundamentally changing the world does not come with a handy how-to guide.

Dany may be all like "usurpers dogs" but one of her main quality is empathy and she's going to realise that the living Starks are just kids who were born after the rebellion and whose family and house were destroyed just like hers.

Right. Agreed. And when she does meet Arya that empathy will come out very strongly, I feel. Here's a girl who is not too much younger than Dany was at the start of AGOT who has lost her family (like Dany), had to fight her way through a world that tries to kill her quite often (like Dany), who has some blood--literal and metaphorical--on her hands (like Dany), who has special animal-realated dreams (like Dany) and who has had her childhood interrupted (like Dany).

They may never be best friends, but I think Arya will admire Dany. She did name her wolf pup Nymeria and here comes Nymeria 2.0 across the Narrow Sea....

[Ellfoy]

Dany made a lot of mistakes in ADWD. Even those of use who love her and defend her acknowledge that there were things she should have done differently or not at all. The big difference I think between the haters and the lovers is that the haters cast these actions as the work of a Mad Queen, a hypocrite, a child with delusions of grander and reasons why Dany should never be allowed near a throne ever again. The lovers acknowledge that she did wrong, but cast it as her humanity, own self doubt and self-consciousness coming out and that fundamentally changing the world does not come with a handy how-to guide.

Well, I'm not a Dany hater, nor a Dany lover. I like her but sometimes she annoys me a lot. She is a very interesting and controversial character though. And making mistakes is human, the thing is to learn from them.

I was too atonished the other day when i saw comments on a thread like "Val is thrice the woman that Dany could never hope to be". We barely have seen Val in a book and she just fits the role of Jon's Daario !

Right. Agreed. And when she does meet Arya that empathy will come out very strongly, I feel. Here's a girl who is not too much younger than Dany was at the start of AGOT who has lost her family (like Dany), had to fight her way through a world that tries to kill her quite often (like Dany), who has some blood--literal and metaphorical--on her hands (like Dany), who has special animal-realated dreams (like Dany) and who has had her childhood interrupted (like Dany).

They may never be best friends, but I think Arya will admire Dany. She did name her wolf pup Nymeria and here comes Nymeria 2.0 across the Narrow Sea....

:cheers: # Team Starks and Targaryens team up !

[XSarellaX]

Sure, I get that. But isn't one of the thing that is constantly thrown around this forum at large is that GRRM is not writing "traditional" fantasy? He's taking those ideas and subverting them to degrees depending on the trope. So Dany doing some of the things she does might not be traditional "hero," but I don't think it makes her any less of a hero in GRRM's eyes. There's an interview with GRRM (actually, I think you linked it to all of us over in Dany Re-Read) where he says that his idea of a hero is someone who can do something terrible on Monday and something great on Tuesday. A hero isn't someone who puts on their cape every single day and does "all the good!" all the time. That's GRRM's own problem with traditional fantasy. Dany might be written as a controversial and disturbing character, but I would argue so is Arya. She is a nine year old who draws strength and power from killing and having blood on her hands. Yet you never get the sheer volume of hatred toward her that you do for Dany.

And then there is the whole contradiction between portrayals of Dany. Either she's a mad bad bitch who is closer to Satan than any other character in ASOIAF OR she's a Disney Princess/Mary Sue who has plot armor and plot gifts. And, I love Arya to death, but there is no realistic way she should have survived the Riverlands without GRRM's plot armor. She would have been raped, tortured, mutilated, and killed many times over (but point this out to people and the answer is, "yes but Arya is clever" and I won't deny that Arya is a smart cookie, but she was also held captive by the Mountain, the same guy who raped a 13 yr old tavern girl in front of her father because the father protested Gregor's knight touching his daughter. And still Arya went untouched for her entire stay with the Mountain AND at HH). And maybe she doesn't have her direwolf, but she does have Jaqen H'gar who literally pops out of nowhere to do the work of a god and protect Arya and make her brave again. Or the Kindly Man who doesn't throw her out on her ass despite the fact that she keeps breaking his rules.

So when I see all these contradictions--Dany is mad and bad but also a boring Mary Sue--I tend to think that there is another reason underneath all the hatred. To be perfectly honest, I think Annara said it best: "could also end up as a hero/messiah figure, all of which is seen as a threat to the role of favorite male character, be it Jon or Stannis" And to go back to what MOAIF said, is that also the reason that people like Val more than Dany? Val fits the "traditional" fantasy female character: she's big breasted, beautiful, blonde, she gets in a few quips and the most heroic thing she does is going to find Torrmund, another fan favorite. That's...it. That's all she does. I, frankly, find her boring and keep waiting for her do something more exciting or come up with tinfoil hat theories about how she might be an Ice Priestess because otherwise what is the point of Val outside of "pretty girl" who just has to get with the hero Jon Snow because "hero deserve a pretty girl."

Okay, I'm rambling at this point. So I'll leave it at this.....I agree that Dany is controversial, but so is Arya. And I think that's what GRRM wants. He wants us to have the kind of serious (non yelling) conversations we have about them because he is trying to get us to re-think our images of heroes and femininity.

I don't think the Dany hatred is just because she could possibly obscure other fan favorites.. I think it's more about unfulfilled expectations. She was built up as this badass dragon queen who fights for the opressed, etc etc, but them she crucifies people, gets stuck in Mereen, and from then on has to make so many concessions we can't help but feel frustrated. The DwD chapters are hard to read. It's easy to blame Dany.

We're humans, and we don't like failures. We want our desires to come true, we don't want to make concessions. That's why it's so hard to read the mereenese plot, especially when Dany was supposed to continue being the badass messiah.

Meanwhile, we didn't get as many Arya chapters in these last two books, and while some people might think her chapters in Bravos aren't that great (I disagree!), they aren't nearly as frustrating as Dany's, so it's way easier to remain invested in her story.

[Ellfoy]

I don't think the Dany hatred is just because she could possibly obscure other fan favorites.. I think it's more about unfulfilled expectations. She was built up as this badass dragon queen who fights for the opressed, etc etc, but them she crucifies people, gets stuck in Mereen, and from then on has to make so many concessions we can't help but feel frustrated. The DwD chapters are hard to read. It's easy to blame Dany.

We're humans, and we don't like failures. We want our desires to come true, we don't want to make concessions. That's why it's so hard to read the mereenese plot, especially when Dany was supposed to continue being the badass messiah.

Meanwhile, we didn't get as many Arya chapters in these last two books, and while some people might think her chapters in Bravos aren't that great (I disagree!), they aren't nearly as frustrating as Dany's, so it's way easier to remain invested in her story.

:agree: Well maybe not about the "badass dragon queen". I don't like Dany because of her dragons.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think the Dany hatred is just because she could possibly obscure other fan favorites.. I think it's more about unfulfilled expectations. She was built up as this badass dragon queen who fights for the opressed, etc etc, but them she crucifies people, gets stuck in Mereen, and from then on has to make so many concessions we can't help but feel frustrated. The DwD chapters are hard to read. It's easy to blame Dany.

What's the definition of badass dragon queen, then? Not trying to be difficult, promise! Because if "badass dragon queen" = fighting for the oppressed then what was 1) crucifying the slavers (who killed children and would gladly put all the ex-slaves back into chains) and 2) getting stuck in Meereen which was to prevent a return to slavery and also why she didn't leave Meereen when Xaro shows up to offer her ships? Both instances, for me, are fighting for the oppressed.

Now, the concessions, I'll grant to a degree. Though I think that some of those concessions are part and parcel of being a monarch. No King can have his way all the time (or if they do we call them Tyrants and tend to overthrow them).

We're humans, and we don't like failures. We want our desires to come true, we don't want to make concessions. That's why it's so hard to read the mereenese plot, especially when Dany was supposed to continue being the badass messiah.

Right, I agree. I just think that we have different definitions of what it means to be a badass messiah/dragon queen. Which is totally fine :) I don't find the Meereense plot difficult except in a few cases. I pretty much threw my book across the room when she married Hizzy because it seemed obvious that he was working for the Hapry BUT again, that's part of being a monarch. Robert, Cersei, Rhaegar, ect ect ect were forced to marry people they didn't want to because "heavy is the head that wears the crown" as the saying goes. Robb Stark chose love and it did not end well for him. The really difficult case, for me, was watching Dany lose herself after she chained her dragons. But then my Silver Queen jumped on the back of a dragon and flew and I did a very literal happy dance.

Meanwhile, we didn't get as many Arya chapters in these last two books, and while some people might think her chapters in Bravos aren't that great (I disagree!), they aren't nearly as frustrating as Dany's, so it's way easier to remain invested in her story.

Ah, I don't get that criticism from some people at all! "Cat of the Canals" is probably my favorite chapter in AFFC. Brilliant work from GRRM there. I loved Arya's journey in Braavos. But I also think it's not as frustrating because Arya isn't ruling as Queen. She's living in a temple, cared for, with no one opposing her. Dany, on the other hand, has to deal with the Sons of the Harpy. Imagine life for Arya and the kind of decisions Arya would have to make if the Kindly Man didn't take her in; if she was forced to live on the streets, a foreigner who speaks little to no Braavosi, where there are pirates and gangs and whores who might gun for a little girl all alone. What kind of choices would Arya make then?

[Mladen]

In the past two years on this board, I have seen so little of true "we hate Dany because she is a woman" hatred. So little. This was actually argument brought by illiterate defenders who couldn't have handled some arguments. When you compare the hatred characters on one hand Sansa and/or Catelyn got and on another Dany, you would see that first two characters indeed are/were hatred because they are women, but hate towards Daenerys varies and it is entire spectrum of reasons. From moral grey area, to her making some choices that are completely wrong, her political unpreparedness, entitlement etc. I simply don't see "she is woman" as much as a lot of other reasons. That is why M word is being so ridiculed on the board. I remember back in 2012 when we couldn't have Dany thread without pulling that card.

Now, the answer why Arya is more likable than Daenerys is easily answered and many touched on the subject. We sympathize with Arya because she is the kid that suffered such terrible traumas, while Dany surpassed the point where we would necessarily sympathize with her. Dany surpassed the victim status Arya still holds that status. Hence why Arya has more sympathizers in that area than Dany. Not because of some "Dany challenges male heroes" reasons... Or at least, it is far from main reasons, collectively speaking.

[MoIaF]

Thanks, MOIAF. I haven't seen that interview before.

He doesn't actually say Dany is definitely his second favorite, more like he's unsure who he'd call his second favorite and says it may be Arya or Dany:

"Eh... Maybe Arya or Dany. I have a soft spot for Sam. I like them all, you know... Jon Snow, Davos... The viewpoint characters especially."

I was thinking mainly of the two recent times he talked about his favorite characters - both times he said, Tyrion is his favorite as everyone already knows, but he also loves [insert a few POV characters, starting with Arya] and all his POV characters, even [insert some POVs who are... less obviously likable] :

From this interview (video is on livestream) :

Who is your favorite character from Game of Thrones, and why?

Tyrion, because he is the wittiest. But you know I like them all, come on, I like Arya, and Dany, and Sansa, and even Theon, and Victarion, the dolt. You know, I have to love them to write about them, some of them are flawed, and some of them are screwed up, a lot of them are in trouble but, theyre my kids probably the only ones Im ever likely to have.

From this post on his blog:

(Tyrion is my favorite character. Okay? OKAY? Can we PLEASE put that one to rest?? I love all my viewpoint characters, Arya and Sansa and Bran, Jon Snow and Brienne, Arianne and Cersei and Jaime, Theon, even Victarion and the Damphair, ALL of them, but I love Tyrion the bestest. Tyrion son of Tywin, the Imp, second son of Casterly Rock. How many bloody times do I need to say it?? I swear, from now on, whenever anybody asks me, "who is you favorite character," I am going to start naming characters from other people's books. Cugel the Clever. Flashman. Gatsby. Hotspur. Solomon Kane. A different one each time... )

So I'd say he isn't sure who his second favorite is, though it seems like Arya is the closest to it since he always mentions her second, but Dany is up there among his favorites.

While he's is being ambiguis he does differential from his second favorite character and the rest in the video I provided. He says Arya or Dany are his second favorite characters but he has a soft spot for blah! blah! bah. It's a different category.

However, overall yes I agree with you, he's unsure who his second favorite character is, although Arya does most often come to mind first.

In the past two years on this board, I have seen so little of true "we hate Dany because she is a woman" hatred. So little. This was actually argument brought by illiterate defenders who couldn't have handled some arguments. When you compare the hatred characters on one hand Sansa and/or Catelyn got and on another Dany, you would see that first two characters indeed are/were hatred because they are women, but hate towards Daenerys varies and it is entire spectrum of reasons. From moral grey area, to her making some choices that are completely wrong, her political unpreparedness, entitlement etc. I simply don't see "she is woman" as much as a lot of other reasons. That is why M word is being so ridiculed on the board. I remember back in 2012 when we couldn't have Dany thread without pulling that card.

Now, the answer why Arya is more likable than Daenerys is easily answered and many touched on the subject. We sympathize with Arya because she is the kid that suffered such terrible traumas, while Dany surpassed the point where we would necessarily sympathize with her. Dany surpassed the victim status Arya still holds that status. Hence why Arya has more sympathizers in that area than Dany. Not because of some "Dany challenges male heroes" reasons... Or at least, it is far from main reasons, collectively speaking.

While I don't believe the majority of hatred directed toward Dany is based on her sex I have to disagree with the bolded part.

I've gotten in more arguments and discussions about Dany than I care to remember and a good number of them are based on fan fears that she might take what belong to what should be for [insert male character Jon or Stannis].

When I first started here the vitriol that would come from self-indentified "StanStans" for example was very shocking. I'm not going to name names but I few of them are not allowed to post here anymore.

How many Azor Ahai threads are there every month? What are they all boil down to, that Jon is AAR so Dany just can't be it. What about the three head of the dragons? How many times I've seen people argue that it means one person and that person is Jon. How does that make any sense whatsoever? Dany is the Mother of Dragon, if it just meant one person it would be her. These are just example but there are so many of them and a lot of them quite frankly defy logic.

[SeanF]

In the past two years on this board, I have seen so little of true "we hate Dany because she is a woman" hatred. So little. This was actually argument brought by illiterate defenders who couldn't have handled some arguments. When you compare the hatred characters on one hand Sansa and/or Catelyn got and on another Dany, you would see that first two characters indeed are/were hatred because they are women, but hate towards Daenerys varies and it is entire spectrum of reasons. From moral grey area, to her making some choices that are completely wrong, her political unpreparedness, entitlement etc. I simply don't see "she is woman" as much as a lot of other reasons. That is why M word is being so ridiculed on the board. I remember back in 2012 when we couldn't have Dany thread without pulling that card.

Now, the answer why Arya is more likable than Daenerys is easily answered and many touched on the subject. We sympathize with Arya because she is the kid that suffered such terrible traumas, while Dany

surpassed the point where we would necessarily sympathize with her. Dany surpassed the victim status Arya still holds that status. Hence why Arya has more sympathizers in that area than Dany. Not because of some "Dany challenges male heroes" reasons... Or at least, it is far from main reasons, collectively speaking.

When I started here, (in 2011) I did notice some abuse of Dany along the lines that she was a "slut", "whore", "skank" as well as criticising her sex life in pretty crude terms. My impression is that is less common now. In any case, serious critics of her don't use such terms, and don't focus much on her sex life, which is not relevant to her leadership skills.

[Annara Snow]

In the past two years on this board, I have seen so little of true "we hate Dany because she is a woman" hatred. So little. This was actually argument brought by illiterate defenders who couldn't have handled some arguments. When you compare the hatred characters on one hand Sansa and/or Catelyn got and on another Dany, you would see that first two characters indeed are/were hatred because they are women, but hate towards Daenerys varies and it is entire spectrum of reasons. From moral grey area, to her making some choices that are completely wrong, her political unpreparedness, entitlement etc. I simply don't see "she is woman" as much as a lot of other reasons. That is why M word is being so ridiculed on the board. I remember back in 2012 when we couldn't have Dany thread without pulling that card.

No one is ever going to say: "I hate Dany because she's a woman". No one says "I hate Catelyn because she's a woman" or "I hate Sansa because she's a woman" or "I hate [insert some other female character] because she's a woman".

People usually aren't aware of their own prejudices, and even if they were, they wouldn't admit them. It's only when you notice that 1) their arguments are inherently sexist, or 2) they tend to judge female characters very differently and much more harshly for some things than the male characters who do very similar things or have very similar traits. Examples of 1) would be things like, how dare Sansa refuse to have sex with Tyrion, or how dare Dany reject this or that dude and prefer this or that dude; or even more obviously, calling females sluts and whores etc; examples of 2) include all the times when Dany is called mad or evil or "entitled" (an extremely silly criticism against an individual member of the noble class in a world like Westeros where all nobility is "entitled") for the behaviors or traits those same fans don't mind or even like in Stannis. The irony of Stannis fans ranting against Dany for being harsh against her enemies and seeing things in black-and-white terms, or calling her "entitled" for thinking she deserves the Iron Throne, is something that never ceases to amuse me. You could also include all the times female characters like Dany or Sansa are called "shallow" for being drawn to physically attractive men or not being attracted to (specific) ugly men (even if they have few or no other reasons to want to be in a relationship with them anyway), as opposed to all the male characters who are rarely ever criticized for the same thing.

Sure, sometimes people use the "it's all because of sexism/misogyny" card even when it makes little sense; like a Cersei fan on Tumblr who recently claimed that people who like Jamie or Theon more than Cersei should "admit" to themselves that it's because of their misogyny :blink: (I'm sure it has nothing to do with Cersei having committed so many more heinous crimes in comparison and feeling no remorse about it...) But that doesn't mean that there often isn't a lot of sexism in the reasons for the hatred of female characters in the fandom.

Of course, gender is not the only way people can be prejudiced: there's also, for instance, a phenomenon of fans hating the characters who are seen as heroic or good for having flaws, while adoring villainous characters who have similar flaws only up to 11th; like one fan on this forum who had a huge rant once about how much he/she hated Catelyn for her attitude towards Jon. Said poster is a big fan of Cersei! Apparently, being cold to your husband's bastard is much worse than having all your husband's bastard children murdered.

[BearQueen87]

In the past two years on this board, I have seen so little of true "we hate Dany because she is a woman" hatred. So little. This was actually argument brought by illiterate defenders who couldn't have handled some arguments. When you compare the hatred characters on one hand Sansa and/or Catelyn got and on another Dany, you would see that first two characters indeed are/were hatred because they are women, but hate towards Daenerys varies and it is entire spectrum of reasons. From moral grey area, to her making some choices that are completely wrong, her political unpreparedness, entitlement etc. I simply don't see "she is woman" as much as a lot of other reasons. That is why M word is being so ridiculed on the board. I remember back in 2012 when we couldn't have Dany thread without pulling that card.

Certainly no one ever uses that reason for their hatred. But I think it also boils down to the idea that the hero (any of them) shouldn't be doing "these things" because what does that say about heroism? That may ultimately be what GRRM is getting at.

Now, the answer why Arya is more likable than Daenerys is easily answered and many touched on the subject. We sympathize with Arya because she is the kid that suffered such terrible traumas, while Dany surpassed the point where we would necessarily sympathize with her. Dany surpassed the victim status Arya still holds that status. Hence why Arya has more sympathizers in that area than Dany. Not because of some "Dany challenges male heroes" reasons... Or at least, it is far from main reasons, collectively speaking.

FWIW, I think they are both still victims; Dany might be less of a victim of hunger, poverty, abuse ect. But she is still an emotional mess, someone who believes no one can ever love her, the real her. That's pretty sympathetic to me.

When I started here, (in 2011) I did notice some abuse of Dany along the lines that she was a "slut", "whore", "skank" as well as criticising her sex life in pretty crude terms. My impression is that is less common now. In any case, serious critics of her don't use such terms, and don't focus much on her sex life, which is not relevant to her leadership skills.

I haven't been on this board all that long (almost 7 months!) and I don't notice that specifically, but I think the general feeling lurks beneath the surface. But not for everyone. There are some serious critics of Dany who do have a very astute, non-gendered reading of her and I've seen some of those same critics fight other Dany critics who do try criticize for being too sexual or a woman, ect. But there are some things I read that boil down to "Jon is the one and only hero of this series, Dany can't have any part of it because big bad scary mad Dany" As if Dany being a hero alongside Jon somehow diminishes his ability to be a hero too.

And I did have a conversation with someone one time, albeit a brief one, in which he said that Dany was hyper sexual and, basically, a whore.

And it might boil down to, like I said above, what are our expectations of heroism? And is GRRM deliberately trying to smash those into a thousand tiny pieces? Jon is a hero of ASOIAF. Never would I deny that (and I do love Jon Snow) but it does feel like I'm being told from a lot of sides that if I like Dany and consider her a hero that either 1) I can't like Jon 2) I do improper readings or 3) I only like Dany because she is a woman and so am I (that I do see quite more frequently) That last one baffles me as Cersei is my least favorite POV character in the series.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I may one of the only readers who actually found Dany's ADwD chapters humanizing and relatable. I have no idea what that says about my character and life experiences.

Going back to your original post, BQ, I do feel as if Dany and Arya are both on individual journeys that lead to both girls feeling lonely and isolated. The difference is that Arya's solo journey is part of the scattering of the Stark pack after Ned's death (and then, of course, after the RW), so it's connected to the story of the Stark children. Arya, Sansa, and Bran especially have really been on individual journeys that are among the most fascinating in canon. Neither knows if the others are alive. Their loneliness is fraught with uncertainty.

However, Dany's position is a little different. There's little uncertainty about the fate of her brothers and the rest of her family -- Dany knows they are dead. She has no idea that Jon exists, and she's been warned off (f)Aegon ("the mummer's dragon"). There isn't the glimmer of hope that perhaps one of her family members is out there. Dany knows she's the last, and after the birth of her dragons, there may not be anyone else.

So while Arya and Dany's loneliness is definitely parallel, once again, we observe the difference between direwolves and dragons. The pack is scattered, but most of the Stark children are still alive -- there's always a hope that the lone wolves will reunite.

But a dragon? A dragon is a creature of magic. A creature that shouldn't exist, an unnatural creature (as the Braavosi of old and perhaps the FM of canon would attest).

Therefore, I'd say that while Dany and Arya pray for home, their prayers are different. For both girls, home is a place. Arya's home is Winterfell. Dany's home is the house with the red door and the scent of lemons (love how the lemons link her with Sansa, by the way).

For Arya, home is also people. She thinks of her family. Of Jon, of Sansa, of her mother and father, and her brothers.

But for Dany? Home is stepping back in time. Perhaps not even just back to her childhood, but back to a time when there were people who were "blood of her blood." back when her brother was still young and hopeful and hadn't yet been embittered by exile.

And back before the Rebellion, back before the tragedy of Summerhall, back perhaps even before the Dance...

"It was Kings Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her minds eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her minds eye, all the doors were red."

No idea what GRRM has planned for Dany, but the bittersweetness of this is that she (and the nephew(s) she doesn't know about yet) may very well be the last of her people. I think of her trying to recall everything Viserys told her, prodding Barristan's memories about her eldest brother, her father...

What were they like? What kind of people were they? What would they have thought of me?

Do you see them in me? The good? The bad? The ugly?

Note that she asks about the men of her family. She rarely asks about Rhaella...

I think she can't bear to. The mother who cradled her, loved her in the womb, then died giving her life. No matter what Dany finds out Jon and/or Aegon, there are no other Targaryen women left.

As an avid Arya fan, I sometimes long for Lyanna to step into the text and tell her that she's OK, that there's nothing wrong with the way she's made. Or one of a zillion other she-wolves. I feel the same about Dany and some of the fabulous, fantastic but dead Targaryen women of the past. The thing that I've always hated most about death is that it's the end of a conversation. Weird, I know, but in several instances, we were literally in the midst of talking about stuff and we were going to talk again, the next day, a few days later...

If they could talk, what would they say to me?

Valyrian is Dany's mother tongue. And it was likely Viserys who taught her that ancient language, comforted her with it during the bad times when she was very little, recounted some of the family's stories and songs that he could remember...

Yet there would have been so much that Viserys did not know, could not know. He was only eight years old when everything was lost. And before that, he didn't have a typical Targ prince's childhood. Aerys was unraveling. Rhaegar was preoccupied. Rhaella was wounded.

And they were all that was left.

And now, there are things that only Dany knows. I love Arya. Adore her. But no matter what happens, the North remembers. Not only does the blood of the First Men endure both south and north of the (doomed) Wall, all the lore of her House, her region, and her people is still intact. Yes, yes, the past few generations of Starks have suffered a lot. Three of Rickard's four children had their lives end tragically, as did he, and the jury's still out on the fate of First Ranger Benjen.

But there's little chance of anyone forgetting about Bael the Bard, or the Night's King, or how the Karstarks became the Karstarks, or how the Manderlys came to White Harbor...

How many tales of Old Valyria are now lost beyond any hope of recovery? How many family stories, passed down over the generations, burned to nothingness at Summerhall? Talk about loss and loneliness.

This is one of the reasons why I can't wait for Dany to meet the Starks. Like many here, I think that there's a common language of grief that she'll be able to share with them. Because there certainly is fellowship in suffering.

[BearQueen87]

Beautifully said, Liz!

I'm going to touch on a just a little something in passing but you hit all nails on their heads.

The idea of home as a place is certainly true for both Dany and Arya, but the one thing that does further separate them is that Winterfell literally exists. The house with the red door did probably exist at one point (freaking lemon tree and all) but it has come to be much more symbolic and magical for Dany, much like the dragons that you pointed out "A dragon is a creature of magic. A creature that shouldn't exist, an unnatural creature."

Dany's house with the red door is a lot like that. Arya can always return to an actual place (well, so long as WF is standing I suppose) but we don't know if Dany can ever find that house with the red door ever again, which is why she starts thinking about every house being her house with the red door. You mentioned the King's Landing quote from her "home" conversation with Jorah. I'll mention two more: in her final POV of ASOS, while in Meereen, she starts looking for that house with the red door and can't find it there either, but the important part is the looking. And second, in a dream she has in ADWD where she dreams of a simple life. It's not even that specific Braavosi house with the red door she's dreaming of; it's just a home where she feels safe and warm. For Dany, she's going to have to make her own home and readjust her perceived reality of what home means.

I said this in our Dany Re-read so I'll just quote myself a bit: At the end of the day, a house is just a structure, red door or not. What makes a house a home are the memories you make and the feelings you associate with that house. That's why the red door is so important: the emotions it and the memories of it elicit for Dany, namely being safe and at peace. The Dothraki sea has no red doors (or doors for that matter) yet in GOT Dany III, we have her standing in the Sea, dirty and oiled and barefoot...and at peace. Vaes Tolloro had no red doors, yet Dany and her people began to create a life there, complete with safety and sweet tasting fruits (the peach) that Dany can savor and enjoy. They don't just rest there, they start to live. It's the city of bones, but from it comes life and renewal--and you see this with the work the khalasar puts into making the city livable again and on a more personal note, the way Dany starts to heal those around her, like tending to Jorah's wounds herself.

How many tales of Old Valyria are now lost beyond any hope of recovery? How many family stories, passed down over the generations, burned to nothingness at Summerhall? Talk about loss and loneliness.

And it's when you bring this up that I do start to feel a little something for Viserys. He was mad and crazed and cruel, but he did have a burden of not only an entire family name on his shoulders, but an entire race. The dragon lords of Valyria on resting on him, like they now rest on Dany.