Valyria afraid of westeros?

[Ozymandias13]

I remember reading somewhere in the world book that the valyrians did not go west into westeros because of a vision. The vision stated that their doom or end of the world would come from the west. What is this saying?? Did the valyrians know about the Others? Not impossible considering their civilization was founded not long after the long night and it was said that they had very detailed records. So i believe it's very likely that they knew and remembered the long night. Is this why they never went too far into Westeros? Before I read the book I presumed that it was a logistics think and that westeros did not have too much to offer. However, after reading this I'm starting to give this opinion second thoughts and maybe the valyrians stayed out of westeros because of what happened during the long night.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That is just speculation, without any proper source.

On the other hand, greenseers and skinchangers could have posed a very real threat to the dragonlords. One they didn't want to risk. There are some theories about Hardhome being a conflict between a Valyrian expedition and the skinchangers.

[Ozymandias13]

That is just speculation, without any proper source.

On the other hand, greenseers and skinchangers could have posed a very real threat to the dragonlords. One they didn't want to risk. There are some theories about Hardhome being a conflict between a Valyrian expedition and the skinchangers.

I don't think there is much more to my theory besides speculation, but I think the dragon lords would view the skinchangers as very serious threats. Whether they were or not remains to be seen, dragons are very magical creatures and I think there have only been a few skinchangers throughout history that would be able to accomplish the this feat. However, I don't think the dragonlords would want to take the chance to find out how dangerous the skinchangers were.

Another thing I want to add, is that dragons are confirmed to be weaker in colder weather and I believe Ice, especially ice magic of the others to be their weakness. It only makes sense given the duality between the dragons and others, ice and fire.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Westeros had *much and more* to offer the Valyrians, specifically the gold that the Valyrians were desperate for. I think you've merged two different mentions of why the Valyrians never came to Westeros, so it's helpful to separate them first:

(1) "the doom of Man would come from the lands beyond the narrow sea" or something like that, and

(2) the Valyrian prophecy that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them, which is obviously more specific to Valyrians.

These are two different prophecies that Yandel gives as reasons for the Valyrians not coming to Westeros. I think it's more likely that the first prophecy made them interested in Westeros (because the apocalypse would come from there) while the second prophecy kept them from doing anything (because the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy the Valyrians, specifically).

There is definitely something to the second reason, because the world book makes it very clear that:

(1) the Valyrians were absolutely desperate for gold among other precious things (to maintain the spells that kept the Fourteen Flames in check), and

(2) the whole world knew about the gold of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. So it's very odd that the dragonlords never swung by, and

(3) the Doom came shortly after the Lannisters bought Brightroar the Valyrian steel sword from the Valyrians (for which it is said they paid enough gold to raise an army). That's speculated to mean that whichever Valyrian family sold them Brightroar used the insane amount of gold to hire the Faceless Men to kill a rival family's fire mage, but that this destabilised the magic keeping the volcanos of Valyria at bay, and caused the Doom.

The Vals may have remembered the Others, but it's all speculation (as is most of the above) - although I agree that the dragons must have some weakness to the Others, otherwise it's all very one-sided.

There is also an older, pre-worldbook theory that connected Harrenhal with the Conquest. Basically, Harren the Black definitively breached the Pact between the First Men and the Children (or just pissed the Children off mightily) when he cut down the weirwoods around the God's Eye to use as beams and rafters for constructing Harrenhal. It's also said that many died constructing Harrenhal, so there's blood in its walls as well (weirwoods + blood = sacrifice). The theory was that the Children had somehow warded Westeros mainland against dragons for millennia, and that the ward was broken or the Children withdrew it, on the day that Harrenhall was completed. It's all conjecture, but building Harrenhall on the shore of the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces where the Pact was signed was a massive FU to whoever is still left on the Isle of Faces (children / green men).

It would be cool if all the events of the last 300 years, including the events of the books, is all about the children getting revenge for Harrenhal, or at least exacting some sort of reprisal/justice.

[Ozymandias13]

Westeros had *much and more* to offer the Valyrians, specifically the gold that the Valyrians were desperate for. I think you've merged two different mentions of why the Valyrians never came to Westeros, so it's helpful to separate them first:

(1) "the doom of Man would come from the lands beyond the narrow sea" or something like that, and

(2) the Valyrian prophecy that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them, which is obviously more specific to Valyrians.

These are two different prophecies that Yandel gives as reasons for the Valyrians not coming to Westeros. I think it's more likely that the first prophecy made them interested in Westeros (because the apocalypse would come from there) while the second prophecy kept them from doing anything (because the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy the Valyrians, specifically).

There is definitely something to the second reason, because the world book makes it very clear that:

(1) the Valyrians were absolutely desperate for gold among other precious things (to maintain the spells that kept the Fourteen Flames in check), and

(2) the whole world knew about the gold of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. So it's very odd that the dragonlords never swung by, and

(3) the Doom came shortly after the Lannisters bought Brightroar the Valyrian steel sword from the Valyrians (for which it is said they paid enough gold to raise an army). That's speculated to mean that whichever Valyrian family sold them Brightroar used the insane amount of gold to hire the Faceless Men to kill a rival family's fire mage, but that this destabilised the magic keeping the volcanos of Valyria at bay, and caused the Doom.

The Vals may have remembered the Others, but it's all speculation (as is most of the above) - although I agree that the dragons must have some weakness to the Others, otherwise it's all very one-sided.

There is also an older, pre-worldbook theory that connected Harrenhal with the Conquest. Basically, Harren the Black definitively breached the Pact between the First Men and the Children (or just pissed the Children off mightily) when he cut down the weirwoods around the God's Eye to use as beams and rafters for constructing Harrenhal. It's also said that many died constructing Harrenhal, so there's blood in its walls as well (weirwoods + blood = sacrifice). The theory was that the Children had somehow warded Westeros mainland against dragons for millennia, and that the ward was broken or the Children withdrew it, on the day that Harrenhall was completed. It's all conjecture, but building Harrenhall on the shore of the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces where the Pact was signed was a massive FU to whoever is still left on the Isle of Faces (children / green men).

It would be cool if all the events of the last 300 years, including the events of the books, is all about the children getting revenge for Harrenhal, or at least exacting some sort of reprisal/justice.

Thanks for mentioning that. I was posting from my phone and I didn't have my world book with me. You're right I did merge the two mentions. I find the doom of man coming from the west interesting and it may or may not be a reference to the Others.

It also occurred to me that the Lannister gold may also be refereeing the sacking of King's Landing as well.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

It also occurred to me that the Lannister gold may also be refereeing the sacking of King's Landing as well.

Yeah, Tywin's role in the downfall of the Targs, or Jaime's specifically (even his golden sword was likely gilded with gold from Casterly Rock); but that didn't really "end" Valyria - just brought about the end of the political rule of the descendants of the last dragonlords (who weren't themselves dragonlords). It could have a dual meaning, the literal cause of the Doom, and the figurative "gold of Casterly Rock" in the form of the Lannisters' role in the fall of the Targs.

[Aemond's Eye]

I took the supposed prophecy about the gold of Casterly Rock destroying them with a massive pinch of salt.

[The silver dragon]

I took the supposed prophecy about the gold of Casterly Rock destroying them with a massive pinch of salt.

yep. especially when you consider the fact the yandel, has so much lannister bias. that he has there banner so far up his ass. that when he yell's the whole world can hear him roar.

[Black Dragons]

I have read in World of ice and fire that Valyria planning to attack westeros before the doom happens (what if?) they did things would have been different.

[Black Dragons]

I took the supposed prophecy about the gold of Casterly Rock destroying them with a massive pinch of salt.

I agree with you this is crock

[LmL]

Lord Pepsi Cups, great comments as always. Very original and plausible idea that Harrenhall was a defilement of the Gods Eye pact. Martin uses this idea of defiling a pact several times, so it seems totally possible - we

Should look for corroborating evidence to see if there's any "there" there.

I'll just point out something else that happened 400 years ago, just before the Doom...

The Starks got their hands on "Ice," which (separate topic) I believe to be the original Lightbringer. Consider that as well.

One clarification: the point about "the doom of MAN coming from the lands beyond the narrow sea." This is given as a reason FOR Valyrians to have come to Battle Isle to build the Hightower fort - not to explain why they DIDNT come. We have several stories from the age of heroes about dragons slayers - Serwyn otMS, Davos Dragonslayer - as well as the idea that dragons roosted at the fort at some point. The fort is fused stone (un-ornamental style, though) and was built before the First Men arrived. This makes it definitively proto-Valyrian, to me. It seems that dragon fire is how you build the fused stone, but the Valyrians always did the fancy fancy. Five forts and Battle Isle are both utilitarian, unadorned fused stone... I think the proto-V's must have had dragons, to make the fused stone. I actually think the GOlden Empire of the Dawn of Yi Ti is the proto-V's, before the Bloodstone Emperor usurped the throne. They must have had dragons. And they came to Westeros - probably on the look out for the Doom of Man (much more serious than the Doom of Valyria), although we are given the possibilities that they may have been "slavers mayhaps seeking after Giants," or "seeking to trade with the CotF."

Giants for slaves? Proto-Vs trading with the CotF? Either is pretty huge.

And yes, I buy the argument that they were afraid of skin changers, who I do think can dragon Warg if they are strong enough. Might explain why the only potential wargs or CotF left on Essos are the Ifequevron, who may be totally gone, and the skin changers of Mossovy, which is beyond the 5 forts. Proto-V's maybe eradicated skin changers on Essos, and built the forts to keep them away from their dragons.

[LmL]

Ozymandais13, great post. It's good to speculate based on logical deduction; it can lead you to look for new ideas. I have been thinking about this very thing lately. There's something there.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Good stuff! A few points from me.

On the Harrenhal theory - yeah I like that a bit, but it's not mine, it's been around reddit for a while now.

Ice is only the most recent version of the Stark family sword (all called Ice, but it seems the actual sword was replaced). As for Lightbringer... come on, that was clearly Dawn. The name itself is a hint; the bearer of the sword (which is a special office for one deemed worthy) is called the Sword of the Morning; and it's the only sword that has a distinctly special look to it (it's called Valyrian steel, but it's pale as milkglass). Dawn was the Lightbringer the first time around, wielded by a Dayne. I reckon it won't be relevant to the story this time around though, it's just a nice bit of extra background plot. There will be a new Lightbringer or it won't be a sword at all.

I'm not sure if there were any Proto-Valyrians as such - and definitely that it wasn't them who travelled the world. It seems more likely that the Valyrians inherited the mantel of a different earlier people. It's mentioned that the dragons were brought to Valyria by the people from Asshai/Shadow, who (rather helpfully...) taught the Valyrians how to tame dragons, and then suspiciously disappeared. That's total BS.

My theory: with all the talk about cross-species breeding experiments in this part of the world, I reckon the Ashai'i came to Valyria and its fabled 14 volcanoes to do some dragon/human hybridisation. Only what they didn't realise is that their hybrids (our dragonlords) would be born with an affinity with dragons. The first Valyrian dragonlords destroyed their masters, and that's the birth of Valyria.

I reckon that the builders in the black stone aren't any of the people that were discussed in detail in the worldbook (so, not the Vals or the Yitish) - I reckon they're the mysterious long-gone original inhabitants of Asshai.

[LmL]

Good stuff! A few points from me.

On the Harrenhal theory - yeah I like that a bit, but it's not mine, it's been around reddit for a while now.

Ice is only the most recent version of the Stark family sword (all called Ice, but it seems the actual sword was replaced). As for Lightbringer... come on, that was clearly Dawn. The name itself is a hint; the bearer of the sword (which is a special office for one deemed worthy) is called the Sword of the Morning; and it's the only sword that has a distinctly special look to it (it's called Valyrian steel, but it's pale as milkglass). Dawn was the Lightbringer the first time around, wielded by a Dayne. I reckon it won't be relevant to the story this time around though, it's just a nice bit of extra background plot. There will be a new Lightbringer or it won't be a sword at all.

I'm not sure if there were any Proto-Valyrians as such - and definitely that it wasn't them who travelled the world. It seems more likely that the Valyrians inherited the mantel of a different earlier people. It's mentioned that the dragons were brought to Valyria by the people from Asshai/Shadow, who (rather helpfully...) taught the Valyrians how to tame dragons, and then suspiciously disappeared. That's total BS.

My theory: with all the talk about cross-species breeding experiments in this part of the world, I reckon the Ashai'i came to Valyria and its fabled 14 volcanoes to do some dragon/human hybridisation. Only what they didn't realise is that their hybrids (our dragonlords) would be born with an affinity with dragons. The first Valyrian dragonlords destroyed their masters, and that's the birth of Valyria.

I reckon that the builders in the black stone aren't any of the people that were discussed in detail in the worldbook (so, not the Vals or the Yitish) - I reckon they're the mysterious long-gone original inhabitants of Asshai.

Well you'll just have eagerly await my theory which disagrees with everything you just said... LOL. We'll see if I can change your mind. I think the answers are all there and verifiable in the big mystery wrapped in a enigma wrapped in a fake history book that is TWOIAF. That thing is a nine dimensional Rubik's cube - every single little dumb story in there is hiding puzzles and secrets.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, I like to start with the simple building blocks, and take it step by step from there.

And the one I start with is chronology.

It is pretty much undisputed that Ghis is a far older civilization than Valyria. In fact, Ghis has written records of the Long Night, something which even Ashaii does not have. Ashaii merely has oral tales thereof. So it is pretty clear that Ghis as a civililzation dates back to the Long Night, while Valyria does not. So this simple fact is enough to tell me that the black stone foundation of Oldtown is not of Valyrian origin, as it would have to date from the earliest First Men times in Westeros, and the Valyrians were still primitive shepherds back then.

We can accept that Valyria's history as a civilization that extended beyond its own small peninsula, is not more than 5000 years old.

So the people who bred dragons from wyrms and wyverns, and who may have been the original dragonmasters that created fused stone buildings, were not Valyrians. They were from Ashaii. But these guys are very old. Older than Ghis even. The reason they don't have written records dating back to the Long Night is not because they didn't have writing, but because this race were all wiped out during the Long Night. And the people who inhabit Ashaii today are not its original inhabitants. Hence, they don't have access to the written records of these people. Unlike the Ghiscari who still have a written history going back 8000 years or thereabouts.

So in short, the dragonmasters who visited Oldtown in the distant past were not Valyrians.They were Ashaii.

Valyria seemed to have a healthy fear of Westeros. Whether it was due to dragonwarging, I'm not sure.

[LmL]

Well, I like to start with the simple building blocks, and take it step by step from there.

And the one I start with is chronology.

It is pretty much undisputed that Ghis is a far older civilization than Valyria. In fact, Ghis has written records of the Long Night, something which even Ashaii does not have. Ashaii merely has oral tales thereof. So it is pretty clear that Ghis as a civililzation dates back to the Long Night, while Valyria does not. So this simple fact is enough to tell me that the black stone foundation of Oldtown is not of Valyrian origin, as it would have to date from the earliest First Men times in Westeros, and the Valyrians were still primitive shepherds back then.

We can accept that Valyria's history as a civilization that extended beyond its own small peninsula, is not more than 5000 years old.

So the people who bred dragons from wyrms and wyverns, and who may have been the original dragonmasters that created fused stone buildings, were not Valyrians. They were from Ashaii. But these guys are very old. Older than Ghis even. The reason they don't have written records dating back to the Long Night is not because they didn't have writing, but because this race were all wiped out during the Long Night. And the people who inhabit Ashaii today are not its original inhabitants. Hence, they don't have access to the written records of these people. Unlike the Ghiscari who still have a written history going back 8000 years or thereabouts.

So in short, the dragonmasters who visited Oldtown in the distant past were not Valyrians.They were Ashaii.

Valyria seemed to have a healthy fear of Westeros. Whether it was due to dragonwarging, I'm not sure.

Ah, so we actually agree, except that what you call the original Ashaii I call the Great empire of the Dawn, which was then corrupted by the Bloodstone Emperor, who caused and then reigned during the LN. The Great Empire represents the height of Chinese culture - do you think they had dragons? Ask yourself, does the fantasy version of ancient CHINA have dragons? Of course they do. They golden empire had the first dragons, and made the fused stone structures of 5 forts and Hightower fort. During the dozen years or so of the LN, the bloodstone emperor took the reigns of this Great Empire and corrupted everything about it, twisting fire magic into a corrupted form: shadow fire. The bloodstone. Which is also called heliotrope - it's a black stone capable of reflecting sunlight... Dark light... Black fire... Shadow fire... Blackfyre. That's what the BStone E was all about. The Great Empire occupied everything east of the bones, from the 5 forts to Asshai to Leng and the plains of the Jogos Nhai, and had outposts in other places, like battle isle. I'm guessing that the fused stone structure on Naath (did you catch that? They call it Valyrian, but it could easily be GEotD) is another one. The greasy stone spots are all associated with dark magic, human animal hybrids, necromancy, and ill effects on plants, animals and people. The fused stone places don't have that effect.

Anyway, that's my working hypothesis, and I am feeling good about my ability to prove it all quite conclusively... I've written a draft of my thesis and am in the process of proofing it and working out the kinks. I'll let you know when I drop it so you can try to tear it up. :)

Notice in the section about what happened to the Great empire after the LN ended - the earth was "a broken thing," and the tribes of men became suspicious if each other and dispersed... I think this is true, and the Great empire was the original dispersion point. Ghis, Sarnor, and Valyria are all children of the Great Empire, according to my theory. Check this out: the Great Empire of the Dawn rulers are the gemstone emperors. Now, from TWOIAF, concerning the fabulous civilization of Sarnor:

"Their gleaming cities were strewn across the grasslands like jewels across a green velvet mantle, shining beneath the light of sun and stars."

There's more corroboration than that, but you know, I don't want to give everything away just yet.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ah, so we actually agree, except that what you call the original Ashaii I call the Great empire of the Dawn, which was then corrupted by the Bloodstone Emperor, who caused and then reigned during the LN. The Great Empire represents the height of Chinese culture - do you think they had dragons? Ask yourself, does the fantasy version of ancient CHINA have dragons? Of course they do. They golden empire had the first dragons, and made the fused stone structures of 5 forts and Hightower fort. During the dozen years or so of the LN, the bloodstone emperor took the reigns of this Great Empire and corrupted everything about it, twisting fire magic into a corrupted form: shadow fire. The bloodstone. Which is also called heliotrope - it's a black stone capable of reflecting sunlight... Dark light... Black fire... Shadow fire... Blackfyre. That's what the BStone E was all about. The Great Empire occupied everything east of the bones, from the 5 forts to Asshai to Leng and the plains of the Jogos Nhai, and had outposts in other places, like battle isle. I'm guessing that the fused stone structure on Naath (did you catch that? They call it Valyrian, but it could easily be GEotD) is another one. The greasy stone spots are all associated with dark magic, human animal hybrids, necromancy, and ill effects on plants, animals and people. The fused stone places don't have that effect.

Anyway, that's my working hypothesis, and I am feeling good about my ability to prove it all quite conclusively... I've written a draft of my thesis and am in the process of proofing it and working out the kinks. I'll let you know when I drop it so you can try to tear it up. :)

Notice in the section about what happened to the Great empire after the LN ended - the earth was "a broken thing," and the tribes of men became suspicious if each other and dispersed... I think this is true, and the Great empire was the original dispersion point. Ghis, Sarnor, and Valyria are all children of the Great Empire, according to my theory. Check this out: the Great Empire of the Dawn rulers are the gemstone emperors. Now, from TWOIAF, concerning the fabulous civilization of Sarnor:

"Their gleaming cities were strewn across the grasslands like jewels across a green velvet mantle, shining beneath the light of sun and stars."

There's more corroboration than that, but you know, I don't want to give everything away just yet.

There is nothing like Ashaii in Yi Ti, though. Ashaii is simply something seperate and unique. I think the Great Empire of the Dawn was merely an eastern equivalent to Old Ghis.

Ashaii, though, was something different. A kind of Atlantis equivalent, that predated all other (human) civilizations, with magical feats that were godlike compared to that of later civilizations.

[LmL]

Yeah I just disagree. Atlantis was the Great Empire of the Dawn. Asshai came to power during the reign of the BS Emperor (according to my hypothesis, or course). There's nothing Atlantean about Asshai. It's a demonic place where plants and children cannot exists. That's not Atlantis. The person who built that city, out of the greasy black stone, bloodstone, was a bad dude with bad intent. Anyway. I'll just put a sock in it until I'm done with my post.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

It's pretty clear that Asshai suffered a calamity, and the fact that there are no children there is strongly indicative of the fact that the original inhabitants are long gone. The city has essentially become just a meeting point for practitioners of magic from all over the world.

We don't know what original Asshai was like, so we shouldn't conclude that the nightmarish-sounding Asshai of the present reflects what Asshai was like (compare what Valyria looks like today, a desolate smoking ruin, with how beautiful and shining it was at its peak).

What calamity could have befallen Asshai? Could their proto-Valyrian slaves have visited their masters' home with their newly acquired dragons to really cement their overthrow? This works into my theory above that the Ashai'i came to Valyria to take advantage of the 14 Flames; they enslaved the local shepherding folk; they messed around with human/dragon hybrids and ended up creating dragonlords that destroyed them. The fact that "dragons first came from the shadowlands" can be metaphorically interpreted: dragons were created by the Asshaii who came from there, but did not actually originate there themselves.

[Kaminsod]

I don't subscribe to the belief that old Valyria was afraid of exploring Westeros, i put it down more to disinterest and having to maintain and iron grip on their continental empire, i like to think that if the doom hadn't occured, Valyria might've begun it's efforts at colonizing Westeros in another couple centuries.