since when do the essosi sellswords exist?

[Maester Mando]

Hello all,

I just wanted to kmow since when the sellsword companies exist. I always thought they were established after the doom, but twoiaf says that for example harwyn hoare foight with them in the disputed lands. (Also wonder why the disputed lands were disputed before the doom). Also terrence teague hired sellsworss in essos.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I can't find many specific dates, but Harwyn Hoare was Harren the Black's grandfather and the Doom was about a century before Aegon's landing. So it's entirely possible that Harwyn lived after the Doom.

[Maester Mando]

Youre right. I somehow imagined house hoare ruled longer over the trident. Thats only more or less a century!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

During the Century of Blood following the Doom. One hint is the history of the Second Sons, being one of the oldest companies and founded there. The companies filled the power vacuum the dragons had left.

The Disputed Lands on the other hand got that name some time during the last ~150 years. Earlier Tyr, Myr and Lys formed the Triarchy and the Disputed Lands weren't disputed.

[Maester Mando]

During the Century of Blood following the Doom. One hint is the history of the Second Sons, being one of the oldest companies and founded there. The companies filled the power vacuum the dragons had left.

The Disputed Lands on the other hand got that name some time during the last ~150 years. Earlier Tyr, Myr and Lys formed the Triarchy and the Disputed Lands weren't disputed.

The disputed lands existed before the triarchy. The triarchy existed only from 96 ac to 130 ac according to twoiaf.

[Lykos]

During the Century of Blood following the Doom.

Is that detailed in TWoIaF? I had the impression that the power vacuum left by the dragons was filled by the dothraki in the rural regions and the free cities using the sellsword companies in the urban regions.

I also thought that the sellsword companies might have developed out of auxiliary troops used by the Valyrian Freehold to deal with rebellions, Garin and the Rhoynar for example, and that the oldest companies might have formed before the Doom.

Tyrion in Dance.

The book was leather-bound with iron hinges, and large enough to eat your supper off. Inside its heavy wooden boards were names and dates going back more than a century.

“The Second Sons are amongst the oldest of the free companies,” Inkpots said as he was turning pages.

“This is the fourth book. The names of every man to serve with us are written here. When they joined, where they fought, how long they served, the manner of their deaths — all in the book.

You will find famous names in here, some from your Seven Kingdoms. Aegor Rivers served a year with us, before he left to found the Golden Company. Bittersteel, you call him. The Bright Prince, Aerion Targaryen, he was a Second Son. And Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf, him as well.

It's not absolutely clear, but I read it as the current book going back more than a century. By adding the other three books you'll get at least four centuries up to over a thousand years, if the current book is less than half finished. I thought the second sons might have existed five to six centuries.

Is there hard evidence in TWoIaF that contradicts this impression?

[Luddagain]

So Ned's grandpa was a Second Son.

I am thinking Rodrik Stark has a MAJOR role to play. He might STILL be alive. He would be about 75-85 years old.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The disputed lands existed before the triarchy. The triarchy existed only from 96 ac to 130 ac according to twoiaf.

I stand corrected. Went from memory, even spelled Tyr/Tyrosh wrong :blushing:

Is that detailed in TWoIaF? I had the impression that the power vacuum left by the dragons was filled by the dothraki in the rural regions and the free cities using the sellsword companies in the urban regions.

I also thought that the sellsword companies might have developed out of auxiliary troops used by the Valyrian Freehold to deal with rebellions, Garin and the Rhoynar for example, and that the oldest companies might have formed before the Doom.

Tyrion in Dance.

It's not absolutely clear, but I read it as the current book going back more than a century. By adding the other three books you'll get at least four centuries up to over a thousand years, if the current book is less than half finished. I thought the second sons might have existed five to six centuries.

Is there hard evidence in TWoIaF that contradicts this impression?

Yes.

The Disputed Lands has been the birthplace of more of these so-called free companies than any other place in the known world, beginning during the Century of Blood. p. 264

And a couple other passages as well.

[Lord Varys]

The stuff about Harwyn Hardhand in the east may have been wrong. Harren ruled for forty years prior to the Conquest, and Harwyn himself died at the age of 64 if I'd not mistaken. Both he and his son Halleck, Harren's father, would have ruled for quite some time, and even if the Doom had already struck in Harwyn's youth, it would be very unlikely that Harwyn could do the stuff he supposedly did - like, reaving in regions which were formally firmly under the thumb of Valyria and later directly controlled by Volantis or one of the other free cities. In those times, the Free Cities still warred with actual armies and fleets, and the free companies would gradually come into existence after the city-states themselves decided that they did not want to risk the lives of their citizens in war.

[Maester Mando]

The other thing is that torrence teague hired sellsword in essos to conquer the riverlands. And this some hundred years before the doom. Otherwise there have been for example andal sellswords long before that, so maybe they werent meant to be those sellsword companies we know today. Its just that i re read twoiaf now and some things just come to my head reading. The other thing was that there are pirates and corsairs from the basilisks mentioned all the time, but that the section in them says that tjey only came after the doom... maybe there is an explanation for it, but its kind of unsatisfying to have some confusions like this in a worldbook. Sadly i think that well never get an eyplanation of it.

[Lord Varys]

Aren't the Basilisk Islands corsairs and pirates also mentioned in context of young Harwyn? That would also be a sign that this is a mistake. Pre-Doom pretty much everything was in the hands of the Valyrians and under their thumb, and shortly after the Doom there was first the rise and fall of Gogossos before the Basilisks became the lair of corsairs...

Harwyn may have been born shortly before the Doom, and spent his youth shortly after the Doom, but the way the political situation is described simply makes little sense. If Harwyn was active there during the Century of Blood, then not as a reaver but as a sellsword in service of Volantis or the free cities fighting against Volantis.

The Teague thing can be reconciled much easier. We know that the First Men brought the first Andals to Westeros as sellswords, thus there is no reason to assume that there weren't still some Andal tribes over in Essos by the time Teague needed enough muscle to become king.

Only the free companies came into existence during the Century of Blood, and I guess they are specific, much more organized form of sellswords than 'normal mercenaries'.

[Maester Mando]

On another forum someone noted that there may have been corsairs in the basilisks all the time and that only gogossos and the isle of tears were under valyriqn control (it wasnt even a regular colony, but a penql colony), so i assume that the valyrian presence there might have been very scarce. There couldve been corsairs all the time on different isles, who where extinguished by the plagues that befell the isles after thecentury of blood. And hundred years after other corsairs came to the isles. We shouldnt underestimate the size of the isles. Even if there was a valyrian penal colony tehre couldve been many other petty rulers, like corsairs all over the other isles. Cant imagine this as an inconsistency. I mean they wouldve noticed this. And why should the rhoynar go there if ALL the isles were valyrian controlled?

The harwyn thing: harren ruled 40 years, lets say he was 20 when his father died, that makes him born ca. In 60 bc. If we take 20 years between generations, as common in the asoiaf world, that would make harwyn be born in ca 100 bc, even after the doom, so its absolutely possible that he fought in the century of blood. Twoiaf also says that many ironborn at that time fought for several of the free cities.

Nevertheless, an clarification to all this would be nice, but i doubt we'll ever get one...