Heresy 147

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy, the thread that takes a different look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running for so long?

The short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion largely concerned with the Wall and the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, but also looking at the story holistically and in the context of what else is happening in Martin’s world. The Heresy itself, if there is one, is simply a way of thinking that challenges the easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle on the Trident, pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.

Instead, some of us suspect that the white walkers do not represent an evil empire of the snows, an icy version of a Dothraki khalasar about to embark on the last hurrah of the blue-eyed horde, and likewise we suspect that the dragons and their riders are not to be the saviours of Westeros, but rather a threat at least equal to that posed by the boys in the North. These are nevertheless just points of view, and no more than that. We argue about them, just as we argue about most things, such as whether the white walkers are indeed Craster’s sons, and who is really behind what’s going on and why.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

And don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[Black Crow]

As to the raising of the wall; notwithstanding Mormont's petulent complaint that they have forgotten their true purpose, at no point does anyone say the Wall was built to keep the Wildlings out and built ever higher to keep them out. Its a constant theme that it was built to keep the blue-eyed lot out, and if there was a constant effort to build it higher it sounds much more like the Watch [before or after the Nights King] was charged with constantly building the Wall higher and continued building it higher even though they'd effectively forgotten why it was necessary to build it higher. That they'd been told to build it and they kept on building it because nobody told them to stop seems a much more likely explanation in the light of Mormont's complaint, rather than saying we needed to build it ridiculously high just because some bandits kept sneaking over.

[Harlan]

Is there any chance that the Nightfort existed prior to the building of the wall? It would explain why its both older and larger than the other castles.

[JNR]

That they'd been told to build it and they kept on building it because nobody told them to stop seems a much more likely explanation in the light of Mormont's complaint, rather than saying we needed to build it ridiculously high just because some bandits kept sneaking over.

I would phrase it as "it's much more likely they built the Wall up for a reason than that they built the Wall up for no reason."

[JNR]

Is there any chance that the Nightfort existed prior to the building of the wall? It would explain why its both older and larger than the other castles.

Good question. I can't think of anything that would make this impossible, though Bran's statement that

the Nightfort was the first castle on the Wall

seems to imply it doesn't predate the Wall.

[Urrax2]

Why is it called the Night Fort, I wonder.

[JNR]

Why is it called the Night Fort, I wonder.

And if the Night scared them, why didn't they get a Night Light?

Here's an interesting passage:

There were a lot of dark doors in the Nightfort, and a lot of rats. Bran could hear them scurrying through the vaults and cellars, and the maze of pitch-black tunnels that connected them. Jojen wanted to go poking around down there, but Hodor said "Hodor" to that, and Bran said "No." There were worse things than rats down in the dark beneath the Nightfort.

So it seems conceivable that, as a Maester Sam post suggested earlier, there are storerooms full of obsidian daggers. Just a hundred years of CotF contributions would mean ten thousand such daggers. (Unless a certain guy from RLJ does the multiplication.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

From previous thread, MaesterSam wrote:

...(It is also noteworthy that Coldhands could not pass, despite being a former Ranger and knowing the oath. So it's not a matter of saying the oath and getting across, you have to be alive and say the oath)

Not sure it's a matter of being alive. It might, however, be a question of telling the truth... and being who you say you are:

Jon said, "My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying."

"My father believed the same," said the Old Bear.

[Joe Pine]

Is there any chance that the Nightfort existed prior to the building of the wall? It would explain why its both older and larger than the other castles.

Could be a bit chicken and egg?

Firstly, if located there before the wall was built, then why? Could speculate that it was a northern outpost for the Kings of Winter or a southern outpost for The Others.

Next, if it was on the line of the wall, was that a previously agreed boundary between the CoTF and the realms of men? How was it marked on the ground in some way or a ditch?

[Black Crow]

All we know is that Sam has been told by Coldhands that the gate is as old as the Wall, while Bran recalls being told that the Nightfort was the oldest castle on the Wall. The two may well go together. Arguably the Nightfort may not be as old as the Wall but I'd doubt that it existed before the Wall.

[Black Crow]

I would phrase it as "it's much more likely they built the Wall up for a reason than that they built the Wall up for no reason."

They built it to keep the Others out and kept on building it to keep the Others out - continuation of a task originally set long long ago is a characteristic of some religious orders even if that task no longer answers the reason for setting it in the first place or even remember the reason for the task or custom.

[Gilly for the gillyflower]

Perhaps the wall was built as a hinge of magic and then later repurposed as a defensive wall by the watch?

[JNR]

They built it to keep the Others out and kept on building it to keep the Others out - continuation of a task originally set long long ago is a characteristic of some religious orders even if that task no longer answers the reason for setting it in the first place or even remember the reason for the task or custom.

Yes, I know what you mean; I see this sort of thing happen daily in a certain other thread on this very site.

I suppose we'll find out one way or another in the coming books. Until then, I am skeptical that the ancient Watch would have believed a heightened physical barrier would matter much against the Popsicles... and also skeptical that the Watch would go to the immense time and trouble of building up the Wall (for "thousands of years") if the Popsicles never even launched another major campaign. Which they never seem to have done.

The canon does, in any case, give us conflicting information, so there's no certainty to be found. Yet.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

@ Matthew

I like your thoughts on Coldhands fighting the undead. It makes good sense and got me thinking about the Last Hero and what assistance he obtained from his journey. If the LH found the Singers and aquire knowledge, could it be they taught him how to how to raise Coldhands type wights or maybe to turn off the blue lights. It would help to have your own army of undead to negate the team blue.

Or someone else figured it out and employed the loyal undead.

[Matthew.]

Coldhands told Sam that there are old spells woven into the Wall, which we might reasonably assume means they're woven into the ice itself, so its initial (more magical?) growth may have representing a strengthening or reinforcing of the wards. rather than just being for the purpose of expanding the Wall as a physical barrier. Subsequent generations forget how and why the Wall would grow, but continue to increase its size the old fashioned way.

Though I suspect the shorter, truer answer as to why the Wall is such a massive physical barrier is "because GRRM thought it would be cool."

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The Black Gate issue...

It may be, or have been, a place for the Children to pass through also. After all the Gate only asks "who are you" and expects an answer. We don't know that the NW oath is the only acceptable answer. A Song of leaves rustling through the trees could be acceptable too. Or, the Song of Ice and Fire. :D

Diving deeper - If the gate is blind (white eyes) then it possibly could once see who wanted to pass but now must ask. :dunno:

[Matthew.]

@ Matthew

I like your thoughts on Coldhands fighting the undead. It makes good sense and got me thinking about the Last Hero and what assistance he obtained from his journey. If the LH found the Singers and aquire knowledge, could it be they taught him how to how to raise Coldhands type wights or maybe to turn off the blue lights. It would help to have your own army of undead to negate the team blue.

Or someone else figured it out and employed the loyal undead.

It's very crackpot, but it is a potential answer as to why there'd be a tunnel and a gate to allow some magical beings through the Wall; and I'm kind of personally amused by the vision of well-preserved undead rangers packed in the ice cells, waiting to be 'awakened' whenever a deep winter rolls in. One horn blast for rangers returning (from the dead).

The problem is that we have no indication that there were any major Other events after the Long Night, except for maybe the Night's King incident, which calls into question why Coldhands-style undead would even be necessary.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Which goes back to the theory that Coldhands is the Last Hero. Not that I necessarily believe that, though it is possible. If they that killed him long ago are wights and wights haven't been around since the Long Night... (Mace Cooterian where are you? :)) I have thought he may be contemporary with Bloodraven and the they that killed him long ago are white walkers or men of the Watch. If so, who brought Coldhands back to life? An albino greenseer? Just throwing this stuff out there. With so little information it is easy to to speculate.

Coldhands inability to pass through the Wall may be that he was raised on the north side.

[Summer Is Coming!]

The Black Gate issue...

It may be, or have been, a place for the Children to pass through also. After all the Gate only asks "who are you" and expects an answer. We don't know that the NW oath is the only acceptable answer. A Song of leaves rustling through the trees could be acceptable too. Or, the Song of Ice and Fire. :D

Diving deeper - If the gate is blind (white eyes) then it possibly could once see who wanted to pass but now must ask. :dunno:

These are both interesting ideas. It's interesting that Sam is the one who opens the Black Gate, but Gilly, the little monster, and BC's Scooby Gang are all able to pass through it. We are told that Coldhands cannot pass through, but I find it interesting that only one person needs to open the Gate before the "living" can use it.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Coldhands told Sam that there are old spells woven into the Wall, which we might reasonably assume means they're woven into the ice itself, so its initial (more magical?) growth may have representing a strengthening or reinforcing of the wards. rather than just being for the purpose of expanding the Wall as a physical barrier. Subsequent generations forget how and why the Wall would grow, but continue to increase its size the old fashioned way.

Though I suspect the shorter, truer answer as to why the Wall is such a massive physical barrier is "because GRRM thought it would be cool."

I was wondering about this as well. If the Wall's original power and purpose is magical, does that magic strengthen as the Wall is larger? Does it strengthen if there are more members of the Night's Watch?

We also don't know who exactly was involved in the magic at the Wall. I assume the Children/Singers, but if they are not stopping by to strengthen the magical wards then is it any stronger than it was after its first century of existence?