Stopping incestuous marriage was political suicide

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Looking at what causes trouble for Targaryens, marrying outside the family (post-Faith conflict) has caused major havoc (DoD etc). This makes sense: it creates the potential for political games in the marriage matches of princess and princesses. This can then lead to conflict and war. Conversely, if it's accepted that Targs only marry each other, then the scope for families to manipulate their own rise to prominence and maybe even having a claim to the throne (hello Baratheons) is more limited. So it could actually lead to more stability for the realm.

I thought of this when considering what marriages and marriage pacts have done to the Targs over the last 120 years.

It starts with the Dornish Marriage (Daeron II) - you can see in his sons' marriages that the agreement with Dorne had further consequences. Daeron's fourth son Maekar married a Dornish woman (a Dayne), which the Dornish may have requested on top of getting a Dornish queen. To counterbalance that, the Prince of Dragonstone goes to a marcher lady (Jenna Dondarrion) - trying to ensure that the king who follows the half-Dornish Baelor Breakspear would himself be half-marcher (the two being centuries-long rivals) - as Valarr and Matarys both are. The other brides of Daeron's sons are another Stormlands woman (Penrose) to cement the counterweight to Dornish influence, and an Arryn (presumably for good measure; no one minds an Arryn).

But we all know how unpopular the Dornish Marriage was (and we can see that Maekar's wife Dyana Dayne might not have been a hit) - and then of course lots of people might have been upset that Baelor Breakspear married Jenna Dondarrion. None of this would be so if Targ-Targ marriages could have been arranged.

Unfortunately, Aegon V, Maekar's son, clearly thinks he's learnt a valuable lesson about the power of smart marriages, by looking at his parents', his uncles' and his grandfather's marriages - each a political choice in stark contrast to family tradition. Maybe he thinks that if he picks just the right families, he can avoid any blowback. So Aegon and Black Betha try to arrange marriages for their children, which all end how they end. Enter - the Baratheon claim.

Again, consider the brother-sister marriage alternative. When Jaehaerys married his sister, it caused a problem because their marriage pacts were breached. But there was no tension in their children's generation, because they married their son to their daughter. Which is better for the realm?

Then we get to Aerys II, who would have known in full detail his grandparents' plans and how the marriage game should have been played, and can be played.

Then comes the War of the Ninepenny Kings, the great meeting point where so many things seem to begin. All of the big characters cross paths, and it's formative for many of them. But really, the intricate marriage plans that Aerys II ultimately recognised in what Rickard Stark & Co ended up doing (the fabled southron ambitions, from a Northwoman's point of view) were just a continuation/recycling of Aegon V and Black Betha's plans to solidify Targaryen rule through marriage pacts - the seed for which strategy was sown by the Dornish Marriage.

Except of course Aerys understood that the goal was now to create an alternative to the Targaryens - which is funny, because that had never existed before; the scope for playing games of thrones at this level was created by the Conquest (which unified the realm and created a literal throne to fight over), but then limited by incestuous marriages. Shame he was mad, coz he was not crazy.

[The silver dragon]

insect does stop dynastic infighting between the family.

and it does prevent powerful lord's trying to press either their claim or their relative's.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It starts with the Dornish Marriage (Daeron II) - you can see in his sons' marriages that the agreement with Dorne had further consequences. Daeron's fourth son Maekar married a Dornish woman (a Dayne), which the Dornish may have requested on top of getting a Dornish queen. To counterbalance that, the Prince of Dragonstone goes to a marcher lady (Jenna Dondarrion) - trying to ensure that the king who follows the half-Dornish Baelor Breakspear would himself be half-marcher (the two being centuries-long rivals) - as Valarr and Matarys both are. The other brides of Daeron's sons are another Stormlands woman (Penrose) to cement the counterweight to Dornish influence, and an Arryn (presumably for good measure; no one minds an Arryn).

But we all know how unpopular the Dornish Marriage was (and we can see that Maekar's wife Dyana Dayne might not have been a hit) - and then of course lots of people might have been upset that Baelor Breakspear married Jenna Dondarrion. None of this would be so if Targ-Targ marriages could have been arranged.

OK, but who are these Targaryen women that the brothers could have married? You can only arrange incestuous marriages when you have related women to choose from.

[The silver dragon]

OK, but who are these Targaryen women that the brothers could have married? You can only arrange incestuous marriages when you have related women to choose from.

a velaryon? a cetigar? both won't cause much political turmoil. a bastard of aegon (the asshole)? if one is the right age.

[Lord Varys]

Lord_Peppsi_Cupps,

you have a point there, and actually I'd number Aenys I among the most influential and important Targaryen kings because his decision to marry his daughter Rhaena to his son Aegon set the Targaryen marriage policy for the next three centuries.

Thinking about that, has anyone ever thought that the High Septon's opposition against the Rhaena-Maegor was not actual so much against incest but in favor of a Hightower-Targaryen match? We know from the Stark family tree that uncle-niece marriages were common there, and Maegor was not Rhaena's full uncle (he was Visenya's sons, whereas Rhaena was Rhaenys' granddaughter). They were not related closely enough to make such a big deal out of the whole thing - unless the High Septon wanted that his Hightower-in-laws married into House Targaryen... I'd not be surprised one bit if the original plan was to marry Ceryse to Aenys instead of Maegar - she would have been much closer in age to Aegon's elder son.

We also see what happens when powerful great houses like the Lannisters or Tyrells marry into the royal family. Unless the power passes to an grown-up king who is in control of his faculties there is a very good chance that the in-laws try to take over the dynasty. During the reign of Viserys I the Hightowers tried to pull off the same thing - finally, after Aegon I rejected a Hightower bride, and Maegor-Ceryse led nowhere - but were only partially successful, most likely because the Targaryens still had dragons (and the Velaryons, too).

We also see that the earlier Targaryens were smart enough to take only loyal friends (Velaryons, Celtigars, Stokeworths, Baratheons) or only Westerosi houses who were mostly/totally dependent on their good will (Tullys) into their inner circle, not the former royal houses of Westeros (like Lannister, Stark, Arryn). There is clearly a reason for this.

As to Daeron II:

I think that Daeron II did not necessarily broker political matches for all his sons. Yandel tells us that only Egg began to question the whole incest thing (or had developed a distaste for it). If Daeron II had consciously decided to broker non-relative/incest marriages for his sons, I doubt that Maekar had betrothed Daella to Egg or Rhaegel/Alys had married Aelor and Aelora to each other. The incest then also continues during Maekar's reign, when Aerion marries his cousin Daenora.

Aelinor Penrose is confirmed to be a cousin of Aerys I, suggesting that she has some Targaryen blood, most likely through one of the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen by Garmund Hightower. Ronnel Penrose, Elaena Targaryen's second husband who most likely was closely related to Aelinor Penrose, would then also have had Targaryen blood (Daeron II chose this husband for Elaena).

Considering that Yandel claims that the Egg-Betha match would have met opposition had Egg not been at the very of the line of succession, it seems very unlikely that the Realm was fine with the marriage of the Prince of Dragonstone (Baelor Breakspear) and his younger brother Aerys to a Dondarrion and a Penrose. The Blackwoods are a very old and former royal house of First Man descent, whereas the Dondarrions were founded by some lowborn messenger according to their own legends. Thus a Dondarrion would clearly not be a fit consort for a King on the Iron Throne. That is, unless we assume Daeron II actually continued the 'incest marriage policy' of his house the only way he could - by marrying his sons to the closest kin they had.

Of course, he was also following a political program there. He could have married Baelor to his own sister, Daenerys, but he intended to marry her to Prince Maron. And considering the fact that Rhaena and Garmund had six daughters, I doubt that the Penroses (and/or Dondarrions) got the elder daughters - which would mean that Daeron could possibly have picked picked Targaryen cousins through the female line born into more nobler families. But he chose to pick two Stormlander women for his two elder sons to get the support of their families for his Dornish policies.

The fact that no son of Daeron II married a Velaryon could be rather simple. Perhaps Alyn and Baela had no female descendants in the right age for Daeron's sons to marry. We know that those things happen. If Steffon Baratheon or Lucerys Velaryon had had daughters, the search for a bride for Rhaegar would have been over pretty soon. The fact that Rhaegar was only betrothed rather late may also be a very strong sign that Aerys hoped for a very long time he could still marry him to a sister. It seems that this dream died only after the birth of Viserys.

As to Dyanna: She, too, could have had some Targaryen blood (and Alys Arryn, too, by the way, if we assume that a Lord Arryn married a speculative daughter of Alyn Velaryon by Baela - which would be entirely likely). If Aegon the Unworthy could make a Dornish hostage his mistress, then one of Rhaena's daughters (or Alyn's sons/daughters) could also have been married to a Dayne - either during the hostage thing, or following Baelor's peace treaty with Sunspear.

But I wholeheartedly admit that a Targaryen ancestry is less likely in Alys Arryn and Dyanna Dayne than in Jena Dondarrion and Aelinor Penrose (in the latter case such an ancestry is effectively confirmed).

The fact that George gave us the precise information that Rhaena and Garmund had six daughters instead of the unspecified 'issue' we get for Alyn-Baela and Maron-Daenerys strongly suggests that he knows where (at least some of) those daughters ended up...

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Snip

Thanks for that thoughtful reply! To clarify my thoughts on the Dornish Marriage: I don't think that Daeron II had anything against incest - as you say, Aegon V is the first one that we know of to come out and say that. But the Dornish marriage alliances kicked off the use of Targ princes and princesses' marriages as tools for much more actively coalescing Targ influence. It was like a light went off in their heads that this is a whole new way to cement their power (really, their first major policy change since they lost their dragons).

Aegon V built on that and used that strategy (tried to), while also being further motivated by his distaste for incest.

As to what to do when there's no sisters, as has happened, well there's nothing you can do, you marry out. Although you could always just send daughters to the Faith, and younger sons to the Faith or the Citadel.

If you have too many kids, do what Jaehaerys and Alysanne did: your eldest few are your "breeding pairs" and the rest go to the Faith or the Citadel. Then you have some heirs and spares who all marry each other so the lines converge, and you keep going.

It's interesting to think of that as one of the sources of the stability certain Targs brought. They provided the benefits of having a centralised powerbase (the Iron Throne) and all that goes with it (uniform laws, trade opportunities), while avoiding one major potential source of instability: competing claims for the Iron Throne. Assuming they could manage them as discussed above, which they in the end couldn't.

[Lord Varys]

The Targaryens knew and used the 'political marriage' thing before Daeron II, but it mostly was part of the whole incest thing. Maegor-Ceryse clearly was a political match to placate the Faith and bind the Hightowers to the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra-Laenor was another political match, although within in the incest sphere (they were not into each other, and had to marry each other only to close a rift their parents had created). The thoughts about marrying Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne also show that political matches were no thought about. Aegon III and Jaehaera are another example (as well as the other matches proposed during the Dance - a Targaryen girl for the Starks, a Baratheon for Aemond/Aegon II).

And I'm also inclined to believe that the Targaryens have married into certain Westerosi families prior to the Conquest (although most likely only spare daughters or more distant kin of the main line), namely into Houses Darklyn and Massey (as Gormon Massey and Steffon Darklyn thought they could become dragonriders during the Dance).

But overall the whole incest thing did indeed keep the ambitions of other powerful houses at bay. But I don't think Daeron II was the first to realize what a great political tool marriages could be. I think he favored Targaryen-blooded brides from certain houses to help his political agenda, but did not choose brides without any Targaryen blood (i.e. just for political convenience).

Speaking about that, I'd have preferred it if George had given us another male Targaryen branch founded by a younger son of Jaehaerys I (or one of his siblings) during the Dance, playing both sides against each other etc. That would have added even more flavor. The Targaryen lineage would have been much more interesting if more children of Jaehaerys I had descendants of their own, and if Aenys/Maegor and Jaehaerys/Alysanne had had more siblings founding their own branches (although the mystery of Rhaena, Aerea, and Rhalla still remains).

[naseridrl]

I never understood why they didn't marry outside of Westeros more Larra seems about all there was. It seems like the best place to look to me.

[Adelin]

I never understood why they didn't marry outside of Westeros more Larra seems about all there was. It seems like the best place to look to me.

Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to look for brides in Essos for Prince Rhaegar.

[Annara Snow]

Yes, the incestuous marriage between Aegon the Unworthy and Naerys really proved to be super-beneficial to the realm, as was Aegon's rule and behavior in general. While non-incestuous marriages like Daeron II's marriage to Mariah were just disastrous, just like Daeron the Good was a bad king and eventually making Dorne part of the kingdom without spilling any blood was "political suicide".

Wait, what?

[The silver dragon]

Yes, the incestuous marriage between Aegon the Unworthy and Naerys really proved to be super-beneficial to the realm, as was Aegon's rule and behavior in general. While non-incestuous marriages like Daeron II's marriage to Mariah were just disastrous, just like Daeron the Good was a bad king and eventually making Dorne part of the kingdom without spilling any blood was "political suicide".

Wait, what?

1.) aegon was an asshole. he would have been a evil womanizer regardless of who he married.

2.)one word, Blackfyre rebellion. one must ask himself if dorne (a small desert region) was worth so much.

[Lord Varys]

Annara,

the Dornish marriages of Daeron and Daenerys were exceptions in the whole political marriages thing, as would have been marriages with royal families from abroad. Political marriages with your own subjects are another matter entirely, as such things tend to give potentially too much power and influence in the hand of the 'up-jumped in-laws'.

Aegon and Naerys was an unhappy marriage for Naerys, but essentially not a problem for the dynasty.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

As above.

More to the point, it's a bit naive to consider Daeron II's marriage an example of how things should be done. The Targaryens got to complete their conquest of Westeros by including Dorne in their realm, but the price in discontent (and obviously how that fed into the Blackfyre Rebellion) was high - and the realm paid it, not just the Targs themselves.

Of course, a legitimised Daemon Blackfyre was always going to be a problem - but that goes to what I was saying a few posts above: you can't have too many Targs around. That's why Jaehaerys and Alysanne's eldest children married each other and the rest were off to the Faith or the Citadel.

[Annara Snow]

1.) aegon was an asshole. he would have been a evil womanizer regardless of who he married.

2.)one word, Blackfyre rebellion. one must ask himself if dorne (a small desert region) was worth so much.

What, now the Blackfyre rebellion is the fault of Dorne and inclusion of Dorne in the kingdom? Or even better, it's Daeron's marriage to Mariah that's to blame? That's a new one.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

What, now the Blackfyre rebellion is the fault of Dorne and inclusion of Dorne in the kingdom? That's a new one.

Dornish influence at court is mentioned as a major contributing factor to the rebellion, essentially whenever the rebellion is discussed in detail.

It's also noted that a lot of the Reach lords and Stormlords (particularly the marchers) who traditional fought against Dorne were now bitter that they're having to compete with the Dornish for influence in King's Landing. The king who married a Dornish woman and brought the Dornish to court becomes the chief target of that discontent.

Even Baelor Breakspear's "Dornish" looks were noted as iffy, as compared to Daemon's obvious Targaryen features.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dornish influence at court is mentioned as a major contributing factor to the rebellion, essentially whenever the rebellion is discussed in detail.

It's also noted that a lot of the Reach lords and Stormlords (particularly the marchers) who traditional fought against Dorne were now bitter that they're having to compete with the Dornish for influence in King's Landing. The king who married a Dornish woman and brought the Dornish to court becomes the chief target of that discontent.

Even Baelor Breakspear's "Dornish" looks were noted as iffy, as compared to Daemon's obvious Targaryen features.

So, they shouldn't have finally unified the Realms because the rest were racists?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

So, they shouldn't have finally unified the Realms because the rest were racists?

Yes the pale-skinned, silver-haired, purple-eyed Targaryens who for centuries only married each other to keep their blood pure are the champions of racial tolerance.

Jokes aside, "finally unified the realms" suggests that it was a natural and proper occurrence, which of course is a hugely one-sided view. There are benefits in unifying Westeros, in terms of trade and security, but those benefits were all already captured before Dorne joined (Dorne being so small and poor).

The Targaryens were actively disturbing the status quo (in which Dorne was independent) - really, apparently motivated only by their family's need to rule all of Westeros. So let's not turn this into a noble quest that was opposed by the bigoted Westerosi for no other reason but their bigotry ;)

There is almost no evidence (any at all?) that there was a burning desire for the people in either Dorne or the rest of Westeros to live in the same realm.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1.) aegon was an asshole. he would have been a evil womanizer regardless of who he married.

2.)one word, Blackfyre rebellion. one must ask himself if dorne (a small desert region) was worth so much.

So, if Daeron had not married a Dornish woman, Daemon, Bittersteel and Fireball would have been happy and there would be no rebellion? Right.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not the first time the Targaryens got to marry someone who wasn't a Targaryen. Daemon Blackfyre was looking for any excuse to cause a war, and of course, the Dornish alliance and Daenerys' marriage provided a good one.

Was an alliance needed? Well, Dorne was always that one stain in the good score of the Targaryens, as they were unable to conquer them. And years later, it was the Targaryens who attacked them and broke the the peace they blackmailed out of Aegon I due to Daeron the Callow and Aegon the Fucker. So, not only a Martell married into the Targaryens, a Targaryen princess was sent to marry into House Martell. It was a fair deal that put them almost as equals, as they even kept their titles. I'm sure many would see this as dangerous, but oh... the only were, apparently, Daemon and his entourage :dunno:

This part is from the wiki, but I think it summarizes it very well:

"In truth the war broke out because the seeds had found fertile ground because of Aegon the Unworthy. Aegon hated the Dornish and many Lords and Houses who spent centuries at war with the Dorne longed for the return of those days. Many great warriors looked on dismay on a realm no longer at war and did not like a peaceful, scholarly king who filled the court with learned men, Septons, Dornish and women. They looked at Daemon and saw a Warrior. Many lords and knights with grievances against the Iron Throne soon sought Daemon out".

Look at how Cersei is mad that the Tyrells are placing Tyrell men in court and Margaery has a lot of influence in KL. While those men are capable, those are not the men she would want, and she's seeing conspiracies where there are none. It's the same, except Daemon wasn't a paranoid but simply wanted to cause a war. If Daeron had married some Arryn or Tyrell girl, Daemon would be talking about the "Tyrell/Arryn influence in court" being dangerous as well.

[The silver dragon]

So, if Daeron had not married a Dornish woman, Daemon, Bittersteel and Fireball would have been happy and there would be no rebellion? Right.

1.) i don't know. Daemon did not seem that determined to take the throne until bitter-steel and fireball convinced him.

2.) well in bitter-steel case you have to either kill blood-raven or kill bitter-steel. as they cannot coexist, one of the main factor's in bitter-steel siding with daemon was blood-raven and daeron close relationship. "a brother i loved".

3.) make fireball a kings guard. as refusal of that was what made him plot treason.

(as a general rule you should not piss off good warriors, especially hotheaded ones.)

but they would find a lot less support. perhaps making them reconsider committing treason.