Snape vs. Marauders?

[TrueMetis]

The Potter books were supposed to start of being for children and then age book by book as the readers did. They're a spy thriller and an extended allegory about British politics during the Irish "Troubles", littered with literary and cultural in-jokes most of which won't make any sense to non-Brits, and tied in with some kind of weird mutual game she's playing with Terry Pratchett.

Which means at best there meant for teenagers. Again complex is something they are not.

James is the person who might turn out to be an abuser - he shows all the signs, and the fact that Rowling seems to like him doesn't really help, because she herself married somebody who turned out to be a wife beater. Most people who love Snape love him because he's one of the least shitty of the characters, and the least likely to be an abuser. He's not a very kind man, no, but he's brave, loyal, protective, brilliant, loving, self-sacrificing, hard-working (if you work out the hours, he and McGonagall both do something like a 93-hour week, and the other heads of house nearly as much), he does his duty, he does his job even when he doesn't enjoy it, he's apparently never killed anyone before Dumbledore *even though* he was a paramilitary, he saves people from the Death Eaters when he can even if it endangers his position as spy, when he does something seriously wrong he dedicates himself to putting it right - these are all far more important than the fact that he has a nasty tongue, and besides which his nasty comments are usually quite witty, which is something else women value highly. And although he's verbally aggressive he seems to be weirdly gentle physically: we see this when he carefully carries Sirius, whom he hates and wants to see worse than dead, on a stretcher, because physically brutalising an unconscious prisoner the way Sirius did to him just isn't in his mental vocabulary, and when he responds to Harry calling him a coward by giving him the magical equivalent of a slap, as compared with Remus, who responded by throwing Harry into a wall.

What signs are these?

Least shitty (I would argue that this isn't true but still) isn't the same as not shitty.

And witty? “Tut, tut — fame clearly isn’t everything.” “Thought you wouldn’t open a book before coming, eh, Potter?” “Idiot boy!” “You — Potter — why didn’t you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he’d make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That’s another point you’ve lost for Gryffindor.” Yep height of wit right there.

Not being physical could be nothing more than because. as described, Snape would get his ass kicked in any fight. Anyway that he doesn't go around hitting people isn't exactly a sign of nobility.

And again, other people being shit does not excuse you being shit. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

The thing is, almost everything most people think they know about the Potter books is either derived from the films,. or from fanfiction, or from a first read-through, but you have to go back and re-read the original source material - often several times - before you realise what was really going on in many scenes. When you first read through the scene at the World Cup where Barty Crouch Snr dismisses Winky, for example, it looks as though he's being a brute and treating her as a despised slave, and most people go away with that impression and never re-visit it, especially as we see other examples where Crouch *is* a brute. Yet, if you pay attention to what we're told nearly a year later in book-time, you learn that Crouch had given Winky authority over his household almost as if she was his wife, and had let her nag and emotionally blackmail him into taking his son to the World Cup very much against his better judgement, and she had then wimped out and left him to deal alone with the situation she herself had insisted on, with disastrous consequences. And Rowling just *loves* to wrong-foot people with false impressions and with Harry's wrong assumptions about other people's motives: think what a great guy Harry thinks false!Moody is, right up to the point where he finds out that he's a deranged Death Eater who's there to offer him up as a blood sacrifice to Voldemort.

I don't really give a shit about Crouch, especially as Crouch was a shitty person. That he may have been nice to his house-elf doesn't change that. Hitler liked animals he was still a horrible human being.

On false!Moody, I don't really recall that Harry thinks he a great guy. In fact my impression was that Harry found him somewhat freaky, and was mostly just happy to have a relatively competent DADA teacher who wouldn't try and kill him. Poor Harry.

On a separate not, how the fuck wasn't Moody's brewing caught? He would have needed massive amounts of polyjuice potion and that shit takes time to brew. Maybe he's doing it in that trunk but how the hell isn't the amount of ingredients he's getting not noticed?

But it's from John that I know that not only Snape, Lockhart and Umbridge, to whom Rowling has owned up, are identifiably based on real people, but also to varying degrees Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, Sprout, Lily, Maxime, Remus and Moody and probably Lucius and Narcissa as well, That's aside from the fact that the house system and about 80% of the physical aspects of the school are based either on Wyedean, on Chepstow Castle or on Ampleforth College which was attended by Rowling's cousin (and by my dad). Less of these stories are fictional than you might think - even the special school train from King's Cross belongs to Ampleforth, although I believe Ampleforth's train stopped being a steam train some time around 1950.

Based on her impression of those people. Which in an early post you yourself suggest she wouldn't have had a clue about the mitigating factors.

Anyway, we're getting away from my original point, which was that Snape may have an abrasive and in some ways unpleasant teaching style, but you have to look at him in the context of what are seen as normal and acceptable teaching methods at Hogwarts. Snape does not physically attack a terrified, cowering child and try to change him into a pig just because he doesn't like the child's father, and then jeer openly at his fear and his weight problem (and then leave the family to fork out for expensive private medical treatment to remove a pig's tail from the boy, just because he's too much of a coward to admit to Dumbledore what he's done). He does not tell a student that an activity is optional and then punish him for opting not to do it. He does not (as an adult) use "Muggle" as a term of abuse. He does not outright torture experimental animals (although his treatment of Trevor is a bit callous) or feed his own favourite animals on piles of slaughtered pets. He does not stand by and watch a student being repeatedly slammed against a stone floor as he screams in pain, and care only about a point of magical propriety. He does not conceal information the lack of which could easily have led to a student's death, just to save face. He does not beat students until they are scarred for life, or whip them, or use a Blood-Quill on them. He does not send eleven-year-olds unsupervised into a midnight wood haunted by man-eating giant spiders, and then mock them for being frightened. He does not force children to expose their deepest fears to each other without first making sure that somebody's deepest fear isn't "my dad with an erection". He does not expose children to the risk of being bitten by a werewolf. He does not roll up his sleeves and prepare to execute a cowering, pleading prisoner in cold blood and by what is apparently going to be a very bloody method, in front of three children.

No, no I don't. All I have to do is repeat what I've said the entire time, that other people are shit, does not excuse you to be shit.

And he did exactly that last thing. Sirius couldn't defend himself, he didn't have a wand, he wanted to do it by Dementor's kiss which you yourself has acknowledged as cruel, and he intended to bring the Trio with him.

Instead, he sacrifices his own friendships in the staffroom in order to protect Harry during a rigged Quidditch match, sprints through the school in his nightshirt and probably bare feet because he thinks he heard somebody scream, charges ashen-faced through a closed door without first checking what sort of danger may be on the other side because he heard a girl's voice shout "Murder!", risks being sacked by Umbridge in order to prevent one of her minions from throttling Neville, and risks blowing his cover as a spy first to prevent a Death Eater from Cruciating Harry, and later to prevent one from shooting Remus (in the latter case, against Dumbledore's strict instructions not to draw any attention to himself). All of this makes him one of Hogwarts' best - or certainly safest to be around - teachers, although possibly not as good as Slughorn, Flitwick, Sprout and Hooch, and certainly not as good as Grubbly-Plank, who seems to be some sort of paragon.

Best of shit, can still be shit.

Regarding Draco and Ron's tones of voice in the enlarging teeth scene, I don't know what may be in the US edition, but in the UK edition Draco says "- look -", all in lowercase and regular face, as the final clause in a longer sentence and bracketed by dashes, all indicating that it's said in a fairly low-key tone. Ron says *"Look!"* as a stand-alone statement, with capitalisation, an exclamation mark and all in italics, indicating a rising, excited, emphatic tone, and then forces Hermione to display the damage which is in itself quite an emphatic thing to do, so there's no doubt that Rowling means Ron to be in quite an excited state (whether or not that is the reason for Snape's remark).

Okay? Even if I accept this as true in what way does this imply he trying to one up what happened to Goyle? That he's comparing them at all? His friends teeth are growing past her chin. It's okay to freak out a bit there.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

^ Hmm... interesting contrast between Snape and Lupin regarding being called "coward."

Perhaps Lupin's was more vicious because at the time, he really was guilty of cowardice. He was basically abandoning Tonks and his unborn baby, because he hated the idea of having ruined Tonks' life and wanted to run away from his "mistake." Harry was right, 100% in how he reacted to Lupin and Lupin's interest in joining the trio was (primarily) as a means of escaping from his greater responsibilities.

How does James look like a potential abuser? Is it when he says " ah, Evans... don't make me hex you!" He was half kidding I suspect, and only said it when it looked like Lily might pull out her wand to use on him. Im not sure Snape was as much of an innocent victim as he appeared either. He had friends then (mostly future Death Eaters) and was very much into the "Anti mud-blood" sentiment of Slytherin as well as being pro dark arts.

He and his DE buddies probably hexed the marauders and other students a few times as well.

I might like Snape better if I got the sense he really bought into Dumbledore and the Order's cause as opposed to just doing it to avenge Lily. Like if he really thought muggle borns were equal people and thought it truly would be horrible if Voldemort took power.

Also, what are the odds that James removed Snape's gray undies as he was suspended in front of the crowd? Sirius would not have tried to talk James out if, and probably would be more likely to remove (i.e rip/tear) them off than James. Unless a teacher or a Slytherin showed up... I'd have to guess those undies came off :ack: !

[DemiNymph]

Nice is just a very general word. Don't need to read so much into it or break it down to analyse it.

Seems like whitehound is fighting over definitions of abuse.

Did Snape physically abuse students? No.

Did he do some emotional harm to students? Yes.

Is this acceptable in the teaching context? Yes, it is realistic, we've all had teachers like him. It doesn't mean we like them thou. But it must be emphasised they are not breaking the law or any teaching ethics. I recognise that all teachers have bad days. Even the nice ones will misstep on bad days or with students that they don't get along with.

Did Snape pick on a few students? Yes. Not just Potter. He picks on the lousy students who are weak in his subject. Even Crabbe and Goyle have felt the sharp side of his tongue. But they possibly get off lighter since they are in his house.

[TrueMetis]

Nice is just a very general word. Don't need to read so much into it or break it down to analyse it.

Seems like whitehound is fighting over definitions of abuse.

Did Snape physically abuse students? No.

Did he do some emotional harm to students? Yes.

Is this acceptable in the teaching context? Yes, it is realistic, we've all had teachers like him. It doesn't mean we like them thou. But it must be emphasised they are not breaking the law or any teaching ethics. I recognise that all teachers have bad days. Even the nice ones will misstep on bad days or with students that they don't get along with.

Did Snape pick on a few students? Yes. Not just Potter. He picks on the lousy students who are weak in his subject. Even Crabbe and Goyle have felt the sharp side of his tongue. But they possibly get off lighter since they are in his house.

Not in any school I've been in.

Also he picks on Hermione too despite her being among the best, if not the best, student in the year.

[DemiNymph]

Not in any school I've been in.

Also he picks on Hermione too despite her being among the best, if not the best, student in the year.

Really? Did your school sack any teacher for being nasty to a student? So no sarcarstic remarks, no scolding is allowed? Or your teachers never bother to scold you guys? Are your teachers not allowed to have teachers' pets/favorites, and will they get a warning from the school if they pick on a few students?

I've always found that the american system seem very detached. Once the bell rings, the students run out of class without even greeting the teacher or needing permission to leave. It's a very different culture from the Brit + commonwealth ones. And of course you are judging from the perspective of your culture while JKR is writing from the perspective of hers.

Snape has done nothing bad enough to be sacked in my school. He won't even get a warning. We will dislike him if we're friends with Potter, we'll be gleeful if we dislike Potter. It's actually pretty realistic portrayal of human relations. I've definitely met teachers like him, on different scales. Luckily I managed to stay under the radar and their arrows of love/hate are pointed at other classmates.

[TrueMetis]

Really? Did your school sack any teacher for being nasty to a student? So no sarcarstic remarks, no scolding is allowed? Or your teachers never bother to scold you guys? Are your teachers not allowed to have teachers' pets/favorites, and will they get a warning from the school if they pick on a few students?

What Snape does is far beyond scolding or sarcasm.

I've always found that the american system seem very detached. Once the bell rings, the students run out of class without even greeting the teacher or needing permission to leave. It's a very different culture from the Brit + commonwealth ones. And of course you are judging from the perspective of your culture while JKR is writing from the perspective of hers.

I'm Canadian.

Snape has done nothing bad enough to be sacked in my school. He won't even get a warning. We will dislike him if we're friends with Potter, we'll be gleeful if we dislike Potter. It's actually pretty realistic portrayal of human relations. I've definitely met teachers like him, on different scales. Luckily I managed to stay under the radar and their arrows of love/hate are pointed at other classmates.

Again I haven't, no teacher in any school I went to got close to Snape.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

A bit OT, but I wonder how was Snape as head of Slytherin house?

It is tough imagining him in a role like McGonagall, almost a maternal one ( i.e going into the Slytherin common room demanding what the noise is all about etc.)

Did his students like him? Did he have a positive relationship with any the way Lupin and Dumbledore had with Harry?

[DemiNymph]

What Snape does is far beyond scolding or sarcasm.

I'm Canadian.

Again I haven't, no teacher in any school I went to got close to Snape.

That doesn't count then! All Canadians are nice! It's an entirely different culture. You wouldn't know what we have to put up with. So it's no wonder everything seems really quite harsh to you. I was smacked on the palm with a ruler until it broke. For talking too much.

[polishgenius]

and will they get a warning from the school if they pick on a few students?

Of course they'd get a warning from the school if they picked on students (and it was reported).

[HexMachina]

That doesn't count then! All Canadians are nice! It's an entirely different culture. You wouldn't know what we have to put up with. So it's no wonder everything seems really quite harsh to you. I was smacked on the palm with a ruler until it broke. For talking too much.

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be allowed in schools atm. Schools are also a lot stricter with teachers constantly picking on one student now too. However, I'm always a bit hazy as to when HP is supposed to be set, as iirc it's not the years that they were actually released. It depends on the year it is supposed to be as to whether Snape's behaviour would be tolerated in a standard school I think.

I'll also add however, that I have a friend who went to a private school and the relationship between pupils and teachers was very different to I experienced in a public school. Things were a lot more lax there, more akin to my sixth form, and they weren't even a boarding school, so I can see why it might be different

[TrueMetis]

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be allowed in schools atm. Schools are also a lot stricter with teachers constantly picking on one student now too. However, I'm always a bit hazy as to when HP is supposed to be set, as iirc it's not the years that they were actually released. It depends on the year it is supposed to be as to whether Snape's behaviour would be tolerated in a standard school I think.

I'll also add however, that I have a friend who went to a private school and the relationship between pupils and teachers was very different to I experienced in a public school. Things were a lot more lax there, more akin to my sixth form, and they weren't even a boarding school, so I can see why it might be different

HP starts in 1991. Harry was born in 1980.

[Which Tyler]

HP starts in 1991. Harry was born in 1980.

And the era of British scholing represented is much closer to Rowling's time at school (born 1965); rather than necesarily Harry's contemporaries in the muggle world.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

And the era of British scholing represented is much closer to Rowling's time at school (born 1965); rather than necesarily Harry's contemporaries in the muggle world.

yeah but Snape would still not be allowed to teach for long at any Muggle school.

I was born in 1977 and went to a UK school..

Snapes classroom antics are like a charature of a bad teacher from my time at school, not an acruate reflection on a bad teacher. To be honest he sounds much more like some of he teachers my parents had. (they where born in 50/51 respectively)

[DemiNymph]

Looks like my culture is more prehistoric. Snape is very normal to me. There will be a teacher like him whom I'd dislike a lot, but only 1 or 2 teachers like him in the whole school with say 30 teachers. There are some who are more insidious. They won't out right scold you but they'll go behind your back and give you a bad report or gossip about you with other teachers. They do this to avoid the bad rep. I'll rather deal with a more forthright person like Snape, ableit less abusive and unpleasent please.

[Which Tyler]

yeah but Snape would still not be allowed to teach for long at any Muggle school.

I was born in 1977 and went to a UK school..

Snapes classroom antics are like a charature of a bad teacher from my time at school, not an acruate reflection on a bad teacher. To be honest he sounds much more like some of he teachers my parents had. (they where born in 50/51 respectively)

Lucky you with your schooling.

I was born 1976 and went through (Private - yes, we had "house" "house points" and interhouse sports cups etc; and yes, detention was an hour's work with the groundsman/janitor) UK schooling and met a couple* of teachers similar to Snape - albeit he's a bit of a characature of them, with some exaccerbation of their faults - though probably not an exaccarbation as far as my 12 year-old self was concerned (I'd also say that looking back with adult eyes, they were nowhere near so bad, and amongst the teachers I remember most fondly).

Those teachers were the old-school type, and a rapidly declining breed however, and I absolutely agree that they would find it hard to keep a job in education now; in the 80s? yeah, they did; another decade earlier? absolutely.

Remember, corporal punishment was banned from (state) schools just a year or two before you and I were Harry's age; and still legal in the private sector for longer (though frowned upon - my school allowed it, but only with parental permission - given in writing at the beginning of each term - and banned it when I moved from Prep to 2ry school 1989).

Question - could you see Snape in the role of the teacher in Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (1979)? "No dark sarcasm in the classroom - Hey! Teachers! leave those kids alone" The architype existed, even if we lived in changing times, and you were lucky(?) enough to miss them.

* ETA 3 - 2 at prep school, 1 at secondary

[Pebble thats Stubby]

In 79 I had not started shcool, not even Nursary let alone seconday.

So I may be wrong but I could not see a Snape type working with infants or juiniors in '79. I admit it may have been possible for Seconday students to encounter a Snape type, but I would say it would have been unlikly unless toned down a bit.

[Which Tyler]

Not sure why you're picking up on the 1979 bit (I assume I'm not making my point well?) - though it's an absolutly fair one to pick - JKR would have been 14 in that year, so pretty much half way through secondary school. Of course, Hogwarts isn't an infants/junior school; so reference to teachers there isn't being made by anyone.

My point on '79 is merely a pop-culture reference to a teaching architype/stereotype that was very much mainstream at the time that Rowling experienced schooling. That architype pretty much defined schooling of the era; to say that such teachers wouldn't have existed, or wouldn't have remained employable for long is simply wrong.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I think we are arguing 2 different points.

HP is set at a time much later than JK went to school.

the time when HP went to school snape like teachers would not have been tollerated in the Muggle world.

You asked me if I could see a snape like teacher being around a couple of years before I was born. I think I answered that. I do not believe that Snape just as described in the books would have been teaching even then. A Snape-light maybe.

Yes JK based Snape off a real teacher. I can't speak for her or know for sure, but I'm betting that she took some characteristics and exaggerated them a bit, and made them a bit more extreme. Thus turning a snapelight teacher into the snape we know.

I know my parents time in school was much more harsh than mine, and I'd say harsher than JK's time. They aslo happened to go to school about the same time as Pink Flyod would have. Snape would have fitted in perfectly at my parents school while they where there.

Look do you think the Dursley's parenting style as realistic or maybe exaggerated? to both Duddly and Harry? Maybe the same way Snape is exaggerated for a teacher in JK's time at school?

[HexMachina]

I think we are arguing 2 different points.

HP is set at a time much later than JK went to school.

the time when HP went to school snape like teachers would not have been tollerated in the Muggle world.

You asked me if I could see a snape like teacher being around a couple of years before I was born. I think I answered that. I do not believe that Snape just as described in the books would have been teaching even then. A Snape-light maybe.

Yes JK based Snape off a real teacher. I can't speak for her or know for sure, but I'm betting that she took some characteristics and exaggerated them a bit, and made them a bit more extreme. Thus turning a snapelight teacher into the snape we know.

I know my parents time in school was much more harsh than mine, and I'd say harsher than JK's time. They aslo happened to go to school about the same time as Pink Flyod would have. Snape would have fitted in perfectly at my parents school while they where there.

Look do you think the Dursley's parenting style as realistic or maybe exaggerated? to both Duddly and Harry? Maybe the same way Snape is exaggerated for a teacher in JK's time at school?

Agree completely, on both the Durselys and Snape. They seem to be inspired by actual behaviours, but exaggerated for the sake of the narrative. Though, the Durselys' treatment of Dudley does not seem overly exaggerated I have to say. I've known other kids who are spoiled by their parents and can seem to do no wrong at all in their parents eyes.

[Which Tyler]

Definitely at cross purposes.

Yes, HP is set in the 90s; I merely claimed that JKR was basing her idea of schooling around her own experiences - just like anyone in their mid 20s with no secondary school aged children would do. JKR would have no particular idea what schooling would be like in the 90s, especially as they hadn't started when she started writing. Further than that, it is very well established in canon, and covered in great detail in this thread; that the magical community lags behind the muggle world when it comes to this stuff.

Given that you and I were children during a time of massive change in the way children were treated by society, by education and by parents; we (or I at least) were very well aware of these changes; and surely were aware that kids just a few years older than us suffered the cane, the slipper, belt or whatever was favoured at our schools. Maybe being a youngest child I was more aware of this stuff than you - but this stuff was certainly well known amongst my peers at school. Imagining teachers I knew as a dying breed being more likely to exist before they became a dying breed is not a trick question; and was not asking your experiences from before your birth.

I've never argued that Snape is anything but an exaggerated architype, as is McGonnagal, as is Dumbledore, as is pretty much everyone in this (and many, many other) set of books.