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Like it or not: These are the top 5 misunderstood characters


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I never saw anyone who can give legit information as to why Twin is evil. Everyone I discuss this with eventually come to the realization that he’s not. I even made other reconginze how Bad A** he actually is.

Happy to oblige. Here's one of my earlier posts from different thread:

I'll just copy and paste my post from one of previous threads about Tywin:

Tywin is a fine commander and very able administrator, sure, but I nonetheless find him quite a despicable human being and one of worst characters and villains in the series. This is a man to whom nothing is sacred - to whom everything: love, friendship, happines and very human lives are nothing more than means to a goal. And that ultimate goal is power of house Lannister - something for he is willing to sacrifice quite a lot: countless people getting killed, countless women getting raped, countless people traumatized, and even his own children's happiness. From the start he only viewed them as tools to use in order to increase his house's power - notice how furious he was when Jaime joined the Kingsguard and later sticked with that decision in ASOS (J: But I don't want to interhit Casterly Rock. T: Then you're not my son). Notice how quickly he gives up on Jaime as his son as soon as Jaime is captured. Notice how he treates Cersei as a mare to breed in ASOS.

What can you say about a guy who keeps people such as Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane at his side. Gregor may be mindless killing and raping brute, but Tywin is the one who decides how much killing and raping needs to be done in order to subdue his enemies, and thus loosens or shortens Gregor's leash. And he's not even doing his evil deeds "for the kingdom" or "for the better world", his only motive is benefit to house Lannister, in expense of rest of the world, if need be.

I view him as person who is dedicated to solving his problems most efficiently, whithout regards for anything else, including human life. To list some examples:

  • he wanted Tyrion to learn his lesson about whores - and so he ordered his wife gang-banged by his garrison. Tyrion hated his for it, and innocent Tysha was brutalized beyond measure, but (in Tywin's mind most important) - Tyrion learned his lesson
  • he wants to diminish value of Stark's hostage - so the most effective way of doing it was to give up on Jaime as his son
  • he wants to win the war as quickly as possible - and uses Gregor&co to murder, pillage and rape Riverlands villagers, thus weakening his enemies
  • he wants to make sure Lannisters are on the winning side after Bob's Rebellion - and he has no qualms about killing two children to achieve it (really Tywin, which one gave you the greater fight? The little girl or an infant? )
For an ultimate judgement of his character - just look at how his children react after his death - his daughter spends no time mourning and already thinks about surpassing him, his elder son is unsure about how to feel, while his younger son is his murderer. Great job raising them, Tywin.

And here is another one from Datepalm:

I ranted a bit about Tywin Lannister in the morality thread, and to my surprise, no one took me up on it. Perhaps some even thought I was kidding. Oh no, ladies and gentlemen, absoloutely not.

Tywin Lannister has a special mix, in both his public actions as a politician and a military commander, and, crucially, in his private life as Lord and father, of utter callousness for human life, a flagrant disregard for justice, duty, loyalty or honor, completel lack of any personal code, a twisted, oft indulged cruelty and no redeeming tragic background to excuse any of it. It is this combination, I contend, that pushes him to the very top - worse than Gregor, Theon, Bolton or Frey - of the huge of heap of terrible people in westeros.

I often see Tywin characterized as efficient, cold, measured, rational, unemotional, controlled, pragmatic. Whne discussing Shae turning up in his bed, its generally viewed as blatant reversal of characterization. It even has a vast conspiracy theory to explain it. In this thead, he was a clear majority to be the Hand.

Are you people reading the same books i'm reading!??!?!

Tywin is a rabid, petty lunatic, just waiting to go off. I'd rather have the bastard love child of Joffrey and Viserys as my Hand. Shae - a cheap, trashy whore who was his son's - is surprising, but completely in character. The man, to quote Stephen Fry, has the attitude to sex of the catholic church - like the anorexic or the morbidly obese to food.

He keeps constantly on hand people like Gregor and Vargo Hoat, is completely uncritical of their actions, and is always willing to use them. His tactics in war are incredibly dirty and underhanded. He will rape and pillage and torture as a tactic. Flying false banners. Pay off his enemies allies. Send assasins. He is a liar, a cheat and a traitor again and again. He will not blink to murder children.

As for being Hand...he gave the kingdom peace? The kind of peace that exploded into a rebellion that swept up half the realm at the drop of couple of roses. He was flagrantly disloyal, at the end, of course. But before that - he was utterly unreliable. We saw how much he cared about the kingdom, how willing he was to leave it in Aerys mad hands the moment it no longer served his pride and the aggrandizment of his family - not to mention broke his tyrannical iron grip over his son - he was outta there.

And then theres Tywin - the father. Jaime and Cercei - good god, just look at that duo. One of the only few good things we ever hear about Tywin was that he smiled for Cercei. Good job parenting there, considering she was murdering her friends as a preteen. Jaime waited a few years at least to start tossing children from heights.

And now Tysha. She was raped by an entire garrison, to teach his son a lesson. This isn't measured, rational, unemotional. Its bizzare. Cartoonish. over the top. A piece of pure, gleeful theater of torture and cruelty, topped off with the lies, the money, forcing Tyrion to go last. This is what he did to his son for daring to fall in love with someone he found inappropriate. Thats not how anyone with a shred of maturity, or a concience, would deal with the situation.

He never smiles. For fucks sake, can you get more petulantly, melodramtically, arrogantly emo than that?

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And Walder kept his oath, but Robb broke his… so in his own way, Walder has more honor than poor old dead Robb.

That's just ... so wrong.

Do you really consider the barbaric murder of hundreds of people and the desecration of corpses more "honorable" than breaking a freaking promise?
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Why Quentyn?

Because he is just a normal guy sent on a nearly-suicide mission, and he still tries to accomplish by any means, just because he doesn't want to dissapoint his father. I admire his courage and his "normality" (pretty sure I have just invented this word, english is not my first language).

I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her. I want to ride in tourneys, hawk and hunt, visitmy mother in Norvos, read some of those books my father sends me. I want Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry to be alive again.

These thoughts of him are so simple for the Prince of Dorne. He doesn't want power or glory. He is a good lad. But I am under the impression that for lot of the reader he is just a dumbass who wanted to tame a dragon.

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Everyone tends to view Lord Frey as conniving and treacherous, but why? He do what Jaime does, protect their family.



Catelyn or Walder made a proposal that he would marry one of Frey’s daughters. Also, Arya was to wed one of his sons, but as the story progressed, houses started believing that Arya was dead. Walder Frey did not hold any spite for hers supposed death because the Stark had no control over it.



Walder Frey allowed Robb to cross the bridge unharmed, so he kept his oath. And to all the people who say, “He’s dishonorable, Walder should’ve let Robb pass because his liege lord had already declared for him,” are simply ignorant. Any wise man would’ve tried to advance his family’s name and legacy by marrying one of their children to a high lord, such as, Tully, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Martell, Arryns, Florent or Tyrell. In one stroke, Walder had ensured that his family’s name would not be frown upon any longer.



When Robb was declared the King of The North at the Twins, Walder Frey was most likely elated upon hearing the news. Let’s us not forget, Walder Frey had no idea that Robb was going to become King of the North and Riverlands, and Walder may’ve wondered whether or not the Vale was going to proclaim him as King too because his aunt, Lysa, was the lord of the Vale. In an instant, Walder’s family had been raised to a respectable level. And to hear that Robb had married another girl after swearing an oath to him is beyond disrespectful, and Jeyne’s family was the lowest of the lords.



Walder Frey’s heir died while fighting in the war, and then his second heir perished too. Nevertheless, Walder still maintained support for Robb. Furthermore, the death of his sons must have been impactful for Lord Walder too because he does really care for his family, despite everyone saying that he only have self-interested. Then for Robb to married Jeyne, and to justify it by basically saying, “The King can do as he pleases,” is otherworldly disrespectful. I am sure Walder would have understood that Robb begot a bastard because he was emotionally weak from the loss of his brothers. Walder have bastards, he would have understood. But for Robb to marry her and still request his army is moronic. As Catelyn stated, “Walder do not want a lord, he want a king.”



When the book was drawing near to the RW, Walder still showed support in Robb’s cause. Even though Robb was losing the war of the Five Kings, but Robb showed stupidity by beheading Lord Karstark, which cost him a large portion of his army. And the North already had fewer men than the Reach and Westerlands. Therefore, Walder would have been silly to continue fighting for a man who spurned him and his family. Anyone who’s not a pushover would have done exactly what Walder did (though probably not as cruel; like chopping Robb’s head off and replacing it with his direwolf). Robb broke a vow; therefore, Walder had every right to break the laws of hospitality. By doing the RW, Walder ensured his family’s safety and became Lord Paramount of the Riverlands… Not bad for a Plan B!



People hold spite toward Lord Frey because of his history, but when Robb proclaimed that he was warring against the Iron Throne, Walder gave his support. And thus, this is why he needs more fans than “The King who Lost the North.” :cool4:


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Happy to oblige. Here's one of my earlier posts from different thread:

And here is another one from Datepalm:

I finally dropped out of another thread were posters were absolutely convinced that Tywin had nothing to do with the sack of KL: his soldiers just suddenly went berserk as soon they crossed the gate.

But who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool who argues with fools?

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snip

Yes, Walder is misunderstood, and I'll tell you why. The RW wasn't about getting eveb or just desserts or protection from the Lannisters. It was sucking up to Tywin. That, and sheer greed.

Yes, Robb the Dumb broke the marriage oath first. Fine, withdraw the Frey troops, close the Twins, bend the knee to Joffrey. That's it, easy. Let Robb to his own devices and the Lannisters won't bother you.

But no, the RW was the definition of overkill, and it was because Walder wanted Riverrun

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Robb broke a vow; therefore, Walder had every right to break the laws of hospitality. By doing the RW, Walder ensured his family’s safety and became Lord Paramount of the Riverlands… Not bad for a Plan B!

People hold spite toward Lord Frey because of his history, but when Robb proclaimed that he was warring against the Iron Throne, Walder gave his support. And thus, this is why he needs more fans than “The King who Lost the North.” :cool4:

:bs:

Sorry but having a marriage contract broken doesn't give you the right to murder thousands of people at dinner. Walder would have been perfectly within his rights to declare for Joffrey nothing more.

Second, Walder Frey isn't Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. And third he hardly ensured his family's safety since his heir was hanged as a direct result of the Red Wedding and the whole country hates him.

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Walder's not misunderstood. He's loyal until he's on the losing side.

I agree on Tywin. He does what's necessary to bring peace and secure his dynasty. Anyone would do what he did if they had the brains.

Baelish, I also agree. His motives are the same as everyone esles. He doesn't directly cause most conflicts (well, maybe a few), he just takes advantage. Which is what any logical person would do.

Pycelle knows that Tywin's the only one who can fix Westeros. He's sneaky, but has good intentions. Also, he's a Lannister fanboy, so he's good in my books.

Bring on the hate! You're all just butthurt Stark fanboys!

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Nope, those characters are understood fairly well. They're not really that mysterious. Your picks are nowhere near top ten. Or do you say "misunderstood" as a shortcut for "you should like them more"? Inigo Montoya has some words for you, then.



Patchface, on the other hand... WTF is he talking about, like, every time he opens his mouth? That, ser, is a truly misunderstood character.


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Nope, those characters are understood fairly well. They're not really that mysterious. Your picks are nowhere near top ten. Or do you say "misunderstood" as a shortcut for "you should like them more"? Inigo Montoya has some words for you, then.

Patchface, on the other hand... WTF is he talking about, like, every time he opens his mouth? That, ser, is a truly misunderstood character.

Patchface is some kind of prohpet or someone who can really see future I am sure of it.Guys words reflect what will happen in future always.

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I never saw anyone who can give legit information as to why Twin is evil. Everyone I discuss this with eventually come to the realization that hes not. I even made other reconginze how Bad A** he actually is.

I laughed, but you don't see how any of these characters are misunderstood?

Just take a "minor" crime he committed that is often forgotten even by his detractors: he executed Masha Heddle for owning a tavern where his son was captured. How is that not evil? Or when he imprisoned a man for life because he said he shits gold? Or when he whipped a prostitute because his son supposedly brought her to court? Or when Tysha was gang raped and he ordered his son to participate, or when he ordered a WoS for his father's mistress? All things done casually by Tywin that cannot be justified by pragmatism or whatever. How is this man not a scumbag of the worst kind?
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Walder Frey gets undue hate as well. Robb really did shit all over him. Simply switching sides would have looked puny. Frey needed to get his mojo back.

If only means of getting mojo was mass murder of thousands in a way that makes all future wars bloodier and more treasonous - then thanks, I'll pass.

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That's just ... so wrong.

Do you really consider the barbaric murder of hundreds of people and the desecration of corpses more "honorable" than breaking a freaking promise?

It's cause and effect.

I personally get annoyed with Walder because he's a bit of a non-committal coward but Robb did break his promise to Walder before Walder betrayed Robb.

One thing about Walder that most readers seem to overlook is that he seems in it for the expansion and longevity of the Frey line. He is the most virile character in the series by far, putting the strong seed of Robert to absolute shame. Walder has a lot of mouths to feed - in contemporary terms I'd compare him to a parent of a large family that uses underhanded tactics to get promoted.

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Agree with Theon and to a lesser extent Tywin. I do consider Tywin evil but am more a fan of him than not. My main gripe (and a lot of people's gripe) is how he treated Tyrion but he could have been a lot worse; he did him several favours too and didn't kill him. Indeed, I am far more upset at Tyrion's murder of Tywin than of Shae, unlike a lot of people.



I'm also a Petyr fan because he's entertaining but I couldn't sympathise with him, given his murder of Dontos, who did exactly as bid.



Walder was jilted but his reaction (the Red Wedding) was way out of proportion as it involved breaking guest right.



Pycelle isn't necessarily evil (though definitely not good) and I don't feel strongly about him one way or the other as he has less influence.


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