On the black stones and the Song (Part 1)

[Cookiesbane]

So it’s my time to shine under the tinfoil sun with some speculations/ theories on what is going on with the black stones and how they relate to the ASOIAF mythos and story. I want to avoid having a word vomit as a post so I have broken down my theory in different parts with this one being the first. I will post the second some time later.

Before I start I have to say that I believe the black stones and their origins are not fundamental in the story of the ASOIAF books but are more of an expansion of the mythos. This mostly due to fact that they were introduced quite late in the series and in a companion book instead one of the main books. In other worlds, the origin of the black stones is similar to the origin of Gandalf in LOTR. Whether the reader knows that Gandalf is a Mainar or not the story and the character’s actions are not affected by that knowledge.

Also I don’t believe that the black stones are simply a tribute to H.P. Lovecraft. A city in the far east of Essos named Carcosa is a tribute to an author but a common occurrence throughout the world you created is not.

Now, to start with the theory, I believe that despite the minor differences between the stones (others are greasy others have an unpleasant feel) and the structures composed of them (Yeen is blocky and simple while the Lorathi and Oldtown structures are labyrinth like) they are made by the same people/nation and are of the same material. Their differences can be attributes to different types of the same material being used for different purposes, similar to how IRL different types of steel alloys are used in different applications.

Mrs Grumpy created a nice map that shows known locations of black stones although she forgot to add Lorath . The map clearly shows that whoever created the black stone structures preferred to stay close to the sea. The exception is the Five Forts which are not close to the sea but they are quite close to the Bleeding Sea, a lake which in TWOIAF is mentioned to have deep waters.

The TWOIAF describes each location (from east to west in the map) as follows:

• Five Forts

Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west … but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold’s rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east.

The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men … and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.

• Asshai

Few places in the known world are as remote as Asshai, and fewer are as forbidding. Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all.Even the Asshai’i do not claim to know who built their city; they will say only that a city has stood here since the world began and will stand here until it ends.

Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.

Asshai is a large city, sprawling out for leagues on both banks of the black river Ash. Behind its enormous land walls is ground enough for Volantis, Qarth, and King’s Landing to stand side by side and still have room for Oldtown.

Yet the population of Asshai is no greater than that of a good-sized market town.

And there are no children in Asshai.

The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become … until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. Or so the stories say.

• Isle of Toads

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. If so, they are the sole surviving remnant of this forgotten race.

• Yeen

A ruin older than time, built of oily black stone, in massive blocks so heavy that it would require a dozen elephants to move them, Yeen has remained a desolation for many thousands of years, yet the jungle that surrounds it on every side has scarce touched it. (“A city so evil that even the jungle will not enter, ” Nymeria is supposed to have said when she laid eyes on it, if the tales are true). Every attempt to rebuild or resettle Yeen has ended in horror.

• Lorath

Sprawling constructs of bewildering complexity, made from blocks of hewn stone, the mazemakers’ constructions are scattered across the isles—and one, badly overgrown and sunk deep into the earth, has been found on Essos proper, on the peninsula south of Lorath. Lorassyon, the second largest of the Lorath isles, is home to a vast maze that fills more than three-quarters of the surface area of the island and includes four levels beneath the ground, with some passages descending five hundred feet.

In ancient days, the isles were home to the mysterious race of men known as the mazemakers, who vanished long before the dawn of true history, leaving no trace of themselves save for their bones and the mazes they built.

• Hightower

The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend.

The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years.

Who built it? When? Why? Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite

More troubling, and more worthy of consideration, are the arguments put forth by those who claim that the first fortress is not Valyrian at all.

The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valyrian. The labyrinthine nature of its interior architecture has led Archmaester Quillion to suggest that the fortress might have been the work of the mazemakers, a mysterious people who left remnants of their vanished civilization upon Lorath in the Shivering Sea. The notion is intriguing but raises more questions than it answers.

An even more fanciful possibility was put forth a century ago by Maester Theron. Born a bastard on the Iron Islands, Theron noted a certain likeness between the black stone of the ancient fortress and that of the Seastone Chair, the high seat of House Greyjoy of Pyke, whose origins are similarly ancient and mysterious. Theron’s rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn.

• Seastone Chair

The throne of the Greyjoys, carved into the shape of a kraken from an oily black stone, was said to have been found by the First Men when they first came to Old Wyk. Haereg argued that the chair was a product of the first inhabitants of the islands, and only the later histories of maesters and septons alike began to claim that they were in fact descended of the First Men

There are a couple of things that can be concluded from the above descriptions:

1. The material of the mazes in Lorath are not described as similar to the black stones. They are only similar to the Hightower mazes in terms of architecture. I believe though that at least a connections exits between them and the blackstone so they should be in this list.

2. Asshai seems to be the capital and probably the place of origin of whoever built the black stones. This is based on the fact that Asshai is the most expansive structure in all the black stone locations and certainly bigger than the other known city of such nature, Yeen.

3. Going from east to west the structures grow in complexity and appearance. The Five forts are blocky while the Hightower is mazelike, etc. This can have two explanations. The first is the black stone people took a lot of time to expand and colonize from their place of origin as is usually the case IRL too. In those years they improved their techniques and increased their technological and aesthetic skills. The other explanation is that each location served different functions and purposes. The Five Forts are a defensive structures so of course they are blocky and heavy while Yeen is a city (probable grew as a trade location or as a source of resources they needed) and the Isle of Toads sounds like a temple or holy ground of sorts. Of course these explanations are not mutually exclusive and probably the case is that they both contributed equally to the result.

4. The black stone people seem to have a strong relationship with the sea, or water in general. They stay close to it as the black stone locations suggest. Structures such as the Seastone chair and the statue on the Isle of Toads also imply that their religious beliefs were revolved around the sea and sea life. Despite that, I don’t think that the legends of fish people and Deeps ones are true. Valyrians were pretty much a fire nation but they weren’t half-dragons or beings made of fire. They just used it so much that they were culturally and technologically bound to it. Probably that is what happened with the black stone people as well. Furthermore, if the black stone people were fish-like, or even amphibians they wouldn’t have built Asshai on soil but below the sea level and if they absolutely had to build a city above sea level they would probably do it somewhere moist and muddy like the Neck.

5. The black stone structures are quite comparable to valyrian structures and architecture especially Hightower. Volantis is described as an ‘immense labyrinth’ in the Free Cities section of TWOIAF further tying the similarities together. According to the wiki of ice and fire, the Valyrians worked stone similar to clay and did so by manipulating it with fire and magic. It is not specifically said that they used dragonfire to work the stones but I don’t believe this be impossible. (I can easily see Valyrians using the weakest dragon’s for construction work and as postal service; it would be an efficient use of a dragon in times of peace). Hence it might be the case that the black stone people had developed the same stone techniques as the Valyrians (only not as advances since they are an older civilization). It might even possible that they had tamed or simply captured and used dragons themselves. In fact in the Valyrian section of TWOIAF the following is mentioned:

   These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

   Although only a legend it is worth noting and it seems to tie with my above speculation.

So to sum, an ancient civilization existed before the rise of Valyria (probably Old Ghis and Yi Ti too) which created the black stone structures. This people originated from Asshai and explanded towards the west. They had similar technology to Valyrians (and probably dragons) and their culture (and nature) was sea-centric.

Of course all these raise a ot of questions. What happened to the black stone people, why there is not record of them in history or legends and how they actually relate with the rest of the story. All this I will try to answer (with extra thick tinfoil) in the next and last part.

[kompaya]

I want to confess!

where do I begin, my ladies and lords..

i didnt read the whole shiez but I do agree with the summary. Well done, i s'pose

[EternET]

Hmmmm, very well researche topic (thank you for the quotes and bits, that would help).

first there are other topics that talk about the black stones : This one , or that one for example.

Ok now on your conclusion, I don't think you can say "Asshai seems to be the capital and probably the place of origin of whoever built the black stones. This is based on the fact that Asshai is the most expansive structure in all the black stone locations and certainly bigger than the other known city of such nature, Yeen."

Because yes, Asshaï can be said to be "bigger than it's inhabitants", but Yeen is described as "Cyclopean ruins" (and it's another wink at Cthulhu).

Also argument from history : Yeen is in Sothoryos, the "somehow" equivalent of Africa, and humanity came from Africa (that's that). Furthermore, as it is placed on a Delta, we may think about ancient Egypt, BUT, as it was "abandoned", and it's supposed to be a "civilisation that brought things to Valyria", it makes me think of Carthage and the Etruscans (who were supposed to be the ancestors, and then enemies of the roman empire).

Ok now = connection to sea: when are the deep Ones and the kraken coming ? Is Cthulhu the vilain/drowned god ?

Now that's an interesting take on this, let's see where you're going from there.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Oh :blushing:

Ax Isle have black stones too. A Qartheen dude made a fort with them. Yandel said ruins upon Ax Isle, Isle of Tears and Isle of Toads hint at some ancient people, we know there is a frog idol in Isle of Toads, which is carved from the black stone.

So yeah. Add Isle of Tears and Ax Isle to the list.

Question is did Deep Ones built Asshai or what? I start to think mazemakers, nameless people and deep ones were battling with each other...

And god...what happened to Rhoynar at Yeen :frown5:

As the Toad Islanders have Deep One-like features, I think Basilisk Islands were controlled by Deep Ones.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I notice you did not include the cottage sized basalt stones scattered about at Moat Cailin. They are said to have been a curtain wall but now they are littering the swamp. It seems the Hammer of the Waters knocked down the basalt stone structure which puts it's origins way back. It may have been men but it may have been there when the first First Men showed their faces and we know the giants and Singers don't work stone.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

I like it. In addition, I would also surmise that on top of being a sea-centric culture, they were superior navigatiors who discovered that Planetos is round by sailing eastwards away from Yi Ti and Asshai, and thus accounting for their relics in places in the far west of Westeros, but not so much on its eastern side. May I now be a citizen of the tinfoil empire?

[Cookiesbane]

Hmmmm, very well researche topic (thank you for the quotes and bits, that would help).

first there are other topics that talk about the black stones : This one , or that one for example.

Ok now on your conclusion, I don't think you can say "Asshai seems to be the capital and probably the place of origin of whoever built the black stones. This is based on the fact that Asshai is the most expansive structure in all the black stone locations and certainly bigger than the other known city of such nature, Yeen."

Because yes, Asshaï can be said to be "bigger than it's inhabitants", but Yeen is described as "Cyclopean ruins" (and it's another wink at Cthulhu).

Also argument from history : Yeen is in Sothoryos, the "somehow" equivalent of Africa, and humanity came from Africa (that's that). Furthermore, as it is placed on a Delta, we may think about ancient Egypt, BUT, as it was "abandoned", and it's supposed to be a "civilisation that brought things to Valyria", it makes me think of Carthage and the Etruscans (who were supposed to be the ancestors, and then enemies of the roman empire).

Ok now = connection to sea: when are the deep Ones and the kraken coming ? Is Cthulhu the vilain/drowned god ?

Now that's an interesting take on this, let's see where you're going from there.

Thanks! I was actually following the second discussion ( I think I commented at some point too). My post is pretty much an expansion on what was discussed there so credit should to that topic too.I had'nt seen the first link but I will read carefully.

Concerning Sothoryos, I must admit that I missed the whole "Cyclopean" thing. I focused mostly on Asshai because of its role as "magic town" of the world. We have heard more things about Asshai than Yeen so I assumed that Asshai is more important. I know how this sounds but everything is very speculative anyways.

[Cookiesbane]

I notice you did not include the cottage sized basalt stones scattered about at Moat Cailin. They are said to have been a curtain wall but now they are littering the swamp. It seems the Hammer of the Waters knocked down the basalt stone structure which puts it's origins way back. It may have been men but it may have been there when the first First Men showed their faces and we know the giants and Singers don't work stone.

I chose not to included because if I remember well Catelyn states that they are made of basalt. But yes, it is quite so it might be a added to the list.

[Cookiesbane]

I like it. In addition, I would also surmise that on top of being a sea-centric culture, they were superior navigatiors who discovered that Planetos is round by sailing eastwards away from Yi Ti and Asshai, and thus accounting for their relics in places in the far west of Westeros, but not so much on its eastern side. May I now be a citizen of the tinfoil empire?

You'll receive your naturalization papers on the mail .

[Durran Durrandon]

Speculatively, Sothros could have many ruins besides Yeen, deep in the jungles. The same goes for the Grey Waste, buried in the sands. It would make sense for a large powerful civilization to have more sites.

I tend to think we are looking at two different technology sets from two different different civilizations. The fused black stone of Five Forts being built with fire magic, and the oily black stones, built with some other magic.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

My take:

it is now clear that there were an Ancient dragon riding people, from the Shadow that "tamed" dragons ( and created them, if barth is right, from interbreeding wyverns and wyrms).. they had presence in Sothoros (otherwise where they would have found wyverns?), and a city Yeen... They are the reason why there were dragons all around the world, before Valyria raised.

They used dragons to create these pre-valyrian black fused stones..in the same manner than Valyrians would later do so, by melting stone and shaping it..

it remains unanswered why the pre-valyrian black has that greasy feel to it (magic leaking out?). anyways, for some reason seasons went off balance, probably due to some big (and failed) magical experiment in what is now called the Shadow (btw in Yi Ti section the Long Night is related to a black stone from space, it could be a hint to the people responsable). the effects are still felt down there, and are the reason for the unnatural characteristics of Asshai.. the Ash seems like post magic radioactive river..in a similar manner than Valyria is affected after the doom.

The Long Night wiped dragons all around the world, save in Volcanic refugees like Dragonstone and the Fourteen fires.

Anyways, at some point the Ancient Asshaí people vanished, but not before they taught Valyrians how to tame dragons...probably some Fire and Blood Magic. mixing blood? did they interbreed?.. Valyrians have "dragon blood" after that. This blood is the reason why they give birth to so many monstrosities.

All that remains from Ancient Asshaí are these greasy black stones around the world. In some places, close to the sea, they were used to carve stone idols of Deep ones (isle of toads, seastone chair, thousand islands), by peoples that were terrified of merlings (another nonhuman race of that time)

Did Merlings fight Ancient Asshaií? They did take out Mazemakers from Lorath (another non-human race of that time).. Maybe Ancient asshai and Mazemakers were allies in the battle isle, and built together the Hightower, against the Deep Ones (this kind of reconciles the fact that it seems built by two different peoples, one with dragons and the other prone to build mazes)

[Cookiesbane]

Hmm... Doesn't it get somewhat over complicated if there more than one ancient "forgotten" race? That's mostly why I believe it is one people.

[Durran Durrandon]

I think it has to be two groups. The oily black stones group and the pre-Valyrian dragon riders who made the fused black stone.

[Cookiesbane]

I think it has to be two groups. The oily black stones group and the pre-Valyrian dragon riders who made the fused black stone.

Maybe two factions of the same civilization created by a schism on whether to use dragons or not?

[Durran Durrandon]

So my basis is that the description of the stones seems to fall into two categories. I feel like the oilblack stones are more sinister, associated with the Deep One in someway, more Cthulu mythos oriented. The oily black stones radiate death to plants and seem to make the people of Ashai infertile. None of that seems to be infcluded with the description of the Five Forts which is made of the fused black stones and seems to fit with the pre-Valyrian fire/dragon magic types. I feel like there might be something more truly alien or demonic about the oily black stones. This is all just inference based on scant evidence.

[Cookiesbane]

So my basis is that the description of the stones seems to fall into two categories. I feel like the oilblack stones are more sinister, associated with the Deep One in someway, more Cthulu mythos oriented. The oily black stones radiate death to plants and seem to make the people of Ashai infertile. None of that seems to be infcluded with the description of the Five Forts which is made of the fused black stones and seems to fit with the pre-Valyrian fire/dragon magic types. I feel like there might be something more truly alien or demonic about the oily black stones. This is all just inference based on scant evidence.

I've been thinking more about this the last two days. It like the greasy black stones are a corruption of the fused ones. The fused stone locations have acted as bases of newer structures and towns while the greasy stone locations seems barren and poisonous. Asshai seems to be somewhat a balance. It cannot support native life but it doesn't kill everything that resides there.

[Berkilak]

I disagree that there's something more to the Deep Ones than a Lovecraft/Howard reference. Particularly when you want to allude to a dark, mysterious and incomprehensible race that existed before your own story, it has become a sort of respectful shorthand to put nods such as these into your narrative. It's just a bit of world building that pays respect to one of the most influential writers in the genre.

[Cookiesbane]

I disagree that there's something more to the Deep Ones than a Lovecraft/Howard reference. Particularly when you want to allude to a dark, mysterious and incomprehensible race that existed before your own story, it has become a sort of respectful shorthand to put nods such as these into your narrative. It's just a bit of world building that pays respect to one of the most influential writers in the genre.

I am not denying that it might just be a tribute. But it's too big to be just a tribute and its related to important places for the story (Oldtown, Asshai and Seastone Chair) so I believe it is worth looking into and it might actually be tied to the story up to a certain level (I also need something to do until TWOW is released).

[Dorian Martell]

*post*

Great post. and cudos for your many text references from the books

[Cookiesbane]

Great post. and cudos for your many text references from the books

Thank you, sir!