Prince Mud: The Quentyn Martell Reread Project

[Illuminated by Fire]

Oh, yes. Aegon and Quentyn have quite a parallel journey.

I think there is a very interesting contrast between the three current suitors of Dany who are from Westeros: Aegon, Quentyn and Victarion. First, Aegon and Quentyn are kids, they have barely seen blood and they are eager to prove they're grown men even though they aren't: Compare this (sorry for use a future chapter):

[..] "I am not a squire," Quentyn had protested when Gerris Drinkwater - known here as Dornish Gerrold, to distinguish him from Gerrold Redback and Black Gerrold, and sometimes as Drink, since the big man had slipped and called him that - suggested the ruse. "I earned my spurs in Dorne. I am as much a knight as you are."

But Gerris had the right of it; he and Arch were here to protect Quentyn, and that meant keeping him by the big man's side. "Arch is the best fighter of the three of us," Drinkwater had pointed out, "but only you can hope to wed the dragon queen."

with this:

Griff drew his longsword. "Yollo, light the torches. Lad, take Lemore back to her cabin and stay with her."

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

"I don't need to be protected. I can use a sword as well as Duck. I'm half a knight."

"And half a boy," said Griff. "Do as you are told. Now."

The youth cursed under his breath and flung his pole down onto the deck. The sound echoed queerly in the fog, and for a moment it was as if poles were falling around them. "Why should I run and hide? Haldon is staying, and Ysilla. Even Hugor."

"Aye," said Tyrion, "but I'm small enough to hide behind a duck."

[..]

"You're a dwarf, " Young Griff said scornfully.

"My secret is revealed," Tyrion agreed. "Aye, I'm less than half of Haldon, and no one gives a mummer's fart whether I live or die." Least of all me. "You, though ... you are everything."

Both Quentyn and Aegon want to woo the Dragon Queen but the Dragon Queen is not a maid, nor a child, she's a woman (men, not women. Although, they're neither). They can't go and tell "please" (Q) or "do" (A). They both are virgins who cannot drive :dunno: Neither of them know how to treat with a women like Dany because they don't have experience in the subject. Or in any subject. Yet, they are the most important part of the plans. Quentyn is the Prince of Dorne and Aegon is the future King, yet, they are surrounded by men who are, even if unintentionally, superior to them and take the risks and decisions in order to protect them.

Victarion, otoh,

Victarion is his own man. He's not going to simply "woo" Dany and ask her for her hand. He's already killing the people she needs dead (this made me wonder how Martin wooed his wife... "look, darling... I've killed Robb Stark and his family!"). Also, traditions have changed :P :

"Ser Harwyn says those tales are lies." Lady Amerei wound a braid around her finger. "He has promised me Lord Beric's head. He's very gallant." She was blushing beneath her tears.

Jaime thought back on the head he'd given to Pia. He could almost hear his little brother chuckle. Whatever became of giving women flowers?

I disagree for the most part. The comparison between Aegon and Quentyn only fits so far: Both want to marry Daenerys and both have been in a situation where they have been wounded in their pride. But the thing about the knight bit is: Quentyn is a knight, he is not pretending to be one and he is not trying to make others believe he is one. He is not pretending to be a great warrior either. He is just saying that he earned his knighthood and does not want to be seen as a squire. And he did earn his knighthood, you do not need to win a battle in a war to do this, so this is completely understandable. And he did give in because it was a sensible idea in the end. Aegon on the other hand is wounded, because he wants to prove himself and sees it as a right to fight with the others, but does freeze when it matters. Quite a different scenario.

And surrounded by 'superior' men is also not true, at least in Quentyn's case. Gerris has more confidence and charisma, but that makes for a paramour at most. Marriage is a political game. The 'irony' is that Quentyn is spot on with his quote: I am Dorne, he told himself. She will want Dorne. Despite all his doubts and his inexperience this is true. In the end it is political and the only reason that she refuses him is that she needs other things more and more urgently. And that is where the Victarion comparison fails too. The useful thing about Victarion for Daenerys are his assets: His fleet and probably Moqorro. He himself is not needed, although he could turn out to do something substantial in the future. But that he fights her enemies is because he has the means to do so, not because he has more confidence or experience. That is the case, but it is not the main reason Victarion has an advantage. Quentyn with a Dornish army at his back or Aegon with the Golden Company could accomplish similar things (except for water transport of course), but he has little choice about the means he has.

[Chebyshov]

I don't have a ton of time, so quick response to this:

@Chebysov - The point you bring up about Doran is part of the reason I'm here. One of the things that has always puzzled me is how little Doran does to help Quentyn. Not even in ways I imagine he could have helped Quentyn. In actual ways GRRM showed us he could have helped Quentyn. Two spring to mind.

1. He's got actual books on dragons that he makes available to Arianne. Presumably that's because he thinks they'll be useful. So he has those resources, but when Quentyn actually goes to see dragons, he doesn't seem to have read them.

2. He's got experience of wooing a lady with unimpressive looks. Could some of his experience have been helpful?

I will take on board the point that Doran has probably had little contact with Quent up to this point, but this mission is supposedly very important to Doran. Doran is supposedly a master planner.

1. There's every indication Quentyn did read about dragons:

“The pit has slowed their growth.” Quentyn’s readings had suggested that the same thing had occurred in the Seven Kingdoms. None of the dragons bred and raised in the Dragonpit of King’s Landing had ever approached the size of Vhagar or Meraxes, much less that of the Black Dread, King Aegon’s monster. “Have you brought sufficient chains?”

.....

I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her. I want to ride in tourneys, hawk and hunt, visit with my mother in Norvos, read some of those books my father sends me. I want Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry to be alive again.

2. I'm of the mind that Mellario was a bit easy to woo, but like. I really don't think we can fault Doran for a lack of sex advice. Quentyn's 18 when he's dispatched, and it's supposed to be a political alliance first and foremost anyway. I'm not sure that Doran could have known about the intensity of Quentyn's gynophobia anyway, unless Quentyn decided to mention it at the Water Gardens. It just feels like an odd criticism.

[Illuminated by Fire]

The Windblown

The gods are mad.

Summary:

Throughout this chapter Archibald, Gerris and Quentyn are disguised as sellswords of the Windblown in their camp near Astapor shortly after the sack. The Windblown are led by a Pentoshi who is called the Tattered Prince, because of his cloak, which is made out of many different colored twists of cloth. Archibald, Gerris and Quentyn are known by the names Greenguts, Dornish Gerrold or Drink and Frog. Quentyn poses as Archibald's squire for his protection and is known as Frog because he jumps at every command. At the beginning a rumor goes through the camp that Daenerys comes south to attack Yunkai and they get the order to march for Yunkai. After a short speech of the Tattered Prince Gerris, Archibald and some of the sellswords comment on the slave troups of Yunkai, mocking them for their ineffectiveness, while insulting the Yunkish nobles. As soon as Gerris and Quentyn are alone, they discuss when to seperate from the Windblown. Quentyn insists on acting fast while Gerris argues for a more patient approach of deserting after they passed Yunkai. At last all Westerosi sellswords are called to a meeting in the command tent, where the Tattered Prince commands them to desert to Daenerys after they pass Yunkai, under the guise of hunting escaped Astapori, which presents an opportunity for Quentyn and his group to desert.

Analysis:

Quentyn and Frog:

Throughout Quentyn's chapters there is the recurring theme of identity and self-image, even more so than for most characters. Because of that I want to start with the most striking aspect of this chapter best described with the following quote:

In Dorne Quentyn Martell had been a prince, in Volantis a merchant's man, but on the shores of Slaver's Bay he was only Frog, squire to the big bald Dornish knight the sellswords called Greenguts. The men of the Windblown used what names they would, and changed them at a whim. They'd fastened Frog on him because he hopped so fast when the big man shouted a command.

As in the first chapter Quentyn and his companions travel under a false identity to reach Daenerys in Meereen. We see that Quentyn finds himself in a follower role again, after posing as a servant in Volantis. How he got his name is another remark that following is natural for him, he does not merely pretend to be Archibald's squire, but is very quick about obeying him, too. The difference here is that in the Merchant's Man Quentyn was the one to suggest the ruse, or at least the change of roles, but this time it is Gerris' idea, with which he had a problem at the beginning:

“I am not a squire,” Quentyn had protested when Gerris Drinkwater […] suggested the ruse. “I earned my spurs in Dorne. I am as much a knight as you are.”

But Gerris had the right of it; he and Arch were here to protect Quentyn, and that meant keeping him by the big man's side. “Arch is the best fighter of the three of us,” Drinkwater had pointed out, “but only you can hope to wed the dragon queen.”

The problem for Quentyn here is that the ruse is not completely false. While pretending to be a merchant or a servant of one is completely unrelated to what they are. In this case they are actually knights and Quentyn is the only one pretending to be a squire instead, effectively denying something he has accomplished, which in turn hurts his pride. But it is important that he agrees regardless and does not let his pride hurt their mission. Interesting is also that he made another choice regarding their identities:

They had abandoned their own fine armor in Volantis, along with their gold and their true names. Wealthy knights from Houses old in honor did not cross the narrow sea to sell their swords, unless exiled for some infamy. “I'd sooner pose as poor than evil,” Quentyn had declared, when Gerris explained his ruse to them.

He clearly decides to leave their gold and armor behind to not be seen as exiles. There are arguments to be made for both decisions. On the one hand keeping their money would have helped for bribing people, better armor in case they get in a fight and they could have made a better appearance when finally speaking with Daenerys. On the other hand it would have made them much more noticeable and nearly impossible to just mingle with the other sellswords from Westeros. They would have drawn much more suspicion regarding their motives which is a big problem since the Windblown are fighting for Yunkai. But what is clear that these considerations are not Quentyn's reason for his choice. Instead, his reasons are moral ones, which is astounding considering they are planning to betray the Windblown to begin with, but more to that later.

Interesting in this chapter is when Quentyn thinks of or refers to himself as Frog and when as Quentyn. He refers to himself as Frog when he thinks in term of his disguise as a squire, for example when Archibald gives him a command or thinking about the other sellswords, but not only then. He also does it when being insecure or being in a situation he has little experience with. On the other side he refers to himself as Quentyn when he thinks about his mission, his responsibilities and the expectations that others have of him. How that is weighed in a particular situation can change quickly:

“Daenerys may be halfway to Yunkai by now, with an army at her back,” Quentyn said as they walked amongst the horses.

[…]

Gerris took him by the arm. “Wait. A few more days, that's all. We have crossed half the world, be patient for a few more leagues. Somewhere north of Yunkai our chance will come.”

“If you say,” said Frog doubtfully.

Throughout the conversation he refers to himself as Quentyn, but by the end, when Gerris persuades him to wait longer, he refers to himself as Frog, as a sign of his doubts. Important here is, that two aspects are expressed through the same naming mechanism: One is how much he is immersed in his disguise and the other one is how confident he is in himself and in the situation he is in. And both aspects are in turn part of his self-image. Due to the ever changing situation and thoughts the use of the names changes often, which displays his uncertainty but also his focus on his task and the ever changing levels of immersion in his disguise.

Three Dornish Knights:

Another aspect we see more of in this chapters is how Archibald, Gerris and Quentyn interact with each other. The biggest part, but quite easy not to notice, is that Archibald is not involved in the decisions of the group. Quentyn only speaks with him when they need to go to the meeting or when they are playing out their roles as sellswords. But he is never involved in the actual discussions where Gerris and Quentyn talk about their future approach. Conversely he is the one of the three, who interacts with the other sellswords the most and Quentyn even worries about him refusing to desert if they wait too long.

In contrast to this Gerris and Quentyn are working together to plan things out. At least in this chapter there are no rank issues with this, both are working together on an equal level and neither is dominant here, neither Quentyn because of his general doubts nor Gerris because of his lower social status. They are interacting as friends and companions instead. What is noticeable however is their different approach on planning that showed in the first chapter already: Gerris focuses on opportunities and looking in the future, making plans instead of examining them. But he also insists on following the plans once they are already mapped out. Quentyn however focuses on the problems that occur and points where the plans can go wrong in the short term. This interaction leads to something similar to a 'trial and error'-approach, which is best seen in the last chapter. But shades of this are also seen in the discussion about when to desert (the discussion is quite long, so I will not quote it here), where Quentyn says that they need to do it soon whereas Gerris advises patience. The reasons Quentyn wants to act quickly is that he worries about Archibald's reaction if they stay too long and the possibility that they find themselves fighting on the wrong sides. In short, what could go wrong in their current situation. Gerris advises patience because he has confidence in this plan and looks on the probabilities of situations occuring. 'Worst Case' versus 'Average Case' if you want to put it that way.

It will be interesting to see how that develops in future chapters.

Sellswords and Slavers:

This chapter gives us lots and lots of information about the sellsword companies and the slavers of Yunkai. The Windblown themselves are lead by the Tattered Prince, a Pentoshi who was presumably a noble in Pentosh. Rumors say that he was chosen to be the new Pentoshi prince after they killed their old one and he fled the city because of that. He is called the Tattered Prince because of the cloak, which is made of many cloth stripes of different colors. The other sellsword company that is mentioned is the Company of the Cat, which is led by a sellsword named Bloodbeard, who is infamous for his brutality and has a dislike for the Tattered Prince, which in addition to one conflict where they fought each other leads to a very strained relationship between both sellsword companies. Also notable are the captains Caggo and D'han who are both very close to the Tattered Prince. Apart from them there is also Pretty Meris, who is said to be one of the most ruthless of the sellswords.

The slavers on the other hand are observed by the Windblown and in their dialogue they mock them and their troops. The only slaver that stands out is the Yellow Whale, who is very fat and incontinent, but the richest of the slavers. He has his main appearance in the Tyrion chapters. Other than that the slave troops all seem very ineffective, be it to sub par armor, weaponry or because they are actually chained together (I mean, what?). I do not want to go into more details here, as I do not think it is very important. It just gives a general idea of what kind of opponents Daenerys will face.

Other observations:

- Quentyn thinks again about Daenerys, but this time in relation to the rumors about her and the possibility of her being mad like her father. This only adds to his general worries about this topic and shows again, that there should probably have been more political advice from Doran before they went on the journey.

- He also thinks about the battle of Astapor and the things he saw there, which introduces him to the horrors of war. But he does not linger on it or is stunned by it. He also notes it to be his first real combat experience.

[SeanF]

A nice topic.

Quentyn reminds me a lot of me, at the age of 18. Fortunately, I survived to become more self-confident.

[Loic]

@Illuminated by Fire

Quentyn and Frog

Whoa, very interesting observation that I didn't notice.

Now that you point it out it's even more nice to reread about Theon/Reek, who actually changes his identity according to 'his mood' or Arya, who dismisses easily every identity she has until when she gradually becomes No One.

On the contrary, Tyrion is always "Tyrion Lannister" regardless of the identity or the role.

I wonder if something can be made of Daenerys, when she thinks of herself as Dany.

Also, it's true that Archibald generally doesn't partecipate in the discussions, but he's not that mindless, as we will see under Barristan's eyes!

[Chebyshov]

Gah! So much to say, but these past couple of days have been a bit overloaded. I first want to say, wonderful analysis! This chapter is so packed with interesting little tidbits, even though plotwise it is relatively straight forward. To quickly comment:

Interesting in this chapter is when Quentyn thinks of or refers to himself as Frog and when as Quentyn. He refers to himself as Frog when he thinks in term of his disguise as a squire, for example when Archibald gives him a command or thinking about the other sellswords, but not only then. He also does it when being insecure or being in a situation he has little experience with. On the other side he refers to himself as Quentyn when he thinks about his mission, his responsibilities and the expectations that others have of him. How that is weighed in a particular situation can change quickly:

“Daenerys may be halfway to Yunkai by now, with an army at her back,” Quentyn said as they walked amongst the horses.
[…]
Gerris took him by the arm. “Wait. A few more days, that's all. We have crossed half the world, be patient for a few more leagues. Somewhere north of Yunkai our chance will come.”
“If you say,” said Frog doubtfully.

Throughout the conversation he refers to himself as Quentyn, but by the end, when Gerris persuades him to wait longer, he refers to himself as Frog, as a sign of his doubts. Important here is, that two aspects are expressed through the same naming mechanism: One is how much he is immersed in his disguise and the other one is how confident he is in himself and in the situation he is in. And both aspects are in turn part of his self-image. Due to the ever changing situation and thoughts the use of the names changes often, which displays his uncertainty but also his focus on his task and the ever changing levels of immersion in his disguise.

I think this is an excellent point. Quentyn feels okay lacking in confidence as the subservient "Frog," but all the expectations and duty are place firmly on "Quentyn's" shoulders. It seems that he isn't really able to immerse himself in this disguise. We know from the last chapter that mummery "chafes" at him, and I think this may be no different. But now, mummery becomes an outlet for his anxiety. Quentyn & Crew are rapidly approaching their target destination, and with each passing day self-doubt is less and less appropriate. He is going to be tested soon. By divorcing "Quentyn" from his insecurities, our prince seems to be mentally preparing himself, determined to go through with the plan. It's not to say his "Quentyn" persona seems to be brimming with confidence, but certainly with focus.

I have much and more to say...hopefully tomorrow.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I think this is an excellent point. Quentyn feels okay lacking in confidence as the subservient "Frog," but all the expectations and duty are place firmly on "Quentyn's" shoulders. It seems that he isn't really able to immerse himself in this disguise. We know from the last chapter that mummery "chafes" at him, and I think this may be no different. But now, mummery becomes an outlet for his anxiety.

I think this is a great catch by Illuminating Fire and expansion by you. I feel that Quent actually is able to immerse himself in the Frog "disguise" though, because the role of "Frog" is more natural to him, and certainly less stressful for his personality. Quentyn sees himself as "Frog" when he is full of doubt, because I don't think he likes all the doubt. It is the same as when he was unable to come up with an alternative method of getting to Mereen and Gerris had to come up with a plan on the fly. Quentyn isn't great when trying to figure out whether to shit or get of the pot. Naturally, others begin making these decisions for him, but Quent is uneasy with being passive, even though being passive is natural for him.

We have here a person who is unhappy with who he is. "The Prince of Dorne" needs to be "this" way. Quentyn wants to be "this way". He wants to be confident, dominant, handsome, prince-charming. By going to his "role" as "Frog", Quentyn is able to somewhat escape the pressures put on him. It's OK for Frog to be doubtful.

By divorcing "Quentyn" from his insecurities, our prince seems to be mentally preparing himself, determined to go through with the plan. It's not to say his "Quentyn" persona seems to be brimming with confidence, but certainly with focus.

No one can ever say that Quentyn isn't determined. There is no quit in the boy.

[Hrafntýr]

Nice analysis, Illuminated by Fire! I really liked your insights on the Quentyn/Frog juxtaposition, as well as the further elaborations of the point by Chebyshov and Raving Stark the Mad. I’ll be interested to see if this juxtaposition continues in the remaining Quentyn chapters. The Frog moniker will still be fixed to Quent when he comes before Daenerys, when it takes on more significance than the “hop to it” meaning it is initially given. Of course “Frog” fits with his muddiness, the brown of new-turned earth, which on the face of things seems at odds with fire and blood (or at least with fire), a point that Barristan will make explicit for us.

[On “frogs” there’s also a curious little passage in this chapter, during the description of the grotesqueries of the Yunkai side, when they are discussing the Herons (the tall, stilt-walking troops).

“Some say that herons are majestic,” said Old Bill Bone.

“If your king eats frogs while standing on one leg.”

“Herons are craven,” the big man put in. “One time me and Drink and Cletus were hunting, and we came on these herons wading in the shallow, feasting on tadpoles and small fish. They made a pretty sight, aye, but then a hawk passed overhead, and they all took to the wing like they’d seen a dragon.”

Here frogs are presented as the prey of one predator, only for another predator, likened to a dragon, to scare off the first predator. I’m not sure what, if anything, to make of it, but it did strike me that we get a story that includes both frogs and dragons. But maybe it’s just to emphasize how stupid of an idea it is to put soldiers on stilts! And seriously, what’s up with the weirdo Yunkish companies, which comes across as totally over the top Orientalism?!]

I’m quite struck by the aptness of this chapter’s title, “The Windblown.” Yes, it’s the name of the sellsword company our party has joined, and the opening sentence refers to the “hot wind” of rumours of Daenerys, and emphasizes the swirl of hearsay that accords nicely with how little Quentyn’s band actually knows about Dany. But the title more powerfully seems to capture the leap that Quentyn and Co. have taken into the unpredictable: they’re to be blown by the winds of chance, they’re in a position where they will simply have to think on their feet, something that the first Quentyn chapter suggested Quent doesn’t much enjoy, at least not when the stakes are so high in terms of his duty. I mean, how did they really envision getting away from the Windblown to join Dany at all? And yet here they are, having rolled the dice, taken the necessary risk; things are at last in motion. It was the best option they could find for moving forward, and it would bring them into geographical proximity to Daenerys, but it didn’t do a whole lot to alleviate the uncertainties of their course, something I think the chapter title highlights. And of course, the Dornish Windblown will be blown right to Daenerys…The Gods are mad.

The chapter strikes me as transitional for Quentyn, in terms of his development, on account of his having rolled the dice. He still has his doubts, which he expresses at every opportunity, but to me at least he seems rather less “constipated” than he did in his first chapter. As he says when reminded that only he can hope to wed the dragon queen, “Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon.” Sure, his thoughts go then to the tales told about Daenerys, with their mix of sex and blood, and he wonders if he still must marry her if it turns out she’s mad and murderous (and here again his thoughts turn to his father, noting that his father hadn’t discussed what to do in the event that Dany should show herself to be crazy), but to me it seems like he’s no longer in avoidance mode.

This chapter also marks Quentyn’s first experience with the horrors of war: the gruesome conditions in Astapor, the butchery of the battlefield. He’s quite open about his inexperience, the fact that all he’d seen previously was the practice yard and the tourney ground, and as he describes his work of riding through the Astapori slave troops, cutting them down, he “realized that most were no older than he. Green boys screaming for their mothers.” Incidentally, we also see Quentyn as the least prepared for war of the trio, insofar as he’s the last to gear up for battle, his companions, already dressed, helping him into his armor.

A couple of other minor tidbits from the chapter:

More imagery of fire. As Quentyn thinks back to Astapor he notes, “And fires, fires everywhere. He could close his eyes and see them still: flames whirling from brick pyramids larger than any castle he had ever seen, plumes of greasy smoke coiling upward like great black snakes.” He likens the ashes on the wind to “fat grey snowflakes,” a comparison that I feel like we’ve seen before (perhaps in one of Mel’s visions, where ashes become snow?).

A little prefiguring, when we get a glimpse of Pretty Meris in the command tent:

“Meris will command you,” said the Tattered Prince. “She knows my mind in this…and Daenerys Targaryen may be more accepting of another woman.” Not to jump ahead too much, but during the attempted dragonnapping Quentyn will notice Viserion’s staring and sniffing at Meris and attribute it to Meris’ femaleness.

[Chebyshov]

Okay, finally found some time!

As in the first chapter Quentyn and his companions travel under a false identity to reach Daenerys in Meereen. We see that Quentyn finds himself in a follower role again, after posing as a servant in Volantis. How he got his name is another remark that following is natural for him, he does not merely pretend to be Archibald's squire, but is very quick about obeying him, too. The difference here is that in the Merchant's Man Quentyn was the one to suggest the ruse, or at least the change of roles, but this time it is Gerris' idea, with which he had a problem at the beginning

Very good point. This is a role that just comes naturally for him, literally earning the moniker because of the way he dutifully follows order. Arch says jump, Frog says "how high?" But as you said, it was Gerris's idea. Quentyn's objections to being squire seem to be stemming from a place of insecurity, with him pointing out "I earned my spurs." Quentyn certainly has nothing to prove to his friends, so I can't figure out why this would be such a sticking point for him. It kind of reminds me of when Gerris called him a constipated old man last chapter, and Quentyn's [silent] rebuttal was like "I'm younger than you."

Forgive me for not finding it, but didn't we learn that Quentyn was knighted by Anders, though his uncle Oberyn had offered to knight him earlier? Quentyn wanted to earn it himself, so his knighthood is certainly a source of pride. But the fact that Oberyn offers makes me wonder if Quentyn was a bit...behind the curve with these things. I mean, he didn't even don his armor without his friends helping him...

It's sad, because Quentyn is very self-aware that he's underwhelming, and yet, there's really no denying his muddiness. It's interesting that he still wants to push back against demeaning roles, even ones that keep him safe. He may lack in confidence but he does desire to be respected, at least in his own, passive, Quentyn way.

He clearly decides to leave their gold and armor behind to not be seen as exiles. There are arguments to be made for both decisions. On the one hand keeping their money would have helped for bribing people, better armor in case they get in a fight and they could have made a better appearance when finally speaking with Daenerys. On the other hand it would have made them much more noticeable and nearly impossible to just mingle with the other sellswords from Westeros. They would have drawn much more suspicion regarding their motives which is a big problem since the Windblown are fighting for Yunkai. But what is clear that these considerations are not Quentyn's reason for his choice. Instead, his reasons are moral ones, which is astounding considering they are planning to betray the Windblown to begin with, but more to that later.

Yes, he's a very moral player, and the idea of dishonorably turning cloaks is a point of anxiety for him as well. That girl who told him he had an "honest" face had no idea just how accurate her remark was.

Three Dornish Knights:
In contrast to this Gerris and Quentyn are working together to plan things out. At least in this chapter there are no rank issues with this, both are working together on an equal level and neither is dominant here, neither Quentyn because of his general doubts nor Gerris because of his lower social status. They are interacting as friends and companions instead. What is noticeable however is their different approach on planning that showed in the first chapter already: Gerris focuses on opportunities and looking in the future, making plans instead of examining them. But he also insists on following the plans once they are already mapped out. Quentyn however focuses on the problems that occur and points where the plans can go wrong in the short term. This interaction leads to something similar to a 'trial and error'-approach, which is best seen in the last chapter. But shades of this are also seen in the discussion about when to desert (the discussion is quite long, so I will not quote it here), where Quentyn says that they need to do it soon whereas Gerris advises patience. The reasons Quentyn wants to act quickly is that he worries about Archibald's reaction if they stay too long and the possibility that they find themselves fighting on the wrong sides. In short, what could go wrong in their current situation. Gerris advises patience because he has confidence in this plan and looks on the probabilities of situations occurring. 'Worst Case' versus 'Average Case' if you want to put it that way.

Yeah, they actually are great balancing acts for each other. But what's notable is that the roles they fall into still seem like leader and follower. Yeah, they're equals, so no one is talking down to the other and they value their view points. But Gerris is still the one making the proactive decisions, where Quentyn is appraising. It's a different skill-set and it's not to say one is better than the other in general. But when it comes to only one of them being able to "marry the girl," it does feel like the wrong one is the prince.

Quentyn thinks again about Daenerys, but this time in relation to the rumors about her and the possibility of her being mad like her father. This only adds to his general worries about this topic and shows again, that there should probably have been more political advice from Doran before they went on the journey.

One thing that really jumped out to me for that bit was how Quentyn thought, "must I still marry her" if that was the case, not "should." It's again hammering that this is not his choice, he doesn't want to be doing any of this, and it's all an obligation. He's not thinking for Dorne...

unlike Arianne's role in her TWOW mission. The woman is literally tasked with making a judgement call about the Griffs and deciding if Dornish troops will move to war. And Arianne has always been keen to think about what the passions and desires of her countrymen are. It's funny that the one assumed to be deprived of her birthright becomes the natural leader, and the one assumed to come into Dorne is the one who isn't up for the task.

Here frogs are presented as the prey of one predator, only for another predator, likened to a dragon, to scare off the first predator. I’m not sure what, if anything, to make of it, but it did strike me that we get a story that includes both frogs and dragons. But maybe it’s just to emphasize how stupid of an idea it is to put soldiers on stilts!

It could have also been very bald foreshadowing to how it all plays out? This isn't my strong suit, but great catch! Also yeah, wth were they thinking??

I’m quite struck by the aptness of this chapter’s title, “The Windblown.” Yes, it’s the name of the sellsword company our party has joined, and the opening sentence refers to the “hot wind” of rumours of Daenerys, and emphasizes the swirl of hearsay that accords nicely with how little Quentyn’s band actually knows about Dany. But the title more powerfully seems to capture the leap that Quentyn and Co. have taken into the unpredictable: they’re to be blown by the winds of chance, they’re in a position where they will simply have to think on their feet, something that the first Quentyn chapter suggested Quent doesn’t much enjoy, at least not when the stakes are so high in terms of his duty. I mean, how did they really envision getting away from the Windblown to join Dany at all? And yet here they are, having rolled the dice, taken the necessary risk; things are at last in motion. It was the best option they could find for moving forward, and it would bring them into geographical proximity to Daenerys, but it didn’t do a whole lot to alleviate the uncertainties of their course, something I think the chapter title highlights. And of course, the Dornish Windblown will be blown right to Daenerys…The Gods are mad.

Now I just want to sing that stupid Windblown song again. This is great, all of this is great. It's funny, because Quentyn never just gets his name for his chapters, but they're all so damn fitting. Arianne doesn't either (maybe in TWOW, but I don't know if that's certain), so I have to assume that's to invite direct parallels?

The chapter strikes me as transitional for Quentyn, in terms of his development, on account of his having rolled the dice. He still has his doubts, which he expresses at every opportunity, but to me at least he seems rather less “constipated” than he did in his first chapter. As he says when reminded that only he can hope to wed the dragon queen, “Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon.” Sure, his thoughts go then to the tales told about Daenerys, with their mix of sex and blood, and he wonders if he still must marry her if it turns out she’s mad and murderous (and here again his thoughts turn to his father, noting that his father hadn’t discussed what to do in the event that Dany should show herself to be crazy), but to me it seems like he’s no longer in avoidance mode.

Yeah, he is plagued with doubts, which he kind of can compartmentalize and place onto Frog. I think that might actually help with his determination, but he's also like, on a train that he can't get off. He has to come to terms with this sooner or later. He seems more resigned here, for a certainty.

Okay, okay, so it wouldn't be me if I didn't talk about either Quentyn vs. Arianne or Quentyn vs. vaginas. I've opted for the latter for tonight, though I may come back and do the former, because I see some parallels that can be drawn to her Queenmaker chapter.

Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon. The more Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meeting. The Yunkai’i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. Beans laughed at that but relished the tales of the silver queen’s promiscuity. “One of her captains comes of a line where the men have foot-long members,” he told them, “but even he’s not big enough for her. She rode with the Dothraki and grew accustomed to being fucked by stallions, so now no man can fill her.” And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. “Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She’s broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood.”

Okay, yes, clearly Quentyn focuses on the madness, as he should. But I can't help notice even the story about her violent nature includes a description of her "smooth and supple skin," and the "madness" is paired with talks of her promiscuity. In fact this entire section is basically Quentyn fearing about meeting some crazed randy lady. Is this probably more indicative Beans's misogyny? Sure. Though in the context of Quentyn's thoughts about having to marry Dany last chapter, back when he only thought of her as the "most beautiful woman in the world," the stories about this nympho with killer dragons has to be terrifying. I'm definitely going to keep this in mind for their meeting, even if we don't get it through the eyes of Ser Mud.

[Illuminated by Fire]

Okay, finally found some time!

Very good point. This is a role that just comes naturally for him, literally earning the moniker because of the way he dutifully follows order. Arch says jump, Frog says "how high?" But as you said, it was Gerris's idea. Quentyn's objections to being squire seem to be stemming from a place of insecurity, with him pointing out "I earned my spurs." Quentyn certainly has nothing to prove to his friends, so I can't figure out why this would be such a sticking point for him. It kind of reminds me of when Gerris called him a constipated old man last chapter, and Quentyn's [silent] rebuttal was like "I'm younger than you."

Forgive me for not finding it, but didn't we learn that Quentyn was knighted by Anders, though his uncle Oberyn had offered to knight him earlier? Quentyn wanted to earn it himself, so his knighthood is certainly a source of pride. But the fact that Oberyn offers makes me wonder if Quentyn was a bit...behind the curve with these things. I mean, he didn't even don his armor without his friends helping him...

I looked in the wiki, one source was the Worldbook which I do not have, but the other one is the chapter 'The Soiled Knight' which gives us the following quote:

Ser Arys had yet to meet Quentyn Martell. The prince had been fostered by Lord Yronwood from a tender age, had served him as a page, then a squire, had even taken knighthood at his hands in preference to the Red Viper's.

There is no mention of a timeline, although the Worldbook could have something about this. This quote reads more like: He was found ready for knighthood at a certain point and he had the choice of being knighted by Yronwood or Oberyn and chose the former. That sounds like he just chose the family he essentially grew up with over his actual one, which tells us something about the bond between the Yronwoods and Quentyn, but nothing about his skill at arms. That he declined to be knighted by Oberyn could have something to do with his reputation, but I do not get the vibe from Quentyn that he would judge his uncle like that. Still, it is a possibility. I would generally be careful to assume that he is bad or untalented at something only because of his general insecurities he has at that point. It is easy to see everything from this perspective, but not particularly beneficial. Nothing I read in the first two chapters gives me the impression that he is a sub par warrior, or a particularly good one. He is just inexperienced in actual war situations and is not used to wake up at the shortest notice. And to the armor: It is a hassle to put that on yourself, depending on what you are using. I had the pleasure to wear a plate armor once, and I am glad that I did not need to put it on myself (but that depends on the armor).

Regarding the squire situation, that is really quite simple: He is a prince, that is what he was born as. But being a knight is something he has earned, it is his main accomplishment of his life so far (which is, to be noted, nothing unusual) for which he worked for years. And since disguises are not very natural for him, he takes it as an offence. Personally, I am not sure how I would have reacted if someone had made that demand from me. And he is probably far from the only knight who would have reacted that way. Keep in mind that knighthood and adulthood most likely came hand in hand, so posing as a squire for him is a bit like posing as a child.

Yeah, they actually are great balancing acts for each other. But what's notable is that the roles they fall into still seem like leader and follower. Yeah, they're equals, so no one is talking down to the other and they value their view points. But Gerris is still the one making the proactive decisions, where Quentyn is appraising. It's a different skill-set and it's not to say one is better than the other in general. But when it comes to only one of them being able to "marry the girl," it does feel like the wrong one is the prince.

Gerris is defnitely the proactive one, he even said it himself in the first chapter. But I do not think leader and follower really fits. You are the leader if you make the calls at the end. So far Quentyn has agreed to Gerris' plans, so you could argue about that, but he still gave his approval. And in the later chapters we should see that social rank still matters, even when they are on their own (but I do not want to anticipate the other chapters). I think that 'trial and error' fits better, but admittedly more in the first chapter. Gerris gives an idea and Quentyn points out the flaws. That was how it worked as they did need a new plan.

One thing that really jumped out to me for that bit was how Quentyn thought, "must I still marry her" if that was the case, not "should." It's again hammering that this is not his choice, he doesn't want to be doing any of this, and it's all an obligation. He's not thinking for Dorne...

unlike Arianne's role in her TWOW mission. The woman is literally tasked with making a judgement call about the Griffs and deciding if Dornish troops will move to war. And Arianne has always been keen to think about what the passions and desires of her countrymen are. It's funny that the one assumed to be deprived of her birthright becomes the natural leader, and the one assumed to come into Dorne is the one who isn't up for the task.

Yes, that is definitely true. For him it is a duty, for Arianne it is her wish. To be fair, he is not in a situation where he can worry too much about the political situation in Dorne itself, because he has no influence over it whatsoever and it does not really concern it actual mission. But I agree with the gist of it, it is defnitely not anything he wants to do.

Okay, okay, so it wouldn't be me if I didn't talk about either Quentyn vs. Arianne or Quentyn vs. vaginas. I've opted for the latter for tonight, though I may come back and do the former, because I see some parallels that can be drawn to her Queenmaker chapter.

Okay, yes, clearly Quentyn focuses on the madness, as he should. But I can't help notice even the story about her violent nature includes a description of her "smooth and supple skin," and the "madness" is paired with talks of her promiscuity. In fact this entire section is basically Quentyn fearing about meeting some crazed randy lady. Is this probably more indicative Beans's misogyny? Sure. Though in the context of Quentyn's thoughts about having to marry Dany last chapter, back when he only thought of her as the "most beautiful woman in the world," the stories about this nympho with killer dragons has to be terrifying. I'm definitely going to keep this in mind for their meeting, even if we don't get it through the eyes of Ser Mud.

Of course it is misogyny, but that comes kind of with the territory in sellsword companies. Just look at Pretty Merris. And a correction: He is fearing about meeting some crazed randy lady with dragons. While I do not doubt that the whole thing about her being extremely beautiful and the rumors of her being promiscuous make him very nervous, I think in context of her madness he would be glad, if the rumors would turn out to be true, to not be beautiful enough to get noticed. The possibility of her madness is defnitely the main point here, which is understandable after Aerys.

[Chebyshov]

Okay, before the next section drops tomorrow, I felt that it was time for some good ol’ comparisons between Quentyn and Arianne. His chapter strongly reminded me of her Queenmaker chapter, because they’re both en route for their respective missions, and both exhibiting anxiety. But the parallels/pointed differences are marked.

*quick note, but if you haven’t read Dornish Vinegar’s amazing analysis of the QM chapter, do it immediately.

Arianne’s internal monologues throughout her QM chapter seem a bit uh, grandiose. She fixates on the “spirit” of her mission and her strong belief in its purpose:

You will need bitter steel and more, brother, if you think to set me aside.
…
Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

Arianne also displays an increasing confidence with her plans as the pieces start to click into place for her:

We are seven, Arianne realized as they rode. She had not thought of that before, but it seemed a good omen for their cause. Seven riders on their way to glory. One day the singers will make all of us immortal.

Quentyn, on the other hand, is constantly concerned and assessing everything that could go wrong:

If Daenerys is as murdeous as her father, must I still marry her?
…
The real fight will be on us soon, and we must be away before it comes, or we’ll find ourselves fighting on the wrong side.

He is antsy, wanting to jump away from the group earlier than it makes sense, and yet, he’s also fearing the end:
Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon.

Arianne’s mind is continually working and thinking about her next step, confiding in no one and pointedly keeping bits of information from her co-conspirators:

The next part should be slow and simple, she thought, up the Greenblood and onto the Vaith, as far as a poleboat can go. That would give her time enough to prepare Myrcella for all that was to come. Beyond Vaith the deep sands waited. They would need help from Sandstone and the Hellholt to make that crossing, but she did not doubt that it would be forthcoming. The Red Viper had been fostered at Sandstone, and Prince Oberyn’s paramour Ellaria Sand was Lord Uller’s natural daughter; four of the Sand Snakes were his granddaughters. I will crown Myrcella at the Hellholt and raise my banners there.

And similarly to Quentyn, she has to adapt to continually changing conditions:

That was a shock. “Dead?”

“Murdered by the Imp. The queen has assumed the regency.”

“Has she?” A woman on the Iron Throne? Arianne thought about that for a moment and decided it was all to the good. If the lords of the Seven Kingdoms grew accustomed to Queen Cersei’s rule, it would be that much easier for them to bend their knees to Queen Myrcella. And Lord Tywin had been a dangerous foe; without him, Dorne’s enemies would be much weaker. Lannisters are killing Lannisters, how sweet. “What became of the dwarf?”

She takes in new information, appraises the situation, and in the end is the one deciding the best path of action.

Quentyn, too, faces continually changing circumstances, by nature of traveling with fickle sellswords into an unknown land. However, each step of the way he appeals to Gerris for help, and Gerris is the one making the decisions and formulating the plans.

“Daenerys may be halfway to Yunkai by now, with an army at her back,” Quentyn said as they walked amongst the horses.
[…]
Gerris took him by the arm. “Wait. A few more days, that's all. We have crossed half the world, be patient for a few more leagues. Somewhere north of Yunkai our chance will come.”
“If you say,” said Frog doubtfully.

So what are we to draw from this? For one, it’s important to note that neither Quentyn’s woo-Dany plan nor Arianne’s QM plan work. However, Quentyn’s (or really Gerris’s) Windblown plan does.

Arianne’s QM plot is undone by her misunderstanding of her father’s true nature. Her QM plot was carefully planned, and we see her exhibiting all the “positive traits” in a leader: initiative, intellect, adaptation, and a focus on the endgame. And yet, it turns to shit. Quentyn does display some positive traits, as we have been quick to point out: honorable, quick to appraise risk, etc. Yet he does not display proactivity or even the ability to form suitable plans. He is again is all-too-fitting a follower, which is detrimental to his plan. And yet, the Windblown ruse works…in fact, a solution kind of falls into his lap, which I would argue, is a touch unearned.

I don’t really want to get too far ahead and talk about Quentyn’s ultimate fate vs. Arianne’s, but it’s seeming to me that their stories invite parallels because they move in an opposite trajectory. What are we to make of Tatters dumping a perfect solution onto Quentyn? And even though we can demonstrate how Arianne outshines Quentyn in her natural leadership, was Martin trying to make a point with her failure juxtaposed to Quetyn’s “success” here?

Or am I just such a Martell fangirl that I’m going to blow any vaguely appropriate comparisons out of proportion…

[Hrafntýr]

Nice analysis of the Quentyn/Arianne parallels, Chebyshov! I'll be returning to some of those very passages for my own little Quent/Arianne comparison when I kick off discussion of the Dragontamer chapter (which in some ways is a closer comparison, in that the dragonnapping plot is Q's own plan).

I think there are some important differences in Q's and A's situations that should probably be born in mind in comparing their respective plots and how they resolve. Arianne is on her home turf: we see her at home on the sands, a skilled rider, knowing how to handle the elements, and, perhaps most importantly, with solid knowledge of all the parties involved in her plan. Quent's chapters have thus far emphasized the absolute foreignness of his situation, from the non-seafaring Dornish having to cope with sailing, to the strange exoticness of Volantis, and most importantly, the absolute lack of knowledge. This last is emphasized at the start of "The Windblown" and resurfaces throughout: nobody, including the commanders of the Yunkai and their sellsword companies, knows jack about what Daenerys is doing, it's all just a swirl of rumour.

I do think very highly of Arianne's ability to plan and to execute her plan, and think that she was playing a game she thought she could win (to use Doran's phrase), based upon pretty darn solid knowledge of the political situation (except for that bit about Doran's secret plans!). We know Doran's preference for studying the board and its pieces, getting all the info before he moves, and we've suggested that Quentyn is much like this, which makes it all the more baffling that he's in this situation with absolutely no knowledge nor any means of acquiring knowledge. Not to beat a dead horse, but it does yet again raise the question: what was Doran thinking, to make this uncharacteristically risky move of acting without any certain information? Quent really is in an impossible situation. I genuinely do wonder what Arianne would be like in the same situation, taken out of Dorne and thrown into a wildly different cultural context and political situation, into the midst of a war that involves completely foreign players and shadowy alliances. Yes, we see Arianne take in the info about Tywin's murder, and quickly assess it for its pertinence to her own plan, but I suspect that it may be easier for a Westerosi prince or princess to comprehend the relevance of Westeros-specific info like this than figuring out, for example, how the elections in Volantis will impact a gathering war in Meereen (or how the war in Meereen affects the Volantis elections, for that matter) and how that may in turn affect a plan to pay court to Dany in Meereen. [As an aside, I think that the way in which Quentyn is rather "at sea" in this foreign context somewhat parallels Dany's own inability to fully understand the political forces operative within Meereen: she's somewhat "windblown" as well.]

Another point of comparison between these siblings' plots: both involve "using" other people in order to achieve their ends. Arianne manages to convince herself that her plot is not only in her best interest, but also Myrcella's, although we get Illyrio's possibly more correct assessment of the situation in his conversation with Tyrion: to crown Myrcella is to kill her. Arianne only retrospectively considers how she put others in harms way. Quent, for his part, feels guilt for using the Windblown, though it's not as if his actions threaten anything but his own personal sense of honor (it's not like the Windblown will be defeated or something because they lost three soldiers!).

[Raving Stark the Mad]

ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων

“Character is destiny”

-Heraclitus, Fragment 119

Sometimes an outside perspective is illuminating. In this essay I will explore the character of Quentyn Martell through the eyes of Daenarys and Barristan Selmy. My goal will be to better inform us about Quentyn, rather than inform us about Dany or Barry. I do not want to delve deeply into the character either Dany or Barry, but it is impossible to separate entirely how they see Quent from who they are.

First, I would like to present an overview of how various characters see and describe Quentyn, from their inner POVs, and from their dialogue. From there I will go over the actions and dialogue that concern Quentyn in the three chapters in question.

Part I

Quentyn: Traits

I’d like to start by going over physical descriptions of Quentyn, provided by both Dany and Barristan Selmy. The very first impression that Dany forms of Quentyn is a physical one. The descriptors she uses:

Stocky

Brown hair

Brown eyes

Squarish face

High forehead

Heavy jaw

Broad nose

Stubble

Later Dany summarizes her physical impression of Quentyn with a simple “not a handsome man”. Quentyn also seems to possibly have alcohol flush reaction, and very easily blushes when emotional.

It’s interesting to note that even before the first physical descriptions she gives, she labels Quentyn as “the least impressive” when comparing him physically to Gerris and Arch. You could say this is an unfair comparison, since most people would probably be the least impressive standing next to Gerris, who is apparently quite the looker, and Arch, who is very physically impressive in terms of height and build. The comparison really doesn’t tell us anything directly about Quentyn, other than the fact that he breaks the #1 rule of looking attractive: Never hang out with people who look better than you.

Selmy describes Quentyn similarly, but much more briefly. The descriptors he uses:

Short

Stocky

Plain-faced

Without getting directly into the matter of Quentyn’s attractiveness, we can see draw some conclusions from the similarities between Dany’s and Selmy’s descriptions.

After looking at the physical descriptions of Quentyn given by others, we can look at descriptions of Quentyn’s character and personality by others. Dany describes Quent as:

Solemn

Pleasant

Well-spoken

(Un-enchanting)

Foolish

Here we see a mix of positive and negative descriptions. Dany never describes Quent as “un-enchanting” specifically, but does describe him as “neither enchanted nor enchanted, alas”. It is unclear if her judgment of him being “un-enchanting is either a reference to him physically or if it is a criticism of his character. I’ve chosen to place it among the character descriptions because of my personal opinion that an individual may be “enchanting” while not being physically appealing.

Selmy describes Quent as:

Decent

Sober

Sensible

Dutiful

Stubborn

Here we see another group of very positive terms used by Barry to describe Quent. It seems on this, Barry and Dany seem to agree that Quent is basically a good person. It also seems clear that both of them seem to regard Quent as lacking sex appeal. That he is “not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster” seems to be true from Dany’s perspective.

There are other characters who give limited descriptions of their impression of Quentyn, and it seems to be the one point that every single character can agree on. From Daario, Dany, Selmy, and Skahaz, what they all can agree on is that Quentyn is young. He is “a boy”, “the boy”, “lad”, all the way to “a pup” and “mewling boy”.

Youth, in and of itself is neither a positive or negative trait. Both Dany and Jon Snow are extremely young characters who are habitually referred to as “a girl”, or “a boy”. But in both cases, it is usually to the referrer’s detriment if the reference is made to their face. It does seem to highlight the difficulty that Quentyn faces in accomplishing his mission. Despite being “a man grown” and a knight, he is a boy in experience. His inexperience is what all people notice about him, and will be his greatest challenge and character aspect most tied with his eventual failure.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The Breakdown:

After taking a quick look at the way the other characters perceive Quentyn, I want to move into an action by action analysis of Quentyn in the three chapters in question.

At this point Dany has been laid up in Mereen for many months, after the initial conquest of the city. Since then, she now faces a violent resistance movement by citizens of the former upper class/nobility. Externally she is best by a coalition of Yunkai, Qartheen, and soon Volantines. In addition, dysentery has come with the arrival of refugees and the enemy armies.

Dany is now desperate for a political solution to the problems that now beset her inside, and outside her city. In order to facilitate this, she has turned to Hizdahr zo Loraq, a young Mereenese nobleman, who has promised to solve Dany’s problems in return for her hand in marriage.

Part II

Daenarys VII

We will first see Quentyn through the eyes of Dany in Mereen. Dany decides to hold court, after Daario convinces her. The Dornish will be the last petitioners she will see, after a long day of holding court. Quentyn has finally reached the goal of his quest. It is now “showtime”.

After introducing the rest of the new Westerosi Windblown turned Stormcrows, Daario finally comes to the three Dornishmen. He introduces them as Greenguts, Gerrold, and Frog, and we get Dany’s first impression of all of them.

Greenguts was huge and bald as a stone, with arms thick enough to rival even Strong Belwas.

Gerrold was a lean, tall youth with sun streaks in his hair and laughing blue-green eyes. That smile has won many a maiden’s heart, I’ll wager. His cloak was made of soft brown wool lined with sandsilk, a goodly garment.

Frog, the squire, was the youngest of the three, and the least impressive, a solemn, stocky lad, brown of hair and eye. His face was squarish, with a high forehead, heavy jaw, and broad nose. The stubble on his cheeks and chin made him look like a boy trying to grow his first beard. Dany had no inkling why anyone would call him Frog. Perhaps he can jump farther than the others.

From this except we get Dany’s initial physical appraisal of Quentyn. Quent has the misfortune of being somewhat less physically impressive than his compatriots, though most men are less physically impressive than either Gerris Drinkwater or Archibald Yronwood.

After questioning Greenguts and Gerrold, Gerris begins to let the cat out of the bag when questioned about the state of their knighthood, alluding to the fact that all three of the Dornishmen are knights, as opposed to only Archibald who had been the only one posing as a knight while hiding amongst the Windblown. This has the unfortunate adverse effect of pissing off Daario, even before he finds out why Quentyn is there.

After their knighthood and identities are questioned by Barry and Dany, Gerris requests a more private audience, which Dany agrees to.

While up to now Quent has not done or said anything at all, his silence is thunderous. It isn’t what Quent is doing, but what he is not doing, or rather, what he is letting Gerris do. He is letting Gerris continue as the “face-man”, or as his “herald” for as long as he can. The moment Gerris lets Dany know that “we are all three knights”, the game is up, and Quentyn can step forward as the “leader” of the expedition. But Quentyn does not. He lets Gerris do the talking for him.

This may spring from a lack of confidence in his speaking ability, or lack of confidence in his overall presentation. Is this lack of confidence unfounded? One can easily argue that the ability to understand one’s own weaknesses and the strengths of others is a good trait in a leader, and delegation is not a sin of an effective manager.

One thing is certain. By playing it safe by having Gerris do all the talking, Quentyn loses any ability to begin to impress Dany in any way with his persona before his proposal via written agreement. He seamlessly transitions from hidden leadership to his natural “hands off” management style. Considering what we know of Quentyn, it is likely that he would not have been able to impress Dany any more than he did if he had taken a stronger role earlier in the conversation. The symptom, the lack of confidence, has an underlying cause.

After clearing her court, the party begins to introduce themselves by their true names, with Quentyn waiting to be last.

“And you, ser?” the queen asked the boy called Frog.

“If it please Your Grace, may I first present my gift?”

“If you wish,” Daenerys said, curious, but as Frog started forward Daario Naharis stepped in front of him and held out a gloved hand. “Give this gift to me.”

Stone-faced, the stocky lad bent, unlaced his boot, and drew a yellowed parchment from a hidden flap within.

“This is your gift? A scrap of writing?” Daario snatched the parchment out of the Dornishman’s hands and unrolled it, squinting at the seals and signatures.

Before introducing himself, Quent decides to present the secret pact first. This seems to speak volumes without Quent saying anything at all. Quent has always believed that the one ace in the hole he had, the one way he was going to win over “the most beautiful woman in the world”, was with the advantages of the political alliance, and the concept that Dany “must” honor the agreement. This falls straight back into Quent’s lack of confidence in himself. He will not even present himself until the agreement itself is presented. He hopes that nothing about himself, or anything he does, is key to the success of the mission.

There does seem to be some merit to Quent’s line of thinking. Dany is certainly not marrying Hizdahr because she loves him, though it seems he’s not exactly hard to look at either. Dany is certainly not marrying Daario despite the fact that she is extremely attracted to him and he apparently has no problems satisfying her physically. Nevertheless, Quentyn has again managed to limit his options by taking himself out of the equation almost immediately, which no one else ever quite does, including Dany.

The other interesting action here is Quentyn’s lack of response and passivity in the face of Daario. Daario is already pissed at Quentyn and is taking an opportunity to embarrass him publically. Quentyn, possibly believing that he cannot be embarrassed by a sellsword, in addition to being “stone-faced”, “solemn”, and “stoic”, seems to take all this in stride. Quentyn does not care, is unable to defend himself, or simply submits to Daario’s treatment.

This seems to be partly due to Quentyn’s natural passivity. He’s not the aggressive dominant type. He is polite to a fault and something of a gentleman. This allows Daario to walk all over him without a peep in response. While this behavior by Daario does not impress Dany or Barristan, Quentyn’s politeness does not seem to impress anyone either.

Following this, Dany commands Daario to hand her the parchment, which she proceeds to read and announce to her court the existence of the secret alliance between Dorne and her brother, Viserys; an alliance to be sealed by marriage.

It is here, after the presentation of the alliance, and it’s ramifications for Dany, that Quentyn decides to come out from behind the curtain.

“My father was content to wait for the day that Prince Viserys found his army.”

“Your father?”

“Prince Doran.” He sank back onto one knee. “Your Grace, I have the honor to be Quentyn Martell, a prince of Dorne and your most leal subject.”

Dany laughed.

This was probably not the response that Quentyn was hoping for. Quentyn is all courtesy, politeness, and breeding; sinking to one knee and pledging that he is Dany’s “most leal subject”. Dany’s response, due to the novelty of the situation surrounding Quentyn’s nickname, “frog”, has the further result of unintentionally embarrassing Quentyn.

The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks.

“Radiance?” said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. “Why do you laugh?”

“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.”

The embarrassment is probably another symptom of Quentyn’s own low self-image when it comes to women, and his fear of failure. From here it continues to get worse for Quent.

Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue.

“Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

“No, Your Grace.”

“I feared as much.” Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he’s the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair.

I suppose there are ways that Quentyn could have been worse at pleading his troth. He was polite and as earnest as he could possibly be. Unfortunately, this doesn’t make an outstanding impression on Dany.

Much has been made of this inner dialogue in analyzing Dany. Some see it as proof that Dany rejects Quentyn because she finds him unattractive. I’d like to stick to the subject matter, the character of Quentyn, rather than the character of Daenarys Stormborn, so I find it sufficient to simply point out that she finds him unappealing.

This lack of appeal is partly physical, and partly due to his personality. It is also a very subjective subject, though I suspect that most 16 year old girls would probably agree with her that Quentyn is by and large, not a heart-throb.

“You have come for a kiss, however. You mean to marry me. Is that the way of it? The gift you bring me is your own sweet self. Instead of Viserys and your sister, you and I must seal this pact if I want Dorne.”

“My father hoped that you might find me acceptable.”

“Daddy thought you might like me” is probably one of the least romantic things to say to a woman you have just proposed to. Quentyn has always understood that he wasn’t exactly Prince Charming. But it’s interesting that he makes no attempt to shore up his weakness, he instead tries to play up his strength. In this case, he believes the strength of his proposal lies not in his personal or physical appeal, but in the political-military advantage he confers.

Being aware of one’s shortcomings is certainly admirable. But in this case, Quent doesn’t really take a good look at his shortcomings and become aware of why they exist, or do anything about improving himself. Being short and stocky without a pretty face does not doom an individual to a life of celibacy; just ask Salman Rushdie or Robin Williams.

It’s likely that Quentyn mistakenly believes that his lack of appeal is entirely due to his physical attributes, and thus does not believe he can change it. It’s also possible that Quentyn, who is already naturally shy and passive, and does not seem to enjoy acting, is uncomfortable with adjusting his personality at this point.

The immediate result of his proposal is to invoke the full wrath of Daario Naharis.

Daario Naharis gave a scornful laugh. “I say you are a pup. The queen needs a man beside her, not a mewling boy. You are no fit husband for a woman such as her. When you lick your lips, do you still taste your mother’s milk?”

While certainly harsh, it is also undeniable that Quentyn is a boy compared to most of the other men in her life. Daario, Drogo, Jorah, and Hizdahr are all fully realized men, and Quentyn’s lack of experience and self-realization is brought to the fore by the contrast. But what Daario said was obviously insulting, and was meant as such.

Ser Gerris Drinkwater darkened at his words. “Mind your tongue, sellsword. You are speaking to a prince of Dorne.”

“And to his wet nurse, I am thinking.” Daario brushed his thumbs across his sword hilts and smiled dangerously.

Notice that Gerris, who was initially taking the lead in the introduction with Dany, is now the one to defend Quentyn after being insulted by Daario. Quent never says a word in his own defense. It’s unsure if he even flushed.

I see this again as another example of Quent’s passivity, and his non-confrontational personality. These are certainly admirable qualities, at specific times. But the inability to speak up and protect oneself can lend doubt as to whether the individual is capable of defending anyone at all. I think the situation that Quentyn was in was not one of the times that being non-confrontational was a plus.

Skahaz and Reznak chime in with their own negative opinions of Quentyn’s proposal, though none of their comments deal with Quent’s physical attractiveness. Skahaz’s main objection, while calling Quentyn “a boy”, is that he’s not Ghiscari. Reznak does not even have a negative comment about Quentyn at all, instead choosing to attack the geology and fauna of Dorne, which elicits an interesting reply.

“I know of this Dorne,” said Reznak mo Reznak. “Dorne is sand and scorpions, and bleak red mountains baking in the sun.”

Prince Quentyn answered him. “Dorne is fifty thousand spears and swords, pledged to our queen’s service.”

I find it interesting that Quentyn does not say a peep when called a mewling boy with breastmilk on his lips, but rises immediately in defense of his homeland when it is disparaged. Quentyn is NOT completely passive. He does seemingly have pride in his homeland and it’s people. Yet this again throws into contrast that he does not seem to have this level of pride in himself.

The source of Quentyn’s lack of self-confidence, low self-esteem, remains something of a mystery. There are many theories that abound that have been covered in this thread and others. I will save my thoughts for the conclusion.

After Quent stresses the political advantage that Dorne brings to Daenarys, Daario immediately points out that said advantage is useless in Slaver’s Bay; an opinion that Dany shares. Dorne cannot solve her problems in Mereen. Allthough Dany always treats Quentyn with respect, and demands that he be treated with respect by her court, she finally drops the hammer on Quentyn.

She turned to the Dornishmen. “Would that you had come a year ago. I am pledged to wed the noble Hizdahr zo Loraq.”

Ser Gerris said, “It is not too late—”

It is Gerris that makes the final argument to Dany; that she can still change her mind. This is a sentiment also expressed by Missandei and Selmy . We do not hear from Quentyn again for the remainder of the scene. We are left to guess for ourselves the immediate impact of Dany’s rejection, and the possible failure of his mission. Quentyn’s worst fears are coming true. But one thing is for certain, Quentyn has not yet given up.

After the audience Dany retires to confer with Ser Barristan and Daario. They have different impressions of the Dornish proposal. Ser Barristan believes that the proposal changes the political options available. Daario is still angry and being deceived and is probably threatened by another suitor for Dany. Dany on the other hand dismisses whatever future impact the Dornish proposal can provide, and focuses squarely on the problems besetting her in the here and in the now.

In the morning, Dany prepares for and departs the Great Pyramid for her wedding, deciding to ride in a sedan chair to the Temple of the Graces. In the courtyard of the Great Pyramid she meets the rest of her escort, including Barristan Selmy, who is talking with the three Dornishmen.

The three Dornishmen were with him, talking, but they broke off when the queen appeared. Their prince went to one knee. “Your Grace, I must entreat you. My father’s strength is failing, but his devotion to your cause is as strong as ever. If my manner or my person have displeased you, that is my sorrow, but—”

Here is Quent’s reaction to the refusal. He immediately goes to one knee, always polite and courteous, and proceeds to “entreat” her. He blames himself, his person: “If my manner or my person has displeased you” and apologizes. This seems to imply that Quent really wasn’t listening when Dany politely refused his proposal. Dany has never (out loud) expressed any displeasure with Quent, and lays the refusal of the proposal directly on its timing. Not only does Quentyn miss the stated reason for the refusal, but he is unable to perceive the underlying reason for the refusal; the current political problems that Dany is facing in Mereen.

Quentyn is being blinded by his own low self-confidence, and his lack of awareness. He seems to be unable to perceive Dany’s actual point of view on the matter. This leaves him unable to actually present himself favorably, or any other solutions to her problem, because he seems to believe the problem is “himself”.

In addition to apologizing for his lack of sex appeal, his primary argument is to pull out the failing health of his father. This brings us back to Quentyn’s sense of duty, his dedication to his father, and his fear of failure. Quentyn is desperate, and this is his final gambit. But Dany does not share in Quentyn’s dedication to his father, and Quentyn is unable to see what Dany cares about as strongly as he cares about his duty. While Quentyn is dedicated to his father, his mission, and fears returning home a failure, Dany is dedicated to her “children”, the people she has freed in Slaver’s Bay, and fears their death and enslavement.

In the end, Quentyn’s final shot misses the mark. Cue Eminem’s “Lose Yourself”. Did Quentyn have an opportunity? Debateable. The hour was late when Quentyn arrived. If there was a chance, no matter how small, to convince Dany to forego the wedding to Hizdahr, all should agree that Quentyn was not the boy/man for the job. Could Quentyn have done a much better job? Certainly. But then would he still have been Quentyn?

“If you would please me, ser, be happy for me,” Daenerys said. “This is my wedding day. They will be dancing in the Yellow City, I do not doubt.” She sighed. “Rise, my prince, and smile. One day I shall return to West-eros to claim my father’s throne, and look to Dorne for help. But on this day the Yunkai’i have my city ringed in steel. I may die before I see my Seven Kingdoms. Hizdahr may die. Westeros may be swallowed by the waves.” Dany kissed his cheek. “Come. It’s time I wed.”

So passes the critical point of the quest of Quentyn and co. But the Mud Prince is not finished. As we will see, and as Ser Barristan will explain; the Dornish can be stubborn.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Part III

Daenarys VIII

When next we see Quentyn, Dany is at her wedding feast/reception, located in a large hall within the Great Pyramid. After a chance but interesting meeting with Brown Ben Plumm, Dany summons Ser Barristan, and begins to make contingency plans and lay the ground work for the assassination of the captain of the Second Sons, and feeling out some of the other sellsword companies.

It is during the planning to release the captured members of the Stormcrows that Ser Barristan again brings up “the Dornish road”.

“The Dornish road?” Dany sighed. The three Dornishmen had been at the feast, as befit Prince Quentyn’s rank, though Reznak had taken care to seat them as far as possible from her husband. Hizdahr did not seem to be of a jealous nature, but no man would be pleased by the presence of a rival suitor near his new bride. “The boy seems pleasant and well spoken, but …”

Dany acknowledges that she does not find Quentyn repulsive. He is “pleasant and well spoken”. But she is unable to complete her thought.

“It would please me if he had turned up with these fifty thousand swords he speaks of. Instead he brings two knights and a parchment. Will a parchment shield my people from the Yunkai’i? If he had come with a fleet …”

This seems to make clear some things. I suspect that Dany doesn’t even want a husband. She already has a lover she is perfectly happy with. What she wants is a political solution to her problems in Mereen, and she is obviously willing to marry someone who can provide the solution. There are definitive problems in this method, but we have to stick to Quentyn, and not stray into Dany.

“Dorne is too far away. To please this prince, I would need to abandon all my people. You should send him home.”

“Dornishmen are notoriously stubborn, Your Grace. Prince Quentyn’s forebears fought your own for the better part of two hundred years. He will not go without you.”

Then he will die here, Daenerys thought, unless there is more to him than I can see.

This excerpt is full of diamonds. Dany makes it clear that she cannot forsake “her people” in Mereen, thus the “Dornish option” is unacceptable. Barry makes it clear that he expects Quent to conform to stereotype and be stubborn, and not leave without her.

Here, due to the support of Ser Barristan, Dany is about to give Quent a mulligan. He will have a second shot to impress her. It is important that HERE, Dany specifically stresses that for the Dornish option to have any ability to happen, Quentyn is going to have to impress her with HIMSELF, because the political advantage he brings to the table is nill here in Mereen, and she already knows what he looks like and it does not seem to factor into her decision.

“Is he still within?”

“Drinking with his knights.”

“Bring him to me. It is time he met my children.”

Here, we have climax part II. The success or failure of Quentyn’s quest truly does depend on his CHARACTER. It is his destiny.

Ser Barristan was waiting by the steps with the Dornish prince. Martell’s square face was flushed and ruddy.

Too much wine, the queen concluded, though he was doing his best to conceal that. Apart from the line of copper suns that ornamented his belt, the Dornishman was plainly dressed. They call him Frog, Dany recalled. She could see why. He was not a handsome man.

Here is another example of the unappealing physical appearance of Quentyn, in the eyes of Dany. This time the sentiment is much clearer than the ambiguous “un-enchanting”, and “a shame the tall blonde wasn’t the prince”. She says he is not a handsome man. There is still the question as to whether being found to be unattractive by Dany actually hurts his cause. While I that being found unattractive by her certainly does not help his cause, it is important to note that when Dany gives Quentyn this second opportunity, she already knows what he looks like. She is looking beyond skin deep.

She smiled. “My prince. It is a long way down. Are you certain that you wish to do this?”

“If it would please Your Grace.”

“Then come.”

Quentyn is always polite. Quentyn is always courteous. Quentyn is ever well-mannered. It’s an unfortunate reality that these are not the traits Quentyn needs to impress Dany, or most prospective political allies. Kings and Queens and nations do not tie themselves with the polite and courteous. They tie themselves to the strong.

A pair of Unsullied went down the steps before them, bearing torches; behind came two Brazen

Beasts, one masked as a fish, the other as a hawk. Even here in her own pyramid, on this happy night of peace and celebration, Ser Barristan insisted on keeping guards about her everywhere she went. The small company made the long descent in silence, stopping thrice to refresh themselves along the way.

“The dragon has three heads,” Dany said when they were on the final flight. “My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.”

“For you,” said Quentyn, all awkward gallantry. “No,” said Dany. “For fire and blood.”

It’s going to take a little reading between the lines for Quentyn to see what is being offered here. Quentyn can still get Dany, in every way that he and Doran really want her (Quentyn has never shown any actual desire for her, inwardly or outwardly). She’s offering the political alliance and the vengeance/justice that Doran so wants.

But we have already witnessed that Quentyn’s political saavy is extremely low when he was seemingly unable to perceive the reasons behind Dany’s refusal. I doubt that any amount of preparation by his father, or anyone, or any amount of books, would have provided it to him. Being able to read between the lines and understand the nuances of conversation is not something that can be taught in a classroom or in a book. It is something that is gradually perceived ether through gift or practice. Quentyn has neither the gift or the proper practical experience.

One of the elephants trumpeted at them from his stall. An answering roar from below made her flush with sudden heat. Prince Quentyn looked up in alarm. “The dragons know when she is near,” Ser Barristan told him.

Every child knows its mother, Dany thought. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves … “They call to me. Come.” She took Prince Quentyn by the hand and led him to the pitwhere two of her dragons were confined. “Remain outside,” Dany told Ser Barristan, as the Unsullied were opening the huge iron doors. “Prince Quentyn will protect me.” She drew the Dornish prince inside with her, to stand above the pit.

The interesting undercurrent of the situation is that Dany is the one truly being gallant, by providing Quentyn the opportunity to act or look gallant by “protecting” her. But does Quentyn pick up on this and make note of it? No.

The aspect of Quentyn that is tying these excerpts together is his obliviousness. Why is he unable to pick up on the nuances involved? I would say that it is simply a matter that he is not gifted in the ability, he has not had the opportunity to acquire the ability, and his experience with girls is apparently very limited to aggressive Dornish teens.

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks. Rhaegal, still chained, was gnawing on the carcass of a bull. The bones on the floor of the pit were deeper than the last time she had been down here, and the walls and floors were black and grey, more ash than brick. They would not hold much longer … but behind them was only earth and stone.

Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old

Valyria? She hoped not.

The Dornish prince had gone as white as milk. “I … I had heard that there were three.”

“Drogon is hunting.” He did not need to hear the rest. “The white one is Viserion, the green is Rhaegal. I named them for my brothers.” Her voice echoed off the scorched stone walls. It sounded small—a girl’s voice, not the voice of a queen and conqueror, nor the glad voice of a new-made bride. Rhaegal roared in answer, and fire filled the pit, a spear of red and yellow. Viserion replied, his own flames gold and orange. When he flapped his wings, a cloud of grey ash filled the air. Broken chains clanked and clattered about his legs. Quentyn Martell jumped back a foot.

That was it. There was the second opportunity. Upon being introduced to her dragons, Quentyn goes from a ruddy drunk to white as a ghost. Then he jumps back a foot. The entire time, Quent is focused on the wrong thing. He is focused on the dragons, and not Dany. This is a moment she is vulnerable to him. This is a moment for him to perceive her and do something positive. But he does not.

I find it difficult to be too judgmental to Quentyn. Dragons are scary animals. His reaction is probably the reaction of most men. The problem is that Dany neither wants nor needs a normal man. Fear and lack of conviction is not something that Dany can afford at this point in a potential husband. Certainly not one she hopes to ride a dragon with her.

Instead of trying to find a root cause of Quentyn’s trepidation towards the dragons, it may be sufficient to say that he is normal. The lack of the extraordinary traits that he would require in this moment is simply a matter of nature, and a matter of not having had the opportunity to develop them. He is a boy, and a green knight.

A crueler woman might have laughed at him, but Dany squeezed his hand and said, “They frighten me as well. There is no shame in that. My children have grown wild and angry in the dark.”

“You … you mean to ride them?”

“One of them. All I know of dragons is what my brother told me when I was a girl, and some I read in books, but it is said that even Aegon the Conqueror never dared mount Vhagar or Meraxes, nor did his sisters ride Balerion the Black Dread. Dragons live longer than men, some for hundreds of years, so Balerion had other riders after Aegon died … but no rider ever flew two dragons.”

Viserion hissed again. Smoke rose between his teeth, and deep down in his throat they could see gold fire churning.

“They are … they are fearsome creatures.”

“They are dragons, Quentyn.” Dany stood on her toes and kissed him lightly, once on each cheek. “And so am I.”

The critical point is now past and we are in resolution phase of the meeting. Dany is gracious to Quentyn, admitting that the dragons scare her as well, and shares with him her plans to ride one of them, while implying that she is seeking two other riders. It’s not clear if Quentyn misses this as well, or if it is responsible for sowing the seed of his final gambit.

The meaning of the kiss is also not clear, though it seems to be Dany pitying Quentyn more than anything, and it was Sansa Stark that made the point that pity was the death of desire. It’s probably also the death of any influence Quentyn could exert in the present situation.

The young prince swallowed. “I … I have the blood of the dragon in me as well, Your Grace. I can trace my lineage back to the first Daenerys, the Targaryen princess who was sister to King Daeron the Good and wife to the Prince of Dorne. He built the Water Gardens for her.”

“The Water Gardens?” She knew little and less of Dorne or its history, if truth be told.

“My father’s favorite palace. It would please me to show them to you one day. They are all of pink marble, with pools and fountains, overlooking the sea.”

“They sound lovely.” She drew him away from the pit. He does not belong here. He should never have come.

Quentyn does attempt to lay claim to “dragon blood”, but is it an attempt to show some sort of qualification to ride a dragon, or is it an attempt to find something in common? Either way it is not what Dany is looking for at this moment and Quent follows it up with something even more unsought for; a reference to his daddy’s favorite palace. Dany doesn’t need a tour guide to show her pink marble palaces with pools and fountains and a great seaside vista. She needs a problem solver and Quent isn’t it, any more than Barristan Selmy is good at arranging assassinations.

Dany comes to the conclusion that Quent is not even going to be able to keep himself alive without help, much less help her with her current problems. She decides to give as much help as he is willing to accept.

“You ought to return there. My court is no safe place for you, I fear. You have more enemies than you know. You made Daario look a fool, and he is not a man to forget such a slight.”

“I have my knights. My sworn shields.”

“Two knights. Daario has five hundred Stormcrows. And you would do well to beware of my lord husband too. He seems a mild and pleasant man, I know, but do not be deceived. Hizdahr’s crown derives from mine, and he commands the allegiance of some of the most fearsome fighters in the world.

If one of them should think to win his favor by disposing of a rival …”

“I am a prince of Dorne, Your Grace. I will not run from slaves and sell swords.”

From obliviousness and social ineptness we now turn to two new aspects of Quentyn’s character; his stubbornness and pride. Dany informs Quentyn he is in danger, and somewhat to his credit, he does not leap at the opportunity to get out of Dodge. Yet the reasons and reasoning for Quentyn refusing to run in the face of the danger that Dany is spelling out for him transforms the nature of the refusal from courage to foolhardiness. Quentyn does not fully appreciate the danger he is in, because of stubborn pride and because he does not understand the dangers that sell swords and slaves pose him.

Instead of eliciting admiration, Quent only elicits disdain from a woman, at least two years younger than him, who has already stared death in the face numerous times, has more hell in store for herself, and understands the dangers of sells swords and slaves only too well.

Then you truly are a fool, Prince Frog.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Part IV

The Discarded Knight

Now Quentyn is on the other side of the critical point. Dany has disappeared, flown off on the back of Drogon. Hizdahr is now sole ruler of Mereen and has been removing from power most of the supporters of Daenarys. It is now through the eyes of Ser Barristan Selmy that we view him.

Ser Barristan is present while Hizdahr holds court. While Reznak deals with multiple petitioners, and the pressing question of the survival of Daenarys, Barristan spots Quentyn and his men in the rear of the hall.

Ser Barristan let Reznak’s oily words wash over him. His years in the Kingsguard had taught him the trick of listening without hearing, especially useful when the speaker was intent on proving that words were truly wind. Back at the rear of the hall, he spied the Dornish princeling and his two companions.

They should not have come. Martell does not realize his danger. Daenerys was his only friend at this court, and she is gone.

Ser Barristan’s thoughts eerily mirror Dany’s during her final meeting with Quent in the dragon pit. Both have come to the conclusion that Quentyn is in danger, and an easy target for political machinations and the jealousy of Hizdahr. Both have come to the conclusion that Quent is a fish out of water.

The rest of the chapter will center on the perceived threat to Quentyn, and his reaction to it. We have already witnessed Quentyn’s initial response when he is warned by Dany. He is driven by a combination of pride in himself and Dorne, underestimation of his enemies, and determination/stubbornness when it comes to admitting defeat. These same character traits will be on display again, only more spectacularly.

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least.

That one is his father’s son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

Here we have the crown jewel excerpt of the re-read, from whence we take our title. No other paragraph is used more to illustrate who Quentyn is, and one of the feelings why his mission was doomed to fail.

Ser Barristan immediately draws the parallel between Quentyn and Prince Doran. An intent listener, sober, sensible, and dutiful; short, stocky, and plain-faced; some or all are traits that Barristan also attributes to Doran. From what we know about Doran, we can certainly also say that he is sober, sensible, and dutiful, and definitely one who prefers to listen rather than talk.

Barry’s likening Quentyn to mud is simultaneously damning and praising.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

Basically, Barry is stating that Quentyn is one of those boys that fathers would be happy to have date their teenage daughters, but teenage girls seldom seem to date.

I think too much of this excerpt has been made in making the argument that Dany’s decision to reject Quentyn based on his appearance rather than solely for political reasons. This is a question focusing more on the character of Dany, rather than Quentyn. Here, it is enough to clarify that even Ser Barristan, who is a great supporter of Quentyn, and one who more highly appraised the political worth of his proposal, believes that Quentyn is a “not”, not a “hot”.

Even then, I feel it is necessary to point out that the reasons that Barristan believes that Quentyn is a “not”, have more to do than with his physical appearance. While Ser Barristan believes that Quentyn lacks “poetry, passion, and laughter” in order to be “fire”, I would imagine that Dany would counter that the fire she would like Quentyn to possess deals with more than that. Regardless, it should be clear that Quentyn lacks both sides of “fire”. No one can accuse Quentyn of being a romantic, being passionate, or being a generally fun person to be around, whether this is truly what Dany seeks in a lover or husband or not.

Behind the prince, Ser Gerris Drinkwater was whispering something to Yronwood. Ser Gerris was all his prince was not: tall and lean and comely, with a swordsman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. Selmy did not doubt that many a Dornish maiden had run her fingers through that sun-streaked hair and kissed that teasing smile off his lips.

If this one had been the prince, things might have gone elsewise, he could not help but think … but there was something a bit too pleasant about Drinkwater for his taste. False coin, the old knight thought. He had known such men before.

Next comes a comparison between Quent and Gerris. There are the obvious physical differences, with the advantage going to Gerris in terms of height and form. There is also the “courtier’s wit” that Barristan sees Quentyn lacking. I would simply translate this as a fair appraisal of the differences in personality between Gerris and Quentyn. Gerris is indeed a better conversationalist, more comfortable and able in social settings, and probably better able to dance the dance of social interaction.

There is another aspect that seems to be at play. There is a sneaking sense that Ser Barristan’s approval of Quentyn may be due to the fact that Ser Barristan consciously, or unconsciously, sees some of himself in Quentyn. Ser Barristan himself would probably consider himself as “muddy”. He may not have been quite as physically unappealing, depending on the viewer, but he certainly seems to be “sober, sensible, and dutiful”, and seems to have his own difficulties when it comes to the social sphere and with women/love.

While the observation in itself should not be controversial, the conclusion that Ser Barristan comes to has certainly become one. “If this one had been the prince…things might have gone elsewise” raises the inevitable question; is Ser Barristan right? There are those who believe that the failure of Quentyn’s mission was solely due to the political exigencies present in Mereen, and those who believe that Quentyn was rejected because Dany found him unappealing.

I will come back to this question in the conclusion. For now, I would only like to point out that Ser Barristan’s opinion on this is not rock solid. I suspect that Barristan’s thoughts mirror those of readers who sympathize and empathize with Quentyn, and find him preferable to Hizdahr and Daario. He is looking for some way things could have gone elsewise, and he seems to realize this himself.

“Things might have gone elsewise”, with might being the key word of the phrase, gives us reason to believe that even Ser Barristan does not completely believe this. “He could not help but think” could also make us believe that the thought is more wishful than a rock solid belief.

It is during the midst of this musing that Ser Barristan stumbles upon the possibility of Quentyn being responsible for the poisoned locusts offered to Dany during the pit games. From sympathy and empathy, Barristan seems to very quickly consider that Quentyn may be a poisoner.

The thought process and method of investigation tells us much more about Barristan than it does about Quentyn. To his credit, Barristan is able to perceive that Quentyn would be one of those with the most to gain from the death of Hizdahr, just as Hizdahr has the most to gain from the death of Dany. It is also notable that even though Ser Barristan does seem to like Quentyn, and will later in the chapter take some risk to warn him of his situation, it does not blind him from imagining possible scenarios where Quentyn is a poisoner. Effective bodyguards probably all have a touch of paranoia, and Barristan has been an executive bodyguard for around 40 years.

Ser Barristan’s suspicions are interrupted by the arrival of Redbead, who proceed to deliver the head of Admiral Groleo to Hizdahr and then demands the death of the dragons for the peace to remain in effect. After Hizdahr dismisses the court, Ser Barristan decides to help Quentyn after reaching the conclusion that it is what Daenarys would have done in his place.

“Prince Quentyn,” Selmy called. “Might I beg a word?”

Quentyn Martell turned. “Ser Barristan. Of course. My chambers are one level down.”

No. “It is not my place to counsel you, Prince Quentyn … but if I were you, I would not return to my chambers. You and your friends should go down the steps and leave.”

Prince Quentyn stared. “Leave the pyramid?”

“Leave the city. Return to Dorne.”

The Dornishmen exchanged a look. “Our arms and armor are back in our apartments,” said Gerris Drinkwater. “Not to mention most of the coin that we have left.”

“Swords can be replaced,” said Ser Barristan. “I can provide you with coin enough for passage

back to Dorne. Prince Quentyn, the king made note of you today. He frowned.”

Ser Barristan simply repeats for Quentyn the danger Hizdahr poses to him, just as Dany did earlier.

Gerris Drinkwater laughed. “Should we be frightened of Hizdahr zo Loraq? You saw him just now. He quailed before the Yunkishmen. They sent him a

head, and he did nothing.”

Quentyn Martell nodded in agreement. “A prince does well to think before he acts. This king … I do not know what to think of him. The queen warned me against him as well, true, but …”

Despite the fact that Gerris and Quentyn seem to share the basic opinion of Hizdahr, it is notable that Quentyn’s stance is much more thoughtful. “A prince does well to think before he acts” seems to be a saying straight from the mouth, or correspondence, of Doran Martell. This both stresses the natural contemplative nature of Quentyn and the fact that he relies heavily on the instruction of his father due to his own experience and his indecisive nature.

Instead of Doran not preparing Quentyn enough, it’s possible that Doran tried to prepare him too much, giving him a certain amount of information overload. The situations Quentyn finds himself in lend themselves to solutions through practical knowledge gained through experience, rather than theoretical knowledge gained through instruction.

“She warned you?” Selmy frowned. “Why are you still here?”

Prince Quentyn flushed. “The marriage pact—”

Quent flushes. This is usually a sign of his embarrassment or perturbation. In this case, Quentyn seems to believe that the idea of him leaving with his mission unfulfilled is insulting and unthinkable. This brings us back to the chief characteristics we will see in play; Quent’s desperation/determination to not fail (stubbornness), his pride, and his lack of appreciation/experience with political enemies.

Barristan, apparently no stranger to Dornish stubbornness, quickly tries to deflate Quent’s own sense of importance in pacts and his survivability in Mereen with Hizdahr at the helm.

“—was made by two dead men and contained not a word about the queen or you. It promised your sister’s hand to the queen’s brother, another dead man. It has no force. Until you turned up here,

Her Grace was ignorant of its existence. Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear. If the queen had known of this pact in Qarth, she might never have turned aside for Slaver’s Bay, but you came too late. I have no wish to salt your wounds, but Her Grace has a new husband and an old paramour, and seems to prefer the both of them to you.”

Here, despite his earlier musings concerning the possibility of events unraveling differently if Quentyn were “fire” rather than “mud”, to Quentyn’s face Ser Barristan firmly lays the cause of his rejection as timing rather than sex appeal.

Anger flashed in the prince’s dark eyes. “This Ghiscari lordling is no fit consort for the queen of the Seven Kingdoms.”

Anger is seldom a reaction we get from Quentyn, and it’s presence here is significant, though vague since we see it from an outward perspective. Is Quentyn’s anger and appraisal of Hizdahr a form of racism? Is it simply a matter of injured pride from being rejected in favor of a man whom Quentyn sees as less than him, either due again to his race or an appraisal of Hizdahr’s character?

Regardless of whatever reason, what we can be sure of is that Quentyn isn’t entirely passive and without some sort of pride in himself.

Ser Barristan proceeds to test Quentyn, pointing to his possible accusation as a poisoner.

“That is not for you to judge.” Ser Barristan paused, wondering if he had said too much already.

No. Tell him the rest of it. “That day at Daznak’s Pit, some of the food in the royal box was poisoned. It

was only chance that Strong Belwas ate it all. The Blue Graces say that only his size and freakish strength

have saved him, but it was a near thing. He may yet die.”

Barristan plans to judge Quentyn by his reactions.

The shock was plain on Prince Quentyn’s face. “Poison … meant for Daenerys?”

“Her or Hizdahr. Perhaps both. The box was his, though. His Grace made all the arrangements. If the poison was his doing … well, he will need a scapegoat. Who better than a rival from a distant land who has no friends at this court? Who better than a suitor the queen spurned?”

Quentyn Martell went pale. “Me? I would never … you cannot think I had any part in any …”

That was the truth, or he is a master mummer. “Others might,” said Ser Barristan. “The Red Viper was your uncle. And you have good reason to want King Hizdahr dead.”

Upon hearing the accusations, Quentyn responds with plainly visible shock and by going pale when his possible implication is explained. Barristan takes this as reasonable proof that Quentyn was not involved in the poisoning. For the reader, it reinforces the impression of Quentyn being a generally decent and honest individual, who is probably a favorite guest at poker tables.

Yet the weakness inherent brings us back to his inexperience with politics. While Quentyn cannot imagine that anyone could suppose that he is a poisoner, Barristan lays out exactly how someone can construe that he may be one, from making the connection between Quentyn and Oberyn. Quentyn’s inexperience made him unable to see the way which his relationship with his uncle, and his uncle’s reputation, could be a detriment, and could be used against him politically.

“So do others,” suggested Gerris Drinkwater. “Naharis, for one. The queen’s …”

“… paramour,” Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might

besmirch the queen’s honor. “That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?” He did not wait for a

reply. “Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the

Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.”

“No,” said Quentyn, red-faced, “but …”

It is unclear here where Quentyn was going when he was cut off. Was he going to build on the accusation against Daario that Gerris began, or did his disagreement have to do again with the unsuitability of Daario as even a paramour for a Queen of Westeros? Either one was possible.

“Daario would kill Hizdahr in a heartbeat if he dared,” Ser Barristan went on. “But not with poison. Never. And Daario was not there in any case. Hizdahr would be pleased to blame him for the locusts, all the same … but the king may yet have need of the Stormcrows, and he will lose them if he appears complicit in the death of their captain. No, my prince. If His Grace needs a poisoner, he will look to you.” He had said all that he could safely say. In a few more days, if the gods smiled on them, Hizdahr

zo Loraq would no longer rule Meereen … but no good would be served by having Prince Quentyn caught up in the bloodbath that was coming. “If you must remain in Meereen, you would do well to stay away from court and hope Hizdahr forgets you,” Ser Barristan finished, “but a ship for Volantis would be wiser, my prince. Whatever course you choose, I wish you well.”

Ser Barristan makes it as clear as he can as to the nature of the danger that Quentyn is in, and the direction it will come from.

There is much to be gleaned on what we can learn about Quentyn by what decision he later makes. But that will probably be better saved for next week. For now, it is important that we look at the motives for not leaving that Quentyn lays before Barristan here.

Before he had gone three steps, Quentyn Martell called out to him. “Barristan the Bold, they call you.”

“Some do.”

“What name do you think they will give me, should I return to Dorne without Daenerys?” Prince

Quentyn asked. “Quentyn the Cautious? Quentyn the Craven? Quentyn the Quail?”

The Prince Who Came Too Late, the old knight thought … but if a knight of the Kingsguard learns nothing else, he learns to guard his tongue. “Quentyn the Wise,” he suggested. And hoped that it was true.

Quentyn lays out an argument based primarily on his perception by others. This may be a somewhat simplistic view considering who he is and the importance he himself places upon success. There are many causes at play when it comes to Quentyn’s refusal to leave Mereen, and worry about how people will perceive his failure is only one of them.

But just as important as what drives him to stay is what he did not possess that would have enabled him to lay low or leave. Determination or stubborn-ness always leads to disaster at a certain point. What Quentyn lacked was the wisdom and experience to know when to fold.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Part V

Conclusions

The three chapters reviewed above were not only important because they gave us external views of Quentyn Martell, but because they contained the climax of his arc. In Daenarys Stormborn, Quentyn meets his dragon. Everything that came before led up to the moments that he was in her presence. Everything that occurs afterwards is due to the result of those meetings.

The result of those meetings was the immediate failure of Quentyn’s mission. This failure is the driver of the remainder of his arc. In terms of his story, the question that we must end up asking is why did Quentyn’s mission fail? Was the failure due to causes outside of his control? Was it simply a matter of bad timing? Or did Quentyn in fact have an opportunity to achieve the goals of the mission? Was the failure due in part to his actions or inactions, or his character, and if so, what character flaws were responsible for the failure? What are the root causes of these character flaws?

The answers for these questions are partially tied up in the personality of Dany. At some point it is impossible to separate Quentyn’s fate from Daenarys Stormborn. But I will refrain from making deep judgments or commentary on Dany’s character in my conclusion.

I do not believe that the question of the cause for the mission’s failure is easily answered. Two primary schools of thought on the subject are that either Quentyn was rejected due to being unappealing, or that he was rejected purely for political reasons. I believe that both these arguments have some merit, but that the truth is somewhat in-between.

What would it have taken to talk Dany out of her marriage to Hizdahr on the eve of its occurrence? The answer is: quite possibly nothing at all. At this point, so close to the wedding, Dany is marrying Hizdahr because it was her agreement to do so. Even if Quentyn had landed with 50,000 spears, it would not have abrogated Dany’s agreement to marry Hizdahr in return for 90 days of peace.

The only person who could have had a shot at doing this would be a person who could talk Dany out of her engagement by exposing Hizdahr as an accomplice of the Sons of the Harpy, an accomplice of the Yunkish coalition, or as an otherwise unworthy consort to the Mother of Dragons. I suspect that this accomplishment would not be impossible, but it is definitely outside the reach of Quentyn Martell. It would take not only a man or woman of prodigious social ability, but a politically brilliant one as well.

But following the wedding, Quentyn is given another opportunity to impress Dany, who is not yet willing to rule out the possibility of her eventual return to Westeros. It is there, at the critical moment in the dragon pit inside the Great Pyramid, where Quentyn’s fate truly becomes his own. It is here that his failure has nothing to do with bad timing, but is due entirely to his character.

Why, at this critical point, is Quentyn unable to impress Dany? The answer, in a nutshell, is that he simply did not have “the right stuff”. Quentyn was not only found to be physically

unappealing to Dany, a quality that was well known and unchangeable before the second chance was afforded, but he was found wanting in spirit as well. Primarily, Quentyn was socially unperceptive to the actual reasons behind the refusal of his suit, and the needs and desires of his intended.

There is a long line of character faults and weaknesses that we can lay at Quentyn’s feet, and say they had a hand in his failure. The root causes of these character traits are always either nature, nurture, and experience. In some ways, Quentyn was his father’s son. He is quiet, passive, introverted, and given to thoughtfulness rather than extemporaneous action and improvisation. In some ways, he was the product of his environment. He was fostered by the Yronwoods and grew up in a seemingly sheltered manner.

In all ways, and most importantly of all, Quentyn’s weaknesses can all be tied in some way to his lack of experience. Despite being “a man grown” this is Quentyn’s first real experience outside a somewhat structured environment. What 18 year old boy/man could have been successful in Quentyn’s place? What 18 year old boy/man has the level of experience that Dany already possesses at 16?

Outside of the reasons given above, there is the meta reason for Quentyn’s failure. He was fated to. George RR Martin never planned to have Dany married to a Prince of Dorne. The exact reasoning behind creating a character and a storyline doomed to failure may be impossible to ascertain at this point. The full story is not over and the repercussions of Quentyn Martell’s death are yet to be fully exposed.

The question we must ask when confronted by this, is why did GRRM create such a character with apparently no way of being successful? Why make Quentyn unattractive if it never mattered? Why make him so unlike his sister, or his uncle? The answer, beyond creating plausibility and the fact that many of his character flaws are possibly linked to his unattractiveness, is that all the flaws in combination with his virtues creates a very sympathetic character whose eventual failure and death is certainly more felt by the reader.

I doubt many readers would have been affected by Quentyn’s death, had he been an asshole, other than feeling joy or happiness. Likewise, a perfectly handsome prince charming with amazing social skills is less identifiable and sympathetic for readers. It is due to the fact that Quentyn is a likeable and sympathetic character that we are able to feel the tragedy of his failure and eventual death so keenly.

Finally, it is difficult to come a complete opinion on Quentyn at this stage. The picture is not done being painted by the time Ser Barristan leaves Quentyn. His story is not yet done. I will save any final impressions when Julia completes the sum-up essay. I look forward to continued reading.

[Loic]

What an awesome, interesting, inspiring post.

A pleasure to read, truly.

I'll add a couple of minor things that jumped to my mind when reading it:

1 Frog

“And you, ser?” the queen asked the boy called Frog.

(...)

“Your Grace, I have the honor to be Quentyn Martell, a prince of Dorne and your most leal subject.”

Dany laughed.

(...)

“Radiance?” said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. “Why do you laugh?”

“They call him frog,”

Quentyn came to Daenerys as he was showing two separate identities, be he willing or not. Even after revealing his true identity, the term "frog" stands out for the dornish prince.

As you cleverly point out, Raving Stark The Mad, Dany gives Quentyn a second chance and he spectacularly blows it out.

What stands out is that his two "roles" show up once again.

But unlike in the children tale, this time it's not about a charmed frog that becomes a prince after being kissed... rather the sad opposite.

(...)

“Remain outside,” Dany told Ser Barristan, as the Unsullied were opening the huge iron doors. “Prince Quentyn will protect me.” She drew the Dornish prince inside with her, to stand above the pit. The Dornish prince had gone as white as milk.

(...)

Rhaegal roared in answer, and fire filled the pit, a spear of red and yellow. Viserion replied, his own flames gold and orange. When he flapped his wings, a cloud of grey ash filled the air. Broken chains clanked and clattered about his legs. Quentyn Martell jumped back a foot.

(...)

Dany stood on her toes and kissed him lightly, once on each cheek.

(...)

Then you truly are a fool, Prince Frog.

2 Like Doran

Gerris Drinkwater laughed. “Should we be frightened of Hizdahr zo Loraq? You saw him just now. He quailed before the Yunkishmen. They sent him a head, and he did nothing.” Quentyn Martell nodded in agreement. “A prince does well to think before he acts.

You already point out the Martell duo Quentyn/Doran to be contemplative.

What's interesting to notice is that Gerris' words are bound to be true once again at Doran's court, when Gregor's Clegane head arrives. Obara Sand's opinion isn't that different, on that regard.

Nice job, once again!

[Hrafntýr]

Really terrific analyses, Raving Stark the Mad, just chock full of interesting points!

While up to now Quent has not done or said anything at all, his silence is thunderous. It isn’t what Quent is doing, but what he is not doing, or rather, what he is letting Gerris do. He is letting Gerris continue as the “face-man”, or as his “herald” for as long as he can. The moment Gerris lets Dany know that “we are all three knights”, the game is up, and Quentyn can step forward as the “leader” of the expedition. But Quentyn does not. He lets Gerris do the talking for him.

This may spring from a lack of confidence in his speaking ability, or lack of confidence in his overall presentation. Is this lack of confidence unfounded? One can easily argue that the ability to understand one’s own weaknesses and the strengths of others is a good trait in a leader, and delegation is not a sin of an effective manager.

One thing is certain. By playing it safe by having Gerris do all the talking, Quentyn loses any ability to begin to impress Dany in any way with his persona before his proposal via written agreement. He seamlessly transitions from hidden leadership to his natural “hands off” management style. Considering what we know of Quentyn, it is likely that he would not have been able to impress Dany any more than he did if he had taken a stronger role earlier in the conversation. The symptom, the lack of confidence, has an underlying cause.

Definitely a bad decision on Quentyn's part. One can imagine that he's hesitant to declare himself in front of the entire court, wishing instead for some form of private address, but it's really now or never at this point. And in fact Quentyn does show himself to be well-spoken, it's hard to imagine that he couldn't say something appropriate. In all his time in prison, had he really not practiced what he was going to say when he finally came before Daenerys?

Well, yes, apparently he did have a dramatic presentation in mind:

After clearing her court, the party begins to introduce themselves by their true names, with Quentyn waiting to be last.

“And you, ser?” the queen asked the boy called Frog.

“If it please Your Grace, may I first present my gift?”

“If you wish,” Daenerys said, curious, but as Frog started forward Daario Naharis stepped in front of him and held out a gloved hand. “Give this gift to me.”

Stone-faced, the stocky lad bent, unlaced his boot, and drew a yellowed parchment from a hidden flap within.

“This is your gift? A scrap of writing?” Daario snatched the parchment out of the Dornishman’s hands and unrolled it, squinting at the seals and signatures.

Before introducing himself, Quent decides to present the secret pact first. This seems to speak volumes without Quent saying anything at all. Quent has always believed that the one ace in the hole he had, the one way he was going to win over “the most beautiful woman in the world”, was with the advantages of the political alliance, and the concept that Dany “must” honor the agreement. This falls straight back into Quent’s lack of confidence in himself. He will not even present himself until the agreement itself is presented. He hopes that nothing about himself, or anything he does, is key to the success of the mission.

There does seem to be some merit to Quent’s line of thinking. Dany is certainly not marrying Hizdahr because she loves him, though it seems he’s not exactly hard to look at either. Dany is certainly not marrying Daario despite the fact that she is extremely attracted to him and he apparently has no problems satisfying her physically. Nevertheless, Quentyn has again managed to limit his options by taking himself out of the equation almost immediately, which no one else ever quite does, including Dany.

This is brilliant, you've really hit the nail on the head. It's not about me, it's about Dorne.

Notice that Gerris, who was initially taking the lead in the introduction with Dany, is now the one to defend Quentyn after being insulted by Daario. Quent never says a word in his own defense. It’s unsure if he even flushed.

I see this again as another example of Quent’s passivity, and his non-confrontational personality. These are certainly admirable qualities, at specific times. But the inability to speak up and protect oneself can lend doubt as to whether the individual is capable of defending anyone at all. I think the situation that Quentyn was in was not one of the times that being non-confrontational was a plus.

Another excellent point. This is definitely a moment when I see a lot of Doran in Quent. Doran is perfectly happy to let others think him weak or passive or unable to defend himself. That works fine when you've secretly got others working for you to effect your plans, but it's not like Quentyn's passivity here is a mask for some behind the scenes mastermind plan to win Dany.

It is Gerris that makes the final argument to Dany; that she can still change her mind. This is a sentiment also expressed by Missandei and Selmy . We do not hear from Quentyn again for the remainder of the scene. We are left to guess for ourselves the immediate impact of Dany’s rejection, and the possible failure of his mission. Quentyn’s worst fears are coming true. But one thing is for certain, Quentyn has not yet given up.

Indeed, this point could well have been stressed much more strongly, and by Quentyn himself. You discuss later Quentyn's inability to consider Dany's perspective or goals. One can imagine arguments that Quentyn might have made to at least get Dany thinking about alternatives. Things like getting her to consider her longer-term plans for Westeros, that she has named herself Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men and how Dorne fits into that, or even throwing out the fact that Targaryen polygamy has not been unknown! Quentyn acts as if everything should be self-evident, and places too much weight on his scrap of parchment. I agree that the main issue is that Dany is completely focused on her present problems in Meereen, and that it's hard to see a way in which Quent could have made himself relevant to that situation, but he might at least have begun that conversation. As you say he seems impervious to her concerns.

Which actually is something that your analysis caused me to see: there's a way in which Quentyn, for all that he seems to be subordinating himself to Dorne, is actually quite solipsistic. He really can't much get outside of his own head, his own problems, his own doubts, etc.

I really liked your analysis of the "climax" of Quent's quest, his handling of the "second chance" that Dany offers him. I do think you're right that he fails to impress Dany by showing that he understands what she wants, but I'm not sure that he fails to understand. We'll be getting into it more with the next chapter, but I think that he does in fact get the "fire and blood" message that she gives him, only it takes a while for it to sink in. To be sure, what Dany may have wanted was his immediate and visible understanding.

Dany's remark that Quentyn will protect her, when we know that it is she who will protect him, is uncomfortably similar to the scenes during Sansa's descent from the Eyrie with Sweetrobin, when she asks him to hold her because she is so frightened, when really her aim is to hold him to soothe his terror.

I will note, though, that I don't think Dany is lying when she says that the dragons frighten her, too, and the passage notes how she sounds like a little girl in the dragonpit. As we'll see when we get to the Dragontamer chapter, when push comes to shove, Quentyn responds to Viserion almost exactly like Dany responds to Drogo. Poor kid does have the right stuff, it's just too deep inside for anyone to see it. Maybe he doesn't even know he has it in him.

And yes, he totally missed the opportunity to really connect to Dany, one on one, when she opens up to him. In fact, even during their first conversation, when Prince Mud is first presented to her, her remarks to him open up the possibility of flirtatious banter, with question "are you enchanted?" the idea that he's come for a kiss, that he offers his own sweet self. If he'd had a shred of experience with girls or women he might have at least played the game.

But then again, we're forced to ask: how much is it about attraction and seduction, and how much about fire and blood? Or are the two related? I really liked your discussion of the two sides of fire, by the way, neither of which Quentyn manages to demonstrate, sadly.

Regarding Quentyn's comment about Hizdahr, “This Ghiscari lordling is no fit consort for the queen of the Seven Kingdoms,” you said

Anger is seldom a reaction we get from Quentyn, and it’s presence here is significant, though vague since we see it from an outward perspective. Is Quentyn’s anger and appraisal of Hizdahr a form of racism? Is it simply a matter of injured pride from being rejected in favor of a man whom Quentyn sees as less than him, either due again to his race or an appraisal of Hizdahr’s character?

I think it might be both these things, but I think it once again points to a failed opportunity that I alluded to above: reminding Dany of her ties to Westeros, asking her to consider the longer term. Quent is quite likely right, that a Ghiscari king would be rejected in the Seven Kingdoms. Dany is totally wrapped up in the current mess of Meereen, and it may well be that at this point she can't even think about Westeros. But I do wonder if Quent might not have played up to some effect his Westerosi creds?

Finally, I really appreciated the excellent questions you raise in your conclusion, which I'll be mulling over for a while. I do think that the failure of Quentyn's suit is largely a matter of timing, and a lack of information, though this is shared by almost everyone we see. Indeed, it would have taken someone who knew that Dany was heading to Meereen, knew that she'd decide to stay and rule, and who knew the ins and outs of the power structures in Meereen to have successfully negotiated such an arrangement, and even that's a long shot.

But you're right that Quent seems to fail on his second chance, his visit to the dragonpit with Dany. Or maybe not. I do think he understood what she said, and formed his plan accordingly, but only after the fact, which may have been too late. Had he stepped forward to Viserion then and there, what might have happened?

[Chebyshov]

I think these analyses deserve about 50 :bowdown: 's. An amazing read.

The three chapters reviewed above were not only important because they gave us external views of Quentyn Martell, but because they contained the climax of his arc. In Daenarys Stormborn, Quentyn meets his dragon. Everything that came before led up to the moments that he was in her presence. Everything that occurs afterwards is due to the result of those meetings.

Well, at least the climax as Doran saw it. Was our lack of insight into Quentyn's head simply a matter of "importance" of character? Or to set up what comes next, so his desperation and path forward come as a bit more of a shock?

The answers for these questions are partially tied up in the personality of Dany. At some point it is impossible to separate Quentyn’s fate from Daenarys Stormborn. But I will refrain from making deep judgments or commentary on Dany’s character in my conclusion.

Cogent. Whatever people make of Doran's plans and Quentyn's approach, we have to keep in mind that Dany and her own motives/passions drove much of her choice. Could either Dornishman have foreseen the complicated political situation in Meereen, much less Dany's vested interest in it? Doubtful.

The only person who could have had a shot at doing this would be a person who could talk Dany out of her engagement by exposing Hizdahr as an accomplice of the Sons of the Harpy, an accomplice of the Yunkish coalition, or as an otherwise unworthy consort to the Mother of Dragons. I suspect that this accomplishment would not be impossible, but it is definitely outside the reach of Quentyn Martell. It would take not only a man or woman of prodigious social ability, but a politically brilliant one as well.

And someone who made a pointed effort to get the lowdown on the situation inside of Meereen. I'm not sure during his time there it's feasible, even for a political genius. I think he was set to fail, but the fact that he may blame it on personal shortcomings makes it all the more tragic a tale.

Why, at this critical point, is Quentyn unable to impress Dany? The answer, in a nutshell, is that he simply did not have “the right stuff”. Quentyn was not only found to be physically unappealing to Dany, a quality that was well known and unchangeable before the second chance was afforded, but he was found wanting in spirit as well. Primarily, Quentyn was socially unperceptive to the actual reasons behind the refusal of his suit, and the needs and desires of his intended.

Exactly. He never understood why he failed in the first place, likely because of Martell Self-Deprecation (trademark pending), so he could have no way of gleaning why Dany re-approached him.

The question we must ask when confronted by this, is why did GRRM create such a character with apparently no way of being successful? Why make Quentyn unattractive if it never mattered? Why make him so unlike his sister, or his uncle? The answer, beyond creating plausibility and the fact that many of his character flaws are possibly linked to his unattractiveness, is that all the flaws in combination with his virtues creates a very sympathetic character whose eventual failure and death is certainly more felt by the reader.

I doubt many readers would have been affected by Quentyn’s death, had he been an asshole, other than feeling joy or happiness. Likewise, a perfectly handsome prince charming with amazing social skills is less identifiable and sympathetic for readers. It is due to the fact that Quentyn is a likeable and sympathetic character that we are able to feel the tragedy of his failure and eventual death so keenly.

"Tragic" is the right word, for sure. But there's also the important fact that the crafting of Quentyn's character also reflects onto Doran and Arianne. Why have it be that the child who always thought he'd come into the seat in Sunspear appear as the perfect heir, yet lack the skills that are needed, whereas the child who thought her whole life that her birthright was in jeopardy appear as the jolly lark, yet really be in possession of some of the most effective (and Doran-like) skills in the game? It's goddamn poetic for one. There's maybe points to be made about the cost of fostering, and (yes, again), communication with children.

But yeah, anyone have other thoughts on this? I plan on doing another Arianne comparison here, as is my wont, but I feel like we're on the precipice of something quite provocative here.

Much and more on the nonce ;)