GTFOH: Theon’s Actions in the books are brave, not arrogant!

[House Obama]

WARNING!

This thread contains thoughts and opinions, which should be label facts, but nonetheless a solid pov of Theon’s Greyjoy character. My words may sting, or kindle anger to fans of House Stark. And for that, I say, GROW UP!

I have seen many comments from members that bash Theon for his “immoral” actions; however, I am starting to understand that most readers are simply ignorant…

This is a rapid summary of Theon’s backstory:

· Theon was born on Pyke, not Winterfell; therefore, his REAL family is the Greyjoys

· Theon is an honorable hostage, not a family member of the Stark, so he did not betray them like many readers tell themselves

· His true father is Balon Greyjoy, not Ned Stark… once again, he was a hostage at Winterfell, albeit a well-treated one

· He had to bend the knee to Robb because he was surrounded by northerners, who had just proclaimed Robb the King-in-the-North. Do you truly think the northerners would have been okay with him being the only person standing up throughout the chants? NO! There’s your answer.

· Robb sent Theon (the hostage) to the Iron Islands. Would you continue to serve someone who released you from their captivity, if they sent you home to your true family? If so, you’re a mentally weak person.

· Theon was reminded by his family that he was a Greyjoy, not a Stark. His loyalty was to his father’s kingdom.

· Theon did the honorable thing and sided with his father’s cause and waged war against the North. While raiding the shores of the North, Theon, who is an underrated cunning character, decided to take Winterfell. He made an elaborated plan to seize it, which far too many readers do not give him credit for. And oppose to popular beliefs, Theon did not take Winterfell out of arrogance, he seized it because it was a genius move.

· Theon had to kill people in Winterfell because they would have rebelled. In my opinion, Theon was kinder than he should have been because he kept getting disrespected by peasants! Theon was the Prince of Winterfell and the Iron Islands, so that was beyond disrespectful.

· An example of his kindness was when he talked to Bran and explicitly told him that he wouldn’t harm the townsfolk of Winterfell if he yielded the castle openly to Theon… He even went to great length to not kill Bran and Rickon after they escaped, and because of this, he was looking weaker and weaker in the eyes of the ironborns.

· Theon had to kill the farmer boys because there would have probably been a revoke in Winterfell the longer the boys were missing. Isn’t it wiser, even kinder, that two boys died, so the majority of people live?

· My only qualm with Theon was that he didn’t leave Winterfell when he had the chance. That was his only stupid decision.

· Theon was brave for warring against the North because the Iron Islands have fewer men and resources. He could have been a coward and traitor, and turns against his family, with hopes of becoming King of the Iron Islands if Robb killed Balon.

Bonus Point:

The Iron Islands believe in the religion of the Drown God. The Drown God praises when the Ironborns sack and pillage lands. Therefore, Theon was not in the wrong for doing so, especially because his actions were performed during a war. In war, armies pillage and sack others’ lands. Also, it was a very good strategic move by Balon because he was taking the North bit by bit, while Robb was fighting the Lannister.

Of course, Theon’s conscious was conflicted because he grew up with Ned’s sons and daughters, but he was never truly a Stark.

PS – Every month I make an unique thread that clouds uninteresting ones. I do not make them to seek recognition, or to troll (as many members think).

[RobertRivers]

He's not as bad as people and Northmen make him out to be. But to quote the late Roderick cassel " Theons always had a lofty opinion of himself" and I agree with that. I started hating him when he took winterfell but I was so appalled by what we find out what happened to him in the dreadfort that I couldnt help but feel bad for him. He also risked his remains skin saving jeyne (even though he broke some of her ribs), so I can't help but to like him a little more. far from my favorite character, but his ADWD chapters were some of my favorite in the whole series.

[Lady Meliora]

Theon was never ordered to Winterfell, as you touched on. He disobeyed his father's orders (for a reason, to be sure, but he still disobeyed his father/king). And while taking Winterfell may have been a "genius move" at the time, look at what resulted from it. I don't think Theon would have ever taken Winterfell if he'd known what would come of that decision.

While I agree that Theon is not a wholly bad character, and I do believe that he was torn for years between his blood family and the Starks, I don't think that he's necessarily brave so much as desperate to seem brave.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

Yeah, his "brave" moves have totally worked out for him.

[House Obama]

Yeah, his "brave" moves have totally worked out for him.

Oh no, his downfall was not leaving when his sister warned him.

[House Obama]

Theon was never ordered to Winterfell, as you touched on. He disobeyed his father's orders (for a reason, to be sure, but he still disobeyed his father/king). And while taking Winterfell may have been a "genius move" at the time, look at what resulted from it. I don't think Theon would have ever taken Winterfell if he'd known what would come of that decision.

While I agree that Theon is not a wholly bad character, and I do believe that he was torn for years between his blood family and the Starks, I don't think that he's necessarily brave so much as desperate to seem brave.

You have to remember, his plan to capture Winterfell was successful. Actually, it was pretty genius, considering how none of his men died. The captured of Winterfell was very impactful. Even characters assumed that their cause was lost because the Stark had no home. Theon stayed longer than he should have though, his sister warned him that an army was coming, and that he was too far from the sea.

[Lady Meliora]

You have to remember, his plan to capture Winterfell was successful. Actually, it was pretty genius, considering how none of his men died. The captured of Winterfell was very impactful. Even characters assumed that their cause was lost because the Stark had no home. Theon stayed longer than he should have though, his sister warned him that an army was coming, and that he was too far from the sea.

The lesson here, obviously, is that you should always listen to Asha.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

I think his downfall began as soon as he boarded the ship back to the Iron Islands.

He was totally fucking doomed by ignoring Asha.

[House Obama]

I think his downfall began as soon as he boarded the ship back to the Iron Islands.

He was totally fucking doomed by ignoring Asha.

Well, I actually thought going back to the Iron Islands was the smart thing to do.

[O Estranho]

Not a genius move if it didn't work out. He didn't stop to think about what would he do after he's taken Winterfell, that was pretty dumb. He thought he could do everything, I call that an arrogant person. Even in the Iron Islands he could think more on how the people would react to him coming back. But no "THEY GONNA LOVE ME IM SO FAB"

And he did betray his king, so it was a shitty move to make, it doens't matter that his true family were attacking the north. You can justify some things, but that doesn't make them good, nor make him a good person.

He swore to Robb that he was going to bring the Ironborn to Robb's side, and he was willing to do that, but he changed his mind out of fear and shame. He could be honorable to his word, he saw Robb as a friend, and he started to be in denial the whole time after he talked to Asha and his father. He knew it wasn't the right thing to do, but he took winterfell to be respected by his father and sister, he never thought about the consquences... arrogant.

After that, we know that what he wanted was to be a Stark, he loved them, but never could be one of them. And he loved Winterfell too. So... denial. That was the place where he received love that could never receive with his true father Balon. And he saw Eddard as a father too. he didn't like to be remembered that he was a lucky bastard to be captive of the Stark, but that was the truth, he was treated as part of the family and this must be taken in consideration. He was arrogant enough to ignore these things and that was his downfall. He was not a good person. And right now I just pity him too much to like him.

[mediterraneo]

I'm in with Theon "defenders".

I do find that Theon did have friendship ties with Robb, which he thus personally betrayed in my book.

But I agree on the core of the claim that he had no duty to side with his family's enemies in a clash between his people and his people's enemies, which had killed his brothers.

One could consider that any blood debt was paid enough when you see that Theon's prowess had saved Bran and Robb from the Free People group Osha went with. It was close, Theon intervention was crucial. I don't remember if the book Robb was surrendering his weapons as the show one was, but it was a difficult situation in any case.

In war, Theon was fast hitting and brave. Maybe the defense of Winterfell was doomed, but taking it by surprise with 20 men or so was in any case a great show of prowess again. And we would have to see if the northerners would have been able to storm the reduced part of Winterfell Theon and his ones were defending. Castles in general are built to be force multipliers and to be defended by few peoples. Theon was able to sneak on Roderik Cassell's defences with 20 men, Cassell with hundreds and more time wasn't able to replicate the feat. And the castle was taken because they opened their doors to a very complex scheme.

What he did later... It is difficult to ethically condone the murder of innocents to get propaganda effects. Things could get into a lighter perspective when contextualized in the society Theon lives in, in the civil war he lives in. But it is still the cold blooded murder of two kids for a short to mid term propaganda advantage.

But hey, the attempt to catch Winterfell to catch the eye of his father would have been an arrogant thing to think.
Actually doing it is the actually braver feat of arms we testified in the War of the FIve Kings, I believe.

[Jehane]

I'm currently re-reading the books and think that Theon is a very tragic character. He was taken hostage at an early age and even though the Starks may not have treated him as a hostage, that's what he was. Also, even though he sees himself as heir to Pyke and behaves quite arrogantly, he has to find out that his own father doesn't trust him because of his time with the Starks. He's forced to make a decision, and of course he will declare for his own blood. You can't really blame him for that. He's no Stark; being friends with Robb doesn't make him a Stark. Beneath his arrogance and his laughter, I think Theon's very desperate - desperate to prove himself worthy, to gain his crazy father's respect, to show that he's better than Asha and deserves to be heir to Pyke. His arrogance, I think, basically serves as a shield behind which he hides - probably even unaware of doing so.

That he was able to take Winterfell at all and that he devised such a cunning plan - kudos to that, that was very smartly done even though he acted contrary to his father's orders. But again - he was trying to earn respect, to carve out a place for himself in this world. His mistake was to think that he'd be able to hold Winterfell. Essentially, I think he was cornered once he had discovered that Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor had fled. He had to do something. He had to find the boys and bring them back. With the Ironborn, you can't go "Oh well, they're just boys, we'll let them go, they're no threat". He would have lost whatever respect he had gained by that point - which is little enough. So basically he had two choices: being laughed at for letting the boys slip away, thus losing whatever support he had, or killing them (resp. the miller's sons in their stead) and being despised by the North for what he did. Either way, he's effed.

What really baffled me on the re-read: Didn't he realise that "Reek" was actually Ramsay Snow? It's easy to miss, granted, but GRRM more than once states that "Reek" has cold grey eyes - as does Roose Bolton. What Theon suffers at the hands of Ramsay is awful. When I first read the books, I hated him for what he had done, and when I read the first Reek-chapter in ADWD, I was like "Yes, bring it on, punish the bastard". That went away after I had finished all his POVs in ADWD and all that was left was pity for the guy. Upon re-reading the books, I cannot help but perceive him as a very lost, tragic and broken character who's tangled up in a very brutal society that demands things of him he probably wouldn't do under normal circumstances (i.e. killing innocent children).

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Hostage raised by other families is commonplace in the books so it does not excuse his actions especially as he has by all accounts bee treat well. To me Theon comes across a lost boy not belonging anywhere. I Think GRRM has had fun writing him as a pathetic character who can do no right.To say he is brave is wide of the mark, if he were brave he would have killed himself long ago after the tortures began.

[House Obama]

Not a genius move if it didn't work out. He didn't stop to think about what would he do after he's taken Winterfell, that was pretty dumb. He thought he could do everything, I call that an arrogant person. Even in the Iron Islands he could think more on how the people would react to him coming back. But no "THEY GONNA LOVE ME IM SO FAB"

And he did betray his king, so it was a shitty move to make, it doens't matter that his true family were attacking the north. You can justify some things, but that doesn't make them good, nor make him a good person.

He swore to Robb that he was going to bring the Ironborn to Robb's side, and he was willing to do that, but he changed his mind out of fear and shame. He could be honorable to his word, he saw Robb as a friend, and he started to be in denial the whole time after he talked to Asha and his father. He knew it wasn't the right thing to do, but he took winterfell to be respected by his father and sister, he never thought about the consquences... arrogant.

After that, we know that what he wanted was to be a Stark, he loved them, but never could be one of them. And he loved Winterfell too. So... denial. That was the place where he received love that could never receive with his true father Balon. And he saw Eddard as a father too. he didn't like to be remembered that he was a lucky bastard to be captive of the Stark, but that was the truth, he was treated as part of the family and this must be taken in consideration. He was arrogant enough to ignore these things and that was his downfall. He was not a good person. And right now I just pity him too much to like him.

Firstly, if I was a prince and was returning home for the first time in years, I would also like to see the look on people’s faces. Theon most likely had friends on Pyke as a boy, and as I recall, he was really excited to see his uncles. I view his experience as a boy who was sent to a military school as an adolescent and finally returning home, when he completed the schooling. The boy, who was terrified when he first entered, is now a strong, confident, and proud individual. Can we really cast insults at him, if he say, “Everyone jaws are going to drop when I come into the door.” He’s confident and happy that he’s home.

Also, Robb was not his true king. Robb was the son of the person who held him hostage, albeit, he was never physically or mentally harm by the Starks… but he couldn’t sail back to Pyke if he wanted to.

I will agree that Theon was shamed by his family, but he was also conflicted by them. His family reminded him of his true status while living with the Stark, which was an “honorable guest.” Balon and Asha then told him that his rightful king was not Robb Stark. They were correct. Theon is from the Iron Islands; therefore, his allegiance lies with his father’s family, Hosue Greyjoy. Believe it or not, Theon did the honorable thing by siding with his family.

True again, Robb was his friend, but sometimes friend war against friend, and family against family. That’s life. Furthermore, Theon did think about the consequences when he took Winterfell; however, he just did not think about all of the consequences, especially after keeping it for longer than he should have. Theon thought about how impactful it would be to the Stark, and how crucial the taking of it was to the Greyjoy.

Once again, Theon was conflicted because Robb was his friend, and House Stark has treated him with kindness. Moreover, the Iron Islands’ traditions are very barbaric, and tough to live by. Theon probably became very comfortable with the North’s tradition, though not their gods. And he lived with them for quite some time, so the feeling of wanted to be a Stark was going to be uncontrollable.

He grew up with them and he came to loved Winterfell and its atmosphere because the North is a great place to live, during the summer at least. Moreover, Ned looked upon Jon Arryns as a father, but he also loved his father too. The same applies to Theon because he saw Ned as a father figure, but he also knew that Balon was his true father. This emotional confliction is common is our world. For example, I never get along with my natural father, so I view my step-father as a surrogated father, even though we do not share the same blood… I pity Theon because he has a tough life, and was basically played as a pawn to everyone as Theon and Reek.

If this post doesn’t change how you see thing, I do not know what will.

[House Obama]

Hostage raised by other families is commonplace in the books so it does not excuse his actions especially as he has by all accounts bee treat well. To me Theon comes across a lost boy not belonging anywhere. I Think GRRM has had fun writing him as a pathetic character who can do no right.To say he is brave is wide of the mark, if he were brave he would have killed himself long ago after the tortures began.

Taking Winterfell was risky and brave, if you look at it in the eyes of an ironborn.

And how is committing suicide brave?

[TheWanderer]

Robb sent Theon (the hostage) to the Iron Islands. Would you continue to serve someone who released you from their captivity, if they sent you home to your true family? If so, you’re a mentally weak person.

Robb sent his friend Theon, as a free man, to make an alliance between their families. It was in the best interest of both Theon's friends and his family to reach a deal.

Theon was brave for warring against the North because the Iron Islands have fewer men and resources.

Brave for warring against women, old men and children? Hardly. The whole reason the Iron Islands attacked was because the North's fighting men were gone south.

Also, it was a very good strategic move by Balon because he was taking the North bit by bit, while Robb was fighting the Lannister.

It was not a good move for Balon. 1) He cannot hold the North: the people will not allow it, the terrain will not allow it, the weather will not allow it, the castles will not allow it. 2) If Robb wins his war (most likely at this point) then the Iron Islands burn for taking the North. If Tywin, Stannis or Renly wins (always possible) the Iron Islands burn for declaring independence.

But I agree on the core of the claim that he had no duty to side with his family's enemies in a clash between his people and his people's enemies, which had killed his brothers.

The Starks, and the North, are not the enemies of the Iron Islands. Theon's brothers died the last time his father went to war (and they died at Seaguard and Pyke, nothing to do with the North) so why is he beholden to support him this time, when it is his life at stake?

One could consider that any blood debt was paid enough when you see that Theon's prowess had saved Bran and Robb from the Free People group Osha went with.

What blood debt? You don't save your friend's life because you owe them something, you do it because they're your friend!

Castles in general are built to be force multipliers and to be defended by few peoples.

Not 20. Not a castle the size of Winterfell.

Firstly, if I was a prince

Firstly, Theon is not a prince.

Also, Robb was not his true king. Robb was the son of the person who held him hostage, albeit, he was never physically or mentally harm by the Starks… but he couldn’t sail back to Pyke if he wanted to.

Robb was his friend. Sure, Theon was a hostage but he wasn't Robb's hostage. Robb never treated him as anything other than a close friend and trusted adviser. And Theon never thought of him as anything other than his best friend and King. Robb may not be Theon's King technically but Theon thinks he is, and that's all that really matters.

Theon is from the Iron Islands; therefore, his allegiance lies with his father’s family, Hosue Greyjoy. Believe it or not, Theon did the honorable thing by siding with his family.

His allegiance is to his family, it should be his goal to do what is best for them. And that's why he brings Robb's terms to his father, because they are what's best for his family. His family and Robb's are not on opposite sides, until Balon gets spiteful and stupid. At that point Theon doesn't have an honourable choice left.

Furthermore, Theon did think about the consequences when he took Winterfell; however, he just did not think about all of the consequences, especially after keeping it for longer than he should have. Theon thought about how impactful it would be to the Stark, and how crucial the taking of it was to the Greyjoy.

He did not seem to realize the North would make a serious effort to retake Winterfell, and that they would not stop. He did not realize the damage he'd done to Robb's cause, the damage he'd done to Robb's family. He always thinks of Robb as a friend, and did not wish to destroy his kingdom and him. And taking Winterfell achieves nothing for Greyjoy. Balon didn't want it, Asha told him to leave.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Taking Winterfell was risky and brave, if you look at it in the eyes of an ironborn.

And how is committing suicide brave?

Taking Winterfell from 2 kids and the few left behind when he had a working knowledge of the place was sneaky and cowardly. Committing suicide rather than being teased and tortured , used and abused would have been braver than going on. Theon is a loser coward for the times and mythos of the situation set out in the book

[House Obama]

Robb sent his friend Theon, as a free man, to make an alliance between their families. It was in the best interest of both Theon's friends and his family to reach a deal.

Brave for warring against women, old men and children? Hardly. The whole reason the Iron Islands attacked was because the North's fighting men were gone south.

It was not a good move for Balon. 1) He cannot hold the North: the people will not allow it, the terrain will not allow it, the weather will not allow it, the castles will not allow it. 2) If Robb wins his war (most likely at this point) then the Iron Islands burn for taking the North. If Tywin, Stannis or Renly wins (always possible) the Iron Islands burn for declaring independence.

The Starks, and the North, are not the enemies of the Iron Islands. Theon's brothers died the last time his father went to war (and they died at Seaguard and Pyke, nothing to do with the North) so why is he beholden to support him this time, when it is his life at stake?

What blood debt? You don't save your friend's life because you owe them something, you do it because they're your friend!

Not 20. Not a castle the size of Winterfell.

Firstly, Theon is not a prince.

Robb was his friend. Sure, Theon was a hostage but he wasn't Robb's hostage. Robb never treated him as anything other than a close friend and trusted adviser. And Theon never thought of him as anything other than his best friend and King. Robb may not be Theon's King technically but Theon thinks he is, and that's all that really matters.

His allegiance is to his family, it should be his goal to do what is best for them. And that's why he brings Robb's terms to his father, because they are what's best for his family. His family and Robb's are not on opposite sides, until Balon gets spiteful and stupid. At that point Theon doesn't have an honourable choice left.

He did not seem to realize the North would make a serious effort to retake Winterfell, and that they would not stop. He did not realize the damage he'd done to Robb's cause, the damage he'd done to Robb's family. He always thinks of Robb as a friend, and did not wish to destroy his kingdom and him. And taking Winterfell achieves nothing for Greyjoy. Balon didn't want it, Asha told him to leave.

That’s where you’re wrong. The interest of the Greyjoy was to pillage the North because they have few to no resources on the Iron Islands. Also, Balon was declaring the Iron Islands independent.

Are you mad at Balon for capitalizing on a good opportunity to attack the North lol? You’re just bias.

You’re acting as if ironborns has never conquered before. Harren the black ruled the Iron Isalnds, Riverlands, and some pieces of the Stormlands. Balon was hoping that the other kings would slaughter each other, while his army stays relatively healthy. Also, Balon was banking that Tywin would crush Robb, which he did lol.

The Greyjoy have a clear hatred for the Stark because Ned was basically Robert’s right hand man. Ned was also the person who volunteered to take Theon as his hostage, or in nicer terms, an honorable guest. And once again, Theon is from the Iron Islands, not the North. Balon was his king.

Theon may’ve been Robb friend, but he was still a hostage. He even told Bran that Robb was lord of Winterfell; therefore, he serves him. When he told Bran that, he acknowledged that he was a hostage, or a servant to House Stark, specially the lord of the house.

People constantly forget this. Winterfell is not a castle, it is a stronghold, a very well built stronghold

Theon is a prince lol. Did you even read the books?

Oh, I am sorry, but I recall Theon pledging his allegiance to Balon once he returned home. Aye, Theon saw Robb as his best friend, but his family reminded him that he was the enemy… Do all the members a favor and try to see it from a ironborn’s pov.

You must be a House Stark’s fanboy. Balon was not stupid in doing what he did. House Greyjoy Do Not Sow!

Lol, that’s where you’re wrong, Theon sent a raven to his sister to lend him 500 or 1000 men. Asha, however, chose not to because she felt that her plan was better. I think Theon’s plan was good actually because during his chapters, he told readers that Ned Stark told him story of how Winterfell withstood sieges with just 100 men and less. Therefore, 500-1000 men would’ve been formidable.

When Theon sided with his family he knew that he would be warring against Robb, so it is safe to assume that he wished to destroy his kingdom, though not is a brutal way. Also, Balon did not want Winterfell because it was in the heart of the North, which was a bad location strategically… sorry I don’t know how to set up quotes as you do.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

After 10 years at Winterfell Theon knew its weaknesses. He knew how many people were left to guard it. He knew he had a good chance to capture it. He raided his foster familys home -coward. If he had gone blind into some tough mission with the odds stacked against him and won then he`d gain kudos points. Plus he`d rather be tortured than jump out the window.

[House Obama]

True, his stay at Winterfell did allow him to know the its weaknesses, but he never wanted to be ship off there in the first place. Please do not forget that Winterfell had enough men to overwhelm the ironborns, so that is why Theon devised a plan to take it through trickier. He gets insulted for doing it, but readers praised Robb when he did it… remember, he sent 20,000 men to their death to fool Tywin Lannister. Why would you make yourself have to do more work than necessary? Theon knew that a battle between his men and Winterfell would mean their defeat. And have you ever tried to kill yourself, it is a lot tougher than it looks. Read articles about people who have attempted suicide.