The Tully's claim on the Riverlands

[Armstark]

The Tullys of Riverrun were never kings, though the books of lineages will show any number of connections to the dynasties of the past. It may have been these old connections that started House Tully on its path to becoming Lords Paramount of the Trident under Aegon I.

So we learn that House Tully became Lords Paramount not because they were first of the riverlords to declare for Aegon the Conquerer but because of a claim to the kingdom of the Riverlands. But where did that claim originate?

Before the dragons came the Riverlands were ruled by House Hoare for three generations and before them by House Durrandon for 300 years. Before the Storm Kings it was House Teague and before them a myriad of other Houses from the Riverlands (Fisher, Justman, Bracken, Blackwood, Mudd).

We can rule out the Houses Bracken, Blackwood and Durrandon as the source of the Tully’s claim because these Houses still existed in the time of Aegon the Conquerer and their Lord’s claim thus would have been superior to the Tully’s claim (which only can originate from a woman married into House Tully).

From the remaining Houses the best bet for the source of the Tully’s claim is House Hoare as I will try to show here.

Our first hint:

Some even proposed that Lord Tully be granted dominion over the Iron Islands as well, though that did not come to pass.

What claim could House Tully possibly have on the Iron Islands if not one trough House Hoare?

The second hint:

New ties were forged, as when the new-made Lord Quenton Qoherys—once master-at-arms at Dragonstone, and by then lord of ruined Harrenhal and its sizable lands—took Lord Tully’s daughter to wife. (Though in later years this would prove a troublesome connection, alleviated only by the swift, sad end of House Qoherys).

If Lord Tully derived his claim on the Riverlands from a daughter of House Hoare you can see how the marriage of a Tully daughter to Lord Qoherys breeds trouble. Lord Qoherys can claim that his son is the rightful heir to the Riverlands because the claim is inherited through the female line.

Finally there are the weird actions of House Tully in the war with Harwyn ‘Hardhand’ Hoare:

A bold young knight named Samwell Rivers, a natural son of Tommen Tully, Lord of Riverrun, assembled a small host and met King Harwyn on the Tumblestone, but his lines shattered when the Hardhand charged. Hundreds drowned attempting to flee. Rivers himself was hacked in two, so that half his body might be delivered to each of his parents. Lord Tully abandoned Riverrun without a fight, fleeing with all his strength to join the host gathering at Raventree Hall under Lady Agnes Blackwood and her sons.

Why would Lord Tully abandon Riverrun? It is one of the most difficult to besiege castles in all of Westeros and the ironborn would stand almost no chance of conquering it. Just one passage earlier we are told that the most common tactic of the riverlords was to take shelter in their castles if the ironborn came.

Curiously after this excerpt no Tully is mentioned again until the end of the war but the defeat of Lady Agnes of Blackwood reeks of treachery even if it is not outright said:

But when Lady Agnes advanced upon the ironborn, her belligerent neighbor Lord Lothar Bracken fell upon her rear with all his strength and put her men to flight. Lady Agnes herself and two of her sons were captured and delivered to King Harwyn, who forced the mother to watch as he strangled her boys with his bare hands.

Nothing at all is said about the Tully host which should have been a part of the Lady Agnes’ host. Any Blackwood would not be surprised by an attack of the Brackens, their feud is legendary after all, but a betrayal by the Tullys might explain why Lady Agnes was defeated so swiftly and why she and her kin were all taken alive.

TL:DR: Lord Tully made common cause with Harwyn Hoare and betrayed the Blackwoods. The alliance was sealed by the marriage of Lord Tully or his son to a daughter of Harwyn Hoare.

Edit: formatting

[Ramsay's Penguins]

They have no claim, but I do think you could be on to something with this betrayal. Otherwise why just send a bastard, abandon your castle and just let Agnes be betrayed. Interesting!

[TheSovereignGrave]

I don't really think they were made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands because of any claim, but because they were the first to declare for Aegon. Using the supposed connections to justify is probably similar to how the Tyrells justify having been given the Reach by Aegon (that being the marriage of a Gardener into the Tyrell family in the past) when in actuality it was probably just because they let Aegon into Highgarden and swore fealty to him.

I think it was primarily the Riverlords who wanted Lord Tully to be given dominion over the Iron Isles, but not because of any blood connection. Simply because they'd been ruled and lorded over by the Ironborn for so long, and now they wanted to return the favour and have a River Lord rule and lord over the Iron Isles.

As for your Qoherys idea, I don't think that's how it works.

[Armstark]

I don't really think they were made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands because of any claim, but because they were the first to declare for Aegon. Using the supposed connections to justify is probably similar to how the Tyrells justify having been given the Reach by Aegon (that being the marriage of a Gardener into the Tyrell family in the past) when in actuality it was probably just because they let Aegon into Highgarden and swore fealty to him.

I think it was primarily the Riverlords who wanted Lord Tully to be given dominion over the Iron Isles, but not because of any blood connection. Simply because they'd been ruled and lorded over by the Ironborn for so long, and now they wanted to return the favour and have a River Lord rule and lord over the Iron Isles.

As for your Qoherys idea, I don't think that's how it works.

I think these 'justifications' for the rule over the other Lords are much more important than you make them out to be. Aegon I obiously took great care in choosing his Lord Paramounts and wherever possible he chose the old ruling family (Stark, Lannister, Arryn, later Martell) or one with a good claim if the old ruling family was eradicated (Baratheon marriage to the last Durrendon, Tyrells had a claim through the female Gardener line). There are only two exceptions (Tully and Greyjoy) and both are explained by my theory. In 300 years of Targaryen rule not one single Lord Paramount has changed hands and there was not one rebellion against their rule I can think of.

If Aegon would have chosen his Lord Paramounts arbitrarily like you suggest was the case with the Tyrells and Tullys why would the other Lords accept them as their rightful overlord? Why would proud Houses like the Brackens or Blackwoods accept to be ruled by the Tullys when the only justification for it is that there were first to declare for Aegon? The Tullys never even were Kings (unlike Bracken and Blackwood)!

In Westeros people put a great deal of importance into the right to rule and there are only two ways to gain that right: blood or conquest. This is the reason Lancel was married to gatehouse Amy or why House Frey hopes Roslin whelps a son with Tully blood soon.

How do you think the Qhoerys thing works?

[TheSovereignGrave]

I think these 'justifications' for the rule over the other Lords are much more important than you make them out to be. Aegon I obiously took great care in choosing his Lord Paramounts and wherever possible he chose the old ruling family (Stark, Lannister, Arryn, later Martell) or one with a good claim if the old ruling family was eradicated (Baratheon marriage to the last Durrendon, Tyrells had a claim through the female Gardener line). There are only two exceptions (Tully and Greyjoy) and both are explained by my theory. In 300 years of Targaryen rule not one single Lord Paramount has changed hands and there was not one rebellion against their rule I can think of.

If Aegon would have chosen his Lord Paramounts arbitrarily like you suggest was the case with the Tyrells and Tullys why would the other Lords accept them as their rightful overlord? Why would proud Houses like the Brackens or Blackwoods accept to be ruled by the Tullys when the only justification for it is that there were first to declare for Aegon? The Tullys never even were Kings (unlike Bracken and Blackwood)!

In Westeros people put a great deal of importance into the right to rule and there are only two ways to gain that right: blood or conquest. This is the reason Lancel was married to gatehouse Amy or why House Frey hopes Roslin whelps a son with Tully blood soon.

How do you think the Qhoerys thing works?

Actually the Greyjoys have a very good justification; Aegon gave the Ironborn the choice of who was to serve as their liege under him, and they chose the Greyjoys (probably since they claim descent from the Grey King and during the time of the Kingsmoot the only Houses that had more Kings were the Goodbrothers and Greyirons).

But then why give the Reach to the Tyrells? There were actual landed noble Houses with a closer connection to House Gardener (such as House Florent); House Tyrell were just the stewards of Highgarden.

If, hypothetically, the Tullys were made Lords Paramount of the Riverland because one of them married a Hoare woman Lord Qoherys couldn't claim his son as rightful ruler of the Riverlands just because he married a Tully woman. His claim would be through a woman and then another woman, which would make it a tenuous one at best. Not sure what Yandel means by it proving a troublesome connection; maybe the fact that the universally loathed Gargon Qoherys was the grandson of a Tully.

[The hairy bear]

Aegon the Conqueror acted in a clear pattern. He kept in power the ones who surrendered (Arryn, Stark, Lannister), and ended the lines of the ones who didn't (Durrandon, Hoare, and Gardener).

So we learn that House Tully became Lords Paramount not because they were first of the riverlords to declare for Aegon the Conquerer but because of a claim to the kingdom of the Riverlands. But where did that claim originate?

That's not what the quote says. House Tully was chosen because they were the first of the riverlords to declare for Aegon the Conqueror. Period. That has been established since AGOT. Other factors possibly contributed, such as the blood connections, the weakness of other posible claimants or Edmyn's charisma and trustworthiness, but at the end Aegon was rewarding their help in the conquest.

Re: Claim over the Ironborn

The reason why someone suggested to have the Tullys rule the Ironborn is obvious: for some centuries the Kingdom of the Riverlands and the Iron Isles had been ruled as one. And they wree sepparated after the conquest precisely because having the ironborn ruled by a foreigner would have been problematic. If the Tullys had Hoare blood, one ould have expected them to be granted the dominion over the Iron Islands too.

Re: Lord Qohaerys

The reason why the marriage of the Tully daughter with Lord Qohaerys is obvious too. That was a man who insisted on practicing the first law extensiely. One could see how Edwyn could not be happy with that both as the father of the bride and the overlord of the smallfolk.

Re: Betrayal

It's true that during the raids of the ironborn the riverlords used to retreat to their castles until they left. But Hardhand's attack wasn't a raid, it was a conquest. The best chance the Riverlords had was fighting together, not hiding in their castles until they fell one by one. Joining Lady Blackwood's host was clearly the best option they had.

[Armstark]

Aegon the Conqueror acted in a clear pattern. He kept in power the ones who surrendered (Arryn, Stark, Lannister), and ended the lines of the ones who didn't (Durrandon, Hoare, and Gardener).

Actually the lines of Durrandon and Gardener were not really ended, were they? Orys Baratheon married the last Durrandon and took their arms and words. House Tyrell had recent Gardener blood as well.

Aegon had indeed a clear pattern: he sought continuity in the ruling Houses so that their rule would be accepted.

Every Lord Paramount he appointed was the direct heir of the former ruling family (although the Florents would content that) except of course in the case of House Hoare if we follow conventional wisdom.

House Tully was chosen because they were the first of the riverlords to declare for Aegon the Conqueror. Period. That has been established since AGOT

Can you point me to the relevant quote in AGoT? I don't remember it.

Re: Betrayal

It's true that during the raids of the ironborn the riverlords used to retreat to their castles until they left. But Hardhand's attack wasn't a raid, it was a conquest. The best chance the Riverlords had was fighting together, not hiding in their castles until they fell one by one. Joining Lady Blackwood's host was clearly the best option they had.

Harwyn Hardhand did not conquer one single castle in the Riverlands. It does not matter whether it was a conquest or a raid - the best tactic was to sit him out in your castle. And that is exactly what most Riverlords did:

As the ironborn moved up and down the rivers, reaving and raiding as they pleased, the riverlords fell back before them or took shelter in their castles, unwilling to risk battle in the name of a king many of them reviled. Those who did take up arms were savagely punished

The outcome alone proves you wrong. Joining the Blackwood host was a failed strategy.

Re: Claim over the Ironborn

The reason why someone suggested to have the Tullys rule the Ironborn is obvious: for some centuries the Kingdom of the Riverlands and the Iron Isles had been ruled as one. And they wree sepparated after the conquest precisely because having the ironborn ruled by a foreigner would have been problematic. If the Tullys had Hoare blood, one ould have expected them to be granted the dominion over the Iron Islands too.

Here I largely agree with you. And people did indeed expect the Tullys to be granted dominion over the Iron Islands which my quote in the OP shows. But Aegon followed his strategy to appoint Lord Paramounts who would be accepted by their underlings which is why he departed from his usual tactic to appoint the former ruling family (or the ones with the best claim if the former ruling family was eradicated in the war).

Granting the Iron Islands to the Tully's would have bred trouble because Hoare blood or not they would still have been Riverlanders.

Re: Lord Qohaerys

The reason why the marriage of the Tully daughter with Lord Qohaerys is obvious too. That was a man who insisted on practicing the first law extensiely. One could see how Edwyn could not be happy with that both as the father of the bride and the overlord of the smallfolk.

This certainly is one valid interpretation but it has no evidence in the text. My interpretation is just as valid.

[Blow My Horn]

The Blackwoods and Brackens were also weakened at the time of the Conquest due to feuds and the Hoares IIRC.

As far as the Greyjoys, remember too that the Greyirons were extinct at this point so the Goodbrothers were the only family who claimed more kings among the Ironborn.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Re: Lord Qohaerys

The reason why the marriage of the Tully daughter with Lord Qohaerys is obvious too. That was a man who insisted on practicing the first law extensiely. One could see how Edwyn could not be happy with that both as the father of the bride and the overlord of the smallfolk.

Except that wasn't the case. Edwyn Tully married his daughter to Quenton Qoherys; his grandson Gargon was the one who practiced the First Law so extensively.

The Blackwoods and Brackens were also weakened at the time of the Conquest due to feuds and the Hoares IIRC.

As far as the Greyjoys, remember too that the Greyirons were extinct at this point so the Goodbrothers were the only family who claimed more kings among the Ironborn.

And the Goodbrothers don't claim descent from the Grey Kings, but rather his brother. So the Greyjoys had the most Kings out of any house descended from the Grey King.

This certainly is one valid interpretation but it has no evidence in the text. My interpretation is just as valid.

I don't see how marrying a woman who is a descendant of a woman of a King of the Riverlands would give the Qoherys children any claim to the Riverlands. The original claim would be pretty weak, and this supposed claim would be even weaker than that.

[Armstark]

The Blackwoods and Brackens were also weakened at the time of the Conquest due to feuds and the Hoares IIRC.

As far as the Greyjoys, remember too that the Greyirons were extinct at this point so the Goodbrothers were the only family who claimed more kings among the Ironborn.

But the Volmarks had the best claim (or did they...)

Qhorin Volmark, a minor lord on Harlaw, was the first man to claim the kingship. His grandmother had been a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand. On the basis of that tie, Volmark declared himself the rightful heir of “the black line.”

[TheSovereignGrave]

But the Volmarks had the best claim (or did they...)

Qhorin Volmark, a minor lord on Harlaw, was the first man to claim the kingship. His grandmother had been a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand. On the basis of that tie, Volmark declared himself the rightful heir of “the black line.”

Yes, but the Ironborn didn't choose him. Aegon let them choose who to rule them, and they chose Vickon Greyjoy.

[Armstark]

Yes, but the Ironborn didn't choose him. Aegon let them choose who to rule them, and they chose Vickon Greyjoy.

Yes, I know but my argument here is that Aegon could have gone with his general strategy of appointing the family with the best claim and name Qhorin Volmark as Lord Paramount. So why didn't he? Because Qhorin Volmark did not have the best claim - Lord Tully had. But he was a Riverlander so appointing him would have been problematic which is why he chose to let the ironborn choose their own leader.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Yes, I know but my argument here is that Aegon could have gone with his general strategy of appointing the family with the best claim and name Qhorin Volmark as Lord Paramount. So why didn't he? Because Qhorin Volmark did not have the best claim - Lord Tully had. But he was a Riverlander so appointing him would have been problematic which is why he chose to let the ironborn choose their own leader.

Um, no. It was because Qhorin Volmark declared himself King of the Iron Isles, and was killed by Aegon. Presumably he refused to bend the knee. And not to mention when Aegon landed there wasn't any single King; you had Qhorin who claimed it based on blood, you had Lodos who claimed it based on being crowned by the Drowned Priests, and there were tons of others.

The reason Aegon didn't just give the Lord Paramouncy to whoever was ruling the Iron Isles or whoever had the best claim was because there were a bunch of "Kings" all fighting over who exactly that person was.

[Maid So Fair]

I really like this. Tullys having a connection to Hoares seems pretty intriguing. Not sue if it was necessary, though, as Aegon doesn't seem like the type to be blinded by such things as a vague blood claim.

[Reposado]

the problem is the quote that you started from. 

 

"The Tullys of Riverrun were never kings, though the books of lineages will show any number of connections to the dynasties of the past. It may have been these old connections that started House Tully on its path to becoming Lords Paramount of the Trident under Aegon I."

 

is from the world of ice and fire. which is specifically written by an unreliable narrator that is sucking up to the current powers, essentially those that had a part of the rebellion.

 

yes, the tully's likely had ancestral connections to previous ruling houses. but it is likely that every noble family in the riverlands had the same. just as in the reach. look in thaqt same world in fire at the lannister tree over the past 100 years and how many families that interchanged with. now expand that tree back a few thousand years. the line that you start from is just a nicety to make the tullys seem less upjumped.

[Thuckey]

Took a risk by being the first to support, so is rewarded so accordingly. It's like making a huge bet and having it payoff. 

[Beorn Snow]

Tullys being part-ironborn was a long-time pet theory of mine, because they have the fish-sigil, as well as a burial rite related to water. The lord essentially burns and then drowns.

[Chinoiserie]

Tully's being decended form the Riverkings that rules before the Ironborn (is it house Mudd or some other house?) that does not exist anymore seems more likely to me than them Ironborn decendant.

But them declaring to Aegon first would be the real reason.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

On the possible Hoare, my impression is that by the time of the conquest the Hoares were reviled by their riverlander to say the least. So, I think that a blood relation between House Hoare and house Tully wouldn't help to consolidate the latter's claim of the Riverlands, far from it.

Also,given the importance of the rock wife in ironborn culture, I doubt ironborn nobblewomen were given as wives to foreigners -at least we have no records of such matches,while the opposite did happen-

To be fair, house Tully was a good choice on Aegon's part for many reasons. They were loyal to him, had enough past royal connections to be accepted by their vassals and no blood feud that we know of.

[The hairy bear]

On 15/1/2015 at 4:11 PM, Armstark said:

Can you point me to the relevant quote in AGoT? I don't remember it

In the appendixes: "The Tullys never reigned as kings, though they held rich lands and the great castle at Riverrun for a thousand years.  (...) A vain and bloody tyrant, Harren the Black was little loved by those he ruled, and many of the river lords deserted him to join Aegon's host. First among them was Edwyn Tully of Riverrun. When Harren and his line perished in the burning of Harrenhal, Aegon rewarded House Tully by raising Lord Edmyn to dominion over the lands of the Trident and requiring the over river lords to swear him fealty. "