Stopping incestuous marriage was political suicide

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Was there any other limit on the number of dragons a dragonlord family could ride? Like the size of their estates and the number of dragons they could support?

Also: with 40 families, it would be hard to rule Valyria without being able to make alliances outside the family.

Well we know that dragons don't need to hunt for themselves and can be stabled like horses ("Syrax hadn't hunted in years"), so you wouldn't need huge estates within or very near the city of Valyria itself in order to raise lots of dragons. You just need to be able to maintain a supply network to get lots of fodder to Valyria, but they were a very advanced civilisation. That said, given how fast dragons fly, you also wouldn't need to keep them all within the city or at one place - they'd be able to swoop on Valyria pretty quickly from most anywhere on the peninsula.

There may have been other limits on the number of dragons, perhaps imposed by other dragonlord families. For example, if a powerful family stumbles, its rivals might pressure it into accepting unfavourable terms (like limiting the number of dragons they can have for a period). Kind of how Pentos isn't allowed to have an army.

2-3 dragons was clearly not enough, though. When Aegon lost Meraxes and Rhaenys, it was a disaster and he ended up folding - compare with Garin who managed to kill 2 dragons out of 3, and got avenged by 300. And Maegor/Visenya had serious trouble against the Faith rebellion.

And there is Essos - Braavos and Volantis, etc.

They don't need just 2-3 dragons, they can have a few more riderless dragons at any time, for just in case they're needed. It's heavily hinted that Aegon folded because of what was in the "Dornish Letter", rather than just because he lost Meraxes and Rhaenys (although it was clearly a blow). He still had two huge dragons, and no one else had any.

Maegor's problem wasn't lack of firepower - Balerion had more than enough. The problem was that dragonflame is a nuclear option, which is tricky in the context of your own subjects rebelling against you apparently. Having more dragons wouldn't have reduced his problems, because Balerion could have scorched all those problems to the ground himself if that was a solution.

And Garin had water wizards. One of the reasons that the dragons were so effective in Westeros is that essentially all magic has been expelled from it: the CotF are thought long gone; there are no shadowbinders at any significant scale, or other magical practitioners; even the predominant religions (Old Gods and the Faith) do not include any spells / magical rituals. It's as if someone has been meticulously supporting the de-magification of Westeros (cough, the Citadel, cough). There was nothing comparable to a water wizard (or any of the range of magical practitioners across Essos) that the Westerosi could throw at a dragon.

And do Faith vows even mention dragons? Of course, they do mention fighting, and marriage.

Neither Citadel nor Faith existed in Westeros.

I meant that a son given to the Citadel would break his vows to the Citadel in exchange for becoming a dragonrider; we hear again and again how desperate some Targs are to get dragons, so it's probably understood that there's no vow they wouldn't break (to the Citadel, the Faith, anyone) to get that. More importantly, we're talking about princes and princesses of the blood - the Iron Throne can release them from any vow, and negotiate with the Faith to do the same.

Do you mean that the Citadel and the Faith didn't exist in Valyria, as options? They've existed in Westeros for thousands of years (it seems that the Citadel, set up by the early Hightowers, predates the Faith, which only arrived with the Andals).

There was a very obvious test chance with Rhaenys and Viserys.

Absolutely, but I think they failed it. Aemon (Rhaenys' father) should have been married to his sister Daella (Aemma Arryn's mother), so that neither Arryns nor Baratheons were ever brought into the mix. Such alliances should only be allowed if an "heir and a spare" arrangement with sibling marriages is already in place. Taking a non-Targ wife is crazy for Aemon, who was going to be king. But each of Rhaenys and Aemma Arryn had 1 Targ parent, and while Rhaenys is a confirmed dragonrider and Aemma most likely was not, in terms of closeness they are on par. We don't know exactly how the marriages arrangements were made.

[Lord Varys]

Well, then, since that's the thread here, I'll give my analysis of the marriages of House Targaryen in here. I consider all incestuous marriages as political marriages since it was Valyrian/Targaryen policy to marry within the family. The few exemptions will be noted and discussed.

On Dragonstone:

1. I expect Aenar Targaryen to be married to at least one sister, who was the mother of Daenys and Gaemon, making them full siblings. Aenar apparently had children from his other wives, too, which we don't know anything about (and Daenys and Gaemon may also have had younger full-siblings we don't know anything about).

2. I expect that Aegon and Elaena's sons and grandsons were also married to close kin, following the Targaryen policy, but apparently not to sisters, as no sisters are mentioned to them. I expect to have either cousin-wives through a male Targaryen cadet branch founded by by a brother, son, or male cousin of Aenar, or through the female branch (then most likely named Velaryon).

3. Aerion's marriage to Valaena Velaryon was political, as she was apparently the closest female relative of the right age Aerion had. If Alyssa Velaryon had a Targaryen mother - which is not yet explicitly confirmed - her mother could have been the daughter of younger brother or uncle of Aerion.

4. Aegon's marriage to Visenya was political in nature, his marriage to Rhaenys was a marriage of passion (at least on his part). Aegon declined political marriages to Argella Durrandon, Sharra Arryn, and Lord Manfred Hightower's youngest daughter.

In Westeros:

1. Aenys' marriage to Alyssa Velaryon was political in nature, continuing the incest policy the only way possible. The fact that Alyssa's grandfather, Daemon Velaryon, had fought and died for Aegon during the Conquest may also have played a role there, but I guess the ties between the Velaryons and the Targaryens were strong enough anyway, and nothing suggests that Alyssa was chosen as a means to placate the Velaryons - especially since both Aenys and Alyssa were born in 7 AC, quite some time after the Conquest.

2. Maegor's marriage to Ceryse Hightower instead of Aenys' daughter Rhaena seems to be only caused by the High Septon's staunch opposition against incest marriage, but I'd say that it was as much motivated by Hightower ambition as the Faith's view on incest. Lord Manfred had already tried to make his youngest daughter Aegon's third wife, and the High Septon of that time was kin-in-marriage to Lord Martyn Hightower, Ceryse's father. We could also speculate that, if the uncle-niece-marriages Stark marriages during the Targaryen era (known from the Stark family tree) were not uncommon back before the Conquest, it may be possible that uncle-niece-marriages were actually not completely uncommon among the Andals in the South (although that's not confirmed). If that's the case, then the High Septon may only have opposed the Rhaena-Maegor-match as strongly as he did to force Aegon to marry his niece Ceryse to his younger son. I'm also inclined to believe that the Hightowers and the High Septon originally wanted to marry Ceryse to Prince Aenys - whether they made such an attempt, or whether the Targaryens cut any such efforts short by simply announcing Aenys betrothal and soon-to-follow marriage to Lady Alyssa without asking anyone outside their closest confidants for potential brides for Aegon's eldest son.

3. Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway was, I think, motivated as much by passion (Maegor most likely was into her, rather than some other woman), as by ambition (on the Harroway side, as Lucas Harroway clearly seemed to have hoped to advance his family by this whole thing). Maegor felt a need to have an heir of his own, making the marriage political as it was supposed to stabilize the dynasty, but there was no reason to make such a bond with House Harroway instead of some other Westerosi house.

4. Prince Aegon's marriage to Princess Rhaena was clearly a political incestuous marriage. We know that it was Aenys' decision to go through with it, but I guess Queen Alyssa was also supporting this issue, perhaps even suggesting it.

5. Maegor's marriage to Tyanna seems to have grown out of love affair he and Alys began with Tyanna in Pentos. Maegor was clearly into her, and Alys, too, I think, at least for a time, and since Maegor had already two wives, there was no reason to not take a third. Tyanna seems to have been driven by ambition, too, as well as perhaps by a love for Maegor (we don't know anything about her alleged feelings). I doubt the Tyanna marriage had any political value, as Tyanna was supposed to be a bastard by birth.

6. Maegor's marriage to the black brides was mostly a desperate attempt to father an heir. The marriage to Rhaena had a political value, strengthening his claim to the Iron Throne and providing him with an heir in Rhaena's daughter Aerea. Elinor Costayne and Jeyne Westerling were essentially nothing but pawns/means for him to finally father a child.

7. Jaehaerys' marriage to Alysanne was a political incest marriage with a strong vibe that there was actually a lot of attraction/love going on between Jaehaerys and Alysanne, explaining why Alyssa decided to marry these two to each other instead to marry Jaehaerys to either Aerea or Rhalla.

8. Alyssa Velaryon's marriage to Lord Robar Baratheon was apparently a love match. I imagine Alyssa and Robar fell in love during the reign of Maegor and combined efforts to bring him down and seat Jaehaerys on the Iron Throne. Alyssa was 43 years old in 50 AC, and not exactly in need of a new husband, making it very likely that these two were really drawn to each other.

9. Prince Aemon's marriage to Jocelyn Baratheon, Alyssa's daughter by Lord Robar, strongly suggests that this match was arranged by Queen Alyssa herself in her later years, giving a strong hint about the amount of power she had behind the scenes (another is the fact that Jaehaerys' eldest daughter was named after her grandmother). We don't know if Aemon and Jocelyn grew up together at court and were drawn to each other, but we cannot rule that out.

The fact that Alyssa Velaryon must have been involved in the Aemon-Jocelyn match is also hinted at by the fact that Alyssa Targaryen was older than both Aemon and Baelon. Since we know that Valyrian custom dictated that a son marry his elder sister, somebody must have argued in favor of a Aemon-Jocelyn rather than a Aemon-Alyssa match. And I'm sure that Aemon clearly was always considered to be Jaehaerys' heir - at least after Prince Aegon died - suggesting that Alyssa Velaryon wanted that her daughter by Robar became the next queen, and continued the royal line.

10. Baelon's marriage to Alyssa is a political incest marriage - and love may been involved as well, as it is possible that Alyssa and Baelon were drawn to each rather than Aemon and Alyssa. I'm not sure if it was clear by the point this marriage was made that Baelon and Alyssa's children may become rivals of Aemon's children, but the point clearly was to ensure the continuation of the dynasty. Maegor's terror regime really cut down the Targaryen family tree to one male dragon.

11. Daella's marriage to Lord Rodrik Arryn is clearly a political match. No idea what the reasoning was for this, but the fact that House Arryn suffered dearly from rebellions during the reign of Aenys may have played a role in that decision. The fact that the Arryns are one of the oldest and most noble Andal lineages could also have played a role in that decision. The Lannisters and Starks are old as well, but nothing suggests that the Targaryens were particularly close to either of those houses in the first century after the Conquest (in fact, we know that they had various troubles with the Starks).

12. Viserra's betrothal to Lord Manderly would also have been political, perhaps an attempt on Jaehaerys' side to bind a powerful house in the North stronger to the Iron Throne and ensure that the Starks would continue to behave.

13. Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys would have been political again, binding a very prominent and powerful as future Prince Consort to Aemon's heir. Depending on whether Corlys' mother was Rhaena Targaryen, this could also have been an attempt to unite Jaehaerys' line with Rhaena's line, trying to prevent a struggle for succession. Considering the timing of the whole thing I'm pretty sure there was a good reason to marry Rhaenys to Corlys rather than to Viserys, and I'm pretty sure Rhaenys was married to Corlys while Aemon was still alive, and considered by everyone to be second in line to the Iron Throne. Jaehaerys was only faced with a problematic succession after Aemon's untimely death, as he had to pick another successor - had Aemon ascended to the Iron Throne, his eldest (or only) daughter clearly would have been his heir, and Rhaenys' heir Laenor could have been married to Viserys' daughter Rhaenyra to reunite the two branches yet again (but with Laenor as the future king rather than Rhaenyra the future queen).

14. Viserys' marriage to Aemma Arryn also seems to have been a political match, to ensure that the then-lesser branch of House Targaryen would continue to have a strong Valyrian bloodline. Viserys did not have any sisters nor any cousins besides Aemma and Rhaenys (who most likely was already betrothed to Corlys by then), meaning that the incest policy dictated that they marry each other. The fact that Aemma was Daella's only child would also have been convenient for House Targaryen, as Aemma's marriage to Viserys ensured that later Arryn generations would not have a claim to the Iron Throne.

15. Daemon's marriage to Rhea Royce was a convenient political match for a younger son, making him the husband (and future lord consort) to the heiress of Runestone. Jaehaerys/Baelon's intention in brokering the match could also have been to rid themselves and the court of Daemon, as both his father and grandfather should have realized by then that he could become an annoyance rather than a help. It seems clear that Daemon only returned to KL permanently after Viserys ascended the Iron Throne.

16. Viserys' marriage to Alicent Hightower clearly was a marriage for passion, at least on Viserys' side. For the Hightowers it was the end of the machinations to make one of their daughters the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

17. Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor Velaryon was a political incest match, which was supposed to reunite the lines of Prince Aemon and Prince Baelon.

18. Daemon's marriage to Laena Velaryon was perhaps as much a political match as a love match, as there are hints that Daemon was really into Laena, and happy with her and his children by her. The betrothals between Rhaenyra's sons and Daemon's daughters were political matches to make closer ties between Driftmark and Dragonstone.

19. Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon was clearly a love match, possibly on both sides, as well as political match to build a united front against Alicent's party.

20. Aegon's marriage to Helaena was a political match to establish Aegon the Elder - whose mother did not have any Targaryen blood - as a 'true incestuous Targaryen', countering Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon. I think this match was pitched and put through by Alicent/Otto.

21. Aegon III marriage to Jaehaera was clearly a political match, to unite the two Targaryen branches following the end of the Dance.

22. We have no clue about Rhaena Targaryen's marriages to Corwyn Corbray and Garmund Hightower. The former could be a love match, as Rhaena spend some time in the Vale during the Dance. The Garmund match seems to be mostly a political match, and I think this may have been a way to give the Iron Throne a hostage against the Hightower.

23. Baela's marriage to Alyn Velaryon clearly was political match to give Alyn a better claim to Driftmark (most likely arranged by Corlys in 131 or 132 AC).

24. Aegon III's marriage to Daenaera Velaryon was arranged by Baela and Rhaena, and would have been politically on their part, but apparently not on Aegon's, who seemed to have been drawn to her.

25. Viserys' marriage to Larra Rogare was forced on him during/following his time as hostage in life. But I guess he was pretty happy with it, at least in the beginning.

26. Aegon's marriage to Naerys was a political incest marriage.

27. Baelor's marriage to Daena was a political incest marriage.

28. Daeron's marriage to Mariah was a political match and part of the peace treaty between the Prince of Dorne and Baelor.

29. Elaena's first two marriage were political in nature - with Ronnel Penrose possibly having Targaryen blood -, the third marriage was for passion.

30. Daenerys' marriage to Maron Martell was political and part of the union between the Iron Throne and Dorne.

31. The marriages of Daeron II's seem to be mostly political, although Aelinor Penrose seems to have had Targaryen blood, which makes it possible that Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne also were Targaryen cousins through the female line.

32. Valarr's marriage to Kiera of Tyrosh seems to have been political to ensure that the Tyroshi would not support the Blackfyres during their rebellions. The same should be true for Daeron's later marriage to Kiera.

33. Aelor's marriage to his twin-sister Aelora was a political incest match.

34. Aerion's marriage to his cousin Daenora was a political incest match.

35. Egg's marriage to Betha Blackwood was a love match.

36. Duncan's marriage to Jenny, and Jaehaerys' marriage to his sister Shaera were love matches.

37. Rhaelle's marriage to Ormund Baratheon was a political match to make peace with the Laughing Storm.

38. Aerys' marriage to Rhaella was a political/mystical incest match.

39. Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was a political match.

40. Daenerys' marriages to Khal Drogo and Hizdahr zo Loraq are both political matches, as was the betrothal between Viserys III and Arianne Martell.

[Lord Varys]

And to continue the stuff on the dragonlords of Valyria:

We don't really know whether the dragonlords alone were the faction calling the shots in the Freehold. There were the sorcerers as well, and it seems that those 'sorcerer-princes' practicing incest as well as polygamy could have been even more prestigious than the dragonlords. Now, I don't doubt that the dragons were important as the Valyrian foundation of world domination, but the root of that all was fire and blood magic, and the people practicing those spells may have been dragonlords as well as sorcerers, at the utmost top of the food chain (whereas the average dragonlord may have just been a regular guy with a dragon, just as the Targaryens in Westeros - mostly - were).

We have to keep in mind that incestuous procreation tends to shrink the amount of offspring you get, since you first need to have to healthy children to marry to each other rather than merely one child who can then pick his/her spouse from outside the family. To create two branches of a family you need two daughters and two sons close enough in age to be reasonably married to each other.

If we also go with the assumption that the miscarriage/stillbirth stuff (which ofttimes kills the mother as well) we know from the Targaryens and Velaryons of Westeros also was common in Valyria, the dragonlords would have to conceive even more children to keep up or increase their numbers, making it difficult that a clan-structure developed quickly over time. Thus I think it is very unlikely that a dragonless son or daughter quickly fell from grace or had to leave the inner circles of the dragonlords. He or she would simply been married to a relative with a dragon, and thus helped conceive more dragonlords.

Those Valyrians who practiced polygamy as well as incest would have had a much better opportunity to conceive many children, some of which would then make up the lesser branches of the family.

I don't think we can reasonably estimate how many dragons the Valyrians had at the peak of their power. It could have been hundreds, it could have thousands. And the most powerful dragonlords may have controlled much more dragons than many of the lesser families combined. In fact, since we know that there were times when a single family controlled Valyria, it is very likely that the dragons such a family controlled during those times vastly outnumbered the amount of dragons their strongest rivals controlled combined - else they would most likely not have been able to dominate politics the way they did.

On the other hand, we don't know if dragons did play such a big role. Sure, you had to be a dragonlord to become part of the ruling class, but to play the game you had also to be a great politician, public speaker, charismatic guy, ruthless murderer etc. You can't use dragons 'in court and council' (the arena of the Valyrian game of thrones), and if you are poisoned or murdered in your sleep your dragons don't use you all that much.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Great stuff, Lord Varys! Very impressive analysis and dot-connecting.

Some thoughts from me:

4. Prince Aegon's marriage to Princess Rhaena was clearly a political incestuous marriage. We know that it was Aenys' decision to go through with it, but I guess Queen Alyssa was also supporting this issue, perhaps even suggesting it.

Knowing what we know about Aenys' chronic indecisiveness, it's hard to believe he was the instigator of the match, or even a strong supporter. Alyssa seems to most likely candidate, perhaps explicitly motivated to forestall the kind of trouble a non-family marriage might cause by giving undue influence to outsiders (see, Hightowers / High Septon). I suspect Visenya was an ally of Alyssa's in this, even though Rhaena was denied to Maegor. Visenya would have clearly understood that the High Septon's opposition to Rheana/Maegor match was not so much about incest, as about Hightower influence. If Alyssa is now keen to reverse that, Visenya would support it. Visenya may even have instigated or insisted on it, in her role as the "family champion" (as we discussed above), putting her and her son's injured pride aside for the sake of the family.

A darker interpretation is that Visenya encouraged it because she wanted to "burn" Rhaenys' side of the family in Westerosi eyes, making Maegor the logical choice to replace/succeed Aenys.

7. Jaehaerys' marriage to Alysanne was a political incest marriage with a strong vibe that there was actually a lot of attraction/love going on between Jaehaerys and Alysanne, explaining why Alyssa decided to marry these two to each other instead to marry Jaehaerys to either Aerea or Rhalla.

Also it's handy that Jae and Aly would have been able to have some badly needed Targ babies much sooner than if Jae married Aerea, who was 10 years younger.

9. Prince Aemon's marriage to Jocelyn Baratheon, Alyssa's daughter by Lord Robar, strongly suggests that this match was arranged by Queen Alyssa herself in her later years, giving a strong hint about the amount of power she had behind the scenes (another is the fact that Jaehaerys' eldest daughter was named after her grandmother). We don't know if Aemon and Jocelyn grew up together at court and were drawn to each other, but we cannot rule that out.

The fact that Alyssa Velaryon must have been involved in the Aemon-Jocelyn match is also hinted at by the fact that Alyssa Targaryen was older than both Aemon and Baelon. Since we know that Valyrian custom dictated that a son marry his elder sister, somebody must have argued in favor of a Aemon-Jocelyn rather than a Aemon-Alyssa match. And I'm sure that Aemon clearly was always considered to be Jaehaerys' heir - at least after Prince Aegon died - suggesting that Alyssa Velaryon wanted that her daughter by Robar became the next queen, and continued the royal line.

10. Baelon's marriage to Alyssa is a political incest marriage - and love may been involved as well, as it is possible that Alyssa and Baelon were drawn to each rather than Aemon and Alyssa. I'm not sure if it was clear by the point this marriage was made that Baelon and Alyssa's children may become rivals of Aemon's children, but the point clearly was to ensure the continuation of the dynasty. Maegor's terror regime really cut down the Targaryen family tree to one male dragon.

Yes, the Jocelyn Baratheon match is out of character. She wasn't a half-Targ like Aemma Arryn, so it's not as if she needed to be brought back into the family. That said, she's got dragon blood on both sides (through Baratheon and Velaryon), although clearly less so than Aemon's own sister.

Also, J+A were in love, so perhaps as long as some of their children married each other, they were happy to let them pick who marries who (so if Baelon and Alyssa developed a thing, they may have OK'd it even if it were unorthodox). Still doesn't quite answer the question of why the Prince of Dragonstone married a non-Targ though - that seems to be much more unorthodox than expected. Alyssa the Elder's influence is the most likely explanation.

13. Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys would have been political again, binding a very prominent and powerful as future Prince Consort to Aemon's heir. Depending on whether Corlys' mother was Rhaena Targaryen, this could also have been an attempt to unite Jaehaerys' line with Rhaena's line, trying to prevent a struggle for succession. Considering the timing of the whole thing I'm pretty sure there was a good reason to marry Rhaenys to Corlys rather than to Viserys, and I'm pretty sure Rhaenys was married to Corlys while Aemon was still alive, and considered by everyone to be second in line to the Iron Throne. Jaehaerys was only faced with a problematic succession after Aemon's untimely death, as he had to pick another successor - had Aemon ascended to the Iron Throne, his eldest (or only) daughter clearly would have been his heir, and Rhaenys' heir Laenor could have been married to Viserys' daughter Rhaenyra to reunite the two branches yet again (but with Laenor as the future king rather than Rhaenyra the future queen).

I'm not sure exactly how the Corlys-Rhaenys-Viserys-Aemma timeline works. Rhaenys' and Corlys' first child was born in 93AC, and Aemon had died (and Rhaenys removed from succession) in 92AC. It's possible that Rhaenys was married to Corlys only after she was removed from the succession, having been explicitly passed over once again, this time as Viserys' consort in favour of Aemma Arryn. Presumably she was then quickly married to Corlys as consolation - indeed, that was how I initially interpreted the sequence of events.

Why not choose Rhaenys as Viserys' wife? If you think about it, the personalities of Viserys and Rhaenys could not have been more different, and in some potentially crucial ways; he is known as being tractable and avoiding conflict at all costs, while she was known to be "as fierce at five-and-fifty as she was at two-and-twenty" (and fierce enough apparently for Corlys to hide his bastard sons from her). I suspect that Baelon may not have wanted Rhaenys as his son's wife, because she would clearly dominate him; she would one day be queen consort in name, but queen regnant in fact. On the other hand, perhaps a more pliant Aemma Arryn was seen as a much better fit (and easier for the older family members to manage, which, given Viserys' nature, was probably seen as necessary). Rhaenys was unlikely to have many friends or much support in the family, once her position came into question: she would have been sure that she'll one day be queen, which combined with her youth and temperament would probably not have made her a favourite with many influential people. I wonder if Rhaenys wasn't her grandmother's (Alyssa the Elder) granddaughter a little too much in her manner and tone (she may even have been a favourite), and after Alyssa's death, whoever had an axe to grind with her took it out on Rhaenys' chances of succession.

On the other hand, Rhaenys was robbed of both the throne and the consortship BUT her consolation prize was the Sea Snake, and his fabulous wealth and influence. Rhaenys was a Targ princess and dragonrider - she would be in command, or co-command, of the Velaryon family fortune and fleet (no way was she ever going to be just a "lady wife"). So overall, her position was one of significant power and influence, perhaps moreso than the apparently bland Aemma Arryn's. Less than what she was promised (the Iron Throne), but not indefensibly so.

14. Viserys' marriage to Aemma Arryn also seems to have been a political match, to ensure that the then-lesser branch of House Targaryen would continue to have a strong Valyrian bloodline. Viserys did not have any sisters nor any cousins besides Aemma and Rhaenys (who most likely was already betrothed to Corlys by then), meaning that the incest policy dictated that they marry each other. The fact that Aemma was Daella's only child would also have been convenient for House Targaryen, as Aemma's marriage to Viserys ensured that later Arryn generations would not have a claim to the Iron Throne.

It would have been clear to everyone that Viserys needs to tie up one of the family loose ends by marrying either Daella's daughter or Aemmon's daughter. Rhaenys had more Targ blood (her Baratheon and Velaryon ancestry) and was also a Targ by name, so she should have been the clear choice. But other than the personality mismatch with Viserys, Rhaenys may also have been a more valuable opportunity than Aemma for an outside political alliance because she was a Targ by name, and a princess to boot (Aemma was neither). On the other hand, Aemma was "close enough" to Viserys by blood for Targ purity to not be a concern, so she was good enough to be Viserys' consort. And like I said above, Rhaenys may have been seen as entirely unsuitable to Viserys, simple as that.

17. Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor Velaryon was a political incest match, which was supposed to reunite the lines of Prince Aemon and Prince Baelon.

18. Daemon's marriage to Laena Velaryon was perhaps as much a political match as a love match, as there are hints that Daemon was really into Laena, and happy with her and his children by her. The betrothals between Rhaenyra's sons and Daemon's daughters were political matches to make closer ties between Driftmark and Dragonstone.

Daemon's marriage to Laena also reunites Aemon's and Baelon's lines (Aemon's granddaughter and Baelon's son - as opposed to Rhaenyra and Leonor, who are Balon and Aemon's grandchildren). Daemon doesn't miss a chance to bolster his own claim.

[Lord Varys]

Lord_Peppsi_Cupps,

on the Aegon-Rhaena match:

George gave us a little insight in Aenys' decision-making process during 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading last year. What he says is that Aenys came up with the decision to marry Aegon to Rhaena while he oversaw the construction of the Red Keep and imagined how many generations of Targaryens would rule Westeros from that castle. When the High Septon attacks him over it he tries to explain that this is how his family has done things forever, which could be a hint that really came up with that one himself. But I agree that Alyssa must have approved of that, as Jaehaerys and Alysanne most likely could not have married each other if she had opposed such a match.

Visenya does not seem to be involved in that thing, and she gets angry and feels humiliated when Aenys names Aegon Prince of Dragonstone in place of the exiled Maegor on the wedding feast, and subsequently retreats to Dragonstone on Vhagar (the moon looks red like blood in that night, a bad omen, apparently).

[This Prince of Dragonstone thing is somewhat confusing, though; in 'The Sons of the Dragon' version George has read Maegor is called the Prince of Dragonstone throughout his whole life, as Visenya mostly raises him on Dragonstone - whereas Aenys, as Aegon's heir, accompanies his father on all his royal progresses. Yandel calls Aenys Aegon's heir and 'Prince of Dragonstone' in TWoIaF in Aegon's section. Ran has stated that this is not a mistake, suggesting that the backstory of the Prince of Dragonstone title may have changed. But Aenys still names Aegon Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place in TWoIaF, but whether this was just a title back then, or whether Maegor was, for a time, Aenys' heir, signified by the fact that he was styled Prince of Dragonstone, is not clear from TWoIaF.]

Now, 'The Sons of the Dragon' states that Visenya had doubts about Aenys' ability to rule when he first came to the throne, but there are no hints that she secretly tried to undermine and destroy him. In fact, Gyldayn is silent about the last months of 37 and the whole year 38 AC during which time Aenys and Maegor ruled together - Aenys as king, and Maegor as Hand. Nothing suggests that they quarreled much, and the mess only begins sometime in 39 AC when Maegor secretly marries Alys Harroway and eventually makes this fact publicly known. Aenys does not approve of this marriage, but it does not seem that he wants to exile his brother. Actually, he only wants to separate him from Alys and makes this a choice thing - leave Alys, or go into a five year exile. Maegor (and Alys) choose the latter.

But the way the narrative tells us Aenys' downfall is that he isolates himself from his family (Maegor: through the exile, although Maegor's second marriage is also the cause for this whole thing) and Visenya (by naming Aegon Prince of Dragonstone), the public/smallfolk/pious lords/Faith (by not being hard enough to Maegor and by deciding to marry Aegon to Rhaena).

Undermining Aenys after Maegor's exile would essentially be bad for the whole dynasty, not only for Aenys' branch. When Aenys loses KL to the Faith Militant, the Targaryen dynasty loses KL. And when Aenys decides not to answer with dragonflame, the Targaryen dynasty as a whole looks weak. In my opinion, Visenya only actively turned against Aenys when she felt she had no other choice to save the dynasty. We see that it was no easy task for Maegor to reconquer Westeros and put the Targaryen dynasty back in charge.

Thus I don't think Visenya had anything to do with Aenys' idea to marry Aegon to Rhaena - and if she did, she did not come up with that suggestion to ruin the dynasty as she, more than any other Targaryen alive due to her magical knowledge, would have known why the Targaryens began practicing incest in the first place...

Aemon and Jocelyn:

Well, we to keep in mind as well that Robar Baratheon played apparently a huge role in the ascension of Jaehaerys, and Jaehaerys may have been inclined to reward his stepfather for that by binding the Baratheons even closer to the Iron Throne - especially following his marriage to Alyssa, which gave his children by her another dose of Targaryen blood and possibly even Valyrian looks (Rhaenys had them, after all).

On Rhaenys and Corlys:

We know that Corlys was born in 53 AC, which makes him much older than Rhaenys. Considering that Laena and Laenor seem to be his only legitimate children, we should assume that most of his journeys occurred during his 'relative youth' (that is, from his later teens until his late thirties, I think). Now, if we assume that he came back from his great Eastern voyage in the late 80s, taking up his Lordship of Driftmark after his grandfather's death (the Daemon Velaryon during Maegor's reign, I think), it would have been very hard to not consider Corlys' as the best candidate for the first Prince Consort besides the first Queen Regnant of Westeros. Especially if we go with the assumption that Corlys did have a Targaryen mother herself - not only a (great-)great-grandmother or so.

TRP seems to suggest that Viserys and Aemma had been married for a decade in 103 AC, when Viserys takes the Iron Throne. We don't know if Gyladyn is talking precise dates there, but this could be a hint that decision to marry Viserys - Baelon's heir - to a wife with Targaryen blood was only made after Baelon had been made Jaehaerys' heir - which then, in turn, made Viserys next in line to the Iron Throne.

Rhaenys and Corlys could have been married to each other in early 92 AC or so, and Rhaenys may have not gotten pregnant immediately because Corlys - then most likely Master of Ships - accompanied his father-in-law, Prince Aemon, to Tarth to deal with the pirates there, which led to Aemon's early death. Or Corlys was married to Corlys around 90 AC or so, and made his last voyage shortly thereafter, only to father children after his return in 93 AC. Corlys' absence in 92 AC could also explain why Jaehaerys dared to pass over Rhaenys.

Viserys and Aemma:

Daella married Rodrik Arryn in 80 AC, and died in childbirth in 82 AC (date given in TRP), which means that Aemma was only 11 years old in 93 AC when she was (supposedly) married to Viserys, suggesting that this was not exactly a planned match, but rather the hasty result of Jaehaerys' decision to make Baelon his heir.

Young Rhaenys, on the other hand, could have been betrothed to adult Corlys since her childhood, from, say, 80 AC, onwards.

Daemon and Laena:

Yeah, Daemon wanted to have royal children of his own, that much is clear. But it really seems that Laena and Daemon eventually became a happy couple, even if we assume that Daemon's original thought was just to stop his decline. And the whole friendship thing between Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Laena also suggests that these three bore each other no ill will, and nothing suggests that there was foul play involved in Laena's death.

[the conquering bastard 25]

OK, but who are these Targaryen women that the brothers could have married? You can only arrange incestuous marriages when you have related women to choose from.

Well in the case of Daeron he did have a sister that he could have married. He could have wed his Danaerys the original instead of making the marriage between her and Martell.

[Lord Varys]

Daeron II was already married to Mariah Martell when his sister Daenerys was born. He is that much older than her. Daeron was born in 153 AC, and Daenerys only in 172 AC.

[shockwave]

yes, he could have made her marry Baelor instead of Martell though, but there were no other targ girls available for marriage. Daeron only had one sister, and Baelor Befuddled refused to make babies, and Aemon was celibate

[The silver dragon]

yes, he could have made her marry Baelor instead of Martell though, but there were no other targ girls available for marriage. Daeron only had one sister, and Baelor Befuddled refused to make babies, and Aemon was celibate

there was Jeyne Waters child of elaena targaryen and alyn velearon.

[Night's King Reborn]

I wouldn't say that ending incestuous marriage was what caused the Targaryen downfall. Rather, I think it's the result of a number of interpersonal historical contingencies coupled with a century-long series of non-fortuitous deaths.

Consider, for example, Baelor Breakspear's death in 209 AC. Had he lived, it's probable he would have been the equal of Jaehaerys I in having a long (thirty-years plus), highly successful, and well-loved reign (barring his death in the Great Spring Sickness). The Blackfyre Rebellions certainly didn't help cement loyalty to the Targaryens. Summerhall in 259 AC apparently wiped out all experienced and government-worthy Targaryens. If anything, the dynasty collapsed because it simply became too small. Imagine what would have happened if Rhaella hadn't had so many miscarriages and stillbirths. The deaths of Aerys II and Rhaegar in 283 AC effectively meant that adult male leadership in the dynasty was non-existent, and while we don't know much about Rhaella as a political actor she had no conceivable way of rallying enough support after the Sack given that her new king was a young boy isolated politically and geographically.