OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 It's more than just infatuation, Snape lives the 17 years of his life after Lily's death in service to her memory. I think, yes, he's otherwise a dick and would have remained a violent bigot. But the point of this is that even the most ugly and unthinking hatred is undone by love, as awful as Snape is in most ways he has this one redeeming quality in his capacity for love. Vulgarizing it as obsessive or stalkerish seriously undercuts the series' message, so I can see why Rowling insists it was love, and I agree with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OAR,If Snape "loved" Lily why did he join with people who wanted her dead for being a "mudblood". That level of anger and resentment doesn't strike me as "real" love. It sounds like abusive men who claim their abuse happens because they "love" their victims so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OAR,If Snape "loved" Lily why did he join with people who wanted her dead for being a "mudblood". That level of anger and resentment doesn't strike me as "real" love. It sounds like abusive men who claim their abuse happens because they "love" their victims so much. Because after a rotten childhood he found a place of belonging with the wizard Nazis in Slytherin, and with them indulges in unthinking hatred of an "otherized" group as others, not as particular people (which ends up being Snape's breaking point). Characterizing it as a reaction to his falling out with Lily is just incorrect, given that we know he was befriending the wizard Nazis while still friends with her (she criticizes him for this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OAR,I can only agree that Snape believed he loved Lily. I think Snape had a very skewed idea of what "love" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OAR,I can only agree that Snape believed he loved Lily. I think Snape had a very skewed idea of what "love" is.I think his patronus —if you accept that Patronuses (patroni?) are the projection of deep, subconscious feelings— demonstrate that his love was pure?There are a lot of contradictory messages about Snape in the books. A lot of things support the "unhealthy obsession" theory, while a few support the "genuine true love" side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Roose,Ahhhh... the magical projection of "love". I get that. But as you point out it doesn't really gel with his other behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 WRT "unhealthy obsession," all I can think of is his jealousy towards James. This, while not strictly ideal, is pretty normal and doesn't manifest in any seriously disturbing behavior. Beyond that I'm not sure what else there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OAR,He abused her son because he existed and wasn't his son. That's pretty unhealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I disagree, he abused her son because he was an asshole and a terrible teacher. He abused lots of students, he was reviled by every non-Slytherin. There is also some residual hatred for James, who Snape (and everyone else) sees in Harry, but I don't see this as an expression of an obsession with Lily. His animosity towards James is understandable without considering Lily. There are also plenty of specific instances of him protecting Harry (which is his raison detre after Lily's death), because he is Lily's son, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 What the heck ever happened to Spoilers around here? Jeez... some of us may eventually, possible, sorta could actually read these books... :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 WRT "unhealthy obsession," all I can think of is his jealousy towards James. This, while not strictly ideal, is pretty normal and doesn't manifest in any seriously disturbing behavior. Beyond that I'm not sure what else there is. Other than the fact that he was ready to sacrifice James and an infant Harry if that meant Lily was safe? Sure :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Other than the fact that he was ready to sacrifice James and an infant Harry if that meant Lily was safe? Sure :P He doesn't care about them, but he doesn't really attempt to sacrifice them. He tries to bargain for Lily's life with Voldemort at first, but then goes further, he goes to Dumbledore. In the end he'd rather they all live than Lily die, I think he can hardly have expected when he went to Dumbledore that Lily would really have been the only one protected. In fact he scorns Voldemort's promise that Lily will live (and Snape can have her) to save her in a way that forecloses on what would be a deeply unhealthy desire on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Oh. Wow. This was a serious thread. I would have bet 100-1 against that after reading just the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Rowling has said that despite his courage etc., Snape was an unpleasant, petty man and an awful teacher. I agree. I read a theory that the reason Snape hated Neville so much is because he knew about the prophecy and that there werre 2 candidates: Harry and Neville, and that if LV had picked Nev, Lily would be alive. Which makes him seem even more... disturbed. Snape didn't need a specific reason to hate Neville. What we see in the books suffices. Neville is just a bumbling, completely incompetent potions student. By far the worst in his class. That alone would cause Snape to be annoyed and resentful of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Snape didn't need a specific reason to hate Neville. What we see in the books suffices. Neville is just a bumbling, completely incompetent potions student. By far the worst in his class. That alone would cause Snape to be annoyed and resentful of him.Still, as a teacher you're supposed to show a modicum of respect towards your students, even (and especially, I'd say) towards the more incompetent ones.Remember when he basically called Hermione ugly when Draco did that teeth spell and he said "I see no difference" or something to that effect?I realize you're supposed to hate him so the 180° in DH comes more as a shock, but Rowling really went out of her way to make him in as petty and toxic as she could and it just didn't make for an appealing character imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 ^ What you say is true. However, this is Severus Snape we're talking about, the meanest teacher in Hogwarts (except for Umbridge.) He would disagree with showing respect to any incompetent or otherwise "defective" student. I think part of it was Neville's incompetence was just so noticeable, as in his cauldron regularly bubbled over, or he'd make some potion turn an outrageously defective color (orange instead of green I think?) I know teachers as recently as 20-30 years ago were given much more agency to behave like Snape. Any Brits on the board can feel free to correct me, but I think in the UK and Europe teachers are allowed to be a bit more harsh and condescending toward students, without so much worry about the students hurt feelings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Must be nice. In the US if you look at a kid wrong you're out of a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Oh. Wow. This was a serious thread. I would have bet 100-1 against that after reading just the OP. I guess this is what happens when users of the "General"-subforum, who generally discuss who's the hottest chick or who has the longest dick in all Westeros, come down here to us. No offense :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 I dont pity Snape that much, even in his worst memory. Sure James and Sirius ganged up on him, but Snape gave as good as he got. After James hexed him, Snape picked up his wand and did a "Sectumsempra" on James' face. That is literally no better than if Snape had grabbed a bowie knife and slashed James' face with it. He wasn't an innocent victim, and what James and Sirius did wasn't nearly as cruel as if they had done it to Neville Longbottom. I just think Snape may have done the same to them if their backs were turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 LordArryn. I was in school 15+ years ago in the UK and I never thought Snape was totally evil from his behaviour in the classroom. I mean sure he was a right b*stard to Harry but I wouldn't have ever called it abuse. Teachers were rough on you in the UK, I mean when we got to like 13+ playing rugby if you were ever cheeky to a Games teacher you could be sure he was going to tag you hard when he got the chance... The fat kid who wouldn't get a shower would be told that if he didn't get in the shower and stop being scruffy then he would be thrown in. Thats just the way it was. Some of these Games teahcers also taught English and Science and Maths lol so a lot of it transferred. Then there were the oldboys who had been teaching a long time with tongues like razors who could strip you to the bone in a few sentences in a classful. Oh the times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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