Mysterious Parchments - The Lineage of House Penrose

[Lord Varys]

Well, not exactly, as we know way too little about this house. But I'm trying to gather the whole knowledge and offer a solution to the mess TWoIaF has gotten us into.

First, I'll list the individual problems.

1. TMK gave us the first line that devolved in a rather interesting puzzle:

'At the crossing of the Mander, he [Fireball] cut down the sons of Lady Penrose one by one. They say he spared the life of the youngest one as a kindness to his mother.'

2. In TWoIaF we learned that Elaena Targaryen's second husband was Lord Ronnel Penrose, and had one son, Robin, from him, as well as three younger daughters (Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy).

3. We also learned in TWoIaF that Aerys I was married to his cousin Aelinor Penrose, who was not - by Ran's confirmation - a descendant of Elaena's and Ronnel's (which would have been difficult age-wise anyway, as Elaena was married to Ronnel by Daeron II, i.e. in or after 184 AC).

It is really difficult to reconcile those three accounts with each other. First I should say that I go with the presupposition that Aerys and Aelinor are cousins on the Targaryen rather than the Martell side. A marriage between the Martells and any Stormlord/Marcher house prior to the unification of Dorne and the Iron Throne seems to be unlikely (there is also little reason to assume that Daeron II and Mariah would arrange a marriage between Aerys and a (distant) Martell cousin from the Stormlands rather than pick a Martell/Dornish cousin of Mariah's).

I assume Aelinor and Aerys are third cousins through one of Rhaena's six daughters by Garmund Hightower.

The quote from TMK makes things really tricky. The Lady Penrose mentioned therein cannot be Elaena, as she had only one son who most likely was not old enough to fight in the First Blackfyre Rebellion anyway. She could be Lord Ronnel's mother as she would still be called 'Lady Penrose' if she was merely the Lady Dowager of Parchments after her lord husband's death, but this does not seem all that likely, as 'the youngest son' Fireball spared would then have to be Lord Ronnel himself who would have had all his four children by that time, and also not exactly a young man, considering that Princess Elaena was already 46 years old in 196 AC.

Aelinor Penrose Targaryen could be a younger sister of Lord Ronnel, but the Lady Penrose has to be another woman altogether, suggesting that by this time there were at least two (lordly) branches of House Penrose - who most likely both were descended from Rhaena Targaryen's daughter. The Lady Penrose from TMK could then also be the mother of Aelinor, she being married to some other Lord Penrose, a first cousin of Lord Ronnel. Or the Lady Penrose was herself a first cousin of Ronnel's, ruling over her own seat which may have been Parchments or not (depending on whether Lord Ronnel was Lord of Parchments or not).

Any comments on that?

[Wmarshal]

Lord Ronnel has to be the young son, Aelinor and Ronnel may have been double do to the lost the house faced. I think there is also the possibility that lady Penrose was a daughter of Rhaena. Why would Fireball give a fig about Lady Penrose? As to age, remember, these were Eleana last batch of kids, so her being old would explain how the next husband had no children.

[Lord Varys]

Ronnel already seems to be a Lord when he is married to Elaena in the 180s - before the Blackfyre Rebellion in which the elder Penroses die. Thus he cannot be their younger brother.

We don't know when Rhaena and Garmund got married, but I assume it was at one point in the 130s, perhaps as late as 140. Then one of Rhaena's younger daughters could be only slightly older or about the same age as Elaena, making it indeed possible that Aelinor is only a granddaughter of Rhaena rather than her great-granddaughter (the third generations in the main line only came from the fact that Viserys II was had children with Larra at a very early age).

But this does not change the fact that Ronnel would already have been pretty old in 196 AC - too old to be 'Lady Penroses youngest son'. He could be some years younger than Elaena, but he would still be in his thirties during the Rebellion, and thus it would be unlikely that Fireball would spare him.

[Mithras]

A possible solution is that Lady Penrose was styled similar to how Cat was styled Lady Stark many times. She might be a Penrose by marriage.

[Wmarshal]

Ronnel already seems to be a Lord when he is married to Elaena in the 180s - before the Blackfyre Rebellion in which the elder Penroses die. Thus he cannot be their younger brother.

We don't know when Rhaena and Garmund got married, but I assume it was at one point in the 130s, perhaps as late as 140. Then one of Rhaena's younger daughters could be only slightly older or about the same age as Elaena, making it indeed possible that Aelinor is only a granddaughter of Rhaena rather than her great-granddaughter (the third generations in the main line only came from the fact that Viserys II was had children with Larra at a very early age).

But this does not change the fact that Ronnel would already have been pretty old in 196 AC - too old to be 'Lady Penroses youngest son'. He could be some years younger than Elaena, but he would still be in his thirties during the Rebellion, and thus it would be unlikely that Fireball would spare him.

Where is it reported Ronnel's title during there wed? Or when he wedded Eleana?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

didn't I not already cover that possibility? Lady Penrose could not have been Ronnel's mother, which most likely would have been a Penrose-by-marriage. She could have been married to a younger brother/cousin of Ronnel, but that would mean that her sons would not have been all that important - Fireball could have killed them all, as they wouldn't continue the lordly/major branch of House Penrose anyway...

Wmarshal,

Ronnel is called a Lord during the sidebar on Baelor's sisters which also covers Elaena's three marriages. He is not referred to by named, but explicitly called 'a lord'. It is stated that Daeron II married Elaena to his Master of Coin (Ronnel Penrose). Considering that Elaena was by that time a widow for quite some time (Ossifer Plumm married her and died in 176 AC, I think), my best guess is that Daeron II arranged that marriage in 184/5, especially if this whole thing was part of Daeron's attempt to consolidate his power. Elaena was apparently a very important figure at Daeron's court, acting effectively as Mistress of Coin (people have suggested that she was Daeron's choice for the office, and Ronnel only appointed so that she could fill out the office), being a sort of 'special agent/emissary' along with Ser Michael Manwoody both before and after her marriage to him.

This would all suggest that the marriage occurred sooner rather than later. Especially since Ronnel most likely lived quite some time (into the 190s at least) as Elaena and Ser Michael did not have any children of their own, suggesting that Elaena no longer could have children when they finally married (although I'd not be surprised if - some of - Ronnel's children were actually Michael's, as he and Elaena must have met at court long before - or around the time - she was married to Ronnel).

[Wmarshal]

Mithras,

didn't I not already cover that possibility? Lady Penrose could not have been Ronnel's mother, which most likely would have been a Penrose-by-marriage. She could have been married to a younger brother/cousin of Ronnel, but that would mean that her sons would not have been all that important - Fireball could have killed them all, as they wouldn't continue the lordly/major branch of House Penrose anyway...

Wmarshal,

Ronnel is called a Lord during the sidebar on Baelor's sisters which also covers Elaena's three marriages. He is not referred to by named, but explicitly called 'a lord'. It is stated that Daeron II married Elaena to his Master of Coin (Ronnel Penrose). Considering that Elaena was by that time a widow for quite some time (Ossifer Plumm married her and died in 176 AC, I think), my best guess is that Daeron II arranged that marriage in 184/5, especially if this whole thing was part of Daeron's attempt to consolidate his power. Elaena was apparently a very important figure at Daeron's court, acting effectively as Mistress of Coin (people have suggested that she was Daeron's choice for the office, and Ronnel only appointed so that she could fill out the office), being a sort of 'special agent/emissary' along with Ser Michael Manwoody both before and after her marriage to him.

This would all suggest that the marriage occurred sooner rather than later. Especially since Ronnel most likely lived quite some time (into the 190s at least) as Elaena and Ser Michael did not have any children of their own, suggesting that Elaena no longer could have children when they finally married (although I'd not be surprised if - some of - Ronnel's children were actually Michael's, as he and Elaena must have met at court long before - or around the time - she was married to Ronnel).

edit sorry, but it doesn't mention when exactly they were wed during daeron's long reign. We need to remember, house Penrose lost much in the Blackfyre rebellion, a princess, no matter the age, is a good match for them. Daeron reign was quiet long post victory.

[Wmarshal]

And think about it, if Ronnel was lord during the rebellion, wouldn't lady Penrose be Eleana? The bore one son, not many.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Have you considered the possibility that perhaps that line in the TMK i think it is, is now no longer applicable?

After all GRRM could have changed his mind

[Mithras]

LV,

You already know my solution. I think Elaena should have never married the Penroses at all ;)

[Lord Varys]

Wmarshal,

I know it does not mention when Elaena and Ronnel were mentioned, but I think I made a good case that they would have to marry sooner rather than later. Elaena was born in 150 AC, which would make her, as I've already mentioned, 46 in 196 AC. If they married around that time - or even later - Elaena would not have given birth to four more children.

More importantly, TWoIaF insinuates that Elaena became influential and important early on in the reign of Daeron II, after she had been married to Ronnel.

The fact that Ronnel was a lord and Elaena cannot be the Lady Penrose is the whole problem.

Unless stuff is officially retconned I try to reconcile stuff rather than declaring it nonsense...

Mithras,

well, get over it. I wanted Baelon Targaryen to be either a (younger) brother of Rhaenys or a (grand)son of Jaehaerys from an entirely different line, to add more flavor and confusion to the whole. But we don't always get what we want.

On the generation stuff:

I think we should go with the Penrose-Hightower (Rhaena's daughter) match occurring around the time of Daeron's Conquest, brokered to stabilize the ties between the Reach and the Stormlords/Marcher Lords. I'd not be surprised if Jena Dondarrion was also descended from one of Rhaena's daughters, most likely before or during the war.

Baelor may have even married one of Rhaena's daughter into House Dayne following Daeron's betrothal to Mariah.

Those would all have been younger daughters, as I think Rhaena's elder daughters were married into major families of the Reach. I think the Hightowers reabsorbed one of Rhaena's daughters in their main line, and I'd not be surprised one bit if the Rowans also claimed one of the Targaryen-Hightowers - that could explain why Mathis Rowan is not happy with the Aegon thing. But the Redwynes or Tyrells are always suspects for a Hightower match, especially if the bride would also have Targaryen blood.

[Wmarshal]

Wmarshal,

I know it does not mention when Elaena and Ronnel were mentioned, but I think I made a good case that they would have to marry sooner rather than later. Elaena was born in 150 AC, which would make her, as I've already mentioned, 46 in 196 AC. If they married around that time - or even later - Elaena would not have given birth to four more children.

More importantly, TWoIaF insinuates that Elaena became influential and important early on in the reign of Daeron II, after she had been married to Ronnel.

The fact that Ronnel was a lord and Elaena cannot be the Lady Penrose is the whole problem.

Unless stuff is officially retconned I try to reconcile stuff rather than declaring it nonsense...

He doesn't really make a case that she was influential at the beginning of his reign, only that she swiftly did after marriage. Even if she is in her late forties,their is a possibility she could give birth.

I am using what I have, and it points to her being her boy.

[Lord Varys]

Well, okay, but we know she also married Ser Michael Mandwoody during Daeron's reign, so she has to have married Lord Ronnel sooner rather than later. Not sure either why you are think Elaena should have married Ronnel later. Your point seems to be that Ronnel was the Penrose boy Fireball spared, right? That makes very little sense in any possible scenario, as the 'youngest son' thing strongly suggests that this youngest son was still rather young (say, 14-18 or so, perhaps even younger, a squire) in 196 during the Rebellion, and would then shortly thereafter be appointed Master of Coin at such a young age, and married to a woman in his late forties?

She surely could have given birth in her forties, but four children? Not all that likely.

[Wmarshal]

Well, okay, but we know she also married Ser Michael Mandwoody during Daeron's reign, so she has to have married Lord Ronnel sooner rather than later. Not sure either why you are think Elaena should have married Ronnel later. Your point seems to be that Ronnel was the Penrose boy Fireball spared, right? That makes very little sense in any possible scenario, as the 'youngest son' thing strongly suggests that this youngest son was still rather young (say, 14-18 or so, perhaps even younger, a squire) in 196 during the Rebellion, and would then shortly thereafter be appointed Master of Coin at such a young age, and married to a woman in his late forties?

She surely could have given birth in her forties, but four children? Not all that likely.

Yes, seeing how it is not like he was actaully trusted in all these task, they were given to his wife. And again, it doesn't really work without it, be it where did Lady Penrose and her sons go? Eleana, no matter how old she was, was the only spare Targaryen lady out there.

Some women can, it is rare, but can happen. These kids were her last batch.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ronnel may just be lord due to his MoC position right? Like Varys.

Ran could also be wrong?

And youngest son spared would mean three sons probably, or more, so it can't be Ronnel and Elaenas children.

Spared youngest son is one son, and it would probably be worded as killing her "eldest son and sparing the younger".

[Winterfell is Burning]

Maybe the Lady Penrose is a sister or something that is married to another lord? She'd be known as Lady Penrose like Cersei is known as Lannister.

[Lord Varys]

Ramsay's Penguins,

could be. But the phrasing in TWoIaF is that Lord Ronnel was 'a good and noble lord'. If he had only been a knight, Yandel could have written 'knight' there, and as such he would also have had no need of a 'lord by courtesy' title, as many knights did actually serve on the council who were not, in addition, styled 'lord' (Harys Swyft, Tyland Lannister).

Ran was rather specific in regards Aelinor and Aerys degree of kinship. Before he revealed that they were not cousins through Elaena - which was the first idea everyone had - I was suggesting that they change the family tree and make Aelinor a daughter of Elaena's and Ronnel's.

But considering that George specified six daughters for Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, I imagine that he knows what happened to at least some of them, and I'd not be surprised if all (or at least some of) the brides of Daeron's sons be descended from some of those daughters (aside from Aelinor most likely Jena Dondarrion and possibly also Dyanna Dayne and Alys Arryn).

I've argued in favor of Jena's Targaryen blood elsewhere, as this would be the best explanation as to why Daeron II faced no strong opposition against his intention to marry his two elder sons to two relative minor houses from the Stormlands. Later Yandel states that the Egg-Betha match did only not cause opposition because Egg was at the very end of the line of succession - whereas Baelor was Prince of Dragonstone and Aerys second in line to the Iron Throne when their father betrothed/married them to a Dondarrion and Penrose, respectively.

This could work, in my opinion, if both Jena and Aelinor were among the closest female relatives House Targaryen had at that point. Considering that the Targaryen marriage policy greatly favored incest - and nothing suggests that Daeron II was necessarily opposed to that - it would make sense to assume that the Lords could not really oppose a match with the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and a Targaryen cousin through the female line. Although I'm pretty sure that Daeron II picked Jena and Aelinor for a reason - to strengthen his ties to Stormlords and the Marcher Lords - especially if there were other Targaryen cousins through the female line from nobler and more powerful houses he could have chosen...

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ramsay's Penguins,

could be. But the phrasing in TWoIaF is that Lord Ronnel was 'a good and noble lord'. If he had only been a knight, Yandel could have written 'knight' there, and as such he would also have had no need of a 'lord by courtesy' title, as many knights did actually serve on the council who were not, in addition, styled 'lord' (Harys Swyft, Tyland Lannister).

Ran was rather specific in regards Aelinor and Aerys degree of kinship. Before he revealed that they were not cousins through Elaena - which was the first idea everyone had - I was suggesting that they change the family tree and make Aelinor a daughter of Elaena's and Ronnel's.

But considering that George specified six daughters for Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, I imagine that he knows what happened to at least some of them, and I'd not be surprised if all (or at least some of) the brides of Daeron's sons be descended from some of those daughters (aside from Aelinor most likely Jena Dondarrion and possibly also Dyanna Dayne and Alys Arryn).

I've argued in favor of Jena's Targaryen blood elsewhere, as this would be the best explanation as to why Daeron II faced no strong opposition against his intention to marry his two elder sons to two relative minor houses from the Stormlands. Later Yandel states that the Egg-Betha match did only not cause opposition because Egg was at the very end of the line of succession - whereas Baelor was Prince of Dragonstone and Aerys second in line to the Iron Throne when their father betrothed/married them to a Dondarrion and Penrose, respectively.

This could work, in my opinion, if both Jena and Aelinor were among the closest female relatives House Targaryen had at that point. Considering that the Targaryen marriage policy greatly favored incest - and nothing suggests that Daeron II was necessarily opposed to that - it would make sense to assume that the Lords could not really oppose a match with the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and a Targaryen cousin through the female line. Although I'm pretty sure that Daeron II picked Jena and Aelinor for a reason - to strengthen his ties to Stormlords and the Marcher Lords - especially if there were other Targaryen cousins through the female line from nobler and more powerful houses he could have chosen...

While you're probably right, Yandel could just be making a mistake. He does that. House Penrose is a lordly house, so Harys as a Ser (being a landed knight) and Tyland (not being lord) makes sense for both of them, so maybe he was lord of Parchments and of Coin. It does seem likely.

If he was specific I suppose he knows, so yeah, probably not an error then :P

The thing with Jena is that I think Targ blood can be dismissed. It was political, to appease the Marcher lords for the Martell marriage. It could also be that those two houses were powerful at that time, so who could complain. These are minor houses compared to great lords, but they're on the next tier. Not Hightower level, but if Targs can marry houses that are vassals, these two wouldn't be a bad pick. And with those houses other marriage links around the stormlands, it's a powerful force. It's hard to tell, but these don't seem like bad picks considering there has also been Manwoody, Royce, Corbray and Plumm marriages. None of which are major houses either.

Children by Baela and Alyn Oakenfist are also a possibility.

Yeah idk lmao sorry.

[Lord Varys]

On the matches of Daeron's sons:

We know that Baelor was as old as Daemon Blackfyre (that is 14 in 184). We also know that Daeron had friends among the Marcher and Stormlords before he took the Crown, friends Aegon IV wanted to estrange him from with his whole Dornish War idea. We also can reasonably assume that Aegon IV did not broker the matches for Daeron's sons, suggesting that one of Daeron's first actions after his ascension would have been to broker betrothals for his young sons, as he had to consolidate his power - Aegon's clique did not like him, the rumor about his heritage hurt his reputation, and his Dornish marriage and friends were not all that popular.

Thus I think at least some - and perhaps all - of the brides of Daeron's sons were chosen back then when they were still children/youths. We don't really know if Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar were all 13, 12, and 11 (I doubt it) in 184, but if they were not, then the matches could have been brokered back then, only to be celebrated years later. This would also explain why Aerys I was married at all. I doubt that Daeron and Mariah would have brokered a match for him had they known how he would turn out at the time the betrothal was made.

Considering that the negotiations with Prince Maron and the signing of the pact with the Maron-Daenerys marriage took quite some time, I'm inclined to believe that Daeron found matches for (some of) his sons first or while the negotiations went on. It would be rather strange if he gave Baelor's hand in marriage to a potential rebel or unruly house. I rather expect that Daeron was already friends with the Dondarrions and Penroses in the first place, because the young heirs of those houses were called to court and raised with Daeron as close kin to House Targaryen (Prince Viserys was Rhaena Targaryen's half-brother, after all).

Nothing suggests that the Dondarrions or Penroses could have been really great or important houses beyond the relative minor sphere of the Dornish Marches/Stormlands. Targaryen heir apparents/kings never married any non-Valyrian house lower than the Hightowers (Maegor's desperate attempts to father an heir aside). Viserra was betrothed to a Lord Manderly, but she was only one of the many younger daughters of Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

Daeron II suddenly deciding to honor to rather insignificant houses with the hands of his two elder sons should have led to an outcry amongst all those more prestigious lords who certainly would have hoped that they could marry their daughter to the Prince of Dragonstone (or his younger brother). We know that many lords tried to gain influence and the king's ear by making their daughters Aegon's mistresses during his day and age. Surely some of the less scrupulous greater houses would have hoped to make their daughter the next queen - especially since Daeron apparently did not have a daughter. Now, if Egg's marriage to a Blackwood - a former royal house of First Man descent - had the potential to cause upheaval, then Baelor's and Aerys' marriage clearly had the same potential, as those houses clearly were even below the Blackwoods.

Unless we assume that the Penroses and Dondarrions of this day and age were closely related to House Targaryen. Then the majority of the Lords of the Realm could not really have objected to this continuation of the Targaryen incest on a lower level. This could also explain why Daeron II married Elaena to Ronnel Penrose, and made this not-so-competent man his Master of Coin in the first place. He was extended family, and a loyal friend Daeron could trust.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

On the matches of Daeron's sons:

We know that Baelor was as old as Daemon Blackfyre (that is 14 in 184). We also know that Daeron had friends among the Marcher and Stormlords before he took the Crown, friends Aegon IV wanted to estrange him from with his whole Dornish War idea. We also can reasonably assume that Aegon IV did not broker the matches for Daeron's sons, suggesting that one of Daeron's first actions after his ascension would have been to broker betrothals for his young sons, as he had to consolidate his power - Aegon's clique did not like him, the rumor about his heritage hurt his reputation, and his Dornish marriage and friends were not all that popular.

Thus I think at least some - and perhaps all - of the brides of Daeron's sons were chosen back then when they were still children/youths. We don't really know if Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar were all 13, 12, and 11 (I doubt it) in 184, but if they were not, then the matches could have been brokered back then, only to be celebrated years later. This would also explain why Aerys I was married at all. I doubt that Daeron and Mariah would have brokered a match for him had they known how he would turn out at the time the betrothal was made.

Considering that the negotiations with Prince Maron and the signing of the pact with the Maron-Daenerys marriage took quite some time, I'm inclined to believe that Daeron found matches for (some of) his sons first or while the negotiations went on. It would be rather strange if he gave Baelor's hand in marriage to a potential rebel or unruly house. I rather expect Daeron to be friends with the Dondarrions and Penroses in the first place, because the young heirs of those houses were called to court and raised with Daeron as close kin to House Targaryen (Prince Viserys was Rhaena Targaryen's half-brother, after all).

Nothing suggests that the Dondarrions or Penroses could have been really great or important houses beyond the relative minor sphere of the Dornish Marches/Stormlands. Targaryen heir apparents/kings never mentioned any non-Valyrian house lower than the Hightowers (Maegor's desperate attempts to father an heir aside). Viserra was betrothed to a Lord Manderly, but she was only one of the many younger daughters of Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

Daeron II suddenly deciding to honor to rather insignificant houses with the hands of his two elder sons should have led to an outcry amongst all those more prestigious lords who certainly would have hoped that they could marry their daughter to the Prince of Dragonstone (or his younger brother). We know that many lords tried to gain influence and the king's ear by making their daughter's Aegon's mistress during his day and age. Surely some of the less scrupulous greater houses would have hoped to make their daughter the next queen - especially since Daeron apparently did not have a daughter. Now, if Egg's marriage to a Blackwood - a former royal house of First Man descent - had the potential to cause upheaval, then Baelor's and Aerys' marriage clearly had the same potential, as those houses clearly were even below the Blackwoods.

Unless we assume that the Penroses and Dondarrions of this day and age were closely related to House Targaryen. Then the majority of the Lords of the Realm could not really have objected to this continuation of the Targaryen incest on a lower level. This could also explain why Daeron II married Elaena to Ronnel Penrose, and made this not-so-competent man his Master of Coin in the first place. He was extended family, and a loyal friend Daeron could trust.

That's good theorising, and makes sense. Aegon would be tying to cripple Daerons rule, and he was certainly doing that by denying marriages. However, maybe he did it to weaker houses to further cripple Daerons grasp, who could barely object to marriages with his best friends.

I also think regardless of Aerys temperament, they'd be trying to broker a marriage, or ship him of to the citadel if Dad hadn't died and he became King.

Giving Baelors hand to a potential rebel gives the Targs a hostage, and the Dondarrions less cause for complaint.

Other sources of blood could be through Jon any Jeyne Waters, who would be marriage candidates, and if it's blood they wanted, not prestige, it there.