Prince Mud: The Quentyn Martell Reread Project

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Amazing. I'll give it (and the previous articles) more thought when I return.

But something that I would like to point out is that, while Quentyn and Doran are compared often, Doran was able to make QUITE the impression in Mellario, a foreigner who had no reasons to know he was a Prince. Doran was maybe also "mud" be he was in red, gold and orange, which are not only Martell colours, they are TARGARYEN colours as well. Those were the colours Rhaegar, hottest guy ever, used in his helmet. Also did Aerion in his own sigil.

So, Quentyn, you have no excuse.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Thanks for all the great replies. I'm sorry I've been busy the last few days, and I suffered a slight burnout.

I want to address some of the things that came up in the replies, and I wanted to give each their own post.

But then again, we're forced to ask: how much is it about attraction and seduction, and how much about fire and blood? Or are the two related?

I think it's alot about being a good salesman. Quentyn is selling something. He's selling an alliance, and he's selling himself. There is a lot of pieces involved in making a sale. One thing that always makes it easier to make a sale is to create some sort of rapport. It helps to be "likeable". One of the quickest and easiest ways to be "likeable" is to be attractive. That's why you don't see unattractive people selling stuff on TV commercials. Another extremely important thing is to know what the customer WANTS, and how what you are selling is going to help them get what they want.

Quent's job wasn't really to be a seducer, and his lack of confidence in his looks leads him to fret that he will be rejected because of them. But he really isn't much of a salesman either.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

But something that I would like to point out is that, while Quentyn and Doran are compared often, Doran was able to make QUITE the impression in Mellario, a foreigner who had no reasons to know he was a Prince. Doran was maybe also "mud" be he was in red, gold and orange, which are not only Martell colours, they are TARGARYEN colours as well. Those were the colours Rhaegar, hottest guy ever, used in his helmet. Also did Aerion in his own sigil.

I certainly agree that there are some differences between Quentyn and Doran, as well as similarities. It strikes me though that Mellario probably had different standards than Dany. For one, she was definately taken with his atire before meeting him. Dany noticed that Quent was dressed shabbily, both during the audience and during the reception, but I think part of that is due to the fact that he had to get rid of most of his money and good clothes in Volantis. I'm not quite certain if Doran kept his identity secret from Mellario after first meeting her. I think that GRRM mentioned that part of the attraction between Doran and Mellario was the novelty. They were from different cultures. Dany doesn't seem to be impressed at all by the novelty of a Dornish prince. She's already had a Dothraki husband, a new Ghiscari husband, a Tyroshi lover, and a Qartheen suitor.

I gather that it takes more to impress Dany.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Great questions.

Well, at least the climax as Doran saw it. Was our lack of insight into Quentyn's head simply a matter of "importance" of character? Or to set up what comes next, so his desperation and path forward come as a bit more of a shock?

Difficult to say. It used to be that you had only one major POV in a setting, at least after "the gathering" at Winterfell. But after Dany disappears, you can't seem to tell the story anymore unless you throw in some more POVs.

I still don't think that Quentyn was ever planned to be a major character. But his story was told better by throwing two POV chapters before meeting Dany, and two POV chapters after.

Cogent. Whatever people make of Doran's plans and Quentyn's approach, we have to keep in mind that Dany and her own motives/passions drove much of her choice. Could either Dornishman have foreseen the complicated political situation in Meereen, much less Dany's vested interest in it? Doubtful.

I agree. I just do not see how some of the blame for this can be placed at the feet of Doran. I don't think he ever suspected that such problems would exist.

And someone who made a pointed effort to get the lowdown on the situation inside of Meereen. I'm not sure during his time there it's feasible, even for a political genius. I think he was set to fail, but the fact that he may blame it on personal shortcomings makes it all the more tragic a tale.

Lots of thoughts on this. I think that you're right. That unless someone already knew the entirety of the situation in Mereen, it would have been impossible to change her mind, even for someone with JLA Batman level intelligence.

Exactly. He never understood why he failed in the first place, likely because of Martell Self-Deprecation (trademark pending), so he could have no way of gleaning why Dany re-approached him.

I think this was his key to failure. As I mentioned earlier, how can you make a sale unless you know what the customer wants? Instead of asking himself "what does Dany want?", Quentyn is stuck on "she doesn't want me".

"Tragic" is the right word, for sure. But there's also the important fact that the crafting of Quentyn's character also reflects onto Doran and Arianne. Why have it be that the child who always thought he'd come into the seat in Sunspear appear as the perfect heir, yet lack the skills that are needed, whereas the child who thought her whole life that her birthright was in jeopardy appear as the jolly lark, yet really be in possession of some of the most effective (and Doran-like) skills in the game? It's goddamn poetic for one. There's maybe points to be made about the cost of fostering, and (yes, again), communication with children.

I suspect it's all part of a plan that Arianne was always fated to be the heir of Sunspear, and will probably come into her own by the end of the story.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I don’t really want to get too far ahead and talk about Quentyn’s ultimate fate vs. Arianne’s, but it’s seeming to me that their stories invite parallels because they move in an opposite trajectory. What are we to make of Tatters dumping a perfect solution onto Quentyn? And even though we can demonstrate how Arianne outshines Quentyn in her natural leadership, was Martin trying to make a point with her failure juxtaposed to Quetyn’s “success” here?

Or am I just such a Martell fangirl that I’m going to blow any vaguely appropriate comparisons out of proportion…

No. I've always had the impression that Quentyn and Arianne were almost direct opposites of each other when it comes to personality. Because of this, they seem to have opposite strengths and weaknesses. I've said it before and I will say it again here. I really wish we could have seen them work together. I think Arianne possesses all the tactical abilities that Quentyn lacks, and Quentyn possesses the logistical abilities to help reign Arianne in. The one thing they both seem to lack is a key understanding of someone. Arianne seems to never have understood her father well enough until after her little escapade. Quentyn was unable to understand Dany when it was important for him to do so.

[Chebyshov]

No. I've always had the impression that Quentyn and Arianne were almost direct opposites of each other when it comes to personality. Because of this, they seem to have opposite strengths and weaknesses. I've said it before and I will say it again here. I really wish we could have seen them work together. I think Arianne possesses all the tactical abilities that Quentyn lacks, and Quentyn possesses the logistical abilities to help reign Arianne in. The one thing they both seem to lack is a key understanding of someone. Arianne seems to never have understood her father well enough until after her little escapade. Quentyn was unable to understand Dany when it was important for him to do so.

awekfjhasdjajkb. I don't want to make this too much about Arianne. But I strongly disagree that she's bad at reading people. Her situation with Doran was quite unique, and kind of the underpinning of her character. In general, she's an incredibly intuitive woman, and seems to have a very strong understanding of others. And I'm sure you've heard me defend her planning abilities as well. I don't really think she needs reining in so much as she needs a complete data set. Doran was consciously creating a situation that set her up for failure.

The thing is with Quentyn, he has the ability to appraise a situation and its risks, but as you said, he doesn't reach an understanding when it counts. I think he'd be the kind of guy you bring a plan to, and he'd point out the stumbling blocks. But nothing about him suggests that he's on the idea-generation side of things. He might need an Arianne to work with, but I'd argue she doesn't really need a Quentyn. Though her and Doran being in-step is a very, very good thing. Doran, unlike his son, does see risks but can also propose ideas and set a path forward.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

awekfjhasdjajkb. I don't want to make this too much about Arianne. But I strongly disagree that she's bad at reading people. Her situation with Doran was quite unique, and kind of the underpinning of her character. In general, she's an incredibly intuitive woman, and seems to have a very strong understanding of others. And I'm sure you've heard me defend her planning abilities as well. I don't really think she needs reining in so much as she needs a complete data set. Doran was consciously creating a situation that set her up for failure.

I don't believe Arianne is bad at reading people in general. She just ended up having trouble reading Doran, which is much more understandable since the guy keeps his cards so close to his chest. Certainly the situation between Quentyn and Dany was very different, where the information needed was all there for the gathering, he just didn't see it. The reining in part was more an aspect of the fact that Arianne does not seem to perceive risk to the same level that Quentyn does.

The thing is with Quentyn, he has the ability to appraise a situation and its risks, but as you said, he doesn't reach an understanding when it counts. I think he'd be the kind of guy you bring a plan to, and he'd point out the stumbling blocks. But nothing about him suggests that he's on the idea-generation side of things. He might need an Arianne to work with, but I'd argue she doesn't really need a Quentyn.

I agree that Quentyn needs an Arianne more than Arianne needs a Quentyn. But it all depends on how well-thought out you really believe the attempted crowning of Myrcella was. Even Arianne seems to consider that her plan was somewhat foolhardy at a later date. If you consider it to be a risky plan that probably required more thought involved, then having a Quentyn around to better appraise the risks involved would have been helpful. But of course, Quentyn would probably never have come up with a plan at all. Post-coup-attempt Arianne seems to be much more cautious an individual. This is good, she has had time to develop. Quentyn didn't survive his major mistake.

[Julia Martell]

I’m sorry guys, I’m, like, constitutionally incapable of talking about Quentyn without comparing him to someone else. But this is so typical of discussion of Quentyn that I think it might be significant in and of itself. As Raving Stark said, in a story that’s full of remarkable characters, he’s just... normal. Which would normally be fine, but this kid aspires to be an absolute monarch, in which case, normal is the worst. Nicholas II of Russia was normal, and we all know how that turned out for him.

But it’s when were talking about the purpose of the character that I start to get incoherent, there are things I can say, but I don’t know how they fit together. Quentyn has all the elements of being the dashing hero: he’s a prince, a knight, he braved many dangers to get to his lady love, he comes from a line of heroes a thousand years old... but absolutely nothing about him is dashing. He’s outshone by his bodyguard. Is there anything here beyond deconstructing the Hero’s Journey narrative by this point in his arc?

In terms of personality, the character I think he most resembles is Ned. Ned was a shy guy who just wanted a normal life, just like Quentyn essentially is. You get the feeling that if Gerris Drinkwater were trying to maliciously manipulate Quentyn, like Littlefinger manipulated Ned, he would have little trouble succeeding. (Gerris is obviously completely devoted to Quentyn, remember what I said about tinfoil hat stuff!) A difference between them is that Ned isn’t nearly so driven by the need to PLEASE others, to not be a disappointment.

I don’t really see what purpose Quent serves in Dany’s arc either. I don’t see how his offer could have really been a temptation to her even if he was as dashing and badass as Oberyn and Nymeria put together, it just wouldn’t work with HER development at this point in the story. ...I’m getting into my week six stuff now, so I’ll stop.

My point is: this kid is supporting. He plays a supporting role in his own POV.

And yes, I called him a “kid”. As stated above, the author seems to go out of his way to have Quentyn called a boy, even as he’s saying “I’m a knight, I am Dorne” which I consider very interesting when compared to/considered alongside the author’s constant highlighting of Arianne’s physical maturity even as she’s calling herself “a silly little girl”.

This will shock no one, but I agree with Cheb that Arianne doesn’t need a Quentyn. She needs a Doran, or failing that a Daemon. That is, she needs an intellectual equal to share and bounce ideas off with. Quentyn is very smart and well educated. probably even better read than Arianne, but he just doesn’t have that THAT that both Arianne and Doran have. I believe I’ve called it Martell je ne sais quoi in the past because I have no idea what it is, but every Martell but poor Quent seems to have it. It may be as simple as just “people skills” mixed with badassness.

I was enthralled by Raving Stark’s discussion of all the subtext in the Dragon Pit conversation. Quent and I must have more in common than I thought because I got about 10% of that subtext by myself. You who are masters of both reading and generating subtext? Arianne and Doran. Seriously, it’s called The Watcher, go check it out.

I’m sorry to be so stream of conscious, but at this point it was either this or never posting at all.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Thanks for the read, and welcome back. :)

He’s outshone by his bodyguard.

I have a hard time giving Gerris that much credit yet. Gerris certainly has some attributes that Quentyn lacks, but I have yet to be really impressed by Gerris either. He seems to have his own weaknesses. It's possible that Arch may be the most commendable of the three, without having either of their strengths, but seemingly not having any of their weaknesses either. I grant that Quent would have possibly never made it to Mereen without Gerris, but I think I would have to wait to see how things turn out to decide.

In terms of personality, the character I think he most resembles is Ned. Ned was a shy guy who just wanted a normal life, just like Quentyn essentially is.

I couldn't agree more. There is only a subtle difference I think, and this has to do with Ned not being quite as cerebral as Quentyn. Where Quentyn seems to be stymied by thought, at some point Ned listens to his gut.

A difference between them is that Ned isn’t nearly so driven by the need to PLEASE others, to not be a disappointment.

I think this is very very interesting. The question becomes what was the difference that made Ned not so driven to please others. Or was he? It's possible that he never really had that kind of relationship with his father that Quent had with his? The kind of almost worship that Quent seems to have for Doran. Maybe Ned knew his father a little better than Quent knew Doran, or maybe it was the opposite. Then there is the fact that Ned never really was under the kind of pressure that Quent was apparently under as "the heir". Ned got to grow up to find himself and not have the constant pressure of having to be "it". If Ned did attach himself to someone, and not want to disappoint them, it would have probably been Jon Arrryn or Robert. It seems in fact that Ned really did not like to disappoint Robert. It always took Ned awhile to be able to tell him "no".

I don’t really see what purpose Quent serves in Dany’s arc either. I don’t see how his offer could have really been a temptation to her even if he was as dashing and badass as Oberyn and Nymeria put together, it just wouldn’t work with HER development at this point in the story. ...I’m getting into my week six stuff now, so I’ll stop.

I suspect that there will be some sort of repercussions to the death to Quentyn later down the line. The people his death should effect the most should be Arianne and Doran.

My point is: this kid is supporting. He plays a supporting role in his own POV.

Hmmmm. I'd say rather that his character is a supporting one overall.

This will shock no one, but I agree with Cheb that Arianne doesn’t need a Quentyn. She needs a Doran, or failing that a Daemon. That is, she needs an intellectual equal to share and bounce ideas off with. Quentyn is very smart and well educated. probably even better read than Arianne, but he just doesn’t have that THAT that both Arianne and Doran have. I believe I’ve called it Martell je ne sais quoi in the past because I have no idea what it is, but every Martell but poor Quent seems to have it. It may be as simple as just “people skills” mixed with badassness.

Hmmmm. I have to bear in mind that Doran has years of experience on Quentyn. What is to say that Doran wasn't once very much like Quentyn? And as much as I love Arianne, I don't see how she can really claim to be the intellectual equal of Doran at this point. She has certainly learned a lot and made a good deal of development, but she's still a rookie.

I'm not really sure either what it is that Doran and Arianne seem to have in common. I would hazard to say that Doran and Quentyn seem to be more similar than Doran and Arianne.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've been reading from day one, but finally, now, I am capable of actually posting a reply..

Don't get me wrong, I had tried 1,5 weeks ago.. I had typed a reasonable amount, clicked post, and received the message that the forum was offline.. by the time it was back up, the day was over, my laptop had erased the post from memory, and another essay had already been posted..

The last few weeks have been quite busy, but this week, I thought of a strategy. Formulating a reply across several days, and posting it as a whole when finally done. :) I have not forgotten this reread :) Go Quentyn!!

Sweet, sweet Quentyn.. Probably one of the more underestimated arcs of the series.. The dornish do seem to have that problem in general, judging by posts from the kingdom. But Quentyn's arc has been described as "useless" at times by people, and that does not do him justice.

So, I'm writing my reply dividing the weeks, as two analysis have already been posted (and the third one might be up before I have finished typing this)..

First off: @Cheboshov and @Illuminated by Fire, great analysis! :D

Week 1: The Merchants Man
In Quentyn's first chapter, in fact, in our first actual introduction to Quentyn, we see he is rather different from the picture Arianne had been painting of him in A Feast for Crows. He's not a plotter, who is trying to steal Arianne's seat away from her. He's an insecure young man, who is trying to fullfill his fathers commands, who wants to help his father get vengeance.

And we immediately see, in this chapter, that, while Arianne is completely at ease with her sexuality, Quentyn definitly is not. I agree that the girl Quentyn thinks about shortly ("A good honest face, but you should smile more") was indeed just being nice to him, not trying to be negative or anything. Yet it becomes clear that Quentyn has, at least at the moment, a hard time smiling even a little bit.

Quentyn is insecure. "Sometimes he lay awake imagining her face and form, and wondering why such a woman would ever want to marry him." And as a reason why Daenerys would want to marry him, he doesn't think "but I am kind", or "I am smart, and could help her in her war.". Instead, it's only "I am Dorne. She will want Dorne."

I think Quentyn's unease originates from his upbringing. Quentyn has a large feeling of responsibility. He was born a second child, not in line to inherit, and I suspect that, as a shy kid, he was fine with that. Then, rather young, he is send away from home, and either he was send away with the knowledge that he was supposed to rule Dorne, or he learned it very shortly thereafter. (just for memory's sake, Quentyn was born in 281 AC, and Arianne found the letter of Doran emphasizing that Quentyn was supposed to inherit Dorne in 290 AC).

As a shy person, with a low self image, this most likely was hard on Quentyn. He is going to be the ruler of Dorne, he needs to gain respect. How does he do that? I can imagine him wondering about such things. As a ruler, he would need to gain the respect of his bannermen, he would need to speak in front of high lords with confidence, to rule with ease, to make the best decisions in difficult times that he could make. Quite some pressure, for someone who never was supposed to inherit, and then is suddenly send away from home with the message "You shall rule all of Dorne".

As we see with the mummery of playing the wine seller and the merchants man, Quentyn seems slightly more comfortable following orders, than he is at giving them. That changes slightly over the course of his arc, but we shall see and discuss that later on, I suppose.

Yet Quentyn has also shows that he has been working towards his goal of trying to gain respect of the bannermen of Dorne. Instead of accepting knighthood from his uncle, Oberyn, he accepted knighthood from Lord Yronwood instead. One could wonder if Quentyn received his knighthood from Oberyn as a favor, instead of earning it (similar to like how Laenor Velaryon was knighted a fortnight before marrying Rhaenyra Targaryen, because it was deemed important that as a prince consort, he was also a knight). Yronwood knighting Quentyn would, perhaps in Quentyn's eyes, be deemed more important, deemed worth more, by the other Lords in Dorne. Making him more worthy of their respect. We see that this is important to Quentyn later on as well, when he thinks about the Sand Snakes.

While it seems that Doran is capable of making decisions, he keeps most of the thigns that he has decided to himself. Quentyn, on the other hand, is rather undecisive, showing, as I said above, that he wants to make the best choice of them all.. He's worried he will make a mistake..

What becomes clear in this chapter, definitly, is that Quentyn is completely different from how Arianne made him sound like. Emphasizing the fact that they don't really know one another. And how could they? They differ 5 years in age, meaning that Arianne left the Water Gardens around the time Quentyn arrived. And after Quentyn's Water Garden time was up, (or perhaps even cut short) he was send away from home. They did not spend all too much time together, it would seem.

Another thing is, while Arianne thinks about Quentyn frequently (and continues to do so, even after discovering that he is not after her place in the succession), Quentyn doesn't think about Arianne at all. He thinks about his father, his mother, the Sand Snakes... But never Arianne. (also never Trystane btw, but when Trystane was born, Quentyn was most likely at the Water Gardens already, and Trys would have been only 3, or younger, when Quent left Sunspear/Water Gardens for Yronwood). Quentyn's time in the Water Gardens would have mostly overlapped with Sarella Sand (b. 280/281 AC). Perhaps that might turn out to be important eventually. But that's one that would require some more thoughts..

Chebyshov's Observations/Discussion Questions:
-Would Quentyn have boarded Adventure, despite having acknowledged that it would probably mean their deaths, if Gerris had not suggested the Windblown?
*Looking at the pattern of indecisiveness, Quentyn might have decided to board the ship that day, and changed his mind the next day. He was desperate to succeed in his mission, but even he would know that dying before reaching Meereen would be kind of useless.

-Plankytown Gate
*I don't think we can call it such. We know too little of the event to say anything about it. For example, Quentyn doesn't state where they were toasting to Quentyn's future bride. Was it in an inn? Highly unlikely. Perhaps a room they had rented, to sleep, meaning that they toasted in private. Quentyn and his friends were not spotted toasting. They were spotted in Planky Town when looking for a ship. Looking for a ship, after all, occurs out in the harbor, and there, people can see you.

-Why not kiss a Drinkwater twin?
*Like I said, Quentyn was preparing to rule Dorne, and in need for the respect of his bannermen. Perhaps he felt that kissing girls would result in the opposite.. If Quentyn takes Doran as an example of how a ruling Prince should act, he could have figured that remainging true to your wife (no matter how bad the marriage is) is the way he should act as well.
A few more kisses (and not necessarily from the Drinkwater twins) might have boosted his self-image a bit, though.

-What does Quentyn mean with "Gwyneth is quick with her hands"?
*As she was 12 in 300 AC, and thus 11 when Quentyn left Yronwood, combined with the fact that Quentyn is already uncomfortable with kissing, probably something rather innocent :p . Like, she was quick to grab and hold his hand when walking next to him. She was planning on marrying him after all!

-What happens when we place Daemon Sand and Gerris Drinkwater in the same room?
*If GRRM ever wants to write a pre-ASOIAF novella/novelette about some minor characters for fun, this one would be in my top five :)

-We are the Windblown.... Blowing towards plot convenience, literally planning to encounter Dany
*I can already hear the music :D

Week 2: The Windblown
Quentyn "hopped so fast when the big man shouted a command" again shows Quentyn being comfortable with following commands (though I should already say that that does not stop Quentyn from giving out commands later on, on his own, or even in this chapter, when he discusses when to abandon the Windblown).

@Illuminated by Fire, what you say is indeed what I suggested above.. Quentyn earning his knighthood, and the manner in which he earned it, would have made him feel like he gained at least some respect. During the Windblown ruse, they indeed have taken that accomplishment away from him.

The decision to leave the armor and gold behind, made certain the three could blend in with the other members of the Windblown.

(Continueing writing on another day)

Interesting observation, when he refers to himself as Quentyn, and when as Frog.

The fact that neither Quentyn has thought about Daenerys possibly being mad like her father, could be a show on how he focussed on his mission, and his mission alone. Not wanting to disappoint Doran by doubting anything Doran has (or hasn't) said. The fact that Doran apparently never spoke about the possibilty, could be a show that Doran does not want to consider that this plan could possibly fail.. Daenerys has to be a sane person, otherwise, Doran's plans won't work.. So he doesn't even consider (at least to Quentyn) the possibility.

Week 3: Interlude

@Raving Stark the Mad, well written! By the time I could continue writing my post, your analysis had found its way online as well.

While the first set of descriptions are quite focussed on physical appearance, where the looks are concerned, the second set of descriptions about Quentyn contain a bit more character traits.. They've looked past the face, and to the person.

I don’t think that Quentyn staying quiet until all of court is cleared is a show of shyness.. Court clears, and Archibald and Gerris do what Dany had requested.. They introduce themselves. Quentyn, on the other hand, doesn’t, and instead first wants to fulfil his mission… Giving Daenerys the contract, and revealing why he is there. He can hardly reveal who he truly is in front of all of the court… People hear, and people talk..

It’s a sad thing that Dany laughed when Quentyn told her who he was.. A boy with his shyness, so uncomfortable around women, doesn’t need being laughed at when saying his name. (Nor does he deserve it).

Quentyn raises in defence when Dorne is insulted.. Not when he himself is insulted, as @Raving Stark the Mad says. This might be in part because of the higher sense of nationalism that exists amongst the Dornish, and in part because Quentyn grew up believing he would represent Dorne. He would rule Dorne.. He would be Dorne..

Showing Quentyn the dragons, I think, was a last chance for him to show strength in his character, a strength that Dany had seen before in Drogo, Jorah, Daario, perhaps even Hizdhar. But Quentyn, shy, passive, and scared, fails this “test”.

But, Dany is not unkind. She tries to comfort Quentyn a bit, by saying that she is frightened by the dragons as well. I can’t recall reading that she was ever frightened of a dragon before that point..

When all else seems to fail, Quentyn throws in his last card. He’s distantly related to Dany.. But instead of associating it with fierceness, bravery and such, Quentyn starts to talk about the Water Gardens, such a peacefull place…. Completely the opposite, and completely not impressing Dany.

Luckily Quentyn shows the Martell stubborness in the last quote you posted... :)

(Continueing on yet another day...)

The conclusion Dany reaches of Quentyn differs greatly from the conclusion Barristan reaches. The way I felt it when I read it, Daenerys feels that Quentyn is in no way ready for all that is to come. Quentyn is peace, pleasant.. Meereen, Slaver’s Bay, and soon Westeros, are war. Dragons are power, strength, and war. Barristan, on the other hand, is convinced that Quentyn, should he remain in Meereen, is in danger, simply due to his presence. That’s not so weird. Quentyn is a stranger to Meereen, and had come to court a woman moments shortly her wedding. Any man would take that as an insult, I’d guess. And without any friends around to help you, you make such an easy target..

Btw, I love Barristans short thought about Doran.. You’d almost forget the know each other :)

The problem with that is, that Barristan only knows the man Doran portrays himself to be. We know that Doran plots, Barristan doesn’t seem to know that. So he compares Quentyn to the man he thinks Doran is.. Which might not necessarily reflect who Quentyn is, on the inside.

But Barristan shows that Dany did not reject Quentyn purely for his looks, or for political reasons. Dany is a young girls, Barristan tells us. She is fire, Quentyn is mud. That’s personality, we’re speaking of. And certainly, the way Quentyn has presented himself, he surely comes of as such.

It is Barristan who is making the comparisons, and who is judging both Quentyn and Dany, and Barristan, we should remember, is not all-knowing.. It seems that Barristan believes that a more handsome face would have been able to turn the tables, and to prevent the marriage to Hizdahr. But is that true? Just moments before, Barristan thought to himself that, like a good Queen, Daenerys put her people’s needs in front of her own desires. So perhaps, indeed, Barristan’s thoughts on “if Gerris had been the prince…” are whishfull thinking, on his part.

When Barristan tells Quentyn to leave, Quentyn asks “the pyramid?”, which comes across as a bit naïve.. Barristan means the city.. return to Dorne. But Quentyn’s stubbornness surfaces again.

Barristan shows that he values Quentyn’s life more than any attempt to reach the “what if” situation. He’d prefer getting Quentyn safely out of the city and back to Dorne, instead of keeping him around, waiting for Daenerys to return, and try to convince Daenerys to marry Quentyn (instead of Hizdarh, besides Hizdarh..). Perhaps this is just him listening to “It is to late”, which was Daenerys’ opinion. And perhaps Barristan is trying to keep Dorne as a potential ally (as an insulted Quentyn, or a framed Quentyn, or a dead Quentyn, will not help in getting Dorne’s 50.000 spears to Daenerys’ side). It seems that this is later on in the chapter reinforced by thinking to himself that Quentyn should not be caught up in the blood bad to come.

Barristan says it quite harshly, and finally (finally!) we see anger flashing in Quentyn’s eyes. A foreign man is no fit consort for a Westerosi queen, Quentyn tells us. But, Quentyn, wouldn’t that make Daenerys (foreign to Slaver’s Bay) an unfit Queen for Meereen? Yet Quentyn doesn’t ever say a word about such, IIRC.

Quentyn’s character here safe him, when Barristan tries to test if he had been the poisoner. His anger disappears, and honest confusion surfaces. “Either you placed the poison, or you didn’t and they’ll say that you did”, is basically what Barristan tells him. “Either you did it, or you’ll be blamed for it.”

When Barristan leaves and Quentyn calls after him, we see what might be Quentyn’s most inner bit that we are shows without being in his head (do you get what I mean?). Barristan was bold, and is thus remembered as such. If Quentyn returns to Dorne empty-handed, having failed his mission, he fears that that will haunt him forever.

Personally, after reading the World Book, I find Barristans “Quentyn the Wise” a bit… I don’t know. Not strange, not chilling, but… I can’t think of the right word for it. Aerys II, upon his ascension, hoped to later be remembered as Aerys the Wise.. Barristan was his KG from the start, having accepted the White Cloak during Jaehaerys’ reign.. Barristan will have most likely known how Aerys wished to be remembered. But Aerys let himself be consumed by thoughts about fire, and dragons (if Jaime can be believed), in the end… For Quentyn, the same happens, though in a slightly different matter… Aerys “the Wise” became convinced (according to Jaime) that he’d rise as a dragon if he would burn the city to the ground. “Be Quentyn the Wise”, is Barristans counsel, and Quentyn eventually dies due to a combination of dragons and fire.. Easter egg from GRRM? Can’t be foreshadowing, World Book came only later, Dance was here first.

@Raving Stark the Mad, you asked why GRRM even created Quentyn the way he did, if Quentyn was always destined to fail his mission… Why not create a handsome prince, who would tear Dany’s thoughts about what to do in half, making her unsure of whether or not she had done the right thing, etc… First of all, Daario would have felt threatened, and it would have been out-of-character, perhaps, had Daario not acted against Quentyn in such a case. If Quentyn had been like Arianne or Oberyn, all secure about his sexuality, capable of seeming confident, whether he actually was confident or not, a simple “no” from Dany would not have done it by far. Instead, GRRM gives her a rather difficult choice: the handsome man, smooth talking, whom she doesn’t care for, but who will safe all her freedmen? Or the more plain-looking, but pleasant man, who will give her an army, but will require her to give up all she has accomplished at Meereen? Dany does not want to leave her “children”.. They are opposites…

In addition, we have a few sources on Doran Martell. Ser Arys, who barely knows Doran; Arianne, who, it becomes clear, despite knowing Doran, doesn’t know him entirely; Areo Hotah, who knows only what Doran shows; Tyrion and Tywin, who have not seen or spoken to Doran ever (Tyrion) or in at least 17 years (Tywin); Oberyn, who most definitely was not truthful about Doran (at least not completely), when speaking to Tyrion; Barristan, who likewise, hasn’t seen Doran in quite some time; and Quentyn.

From all of these sources, a certain picture is painted of Doran, and it isn’t necessarily a favourable one. Doran is described as weak, too cautious, too scared, sick, a man whose strength is failing..

In addition, we have multiple people comparing Quentyn to Doran, both looks and character.

Why not make Quentyn a dashing prince? Because then he couldn’t be as easily be shown to be a rather obvious parallel to Doran.. “Quentyn looks like Doran. Quentyn, he’s his fathers son.” The more casual reader will get the vibe that Quentyn and Doran are quite the same… (Our Arianne reread has shown that there’s more to Doran than meets the eye, and we’re not at all there yet, with Doran). And Quentyn tries, and fails.. Will Doran fail as well? The casual reader might think so..

Quentyn’s looks created part of his personality, and the look into his personality, in addition to the comparisons to Doran, are necessary, as they paint the reader a picture of Doran… If that is indeed what GRRM intends.. We can’t look inside of Doran’s head, but we can look into the heads of two of his children.. I’d say that Doran is a mixture of the two.. And completely understanding both Arianne and Quentyn will give us an idea on how Doran thinks, and acts, and will act.

[Illuminated by Fire]

Before introducing himself, Quent decides to present the secret pact first. This seems to speak volumes without Quent saying anything at all. Quent has always believed that the one ace in the hole he had, the one way he was going to win over “the most beautiful woman in the world”, was with the advantages of the political alliance, and the concept that Dany “must” honor the agreement. This falls straight back into Quent’s lack of confidence in himself. He will not even present himself until the agreement itself is presented. He hopes that nothing about himself, or anything he does, is key to the success of the mission.

There does seem to be some merit to Quent’s line of thinking. Dany is certainly not marrying Hizdahr because she loves him, though it seems he’s not exactly hard to look at either. Dany is certainly not marrying Daario despite the fact that she is extremely attracted to him and he apparently has no problems satisfying her physically. Nevertheless, Quentyn has again managed to limit his options by taking himself out of the equation almost immediately, which no one else ever quite does, including Dany.

This is a very good point. I think his motivation influences his approach. He is driven by duty, so the means he uses to fulfill it are the 'official' ones. Appealing to the pact that was made, calling himself her 'most leal subject', appealing to his status as a Prince of Dorne and mentioning Dorne's military stengths. This is furthered by his own insecurities, but the motivation itself already colors the methods he uses. At the end it hurts his cause, because he already limits himself, his options and his perspective.

I agree that Quentyn needs an Arianne more than Arianne needs a Quentyn. But it all depends on how well-thought out you really believe the attempted crowning of Myrcella was. Even Arianne seems to consider that her plan was somewhat foolhardy at a later date. If you consider it to be a risky plan that probably required more thought involved, then having a Quentyn around to better appraise the risks involved would have been helpful. But of course, Quentyn would probably never have come up with a plan at all. Post-coup-attempt Arianne seems to be much more cautious an individual. This is good, she has had time to develop. Quentyn didn't survive his major mistake.

The problem here is that you can compare their respective strengths and weaknesses all you want, they only magnify the underlying situation: Arianne plans because it was her agenda. She wants to be the ruler of Dorne, it is her ambition. Quentyn never wanted to be king, he was thrust into this situation. Arianne was forced to act by the appearance of Quentyn, but she had time to plan and exploring her options. Quentyn could have very well come up with a plan, but he lacks the distance to form it. To put it simple: He has tunnelvision. There is always this nagging thought that he must not fail, but that kind of hinders his ability to distance himself, although he does try. Apart from that I am not convinced that Arianne is that much more competent in that regard (yes, I read the Arianne reread). The reason that Quentyn is killed by his plan and Arianne survives hers is in the end that Doran is more merciful than a dragon. As you said, she had time to develop. On the other hand we do not even know if Doran ever send his letter to Quentyn in the first place. The starting conditions are very different.

Personally, after reading the World Book, I find Barristans “Quentyn the Wise” a bit… I don’t know. Not strange, not chilling, but… I can’t think of the right word for it. Aerys II, upon his ascension, hoped to later be remembered as Aerys the Wise.. Barristan was his KG from the start, having accepted the White Cloak during Jaehaerys’ reign.. Barristan will have most likely known how Aerys wished to be remembered. But Aerys let himself be consumed by thoughts about fire, and dragons (if Jaime can be believed), in the end… For Quentyn, the same happens, though in a slightly different matter… Aerys “the Wise” became convinced (according to Jaime) that he’d rise as a dragon if he would burn the city to the ground. “Be Quentyn the Wise”, is Barristans counsel, and Quentyn eventually dies due to a combination of dragons and fire.. Easter egg from GRRM? Can’t be foreshadowing, World Book came only later, Dance was here first.

Interesting thought. I do not have the World Book, so I could not pick up on it. But that could certainly be true and would add a nice dimension to that exchange.

Quentyn lays out an argument based primarily on his perception by others. This may be a somewhat simplistic view considering who he is and the importance he himself places upon success. There are many causes at play when it comes to Quentyn’s refusal to leave Mereen, and worry about how people will perceive his failure is only one of them.

But just as important as what drives him to stay is what he did not possess that would have enabled him to lay low or leave. Determination or stubborn-ness always leads to disaster at a certain point. What Quentyn lacked was the wisdom and experience to know when to fold.

To quote that exchange again:

Before he had gone three steps, Quentyn Martell called out to him. "Barristan the Bold, they call you."

"Some do."

[...]

"What name do you think they will give me, should I return without Daenerys?" Prince Quentyn asked. "Quentyn the Cautious? Quentyn the Craven? Quentyn the Quail?"

The Prince Who Came Too Late, the old knight thought... but if a knight of the Kingsguard learns nothing else, he learns to guard his tongue. "Quentyn the Wise," he suggested. And hoped it was true.

I think Quentyn's last line marks a bit of a turning point for him. This is the other side of his awareness of his responsibilities. He knows what others expect from him. But the other side of disappointment is pride, and this is was he displays here. In the first audience with Daenerys he defends Dorne when it is insulted and ignores the insults to his person. But this is personal. He defines himself over his responsibilities and his status and he knows that should he fail on this mission this will fall back on his person and him alone. And that is the transition to his pride in Dorne to his pride in himself. Whereas the other situation where his pride was hurt was regarding his earned status as a knight, this regards his duty as a representant of Dorne and this is what leads to this outburst. If he fails he cannot face himself ever again. When Barristan asks him to leave the city and he answers with "Leave the pyramid?" this could display his naivete, but I took it more as a sign that returning to Dorne without Daenerys never even occured to him. Surrender is simply not an option.

You said that he bases his argument on the perception of others. My point is, that since he defines himself to a large degree over his role as a Prince of Dorne, as a representant of Dorne, the difference between the perception of others and his personal pride ceases to exist. In this particular case, they are one and the same. You could argue that it was unwise to stay, and to an extent I agree. From Dorne they could have sought different options. But in this case it is a matter of priorities more than a matter of wisdom.

On a more personal note, this is probably my favorite line of Quentyn Martell. In this one moment, I admired him.

There are many more thoughts that deserve answer, but most has already been said and it is impossible to answer to everyone.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Quentyn III: The Spurned Suitor

Summary:

With Daenerys gone, and despite Barristan's honest advice, Quentyn hasn't given up. He doesn't want to return to Dorne with empty hands. He arranges a meeting with the Tattered Prince for one more shoot at fulfilling his mission to bring Fire and Blood to Dorne, despite everybody and their mothers telling him not to.

~~

We start the chapter with our heroes at the hour of the ghosts (much past midnight, I think. Around 2am. It's past Quent's bed time, anyway), a perfect time for conspiracy and secrecy. We also find out that the Windblown men aren't exactly happy to see them. And while money always catches the eye of a sellsword, Quentyn's enterprise is worth of a drunk or a mad man. And he doesn't have that much money...

"We should be heeding Selmy. When Barristan the Bold tells you to run, a wise man laces up his boots"

Well, yes. Thanks, Gerris. Despite Barristan thinking Gerris is 'fake coin' (whatever that means for him...), Gerris is making sense, here. There is nothing wrong with retire when a battle is lost. Barristan should know. He has seen many of them. He wants to return to Volantis, and from them, to Dorne.

Volantis, Quentyn thought. Then Lys, then home. Back the way I came, empty-handed. Three brave men dead, for what?

It would be sweet to see the Greenblood again, to visit Sunspear and the Water Gardens and breathe the clean sweet mountain air of Yronwood in place of the hot, wet, filthy humors of Slaver's Bay. His father would speak no word of rebuke, Quentyn knew, but the disappointment would be there in his eyes. His sister would be scornful, the Sand Snakes would mock him with smiles sharp as swords, and Lord Yronwood, his second father, who had sent his own son along to keep him safe ...

Oh... Martell Guilt at its finest! We'll get back at the bold part.

"I will not keep you here," Quentyn told his friends. "My father laid this task on me, not you. Go home, if that is what you want. By whatever means you like. I am staying."

Yeah, that's not dramatic, Quent. Of course, his two men and friends decided to stay. Really, what did he expect?

Denzo D'han shows up next time and they discuss the terms for their meeting. They agreed to arrive at sunset and bring two men each part.

"If it please my prince." The words were polite enough, but Denzo's tone was edged with malice, and the eyes of the warrior poet gleamed bright with mockery. "Come at sunset. And see that you are not followed."

The three amigos left the pyramid much before the sunset, just in case. They have their weapons with them, just in case, as well.

"It is still not too late to abandon this folly," Gerris said, as they made their way down a foetid alley toward the old spice market. The smell of piss was in the air, and they could hear the rumble of a corpse cart's iron-rimmed wheels off ahead. "Old Bill Bone used to say that Pretty Maris could stretch out a man's dying for a moon's turn. We lied to them, Quent. Used them to get us here, then went over to the Stormcrows."

Once more we're told that our heroes won't be well received by Tatters. Up until that point we don't really know what Quentyn is up to, but we know that the Dornish knights are deserters and they caused some of Tatters' men to be imprisoned. Quentyn expects gold will be enough, even though they don't have it. But that's not their only concern and danger about this mission: the Harzoos are divided about the dragons: some hate them, some still defend them. The Harzoo who tried to kill one of the dragons is seen as a hero by some.

"[..]He was no dragonslayer. All he did was get his arse roasted black and crispy."

"He was brave." Would I have the courage to face that monster with nothing but a spear?

"He died bravely, is what you mean."

"He died screaming," said Arch.

OMG LOOK AT THE FORESHADOWING, thanks you very much, George. Well... to be honest, that's what happens to men who try to meddle with dragons, Quent. It doesn't even need to be SO BLATANTLY pointed out. Ah, and Dany will still be married even if she returns. That's kind of a biggy Gerry accurately points out too.

They do not see. His friends had lost sight of his true purpose here. The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself. " 'The dragon has three heads,' she said to me. 'My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes,' she said. 'I know why you are here. For fire and blood.' I have Targaryen blood in me, you know that. I can trace my lineage back -"

"Fuck your lineage," said Gerris. "The dragons won't care about your blood, except maybe how it tastes. You cannot tame a dragon with a history lesson. They're monsters, not maesters. Quent, is this truly what you want to do?"

I ask the same. "This is truly what you want to do?", that's a question that populates all of Quent's arc. No. This is not what he wants to do. But he has to. For Dorne. For his father. For Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry.

"They're dead," said Gerris. "They won't care."

Gerris is been extremely sensate this chapter, tbh. And while Gerris is full of wisdom, Quentyn is full with denial, foolish recklessness and blindness. Yes. Gerris has a point. They are dead. Dead people serves little purpose except being mourned. "Men's lives have meaning, not their deaths". Quentyn has now decided, sadly, to play the hero and grown some balls. Which is not actually wrong, but it's a wrong scenario and situation.

Either way, they reached their meeting place (and find Zharina there... mmm...), and just like the path to it, it stinks. Like Adventure stank. And this particularly adventure is already rotten from starters. The author is telling us what the streets are telling Quentyn. And he won't see. He sees there are one too many, though. Tatters has already outplayed Quentyn. He brought two men... and one woman. "An old sellsword is a cautious sellsword", indeed.

...and he's mad. Quentyn calls him out for his trick, which is kinda brave considering he is a deserter. But he's a prince and he lets Tatters know he's Prince Quentyn from Maldonia, moments before he squashes him of house Martell. To his luck, Tatters will listen to the Prince because frog princes are always a curiosity. And while Quentyn politely ask for his pardon and offer explanations, Tatters has already heard all kind of excuses before.

"I am a prince of Dorne," said Quentyn. "I had a duty to my father and my people. There was a secret marriage pact."

"So I heard. And when the silver queen saw your scrap of parchment she fell into your arms, yes?"

LOL. Well, I'm sure that excuse Tatters hasn't heard before. Yet, he's barely ruffled.

"No," said Pretty Meris.

"No? Oh, I recall. Your bride flew off on a dragon. Well, when she returns, do be sure to invite us to your nuptials. The men of the company would love to drink to your happiness, and I do love a Westerosi wedding. The bedding part especially, only ... oh, wait ..." He turned to Denzo D'han. "Denzo, I thought you told me that the dragon queen had married some Ghiscari."
"A Meereenese nobleman. Rich."
The Tattered Prince turned back to Quentyn. "Could that be true?
Surely not. What of your marriage pact?"
"She laughed at him," said Pretty Meris.

Oh, Quent. No one cares about your marriage pact... :(

Daenerys never laughed. The rest of Meereen might see him as an amusing curiosity, like the exiled Summer Islander King Robert used to keep at King's Landing, but the queen had always spoken to him gently.

"We came too late," said Quentyn.
"A pity you did not desert me sooner."

Poor Quentyn, oh, darling...

It's interesting the fact that Tatters mocks Quentyn in such a "in-your-face" attitude because there is some truth in what he says. Also, Quentyn is facing now exactly what he doesn't want to face in Dorne from his cousins and sister: he came to late and failed his mission. He is suffering from Tatters now and he felt the same about Dezno before, he felt him mocking him. Because Quentyn's situation is borderline ridiculous at that point, and maybe, always was ridiculous, absurd. But Quentyn doesn't mind his mockery because Dany never laughed at him. That matters to him. But not laughing doesn't mean acceptance either, Quent. He pitied you and wanted you to be safe, not encourage you.

War is still around, though, and that's either good or bad for a sellsword. The boss of the morning could be the enemy at sunset and the Harzoos change bosses like Aerys changed hands. Tatters' swords are ready for whoever might need them. And Dorne needs them. Well, Quentyn. Who is also Dorne. Kinda. Tatters is shocked finally. "yeah, kid... you have balls but your word is kinda trash, you know?" Doesnt matter. Quentyn will pay double. Well, his father wil.. Because he's a man of honour. Quentyn's word assures it. And what does the prince whose word they can't trust want?

"I need you to help me steal a dragon."

See. If this were a movie, or a tv show (#fuckhbo) this would be the cliffhanger, with a pretty epic background music and Quentyn looking epicaly awesome, while Tatters and the presents look astonished at his bravery. But...

Caggo Corpsekiller chuckled. Pretty Meris curled her lip in a half-smile. Denzo D'han whistled.

But Tatters was calm. He didn't mock him nor laughed. Quentyn asks too much. And offers little, he says.

"If you want me to triple - "
"What I want," said the Tattered Prince, "is Pentos."

Now, THAT'S the cue for the epic background music and the cliffhanger...

~~

ANALYSIS

You know English is not my native language. So, while my Spanish copy translates literally the title, I decided to look for the word Spurned in the dictionary, just in case.

From thefreedictionary.com:
To reject with disdain or contempt.
To reject something contemptuously.

merriam-webster:
to refuse to accept (someone or something that you do not think deserves your respect, attention, affection, etc.)

dictionary.com
to reject with disdain; scorn.
to treat with contempt; despise.

We know the titles in Feast and Dance (or mostly of them at least) are correspondent with what the characters are and feel, and how they see themselves or what they are supposed/expected to be. Alayne, the Ugly Girl, The Lost Lord, The Prince of Winterfell. But, rather than see himself as a Spurned Suitor, Quentyn is perceived as such. But is he really?

A very well used literary device is the Scorned Woman. "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned". We've met one in Dance, or at least, someone who plays the role very well: Lady Dustin. And Lady Dustin is full with denial about Brandon. Brandon most likely used her but she blames everybody else: Cat, Ned, Rickard. Yet, she has nice words about Brandon (so far). She is unable to see the truth of Brandon being a completely jerk. In Quentyn's case, Dany didn't use him. She never mocked him nor made him feel less. He says that and it's true. But, unlike Quentyn, we have Dany's thoughts for the time he meets the Dragons. And she found her unsuitable. Quentyn doesn't know this. Quentyn doesn't see this. Dany is polite, kind and courteous, as much as Dany can be. But she sees he's not meant to dance with Dragons. Barristan sees this too. His friends. The Court of Meereen. What does Quentyn sees or cannot see?

They do not see. His friends had lost sight of his true purpose here. The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself. " 'The dragon has three heads,' she said to me. 'My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes,' she said. 'I know why you are here. For fire and blood.'

Quentyn is deluded and he's deflecting the rejection. "Pfff... she was NEVER the prize!! It was the Dragons!". And while he's right that Dany didn't mock him, he didn't get the message she wanted to give him. Dany told him that he shouldn't lose hope, but that doesn't mean she was going to put her dragons at his service either.

And just like "woman scorned" is a popular trope in which the aforementioned woman goes and try to kill the man who scorned her, a male paralel is that such male makes the rejection a challenge and a quest, specially is such man is a knight, which, in this case, he is. But he does it badly. Yes. he does have a point, but come one... having Targ blood doesn't mean you're going to go and ace dragon riding, Quent. History books also tell that. Also, what's wrong with you? Stealing one dragon from Dany still would leave him with TWO dragons. And she's going to be very pissed at you and at Dorne that you stole one of her children.

Quentyn is one of the three suitors of Dany in Dance, and this is something I mentioned in previous posts. He's the worst of her suitors because, while he's the only one who has interacted with her (so far) she doesn't get Dany. Many say that Doran failed on sending Quentyn to Dany, but the true is that Doran probably never expected her to be a conquering Queen but a fearful child with three small lizards. I think Quentyn was enough for that: "Oh, sweet Dany. I have ships and Dorne to your service!". ACOK DAny would have jumped into Quentyn's arms. But ACOK Dany died when she burnt the slavers in Astapor and crucified 163 of them in Dorne.

We don't have an Aegon's pov, but we have Victarion. And Victarion's pov changes from "The IRON Suitor" to Victarion when he realises what he needs to do (with help, though). "The most beautiful woman in the word has an urgent need of my axe", he says and he's right. Aegon is not different. Yes, Aegon expected her to marry him, but he has already realised (thanks to Tyrion), she's not a child that will fall for Prince Charming.They both need Dany to achieve a goal, but they both have realised that if they want something from Dany, they need to give the same. Aegon is already cleaning the path from Usurpers, and Victarion is on his way to kick some Essosi ass.

And Quentyn doesn't see it.

It's like he has completely forgotten that he's Doran's son in this chapter, just when he actually needs to be his own father. Yes, take a few steps back is not a bad strategy: Gerris' advice this time is not wrong. In fact, in his situation, is the smartest one. He needs to stop and think what's the best for him and Dorne. Rushing foolishly into a quest to honour dead men is not. That's what Oberyn wanted to do: raise banners for VIserys and fight... well.. everybody to avenge his sister. And Doran stopped him because he was going to lose and die. And with him, many Dornishmen. He waited patiently for more than ten years and his chance arrived. This was Quentyn's moment for waiting and reconsider his options. Wait for Dany, or even go and find her.

It's a pity Quent decided not to listen this time. A Prince must also listen to others, and then decide. A Prince should also play well his cards. Stealing dragons with sellswords was never a good card.

[XSarellaX]

You raise a good point here: Quent should have learned from his father. People mocked Doran for years for being to passive, and instead of acting rashly to please Dorne, the sandsnakes, etc, he took his time to make a plan that actually had a chance of succeeding.

But when you're the sort of person that blames yourself for everything bad that happens, and things don't go according to the plan, you automatically think: "this is all my fault, I must have done something wrong. I have to fix it. I'll try harder".

[XSarellaX]

BTW, I hate re-read threads. They're so good I feel intellectualy inferior all the time :(

[Chebyshov]

Very excellent summary and analysis, JCRB, and quite amusing as well. Especially:

OMG LOOK AT THE FORESHADOWING, thanks you very much, George. Well... to be honest, that's what happens to men who try to meddle with dragons, Quent. It doesn't even need to be SO BLATANTLY pointed out. Ah, and Dany will still be married even if she returns. That's kind of a biggy Gerry accurately points out too.

When I read over it, I couldn't believe how thinly veiled that was :lol:. In fact, my note in my margin there was “oh.”

We know the titles in Feast and Dance (or mostly of them at least) are correspondent with what the characters are and feel, and how they see themselves or what they are supposed/expected to be. Alayne, the Ugly Girl, The Lost Lord, The Prince of Winterfell. But, rather than see himself as a Spurned Suitor, Quentyn is perceived as such. But is he really?

A very well used literary device is the Scorned Woman. "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned". We've met one in Dance, or at least, someone who plays the role very well: Lady Dustin. And Lady Dustin is full with denial about Brandon. Brandon most likely used her but she blames everybody else: Cat, Ned, Rickard. Yet, she has nice words about Brandon (so far). She is unable to see the truth of Brandon being a completely jerk. In Quentyn's case, Dany didn't use him. She never mocked him nor made him feel less. He says that and it's true. But, unlike Quentyn, we have Dany's thoughts for the time he meets the Dragons. And she found her unsuitable. Quentyn doesn't know this. Quentyn doesn't see this. Dany is polite, kind and courteous, as much as Dany can be. But she sees he's not meant to dance with Dragons. Barristan sees this too. His friends. The Court of Meereen. What does Quentyn sees or cannot see?

Yeah, Quentyn clinging to Dany’s “need not be the end of all your hopes” was just so indicative of his desperation. It’s like he blocked out the rest of the conversation that happened, including when he nearly shit himself looking at the dragons, demonstrating to us and Dany that he is no dragonrider. I can’t think he actually thinks this is his destiny. He was not fond of those dragons. But his good ol’ Martell Guilt™ requires him to stay, so by god he’s going to get something out of this. And hold on to whatever shred of hope he has.

And just like "woman scorned" is a popular trope in which the aforementioned woman goes and try to kill the man who scorned her, a male parallel is that such male makes the rejection a challenge and a quest, specially is such man is a knight, which, in this case, he is. But he does it badly. Yes. he does have a point, but come one... having Targ blood doesn't mean you're going to go and ace dragon riding, Quent. History books also tell that. Also, what's wrong with you? Stealing one dragon from Dany still would leave him with TWO dragons. And she's going to be very pissed at you and at Dorne that you stole one of her children.

Not to mention, Dany is the prize. When Doran talks about “Fire and Blood,” he’s talking about literally restoring the Targs to the throne, with the Martells positioned beside them. He’s talking about making the Lannisters pay and getting their enemies. I guess if Quentyn was somehow successful and flew a dragon back to Westeros, Dorne could like, burn King’s Landing for funsies? But yeah, as you point out, what? They’d claim the throne and then when Dany and her two dragons show up be like “kept the seat warm for you! We cool? Marry me maybe?”

Quentyn is one of the three suitors of Dany in Dance, and this is something I mentioned in previous posts. He's the worst of her suitors because, while he's the only one who has interacted with her (so far) he doesn't get Dany. Many say that Doran failed on sending Quentyn to Dany, but the true is that Doran probably never expected her to be a conquering Queen but a fearful child with three small lizards. I think Quentyn was enough for that: "Oh, sweet Dany. I have ships and Dorne to your service!". ACOK Dany would have jumped into Quentyn's arms. But ACOK Dany died when she burnt the slavers in Astapor and crucified 163 of them in Dorne.

Also, Doran sees a very loyal and intelligent guy. He might not be appraising him with the same lens that say, Arianne does in her TWOW sample. As a woman, especially one in a position of power, she’s able to look at him through Dany’s eyes and see that he’s a bit unremarkable in the romance department. Maybe Doran did see this and chose instead to cling to his scrap of paper, just like we see his son do as well. But yeah, there’s no way Doran could have understand Dany’s demeanor, nor the political situation in Meeren.

It's like he has completely forgotten that he's Doran's son in this chapter, just when he actually needs to be his own father. Yes, take a few steps back is not a bad strategy: Gerris' advice this time is not wrong. In fact, in his situation, is the smartest one. He needs to stop and think what's the best for him and Dorne. Rushing foolishly into a quest to honour dead men is not. That's what Oberyn wanted to do: raise banners for VIserys and fight... well.. everybody to avenge his sister. And Doran stopped him because he was going to lose and die. And with him, many Dornishmen. He waited patiently for more than ten years and his chance arrived. This was Quentyn's moment for waiting and reconsider his options. Wait for Dany, or even go and find her.

It's a pity Quent decided not to listen this time. A Prince must also listen to others, and then decide. A Prince should also play well his cards. Stealing dragons with sellswords was never a good card.

No, it wasn’t at all. What’s interesting is that we still see Quentyn appraising risk in the same way we saw before, but it’s his “big picture” over-arching plan that’s shit:

He wore a brown wool traveler’s cloak, with silvery chain mail glimmering underneath. Did that betoken treachery or simple prudence? An old sellsword is a cautious sellsword.

He gets it, and he’s still doing his “study the cyvasse board” analytical thing. But he’s also rushing into a terrible plan when literally everyone else around him is telling him not to. So what gives?

I think this chapter is the first sign of his utter desperation, desperation completely fueled by Martell Guilt™. Some choice quotes:

Back the way I came, empty-handed. Three brave men dead, for what? It would be sweet to see the Greenblood again, to visit Sunspear and the Water Gardens and breathe the clean sweet mountain air of Yronwood in place of the hot, wet, filthy humors of Slaver’s Bay. His father would speak no word of rebuke, Quentyn knew, but the disappointment would be there in his eyes. His sister would be scornful, the Sand Snakes would mock him with smiles sharp as swords, and Lord Yronwood, his second father, who had sent his own son along to keep him safe ...
---
“All dead,” Quentyn agreed. “For what? To bring me here, so I might wed the dragon queen. A grand adventure, Cletus called it. Demon roads and stormy seas, and at the end of it the most beautiful woman in the world. A tale to tell our grandchildren. But Cletus will never father a child, unless he left a bastard in the belly of that tavern wench he liked. Will will never have his wedding. Their deaths should have some meaning.”
---
“I am a prince of Dorne,” said Quentyn. “I had a duty to my father and my people. There was a secret marriage pact.”

It’s guilt over his dead friends, as well as his absolutely rabid desire to please his father. Even though he thinks about Anders directly in this chapter (his second father), and he also thinks of Yronwood as his home (noting that it’d be nice to “visit” Sunspear and the Water Gardens, but that it’s the cool air of Yronwood he misses), his thoughts continually turn to Doran and what he owes him.

It’s at this point that I just have to ask: why in the fuck is Quentyn so loyal to Doran? Yes, there's Dornish national pride and all that, but this is really a new level. Does Quentyn blame himself for his parents' separation or something? Was the fact that at 9 Doran wrote to him telling him he'd rule off of Dorne the start of this guilt (feeling unworthy or something)? Or is it that he just so strongly identifies with and looks up to his father that he's desperate to please him?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Gerris is been extremely sensate this chapter, tbh. And while Gerris is full of wisdom, Quentyn is full with denial, foolish recklessness and blindness. Yes. Gerris has a point. They are dead. Dead people serves little purpose except being mourned. "Men's lives have meaning, not their deaths". Quentyn has now decided, sadly, to play the hero and grown some balls. Which is not actually wrong, but it's a wrong scenario and situation.

I was actually surprised by Gerris here. I wasn't expecting such common sense from the guy.

Quentyn surprises me as well. It's been complained that he never comes up with plans of his own. Well, here is his original plan. If it had worked, we would have said it was a brilliant stroke, but did anybody actually think it was a good idea with a chance of success, other than him?

Oh... Martell Guilt at its finest!

We learn, through inner dialogue, that one of the motivations for Quent is the fear that he will be laughed at by his sister and cousins. This seems to be another episode of his lack of self-confidence, his low self-esteem. He would rather face a dragon, which we know he is terrified of, than face the laughter of his sister/cousins. That's not quite right. The one attribute that Quentyn seemed to lack here was his father's patience. Doran doesn't seem to take many risks. He is criticized for it, but he hasn't lost anything either. This was an opportunity for Quentyn to be patient.

I think the majority of readers foresee that Dany is not going to be staying in Mereen or Essos. It would be a twist of enormity. I think most readers have decided that her enemies are about to suffer a serious reverse, and that the death of certain individuals is going to put a stomp on the "Sons of the Harpy". It's all going to come out. The problem won't be solved with a marriage and pacts. It will be solved Targaryen style. With "Fire and Blood". After the political problems in Mereen are solved, guess who becomes a viable suitor again?

Yet, we know that Daenarys is coming back from the Dothraki sea probably a changed woman. I don't think she's going to be looking for a third husband. She didn't really want a second one, and her experience with arranged marriages for politics seems to be poor. We know she is completely unattracted to Quentyn, and does not see any attributes in him worthy of being a consort. Even if he had lived, Quentyn would probably be completely rejected.

Nevertheless, being an alive spurned suitor is better than being a crispy corpse.

It's like he has completely forgotten that he's Doran's son in this chapter, just when he actually needs to be his own father. Yes, take a few steps back is not a bad strategy: Gerris' advice this time is not wrong. In fact, in his situation, is the smartest one. He needs to stop and think what's the best for him and Dorne. Rushing foolishly into a quest to honour dead men is not. That's what Oberyn wanted to do: raise banners for VIserys and fight... well.. everybody to avenge his sister. And Doran stopped him because he was going to lose and die. And with him, many Dornishmen. He waited patiently for more than ten years and his chance arrived. This was Quentyn's moment for waiting and reconsider his options. Wait for Dany, or even go and find her.

This sums it up perfectly. Great paragraph!

I understand Quentyn's desire to see that the deaths of his compatriots is not in vain. It is common among those who fight and die together. Yet Quentyn brings it to the point of survivor's guilt. He is apparently ready to be dead himself rather then have their deaths be meaningless. The problem is that Quentyn sees what has occured as a defeat, instead of looking at it as a semi-victory, because he is still alive. Quentyn had a whole life in front of him, and he gambled it all on a crazy plan for a single victory that was not even the primary goal. Quentyn misinterprets "Fire and Blood", just as he mis-reads almost everything.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

It’s at this point that I just have to ask: why in the fuck is Quentyn so loyal to Doran?

I suspect that is aspects of both the society they live in, and Quentyn's personality.

In the social aspect, Quentyn comes from a society, a feudalistic one, where duty to one's King, one's Lord, one's father, is the highest form of "good". Loyalty and duty/obedience is prized above all, because in their absence occurs a fundamental breakdown. So everyone is fed at birth, especially young boys, about the high value of these virtues. The people who seem to see past the value of these virtues are usually either somehow illuminated by a "road to Damascus" moment, ala Sandor Clegane, or come from outside the warrior class, where the social programming is not as insistent. People like Tyrion and Littlefinger may not see the value of loyalty and obedience quite as much because they were never a part of the elite fighting class that basically rules society.

Personality wise, I suspect that Quent is very similar to Ned Stark. He is what David Kiersey would call a "Guardian" personality. For these people, duty is highly valued because they take their sense of self worth from their place within society, serving it, and in fulfilling their obligations.

[Hrafntýr]

Yeah, Quentyn clinging to Dany’s “need not be the end of all your hopes” was just so indicative of his desperation. It’s like he blocked out the rest of the conversation that happened, including when he nearly shit himself looking at the dragons, demonstrating to us and Dany that he is no dragonrider. I can’t think he actually thinks this is his destiny. He was not fond of those dragons. But his good ol’ Martell Guilt™ requires him to stay, so by god he’s going to get something out of this. And hold on to whatever shred of hope he has.

Not to mention, Dany is the prize. When Doran talks about “Fire and Blood,” he’s talking about literally restoring the Targs to the throne, with the Martells positioned beside them. He’s talking about making the Lannisters pay and getting their enemies. I guess if Quentyn was somehow successful and flew a dragon back to Westeros, Dorne could like, burn King’s Landing for funsies? But yeah, as you point out, what? They’d claim the throne and then when Dany and her two dragons show up be like “kept the seat warm for you! We cool? Marry me maybe?”

<snip>

<snip>

I understand Quentyn's desire to see that the deaths of his compatriots is not in vain. It is common among those who fight and die together. Yet Quentyn brings it to the point of survivor's guilt. He is apparently ready to be dead himself rather then have their deaths be meaningless. The problem is that Quentyn sees what has occured as a defeat, instead of looking at it as a semi-victory, because he is still alive. Quentyn had a whole life in front of him, and he gambled it all on a crazy plan for a single victory that was not even the primary goal. Quentyn misinterprets "Fire and Blood", just as he mis-reads almost everything.

So, I want to examine this idea that Quentyn misinterprets "fire and blood," and the question of whether Dany herself is the prize. I guess I'm not so sure that Quentyn is wrong to follow the logic that he does. After his initial interview with Dany, it's quite clear that straightforward wooing is no longer an option. And on the night of Dany's pre-wedding feast, Quent takes in a lot of information that seems to cause him to re-vision his entire understanding of his mission. I think his visit with Dany to the pit is his point of entry into the Targaryen mythos.

Dany is the one who verbalizes that it is not her that has brought him to Meereen, that he has come for fire and blood. Now, we've heard Doran use these words, and I completely agree with Chebyshov's interpretation of what Doran means by those words. But Doran's Targaryens did not have dragons, there is a symbolic power associated with the Targaryens, but Doran has been playing a game in which magic isn't on the table. Maybe he shared his thoughts with Quentyn, maybe he didn't (Quent certainly gives us no insight into any conversations they might have had). But for Doran, it's all a straightforward political game, may the most cunning, long-sighted, strategically-brilliant player win. Yes, Quent, bring us back our heart's desire: an alliance with a now-powerful Targaryen, we'll show those Lannisters. [Hah, and Doran probably just gave him some cryptic fire and blood speech anyway, and sent him on his way.]

Quentyn is introduced by the Mother of Dragons to her children. Fire and blood is not a house motto, a three-headed dragon is not a sigil. And Dany reminded Quent that she is a dragon. Of course Dany herself plays "straightforward" non-magical politics, as her marriage to Hizdahr demonstrates. But we see how that goes: the dragon will out, and Drogon shows up in fire and blood, and Dany comes later to rethink he attempts to play politics in Meereen. I guess I think that Quentyn did, in fact, understand Dany's message to him in the pit, even if she herself didn't fully understand it at that time.

He didn't quite grasp it then, either (he's not exactly quick, our Quent, more a "still waters run deep" kind of guy). I think it took seeing what happened with Dany and Drogon in Daznak's pit for the pieces to fall into place for him. However, I do think that had he tamed a dragon through his own force of will (or blood, still don't know how that figures into things), he would have won Dany as well. Because she is a dragon. [i realize that this sounds hokey, nevertheless, I do think that the identification between Dany and dragon is a core reality of the novels, and that it's necessary to take account of the magical elements of her story. It's just hard to find language to do so.]

Now, was Quent the guy to enter the magical story? Maybe not, we're certainly told that he doesn't seem to be the Frog Prince. But I happen to think that he grasped the magical logic, and understood that if the "easy" route of gaining "fire and blood" by marrying Dany was closed to him, then he'd have to grasp the fire and blood himself.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You raise a good point here: Quent should have learned from his father. People mocked Doran for years for being to passive, and instead of acting rashly to please Dorne, the sandsnakes, etc, he took his time to make a plan that actually had a chance of succeeding.

I think the division of Feast and Dance has hurt a bit Quentyn's plot due to this. If we read both books together, we can have a very direct comparison and parallel between them. We first meet Doran being mocked by the Sand Snakes, and the people of Dorne growing desperate for revenge. Yet, he keeps his cool. And when we first meet Quentyn, he also keep it cool while everything is a mess around him. He has a mission and he sticks to it until the very end. We also see his chapters as those of Doran we can't see: full with regret, remorse and wishing revenge for what happened to his sister. But, outside, he doesn't show it. Quentyn's chapters complement Doran as Quentyn offers us what is in Doran's mind.

In the Boiled Leather tumblr, the suggestion for read F and D together has to read all Arianne before Quentyn. But the events are not that far apart from each other. While we're seeing Doran confronting Arianne, we know how he has had to wait for fifteen years to finally find the right chance to take back the throne from the Lannisters and put a Targaryen instead. And then, Quentyn is plotting something stupid and rushed. We know he's not going to make it because Doran is succeeding (kinda) by being cautious and silent. Quentyn is doing all the opposite.

BTW, I hate re-read threads. They're so good I feel intellectualy inferior all the time :(

I felt the same until I tried :D

Very excellent summary and analysis, JCRB, and quite amusing as well.

Gracias :)

Not to mention, Dany is the prize. When Doran talks about “Fire and Blood,” he’s talking about literally restoring the Targs to the throne, with the Martells positioned beside them. He’s talking about making the Lannisters pay and getting their enemies.

I think Doran's statement could be taken either way. He wants the Baratheons/Lannisters removed and put a Dragon instead, and he also wants the dragons (the animals) to do it because a dragon will show no mercy. Aegon conquered Westeros with dragons, after all. But the dragons didn't do it alone. They needed the Dragons, with capital D for Targaryen :P

I guess if Quentyn was somehow successful and flew a dragon back to Westeros, Dorne could like, burn King’s Landing for funsies? But yeah, as you point out, what? They’d claim the throne and then when Dany and her two dragons show up be like “kept the seat warm for you! We cool? Marry me maybe?”

Yes. Doran would be like "everybody calm down... there is a Targaryen... coming back. Someday. I... hope". And the Lords would be like "ah, ok" and the war had waited :lol:

Also, Doran sees a very loyal and intelligent guy. He might not be appraising him with the same lens that say, Arianne does in her TWOW sample. As a woman, especially one in a position of power, she’s able to look at him through Dany’s eyes and see that he’s a bit unremarkable in the romance department. Maybe Doran did see this and chose instead to cling to his scrap of paper, just like we see his son do as well. But yeah, there’s no way Doran could have understand Dany’s demeanor, nor the political situation in Meeren.

I think Doran could have understood Dany if he had been there to witness. Doran is the man who doesn't want to hurt his people if he can avoid them to be harmed. He's a good compassionate man. Dany is the same. Also, who knows if Mellario has told him about the conditions in Essos and Doran disapprove them (even if he didn't say it aloud). Dany proving him that she had to stay behind to protect the lives of those who needed her would make him understand she's a perfect Queen and THE QUEEN Westeros needs.

I was actually surprised by Gerris here. I wasn't expecting such common sense from the guy.

Well, I think the three of them fitted the "knights of summer" description until they finally meet Astapor. They finally realised they were dealing with a real war there, and they were strangers in a strange land. I suppose that Gerris realised he needed to be cautious and prudent.

Quentyn surprises me as well. It's been complained that he never comes up with plans of his own. Well, here is his original plan. If it had worked, we would have said it was a brilliant stroke, but did anybody actually think it was a good idea with a chance of success, other than him?

No. :lol:

We learn, through inner dialogue, that one of the motivations for Quent is the fear that he will be laughed at by his sister and cousins. This seems to be another episode of his lack of self-confidence, his low self-esteem. He would rather face a dragon, which we know he is terrified of, than face the laughter of his sister/cousins.

This reminded me of HP and the Goblet of Fire, book that is mostly about first discovering girls and love, as Harry has his first crush. He mentions he would rather face another dragon than actually invite one out to date. Of course, Harry here has 14 years old and not 18.

I have to wonder if Quentyn trying to steal a dragon also means the fact he actually rather returns to Dorne with a dragon instead of a woman because he's more terrified of marrying such woman that his sister and cousins will meet than the Dragon... in the level of scary things vaginas > dragons.

Yet, we know that Daenarys is coming back from the Dothraki sea probably a changed woman. I don't think she's going to be looking for a third husband. She didn't really want a second one, and her experience with arranged marriages for politics seems to be poor. We know she is completely unattracted to Quentyn, and does not see any attributes in him worthy of being a consort. Even if he had lived, Quentyn would probably be completely rejected.

Yes, but the difference here is that Dany doesn't marry due to attractiveness but out of need. If she solves the Meereneese knot and she's free to return to Westeros, she needs the Martell men to support her and her people. And to be fair, she doesn't even need to marry them. As long as she support the Martell cause, which is the same as hers, they would be fine.

This sums it up perfectly. Great paragraph!

:D

It’s guilt over his dead friends, as well as his absolutely rabid desire to please his father. Even though he thinks about Anders directly in this chapter (his second father), and he also thinks of Yronwood as his home (noting that it’d be nice to “visit” Sunspear and the Water Gardens, but that it’s the cool air of Yronwood he misses), his thoughts continually turn to Doran and what he owes him.

I understand Quentyn's desire to see that the deaths of his compatriots is not in vain. It is common among those who fight and die together. Yet Quentyn brings it to the point of survivor's guilt. He is apparently ready to be dead himself rather then have their deaths be meaningless. The problem is that Quentyn sees what has occured as a defeat, instead of looking at it as a semi-victory, because he is still alive. Quentyn had a whole life in front of him, and he gambled it all on a crazy plan for a single victory that was not even the primary goal. Quentyn misinterprets "Fire and Blood", just as he mis-reads almost everything.

Survival's guilt is one of the few after-effects we rarely see explored by readers in ASOIAF, and we do have few characters who suffer it. Quentyn, Jaime and JonCon are three of them.

What's the chapter following "The Spurned Suitor"? "The Griffin Reborn". And what happens In TGR and the whole arc of Jon? We see a different stance of what Doran has done. Jon hasn't waited 17 years because he wanted, but because he had to. And it served him right: it helped him to grow in the way indicated by my signature. We also see him dealing with denial, grief, remorse and a guilt that can match the Martell guilt tear by tear. First, "No, it wasn't me. I did everything I could" and then, when Toyne pointed out how he failed, "yes, it was my fault: they all died because I failed". While none of those conclusions are completely accurate, the fact that he had to live with it for all those years is what makes him realise what were his flaws and what he did right. And in TGR he FINALLY gets his revenge. Because he waited for the right time and when he had it all ready, he could allow for the plan to be changed: he stood away from the dragons and opted for a better option, one that was more probable to succeed, but just after he got an Aegon who was ready to fight, an army ready to obey and a realm what was in chaos and needed a leader. Imagine what would have happened if a 20 years old Jon had simply decided that he wanted to go to Westeros by his own and kill everybody or if he had returned with a five years old Aegon. We would have a dead Jon. We have now a Jon with a freaking army and winning.

That was Quentyn's main fault here. He wanted to ACT NOW. After you fail, and that's something we adults have learned through many years of failing, you need to retreat and regroup. And then, "attack" again. Retreat is not wrong. It's a valid acceptable manouvre. We have a saying here: "Más vale aquí corrió que aquí murió". Better saying he escaped here than he died here.

It’s at this point that I just have to ask: why in the fuck is Quentyn so loyal to Doran? Yes, there's Dornish national pride and all that, but this is really a new level. Does Quentyn blame himself for his parents' separation or something? Was the fact that at 9 Doran wrote to him telling him he'd rule off of Dorne the start of this guilt (feeling unworthy or something)? Or is it that he just so strongly identifies with and looks up to his father that he's desperate to please him?

I suspect that is aspects of both the society they live in, and Quentyn's personality.

In the social aspect, Quentyn comes from a society, a feudalistic one, where duty to one's King, one's Lord, one's father, is the highest form of "good". Loyalty and duty/obedience is prized above all, because in their absence occurs a fundamental breakdown. So everyone is fed at birth, especially young boys, about the high value of these virtues. The people who seem to see past the value of these virtues are usually either somehow illuminated by a "road to Damascus" moment, ala Sandor Clegane, or come from outside the warrior class, where the social programming is not as insistent. People like Tyrion and Littlefinger may not see the value of loyalty and obedience quite as much because they were never a part of the elite fighting class that basically rules society.

Personality wise, I suspect that Quent is very similar to Ned Stark. He is what David Kiersey would call a "Guardian" personality. For these people, duty is highly valued because they take their sense of self worth from their place within society, serving it, and in fulfilling their obligations.

I think it's more than that. I think that Quentyn and Arianne, and pretty much every other Martell and average Dornish has grown up believing Dorne is special because the Dragons never got them by conquest. First, Aegon agreed on peace after they got Rhaenys and a dragon killed. Then, to assure peace, the Targaryens HAD to marry a Dornish Princess and a targaryen was sent to marry a Dornish Prince. They were equals. And now, Aerys wanted Elia to be his heir's wife and future Queen. So, in the Martell's mind, Martell = Targaryen.

But here is when Q's and A's* personalities clash. Arianne is like Oberyn: "omg, we were offended! we have to do something!!!". Q and his dad won't rush into a plan head first, even though they also want the same revenge that A and O want. Q is loyal to Doran because Doran's cause is the cause of Dorne and that one cause establishes the Martell back on top as they should be.

How curious their first letters are Q and A. Quentyn questions and ponders like his father, while Arianne is more likely to act and answer immediately.

[TheStonedKnight]

HAHAHAHHAA