Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn re-read project Part Two - Clash & Storm

[Hrafntýr]

Great analysis, LordStoneheart! I love the way that you brought out the unsettling, magical aspects of this chapter.

Cat's time in the Sept is such a terrific scene. It strikes me that the shifting, changing faces of the Seven on the walls are rather like the faces in the weirwoods, which also seem to shift and change, somehow reflecting or making apparent things that the person praying maybe already knows, deep inside; there's always a "mood" to these scenes of prayer, as if the feeling conveyed by the faces is part of the message. And the mood in this scene is just so profound: Cat is making connections between all these different actors. As you noted, Lysa and Cersei in the face of the Mother; it's a connection the depth of which Cat isn't aware, in that she then thinks of Cersei killing Jon Arryn to protect her children, and we'll learn that Lysa did this deed. Cat sees in the Warrior

Renly and Stannis, Robb and Robert, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow. She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant.

I feel like that glimpse of Arya in the Warrior's visage is meant to clue us in, if we needed more confirmation, that Cat is keyed in to supernatural knowledge in this chapter, since we, but not Cat, have witnessed Arya's transformation into a fighter, a killer.

It's just such a wonderful further enrichment of Cat's character, that she can be so ultra-rational AND open to the supernatural at the same time. It makes her the perfect pov through which to see Renly's death at the hands of Stannis' shadow, since we can't help but to utterly believe what we are seeing.

And boy, doesn't Cat yet again show her amazing cool-headedness in the midst of chaos?! Not only does she grasp, somehow, what has happened in Renly's tent, but she manages to save Brienne's life, through the brazier to Emmon Cuy's helm and her intervention with Robar Royce. That oath to Royce, on Ned's grave and her honor as a Stark, are so powerfully convincing, I think, because they express, in the heat of the moment, what is most central and valuable to Cat, and also the things that would speak most forcibly to a Royce. And a minor tidbit: yet again, as in the prologue to AGoT, we see that House Royce steps up to the plate when push comes to shove (and in both cases with supernatural foes part of the situation, and in both cases with death the result).

As for the Great Council idea: I'm pretty sure that House Lannister would never agree to it, that they'd stick to their line that these "traitors" were simply spreading lies to put themselves in power. But the rejection of the idea of House Lannister might not matter, if the united call for a Great Council served to unite against the Lannisters the camps of Robb, Renly and Stannis. But as you say, too late, given the sending forth of the shadow baby, all on account of Mel feeling driven to try to avert the catastrophe she had seen in her flames (which her action doesn't accomplish, incidentally).

And yes, the new friendship between Cat and Brienne is underway, to my view one of the most sadly beautiful friendships we see in the books.

[BearQueen87]

Catelyn IV: Shadows Cometh

Very nice job Lord Stoneheart! I think a secondary title for this chapter could be "Cat almost breaks down, but pulls it together once again because...she's Cat"

This chapter is very magical, for lack of a better word. From beginning to end, I think it gives a very mystical feel in between the more plain scenes.

Very. It's also heavily religious. Cat spends a good portion of this chapter beseeching the gods and her prayers certainly affects her. We get a good look at the faith of the 7 and the idea that there are not 7 gods, but one god with seven aspects, something that resonates with Cat who must be mother, father, crone, warrior and so on.

Within, the seven walls were cracked and crooked… In Winterfell, Septon Chayle hung carved masks from each wall. Here Catelyn found only rough charcoal drawings.

There is something very primal about this sept Cat visits. It's like her version of Ned's godswood. There are no bright colors or voices raised in song. It's not the ornate sept you would find at a great castle or in King's Landing. It's...raw, for want of a better word. It fits with Cat who is pretty much past all the trappings of of the ornate and showy beauty. Just look at the "party" she attends two chapters back with Renly and his knights of summer. They scream indulgence and shiny/pretty. This sept is not that; but Cat feels closer to the gods and is able to honestly evaluate things once you strip away all the shiny/pretty.

When they took his head off, they killed me too.

Cat has some of the saddest internal reflective lines in the entire series. Ugh, this one gets me right in the feels.

Another aspect I like is that Catelyn herself isn’t necessarily judging Cersei for the accusation of incest. She is only reflecting on the societal view. When she figures it was the reason Ned was killed, her thoughts still have this way of seeing it from Cersei’s view.

"Would I do any less for my own" is something Cat asks herself and I think she realizes that she has gone to great lengths to protect her own children. From leaving WF and going to KL, from taking Tyrion, from marching to RR and not back to WF to be with Bran and Rickon.

There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly’s shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm’s End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp.

I agree with your analysis. I also think that GRRM is cleverly showing that most of these men will turn and go to Stannis by the end of this book. Right now they are in a "limbo"--they belong to Renly but only until the end of this chapter. Then they become specters moving to different kings.

One last thing that makes me feel like this was possibly inspired by Homer:

As the long fingers of dawn fanned across the fields, color was returning to the world.

Compared to the epithet rosy-fingered Dawn that appears numerous times in the Iliad and Odyssey.

Very much agree. As a brief aside, when I had to translate the Iliad and Odyssey, it got to the point where whenever I came up against "rosy-fingered Dawn" I twitched and made an angry face in the margins.

As for the arming of the hero, it might not necessarily need to be a strict parallel to the Patroclus and Achilles relationship, but consider what end those two men met. Tragic ones. Achilles has his famous downfall, and we might say that Renly's own Achilles heel is his pride. In the Iliad, Achilles is all about his damn κλεος (honor or glory) and how he'd rather live a brief life that is full of the stuff of songs. (yeah, how'd that work out for you Achilles...cause in the Odyssey you don't seem so happy....). Renly and Achilles are both those "knights of summer" They will sing songs of us forever and the great glory we win here today! And yet both die tragic deaths that aren't so glorious and become heroes, yes, but also cautionary tales.

The Shadows Come to Dance

The build up to the battle is actually (IMO) build up for Renly’s assassination.

Yes I agree. It reminds me of the Whispering Wood. The buildup wasn't necessarily for the battle but for the capturing of Jaime.

A Call for Council

In my opinion, this chapter has what was probably the best idea in terms of what should have happened with this war.

“Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.”

I also think this is exactly what will happen at the end of the series. Cat predicted it long before it's going to happen.

Misc Notes

1. Cat "sees" certain people in the face of the gods, outside of Cersei. A few interesting ones...like seeing Jon Snow in the face of the Warrior, given that their relationship has been...uneasy. She also doesn't see Ned in the Father which is something that I never quite got.

2. There are a few moments where Cat seems right on the edge of tears but manages to hold back. There is a crack in the face of the mother that makes her look as though she is crying. I am reminded of Alyssa Arryn.

3. Poor Brienne.

[RainGhost]

Great read, Lord Stoneheart. I really like your analysis of the imagery and atmosphere in this chapter. I also really like how Catelyn is able to empathise with Cersei. I think it’s because she knows full well what lengths she would go to for her own children.

On the Great Council: I think it’s a brilliant idea and it had precedent with Aegon the Unlikely. I think Renly, Robb and Stannis had enough power between them to force at least the Vale and the Dorne to agree to a Council and that would leave the Lannisters powerless to protest. However, I think it’s too late by this point. If she had this idea during the parley it might have worked (though probably not) but of course it takes some time for her to consider Stannis’s accusation and put the pieces together. Renly is clearly against the idea and has already made a commitment to the Tyrells but I wonder if Stannis would be in favour of it. Probably not. I think the northern lords could be a problem as well because they seem pretty set on independence by this point. If even the northern lords aren’t on board, then there would be no hope for Catelyn’s idea.

Stannis was the one who should have called a Great Council and much much earlier because he was the one who had the information (if not proof). It might have worked at the end of AGoT but there’s little chance of it once Renly’s been crowned. Perhaps Ned should have thought of it as well, instead of acting independently. It’s a shame Catelyn wasn’t with him.

It’s so frustrating that this chapter starts with such a brilliant idea for a peaceful resolution but ends with Renly dead, his army divided and Catelyn turned against Stannis, who she had been hoping to ally with. It's lose-lose for everyone but the Lannisters and through no fault of Cat's.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Awesome work, Lord Stoneheart!

This is one of my favourite chapters of all ASOIAF... so well written, its mystical aura gets me to the point of shattering my unbeliever's nature :) and bow to the supernatural. Catelyn's prayer is one of those scenes that makes me wonder: what if gods do listen? What if Davos (after a similar experience on his rock) is the Mother's agent, to protect Rickon? What if the Hound is the (very peculiar) tool of the Maiden, to look after the girls? Is she, releasing Jaime, under the influence of the Crone?

I will also agree with Hrafntýr and the Bear Queen that this sept has a lot in common to the godswood as a place of prayer. In her first chapter, Catelyn defined worship as

a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song.

Here, there is only silence and solitude and those faces that become the faces of her deeper thoughts. The ambience (along with extreme fatigue and malnutrition, the unbeliever always lingers :)) imposes a quasi-trance state, allowing the subconscious to come forth and give a few moments of profound clarity: Arya as the Warrior; Lysa's face intertwined with Cersei's and both as the Mother and, for that, killer...

Self-Reflection

Catelyn is still being very critical of herself, even though the majority of what happens here is not her fault or in her control at all.

I have come so many thousands of leagues, and for what? Who have I served? I have lost my daughters, Robb does not want me, and Bran and Rickon must surely think me a cold and unnatural mother. I was not even with Ned when he died...

This is really heartbreaking for me because so much of this was out of her control, and her actions have always been about her family. It’s almost become her Raison d'être. Also, it’s one thing for her to mentally punish herself but perhaps there might be some physiological damage going on here.

I agree, Catelyn is being unjustly harsh on herself here, especially regarding Bran and Rickon, expressing a feeling of guilt from her part. I believe that, ironically, this exact sentence of hers is the source of the corresponding critisism that Catelyn gets. Catelyn is, perhaps, the most self-reflective and self-critical POV character.

What's the more interesting here, is that this "confession" is made to her own mother, when the Mother has taken the face of Lady Minissa.

She wondered what Lady Minisa would make of her eldest daughter, kneeling here before her.

Cat compares herself to her mother and finds herself wanting... as would be normal, since loss and time have turned Minissa from woman to ideal. Between Ned's "lost love" and her own mother, it seems that Catelyn has some insecurities of the sort that Arya also has, with Cat herself being the ideal of ladyhood and "ideal daughter" Sansa the competitor for Cat's affections...

------

The Achilles-Patroclus parallel is a very interesting idea and I feel almost ashamed that I had never thought about it before :)

Now I think that there is definitely some inspiration from the Iliad at play here:

a.) The Iliad is a narration of Achilles wrath, starting with his dispute with Agamemnon* over spoils of war (a woman, in particular, making the parallel all the more relevent by accosiating it to Dany's HotU vision).

* For the Stannis-Agamemnon parallels, see Mladen's amazing threads, here and here.

b.) The relationship between Renly and Loras / Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, friends and war companions, mentor-mentoree does not need further elaboration.

c.) The hero's armour:

When the tide of war turned away from the Acheans, and the Trojans threatened their ships, Patroclus convinced Achilles to let him don Achilles's armor and lead the Myrmidons into combat. In his lust for combat, Patroclus pursued the Trojans all the way back to the gates of Troy, defying Achilles's order to break off combat once the ships were saved. (Conveniently copied from Wikipedia)

Later in the battle of the Blackwater we have the same story somewhat altered, also referencing the legend of El Cid, with Garlan wearing the armour.

The BearQueen,

Very much agree. As a brief aside, when I had to translate the Iliad and Odyssey, it got to the point where whenever I came up against "rosy-fingered Dawn" I twitched and made an angry face in the margins.

Do you translate from the homeric dialect?!!! Wow!...

[BastardlyRock]

Sorry folks! I'm going to have to postpone my writeup a week as well - classes and work and family stuff took a greater toll this week than expected.

[koriandr]

Sorry to add something to previous chapter, but I found interesting that you compared that scene with stage (theater). Renly is wearing green which is in theathe associated with death/bad luck - maybe it is just coincidence, maybe another clever foreshadowing ;) I just thought it would be interesting to share.

Also thank you all for splendid coments I love it here.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Sorry to add something to previous chapter, but I found interesting that you compared that scene with stage (theater). Renly is wearing green which is in theathe associated with death/bad luck - maybe it is just coincidence, maybe another clever foreshadowing ;) I just thought it would be interesting to share.

Also thank you all for splendid coments I love it here.

Wellcome to the forums and to the Cat Re-read :cheers:

I didn't know about the green colour superstition in theatre (you are speaking about Molière's death, I suppose? that's what a quick search got me...), that was a very interesting bit of info.

I wouldn't take it as foreshadowing, but who knows? With all the theatre imagery in the chapter, it is indeed a very fitting choice of colour...

[koriandr]

Thanks for welcome ShadowCat Rivers :)

and yes, the superstition comes from Moliere's death.

[BastardlyRock]

Catelyn V: A Kind of Woman's Courage

Much of this chapter is dedicated to political banter that I've taken the liberty to by and large skim over, noting only the points that seemed highly relevant to Cat's character (and as such this chapter analysis may be a tad shorter than others). I'm sure there are many and more posters here that can add to this part of this discussion much more than I, and so I'm welcoming that up front.

Right off the bat we get to explore a little bit of one of my favorite relationships in the series, that being between Cat and Brienne. Brienne is still seething over Renly's murder, and through this we manage to touch a good deal on Cat's heart and see where she stands at the moment. One thing's immediately evident, Cat is as realistic (pessimistic) and sensible (depressing) as ever, and rightfully so. Upon hearing news of the great battles won, we're treated to this little gem: Tomorrow's trials concerned her more than yesterday's triumphs. Cat does not "whoop" with pleasure like Ser Wendel Manderly, nor can I see her ever "whooping" for any reason really. (But honestly, who would want her to? Isn't that part of what we love so much about her?) And she really dishes out the sound mind when she cautions Brienne, when you seek to follow him (Renly) into the earth, you serve no one. It's this kind of advice that really illustrates how much Brienne needs Cat at this moment in her life . . . but want to know the really cool thing? At the same exact time it illustrates how Cat really needs Brienne at this moment. Giving voice to these little tidbits grounds Cat in a sense of understanding that helps to keep her going. Things she may have only been saying before in her head, she can now hear aloud, making it all the more real. Brienne still has a reason to go on, a reason not to throw her life away so quickly. This is clear to Cat, but perhaps not to Brienne, and in realizing this Cat is better able to see the reasons she has to keep on truckin'. If you've been paying attention up to this point those reasons are pretty obvious (hint, they all have adorable half Tully half Stark features).

Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding into King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black. Oooo, this line gives me chills. It's the literal act of her fantasized revenge, and you know she means it when she says it. Again, this is therapeutic for Cat to be able to say. For Brienne her line is still drawn fairly cleanly, the sand and dirt haven't been kicked up as much for her yet as they have for Cat, whose line now resembles something more like this. Maybe even something like this. For Brienne the concept of ever aligning with Stannis is unfathomable. "You'd never make a peace with Stannis, would you? Bend the knee? You wouldn't..." / "I will tell you true Brienne. I do not know. My son may be a king, but I am no queen. . . only a mother who would keep her children safe, however she could. I'm going to do some deep analysis here and say that we should take that line to mean that Cat would do anything she could to keep her children safe. I'm out!

Brienne swears her vows; they're quite wonderful but I was too lazy to type them all up here. Cat's are also wonderful, if you haven't read them in a while I suggest doing so now (in my hardcover edition they're on page 420). We're not pulling any punches here to say that the poor woman is constantly still grappling with the loss of her husband, as she literally has had no time to just stop and properly mourn him. Her mourning has been hit and miss and on the road, and everything that happens to her, in some way, somewhere in her head, she connects to Ned. This is no different, and she reflects on the number of times she's seen men make vows to Ned. She wondered what he would think if he could see her now. This line makes me equal parts sad and proud. I wonder (admittedly somewhat bizarrely) if that's not something akin to what Ned may feel if he indeed did see her there. Sad that she has to live in a time like the one she's living in, but proud of how she's handling it despite everything. This is the scene where the line "a kind of woman's courage" comes from, uttered by Brienne. It speaks to Brienne's intuition just as well, which is dead on . . . in five little words it captures Cat's spirit better than perhaps 500 or even 5,000 could.

Well it wouldn't be right if I just talked her up this whole time without throwing a little controversy out there ;) I won't even poke the hornet's nest too hard this time, but I am curious what everyone thinks. When Cat learns of Cortnay's fears for Edric, this thought flickers through her head: He risks all for a baseborn boy whose blood is not even his own. How do you read that line? I realized I could hear it in my head a couple different ways. At first I heard it incredulously, but then I figured it could just as easily be delivered with a sort of admiration in her tone... of course she doesn't say it out loud, so no one else comments, and we don't visit it again, but I'm curious. Is she skeptical? Is she cynical? I hate to think about her own thoughts for Jon Snow here, but they do come to mind unbidden. Thoughts?

Politics politics politics. Cat is very smart, Cat is very insightful, I never had much love for all of the tactics and war talk, as I said above, I'll leave some of this discourse for others to discuss. Two things of note I will bring up here: 1) I find it interesting that she immediately thinks Tyrion was behind the ploy to spring Jaime free, and 2) that she thinks fighting Tywin on the battlefield is foolish. Cat shows great prudence here, and more insight into the finer points of war than most men (I'll include myself in there).

Then there are her dad's ravings; we get much deeper insights later, but there's still some secrecy laced into his cryptic words here. The "wretched stripling" is undoubtedly Littlefinger, though honestly I only know this through the benefit of hindsight. Regardless, something much more profound was about to happen when Cat found two silent sisters waiting for her. I started off with just the beginning, but then I realized the entire passage deserved to be preserved here:

Bones, Catelyn thought. this is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, but one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone. They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered.

Will this at last serve as some form of comfort to her? Will she be able to mourn more completely on this night, finally having his remains? I can only guess at these questions, but I would hesitate to say no, not fully. She sees nothing familiar here, the bones aren't familiar, even the sword is an imposter. Is it better than nothing? Undoubtedly. Cat is sure to make arrangements to see that he is taken as far as Winterfell, to see that Ned gets all that he deserves, but it's not all that she deserves. This represents a major step forward in her mourning, but it doesn't close any of the doors. Those doors would only ever be addressed in peace time, and even then not all of them would ever fully shut again, that's the sad honesty of it.

[LordStoneheart]

Good job, my Bastardly friend. I'll quote the speech for you here.

Brienne stared at the ground and shuffled her feet. “I do not know your son, my lady.” She looked up. “I could serve you. If you would have me.”

Catelyn was startled. “Why me?”

The question seemed to trouble Brienne. “You helped me. In the pavilion... when they thought that I had... that I had... “

“You were innocent.”

“Even so, you did not have to do that. You could have let them kill me. I was nothing to you.”

Perhaps I did not want to be the only one who knew the dark truth of what had happened there, Catelyn thought. “Brienne, I have taken many wellborn ladies into my service over the years, but never one like you. I am no battle commander.”

“No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but... I don’t know... a kind of woman’s courage. And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis.”

Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb’s turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck. “When the time comes, I will not hold you back.”

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. “Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or... whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.”

“And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise.” As she clasped the other woman’s hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile. How many times did I watch Ned accept a man’s oath of service- She wondered what he would think if he could see her now.

[LordStoneheart]

Fun fact; I considered “A Woman’s Courage” as a title for our project. I’ve been looking forward to this chapter for a long time.

I think a good question to ask is why did GRRM pair these two together? Are they opposites or are they parallels? Brienne and Cat may be more alike than they think, for Cat is a lot stronger than she gives herself credit and Brienne is a lot more naïve and romantic than she lets on. In a way, I like to think of Brienne as a meld of Arya and Sansa.

I considered the idea that Brienne just needed to get to Jaime, but I’m not sure about that one. Since a direct comparison to Ned is made, I think this oath is the more important aspect than Jaime. It might be GRRM once again wanting to get the mother figure to the forefront of fantasy conventions by having her involved in an oath that is probably a more male occurrence.

There are three other oaths I can think of that we see on screen. Jon’s oath to the NW, Dany’s bloodriders and Jorah’s oath to her, and Jojen and Meera’s oath to Bran. Interestingly, each of these has some sort of magical feel or vibe to them, something that is absent from Cat and Brienne’s. Sure, it’s in the aftermath of shadow magic, but to me it feels much more personal than the others. From one Lady to another.

About Cat and Edric, I interpret it as her pragmatic side over her compassionate side, something we see in this same chapter when she looks at the small folk inside Riverrun despite Tywin’s moving army. In wartime, I think think the general consensus would be that a siege is easier to hold if the people inside are actually useful, and the smallfolk aren’t trained castle-holders. Cat considers the last time Riverrun was besieged after Edmure’s loss against Jaime and is concerned about that.

Similarly, we have Cortnay refusing what is probably the most generous terms a besieger can give (amnesty) for the boy. I believe Catelyn is looking at this from the view of trying to get out of the siege with the least damage done, and if it’s boy over an entire castle, that may seem like a waste. In a way it reminds me of Stannis’ own what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom? and If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark… Words/views of his that are often defended. ;)

[BearQueen87]

ACK. the wrong thing posted. Ignore this!

[BearQueen87]

Catelyn V: A Kind of Woman's Courage

Nice job BastardlyRock!

I agree that this chapter is very political in nature, but I also think there is a lot to be said about the two Tully siblings. Once again we have Cat going "up against" her kin with her coming out looking the better for it. With Lysa, we quickly saw that Lady Arryn was vain and given to showy presentations that ultimately lost her Tyrion Lannister. Edmure is not that different. He is also prideful and vain and wants to give a "good show" on the battlefield largely due to the fact that Robb has done so well in battle and Edmure wants to be sung of as well. There must be a certain sting in having to hear a song about your nephew's prowess every night while you have had no victory, only one very bloody loss.

Cat on the other hand, does not have time for these male egos. Edmure can sulk and petty all he wishes, Cat will try for tact but in the end, she must be heard. Though there is also a sense that she is tired of talking to "fools." Between Renly and his circus of a host, Stannis and his unyeilding pride over Renly's men not being his men, and Edmure wanting a piece of the action....Cat has been surrounded by men and their egos for a few chapters now and it's grating on her. There is an exhaustion to the whole chapter; Cat thinks about how nice it would be to sleep on a featherbed, with a warm fire.

So naturally that's when George decides that Ned's bones should arrive. Evil man.

Right off the bat we get to explore a little bit of one of my favorite relationships in the series, that being between Cat and Brienne. Brienne is still seething over Renly's murder, and through this we manage to touch a good deal on Cat's heart and see where she stands at the moment. One thing's immediately evident, Cat is as realistic (pessimistic) and sensible (depressing) as ever, and rightfully so.

Brienne is in my top 10 characters of ASOIAF and I love her relationship with Cat. Brienne stands in contrast to the men around both her and Cat while at the same time being like those men. Brienne has a skill set that most men would find admirable were Brienne not a woman---the same can be said for Cat. Cat is a negotiator and a pretty decent strategist, but she's a woman and thus men do not incline their ear to her wisdom as much as they should, especially when the blood lust is upon them and they are eager to fight. Where Brienne differs is that it's not a blood lust that's driving her, or a need to fight. She wants to defend her dead king. It's not about killing Lannisters, which seems to be a very Northern concern (seriously, how many times did the various groups of men in this chapter talk about killing Lannisters....)

At the same exact time it illustrates how Cat really needs Brienne at this moment. Giving voice to these little tidbits grounds Cat in a sense of understanding that helps to keep her going.

Brienne makes Cat smile, and we haven't seen Cat genuinely smile in a good long while.

This is no different, and she reflects on the number of times she's seen men make vows to Ned. She wondered what he would think if he could see her now. This line makes me equal parts sad and proud. I wonder (admittedly somewhat bizarrely) if that's not something akin to what Ned may feel if he indeed did see her ther

No that's absolutely what Ned would be feeling--I thought the same thing when I re-read the chapter.

Well it wouldn't be right if I just talked her up this whole time without throwing a little controversy out there ;) I won't even poke the hornet's nest too hard this time, but I am curious what everyone thinks. When Cat learns of Cortnay's fears for Edric, this thought flickers through her head: He risks all for a baseborn boy whose blood is not even his own. How do you read that line? I realized I could hear it in my head a couple different ways. At first I heard it incredulously, but then I figured it could just as easily be delivered with a sort of admiration in her tone... of course she doesn't say it out loud, so no one else comments, and we don't visit it again, but I'm curious. Is she skeptical? Is she cynical? I hate to think about her own thoughts for Jon Snow here, but they do come to mind unbidden. Thoughts?

I think it's both admiration and a bit of incredulity. But mostly it's admiration. Cat just thought that she would do whatever she had to keep her children safe--and here's a man who's doing the same thing, only this child is not actually his. And yes, I've often wondered if Jon Snow doesn't flicker across her mind at this point. From a meta-reader perspective it's a nice RLJ nudge.

Regardless, something much more profound was about to happen when Cat found two silent sisters waiting for her. I started off with just the beginning, but then I realized the entire passage deserved to be preserved here:

Cat knows instantly who they are and why they are there. :(

This is the last night that Ned and Cat will spend the night together and it's no wonder that Cat's memories come up of the nights they've spent together since they wed:

but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her.

It's not even sexual. It's just tender; Cat just wants to be held again but her father is dying and feeble minded and her lord and husband is dead and her brother is off playing at war.

Misc Notes

1. "Catelyn had never been so glad to see the twin tower badge of House Frey." This is deeply and sadly ironic. In this chapter the Frey sigil is a welcome sight and they get painted as heroes who come to Cat's aid.

2. Lady Mormont has captured thousands of cattle! (I kinda love the entire Mormont clan of Bear Island)

3. Even Aegon and his sisters couldn't take Casterly Rock and they had dragons. Siege engines or not, you're not going to take the Rock, Robb.

4. Some interesting tales about Grey Wind and Robb in this chapter. The wolves were sent by the old gods (*cough* Bloodraven *cough*) indeed. One wonders if Robb would be as successful in battle if he did not have Greywind.

5. Men are being hung for trying to free the Kingslayer. Ironic forshadowing for end of ACOK and LSH is ironic and foreshadowy.

There are three other oaths I can think of that we see on screen. Jon’s oath to the NW, Dany’s bloodriders and Jorah’s oath to her, and Jojen and Meera’s oath to Bran. Interestingly, each of these has some sort of magical feel or vibe to them, something that is absent from Cat and Brienne’s. Sure, it’s in the aftermath of shadow magic, but to me it feels much more personal than the others. From one Lady to another.

Nice points! It's interesting because yes, there is an absence of magic to the Brienne oath, but it comes about because of magic--the shadow murder of Renly. So the magic factor is still there but it's the impetus, not what is happening when the oath is given. Agree that it's also much more personal because Cat has to get Brienne "over to her side" as it were. Brienne doesn't swear out of loyalty automatically. She does it after Cat points out the flaws in Brienne's plan and how there is *another* option.

As to the bold (because Dany and Jorah references are my bread and butter), but Jorah swears to Dany three times in the final GOT POV and it's only the last time that it has that magical dragons-have-just-been-reborn deal. The first two times are actually a bit more like Brienne were the "knight" lays his sword at the feet of his liege and the knight and the lord/lady make promises in return. The first time it's private and all the trappings are there but it's more of a man swearing to a woman than a knight swearing to his queen (there is no literal sword being placed, only one mentioned in passing, the language is far less ritualistic, and really it's a declaration of love). The second time is the knight and his queen that lines up with Brienne and Cat

--Brienne swear protection and counsel and to give her life for Cat's

--Jorah swear protection and counsel and to give his life for Dany's

--Cat swears meat and mead and and hearth and honor

--Dany swears honor and home and a sword

--With Brienne and Cat it ends with them clasping hands to seal the deal

--With Dany and Jorah it ends with a kiss.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Very nice work Bastardly!

A couple of quick observations, for now.

And she really dishes out the sound mind when she cautions Brienne, when you seek to follow him (Renly) into the earth, you serve no one. It's this kind of advice that really illustrates how much Brienne needs Cat at this moment in her life . . . but want to know the really cool thing? At the same exact time it illustrates how Cat really needs Brienne at this moment. Giving voice to these little tidbits grounds Cat in a sense of understanding that helps to keep her going. Things she may have only been saying before in her head, she can now hear aloud, making it all the more real. Brienne still has a reason to go on, a reason not to throw her life away so quickly. This is clear to Cat, but perhaps not to Brienne, and in realizing this Cat is better able to see the reasons she has to keep on truckin'. If you've been paying attention up to this point those reasons are pretty obvious (hint, they all have adorable half Tully half Stark features).

I like a lot how you demonstrate that Cat and Brienne really need each other at that point in their life. This relationship is, I agree, very important for both characters.

The chapter, however, emphasizes on Cat's need to revenge. Not only in this instance, where she voices this need along with the (right!) reasons to suppress it... This one stood out for me:

“Ice was not returned to us, my lady,” Utherydes said. “Only Lord Eddard’s bones.”

“I suppose I must thank the queen for even that much.”

“Thank the Imp, my lady. It was his doing.”

One day I will thank them all.

A very dark vibe this future "thanksgiving" has... and, compare it to this:

Someday she will find them, hunt them, smell their fear, taste their blood. Someday.

(ADWD, The Blind Girl)

I think it is important to highlight this aspect of Cat's personality. Because, later when she rises as Lady Stoneheart, it's not out of the blue, it's still Catelyn - parts of her, anyway. And, it is not unreasonable that she's taken that turn: the reasons, as very eloquently explained by Bastardly, to keep going and not seek vengeance, have all perished, to her knowledge... there is nothing to restrain her; vengeance is the only task left to her as family, duty, honor dictate.


A detail from the oath scene that speaks of Catelyn's character:

Catelyn was startled. “Why me?”

The question seemed to trouble Brienne. “You helped me. In the pavilion... when they thought that I had... that I had... “

“You were innocent.”

“Even so, you did not have to do that. You could have let them kill me. I was nothing to you.”

Perhaps I did not want to be the only one who knew the dark truth of what had happened there, Catelyn thought.

Cat could have congratulated herself for being so firm on doing the right thing, ie saving Brienne because she were innocent even if she didn't have to. Alternatively, she could just bypass it. But no, she thinks about her deepest motives, doesn't shy away from excavating her darker side and is very critical to herself. I think these things deserve to be highlighted because often, Cat is critisized for being, well, the opposite. IMO, Catelyn is the most self aware and self critical characters.
I also believe that her remark on ser Cortnay's stance regarding Edric is part admiration and part underlying self critisism, if we connect it with her thoughts on Cersei and her children and of her own stance in her place. Which is not so fair to herself, taking into account what she did for Brienne, a homely girl who is not even of her own blood...


I had to finish with this... :crying: :crying: :crying:

Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, but one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone. They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered.

The Ned wins the most romantic description anyone has ever gotten in this series.
Cat and Ned's relationship is, I think, established by this inner monologue as more than a successful marriage; Catelyn mourns her man, her lover. I am always taken by this passage, especially with Ned's eyes, soft as a fog or hard as stone...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I am very sorry for the delay... :(

Cat VI will be up tomorrow.

[The Sleeper]

First, I would like to congratulate all participants for their insightful and well thought out posts on one of Martin's most well rounded and intriguing characters.

And for own minor contribution jumping in at this late stage:

Having gone through this reread all at once, I couldn't help but notice and growing sense of isolation and despodency. Catelyn spends her entire arc trying to take care of her family yet she is deprived of them. Ned is dead, Sansa is hostage, Arya is missing, Bran and Rickon are in Winterflell, and she is separated from Robb due to the demands of the roles both must play. Her father is senile, her sister has become a stranger and her brother doesn't know and doesn't want to deal with her. The only one she can be herself with is Brynden, but even h has to follow Robb. This is a great departure from her earlier life where she was actively engaged on multiple levels with a large family surrounding her and a household to run. And yet she finds herself in her childhood home in a somewhat awkward position as it has little place for her. It is no wonder that she forms her bond with a Brienne a woman, who has been in that position largely for her whole life and finding herself similarly in bereavement.

[LordStoneheart]

I am very sorry for the delay... :(

Cat VI will be up tomorrow.

No problem. We've all been there, my shadowy friend. :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

First, I would like to congratulate all participants for their insightful and well thought out posts on one of Martin's most well rounded and intriguing characters.

And for own minor contribution jumping in at this late stage:

Having gone through this reread all at once, I couldn't help but notice and growing sense of isolation and despodency. Catelyn spends her entire arc trying to take care of her family yet she is deprived of them. Ned is dead, Sansa is hostage, Arya is missing, Bran and Rickon are in Winterflell, and she is separated from Robb due to the demands of the roles both must play. Her father is senile, her sister has become a stranger and her brother doesn't know and doesn't want to deal with her. The only one she can be herself with is Brynden, but even h has to follow Robb. This is a great departure from her earlier life where she was actively engaged on multiple levels with a large family surrounding her and a household to run. And yet she finds herself in her childhood home in a somewhat awkward position as it has little place for her. It is no wonder that she forms her bond with a Brienne a woman, who has been in that position largely for her whole life and finding herself similarly in bereavement.

Wellcome to the Cat re-read!

A good observation... Yes, I think it does feel like returning to live in her parent's house in the sense not only of having lost what she had before but also of regressing to minority age in a way, becoming dependent once again... I am not sure if I can convey this feeling well enough though...

Brienne is a very important person in Cat's developement and I hope we can discuss their relationship and the way they influence each other in more depth as we progress with the re-read.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ACOK, Catelyn VI

a host of doubts and fears

Quick overview

As Edmure rides off to give battle to Tywin, Catelyn awaits with Brienne at Riverrun, contemplating about life, the war and everything, and making her mind about some very important decisions.


Observations

• Brienne proves herself a capable analyst of war strategies too, as she is spot on about Tywin’s moves.
• In spite (or because of?) their differences, Catelyn and Brienne’s connection grows stronger. I liked how it’s displayed here, with Brienne answering Cat’s unspoken question:

Why do boys so love to play at war? […]

“Fighting is better than this waiting,” Brienne said. “You don’t feel so helpless when you fight. You have a sword and a horse, sometimes an axe. When you’re armored it’s hard for anyone to hurt you.”

• I trust Catelyn when she speaks of human nature and political realities, so this is something to keep in mind for future revelations and “revelations”:

“Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing.”

Analysis

This is a transitioning chapter, providing the built up to the dramatic developments of the next.


Edmure’s battle

A lot of space is given to Edmure’s battle. This is a topic that I won’t touch as age never made me any wiser in the ways of war. I will only note that Catelyn feels uncomfortable with it since the beginning and that, IMO, was not done in order to portray Cat as haughty towards her little brother but rather, it was the author’s way to pass a message to the reader; especially by having Catelyn try (not so successfully) to convince herself that Edmure knows what he’s doing and that her fears are baseless.
This chapter follows a Tyrion’s POV, preparing to defend Kings Landing. Here, a look at the map is informing us that Tywin’s forces are reaching the Blackwater, giving us good reason to share Cat’s worries about the overall war outcome.


A woman’s battles, a woman’s duty

“As hard as birth can be, Brienne, what comes after is even harder. At times I feel as though I am being torn apart. Would that there were five of me, one for each child, so I might keep them all safe.”

It is well established by now what Catelyn considers her first and foremost duty, her raison d'être: to protect her children. But it has started to collide with other, lesser duties that are nevertheless imposed on her and she is expected to comply.
Reading Catelyn’s thoughts about how she always did her duty, meaning what was expected of her, I can’t help but sense a sort of resentment. Especially when combined to the end of this thematic section, where she comments on who would keep her safe:

Her smile was wan and tired. “Why, the men of my House. Or so my lady mother taught me. My lord father, my brother, my uncle, my husband, they will keep me safe... but while they are away from me, I suppose you must fill their place, Brienne.”

Well, now the men of her House are all dead or close enough, or away to war… and even if they were there for her, would they be of any use? Would they understand that her girls are a million times more important than her personal safety?
Still in this chapter, she has not yet crossed the barrier; but inside her a big battle is raging and the dutiful, see obedient, lady is so going to lose to the mother…


You know nothing

A lot of bastard talk in this chapter and, inevitably, some thoughts dedicated to Jon Snow (and to his mother) will bring to the foreground a common theme in Cat’s and Jon’s arcs and some impressive parallels between them.

Osmynd, my father, Uncle Brynden, old Maester Kym, they always seemed to know everything, but now there is only me, and it seems I know nothing, not even my duty. How can I do my duty if I do not know where it lies?

Jon wondered what his father would do, how his uncle might deal with this. But Eddard Stark was dead, Benjen Stark lost in the frozen wilds beyond the Wall. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

---------

It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion.

These are the characters’ thoughts at the eve of taking an important, and controversial, decision. Self doubt, wish for ‘a better person’ to be in their place and/or advise them – and finally, as we will see in Cat’s next chapter, do what they believe it’s the right thing to do and own the consequences.

The interrogation of Cleos Frey here (that prepares the way for the Truth Game with Jaime Lannister) also demonstrates the painful path to taking the big decision: doubts, self doubts, and ambivalence:

He had no part in Ned’s murder, at the least. And he came to my defense when the clansmen attacked us. If I could trust his word...

vs

“He lied,” she said, rising abruptly. “The Lannisters are liars every one, and the dwarf is the worst of them. The killer was armed with his own knife.”

Cat here is still undecided on whether she should “drink from this cup”. “You know nothing,” she finishes her conversation with Cleos Frey, but this is mostly said to herself.

Once again, her chapter ends with dark words and ominous feelings, soon to come true:

But if we are winning, why am I so afraid?

[BearQueen87]

ACOK, Catelyn VI

a host of doubts and fears

Very nice job ShadowCat!

I agree that this is a transition type of chapter and is really gearing up the reader for some future events (I always do a double take when I read that Robb is at House Westerling for the moment...)

especially by having Catelyn try (not so successfully) to convince herself that Edmure knows what he’s doing and that her fears are baseless.

The men always come across as so confident--arrogant, even. They are partying and singing and drinking and Edmure's boast that he shall not let Hoster down is full of manly pride. Cat is worried and--logically--who wouldn't be?? It's war. Any one battle, any one death, any one outcome can shift the balance. That's why I love Cat's line at the end of the chapter. Winning a battle here or there doesn't amount too much until the very end. It's not over until it's over, and so this sense of revelry that permeates the Riverrun base of operations would be 1) annoying and 2) not at all inspiring.

Still in this chapter, she has not yet crossed the barrier; but inside her a big battle is raging and the dutiful, see obedient, lady is so going to lose to the mother…

Mother, Wife, Daughter, Sister, Lady. 'Tis a lot of hats.

A lot of bastard talk in this chapter and, inevitably, some thoughts dedicated to Jon Snow (and to his mother) will bring to the foreground a common theme in Cat’s and Jon’s arcs and some impressive parallels between them.

What strikes me in this chapter about all the bastard talk is that there is no bitterness in Cat toward either Ned for breaking his vows, toward Jon for being the consequence of those broken vows, or for the mother who shared her Lord's bed. At this point both Cat and this "other woman" have lost Ned and Cat actually pauses to wonder if the other woman mourns Ned in the same way she does (or, yes, angry with him). She thinks that these thoughts are "futile"--what does it matter anymore? Your perspective on things that bothered you before change when there is a massive upheaval in life--war, death of a husband, your son becoming king, and your daughters maybe being lost to you forever.

And, as always, I am struck by the sheer tragedy of the fact that there is no "other woman" at least not the way Cat envisions.

Misc Notes

1. I really adore Brienne. There are some interesting Sansa and Arya parallels here with her as she walks around with Cat. For Arya: Brienne pats the hilt of her sword (Arya does this constantly with Needle to assure herself that she is safe or before she enters a new situation); Brienne is dressed in leathers and mail instead of dresses, something Arya would prefer as well. But yet Brienne obviously has fond memories of singers and the songs they sing--and when Brienne speaks of these things, Cat is reminded of Sansa.