Would Rhaenyra's Velaryon children started a new royal dynasty?

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Something I've always wondered is, what if any of her children by Laenor had survived the dance and been crowned King, was would they have kept their father's surname and thus started a new royal dynasty or taken their mother's name?

[Lord Varys]

That depends. They got the Velaryon name when they were born, despite the fact that Rhaenyra was the designated heir, and Jace her heir. This suggests that Rhaenyra did not intend to change the names of her Velaryon sons into Targaryen. While she sits on the Iron Throne she does also not change the name of her then-heir, Joffrey Velaryon, into Targaryen.

Whether Jace or Joff would have kept the Velaryon name upon their ascension is an entirely different matter. But nothing really speaks against the Velaryon name. Due to Corlys Velaryon's wealth and fame the Velaryon name was by this time as prestigious as the Targaryen name, there would not have been a reason to change it, I think.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

OKay cool beans thanks very much.

So I suppose the Targaryen rule would have ended when Jace or Joff had come to the throne.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think they would have taken the Targaryen surname rather than be called Velaryon had they become kings. But we'll probably never know.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think they would have taken the Targaryen surname rather than be called Velaryon had they become kings. But we'll probably never know.

Agreed, since their claim comes from their mother's Targaryen lineage.

I do think a Dance would've been inevitable. Even if Aegon II decided to ignore his grandfather and mother's desire for him to reign, there's no guarantee that his siblings and children would have agreed to it...

[The silver dragon]

Agreed, since their claim comes from their mother's Targaryen lineage.

I do think a Dance would've been inevitable. Even if Aegon II decided to ignore his grandfather and mother's desire for him to reign, there's no guarantee that his siblings and children would have agreed to it...

one word. dynastic incest.

it end bloody horrible dynastic struggle's.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Looks like they tried just that after the dance with Aegon III and Jaehaera...

(Of course, Jaehaera couldn't live. Poor things. I feel badly for both.)

[The silver dragon]

Looks like they tried just that after the dance with Aegon III and Jaehaera...

(Of course, Jaehaera couldn't live. Poor things. I feel badly for both.)

i know Maelor getting ripped apart by a mob. and jaehaera impalement was some of the sickest scene's in asoiaf.

[Lion of the West]

Given the regards with the names I'm inclined to think that the Velaryon due to present examples in the series. The Baratheons and Tyrells claim their right to rule from the female inheritance from the Durrendons and Gardeners, but they both established new ruling Houses rather than take the name of their mother or other female relative.

I'm open to other ideas but that's how it looks to me.

[Lord Varys]

We should also keep in mind that the sons of Laenor Velaryon would have claims to the Iron Throne through both their parents. Through their mother, who was Viserys' chosen successor, and their father, who was of the older line of Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aemon, the eldest living son of the Old King.

Considering that there was doubt that Rhaenyra's sons were Laenor's sons, this fact alone should have been enough for Jace or Joff to stick to their given family name, to hammer home the fact they were true Velaryons.

[The Prince of Magpies]

There's also the possibility - that in this hypothetical Dance-less scenario - a daughter of Jace or Luke marries a son or grandson of the Viserys-Alicent line leading to another monarch with the last name Targaryen. It's possible that in this scenario, whereby Rhaenyra keeps the throne before it passes to her Velaryon children, that the acceptance of a female monarch means that the interchangeability of Velaryon and Targaryen is less problematic than it would be under the current system, which values male primogeniture so highly.

[Winterfell is Burning]

They would have been named Velaryon, which is yet another reason why war was inevitable with Viserys insisting in naming Rhaenyra.

[Lord Varys]

By this time, the Targaryen name was not the 'magical royal name'. This is confirmed by Daemon taking the name Blackfyre rather than Targaryen, and by Robert ascending the Iron Throne as a Baratheon rather than a Targaryen.

And the Velaryons were not minor house. They were a cadet branch of House Targaryen since before the Conquest, and the Targaryen line is as much descended from Velaryons as it is descended from Targaryens (both through Valaena and Alyssa Velaryon). If Aegon I and his sister-wives had not had any issue, the Iron Throne would most likely have passed to a Velaryon cousin, either Alyssa's father Aethon Velaryon, or that second Daemon Velaryon guy who was Master of Ships during the reign of Maegor (suggesting that he was already Lord of Driftmark and Master of Ships under Aenys).

There is no reason to rebel against a Velaryon king just because he is not named Targaryen. Not to mention that Alicent's children may not have had the chance to rebel against Rhaenyra's sons if she had ascended to the Iron Throne, as she most certainly would have taken steps to deal with her half-siblings - not necessarily via murder, but by forcing her brothers into the NW, KG, Faith, or Citadel.

[Annara Snow]

Whoever became King was probably going to change his name to "Targaryen".

They would have been named Velaryon, which is yet another reason why war was inevitable with Viserys insisting in naming Rhaenyra.

As Arya would say, that's stupid.

It also didn't even occur to the Greens to use it as an excuse... that's how stupid that would be as a reason, they didn't even deem it worthy of adding it to the list of BS excuses they were using to justify usurping Rhaenyr.

[Lord Varys]

Annara,

Viserys was only the fifth king of the Targaryen dynasty. And we know that the names of royal dynasties did change in the real world when the throne was handed down through the female line, thus I really don't think the a Velaryon king would even want to be called 'Targaryen'. It may be a different case with a different house, but the Velaryons were as magical as the Targaryens at the time of the Dance. They were dragonriders of Valyrian descent, very rich, prestigious, and influential.

[Annara Snow]

Annara,

Viserys was only the fifth king of the Targaryen dynasty. And we know that the names of royal dynasties did change in the real world when the throne was handed down through the female line, thus I really don't think the a Velaryon king would even want to be called 'Targaryen'. It may be a different case with a different house, but the Velaryons were as magical as the Targaryens at the time of the Dance. They were dragonriders of Valyrian descent, very rich, prestigious, and influential.

They weren't prestigious as Targaryens, who have been thought to be above laws, like gods, by many, even up till today when they're deposed. In the eyes of most of the people of Westeros, no one matched the Targs in prestige, in spite of the fact that they have been royal only for less than three centuries.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Some great responses here, cheers guys.

On that note on prestige, I do think the Velaryons were definitely the second most powerful house behind the Targaryens at this point in time.

[Lord Varys]

Exactly. And Corlys Velaryon definitely was considered a greater man than any or all the Targaryens of his day and age, perhaps only Jaehaerys and Alysanne excluded. His bier stood seven days and nights in front of the Iron Throne, and the whole Realm wept when he passed away. You don't do this for some nobody.

It is a stretch to limit the god-like specialness of the Targaryens to the Targaryens alone, as the Velaryons effectively were the Targaryens up until the Dance. Especially since Alyssa Velaryon took Robar Baratheon as second husband, and thus gave Targaryen-Velaryon blood to House Baratheon, resulting in the Aemon-Jocelyn match - which, in a way, expresses that Alyssa Velaryon's blood was considered to be as 'royal' as the blood of her grandchildren by Jaehaerys and Alysanne...

Nothing suggests that Corlys, Laena, and Laenor were revered less than, say, Viserys I, Daemon, Aemma, Rhaenyra, or Alicent's children.

And, again, both Daemon Blackfyre and Robert Baratheon stuck with their names when they declared themselves kings/ascended the Iron Throne. That suggests that they thought their birth names/chosen names suited them just fine.

We know that the Arryn, Lannister, Gardener, Durrandon, and Stark name eventually grew so prestigious that cadet branches through the female line - who most likely inherited the ancestral seats of their (distant) kin took the ancient name - may have decided to take that name. Although it has to be said that this is only sort of confirmed for the Stark daughter's son who was fathered by Bael the Bard, and Joffrey Lydden-Lannister, who was allowed to take the Lannister name. In the Reach, the Vale, and the Stormlands there may have always been Gardener, Arryn, or Durrandon cousins through the male line, so that it was not necessary to change a name (although I'd agree that this would be a very happy coincidence).

If the Targaryen name would have been considered to be as magical as you think it is, then Laenor would have taken the Targaryen name when he married Rhaenyra, and/or their sons would have been Targaryens since birth, receiving the Targaryen name either from their mother, Rhaenyra, or by royal decree from Viserys I. That this did not happen suggests that nothing was really wrong with the 'royalty' of the Velaryon name.

[Aemond's Eye]

We should also keep in mind that the sons of Laenor Velaryon would have claims to the Iron Throne through both their parents. Through their mother, who was Viserys' chosen successor, and their father, who was of the older line of Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aemon, the eldest living son of the Old King.

Considering that there was doubt that Rhaenyra's sons were Laenor's sons, this fact alone should have been enough for Jace or Joff to stick to their given family name, to hammer home the fact they were true Velaryons.

Not just Leanor's sons - Daemon's sons too. Jace would have married one of Daemon's daughters, but the other would have married another of Laenor's sons, and his half-brothers were also Targaryens by way of Daemon. Really, there'd have been a lot of claimants from Rhaenyra/Laenor/Daemon/Laena alone. That's without even considering the Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron or their issue.

[Annara Snow]

Nothing suggests that Corlys, Laena, and Laenor were revered less than, say, Viserys I, Daemon, Aemma, Rhaenyra, or Alicent's children.

Nothing suggests that they ever had this kind of prestige in the minds of the Westerosi population that the Targaryens had and have even now. Multiple characters who are members of Great Houses themselves talk of Targaryens - not of Targaryens and Velaryons - as people who were considered above the law, so even things like incest between siblings, not allowed to anyone else, was tolerated. ("That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens." Even though the Lannisters were kings of the Rock long before the Targaryens were anything but one of the many families from the Freehold of Valyria, who nobody in Westeros had probably even heard of.) And if the Targs didn't have that kind of prestige back in the day before and during the Dance, when exactly did they get it? After they lost their dragons?

And, again, both Daemon Blackfyre and Robert Baratheon stuck with their names when they declared themselves kings/ascended the Iron Throne. That suggests that they thought their birth names/chosen names suited them just fine.

Those are really, really bad examples. Robert hated the Targaryens, had lead a civil war against them and was trying to kill off the rest of those who carried that name and to replace their dynasty with his own. Needless to say, he didn't exactly take pride in his Targaryen blood, even though he had no problem using it to justify his ascension to the throne, nor did he identify as a Targaryen.

Daemon Blackfyre was a Targaryen on both mother's and father's side, but he wanted to differentiate himself from Daeron, who he was rebelling against, so he took the name of... the traditional Targaryen sword given to him by his father, which was one of the things he was using to justify his claim to the throne. And his sigil was - the Targaryen sigil with colors reversed. Basically it was both reaffirming his Targness and the ways how he was different.