How did Jon Arryn figure out that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were incest bastards?

[Attitude]

So, all in the start of the story Jon Arryn has died and Ned receives a letter about this. Because of hints in this letter and other information that Ned retrieves, he starts following the steps of Jon Arryn. In the end the ‘seed is strong’ gave the conclusion that a Baratheon never had blond hair in the last couple of decades. (So far so good right?)

Anyway, I’ve started figuring out, and I don’t know if I just forgot or missed something, but how did Jon Arryn start to suspect this? Ned came to the realization after he followed Jon’s steps, but who pushed Jon in the right direction? Is this known?

Anyway, if this isn’t known, I’ve got a good feeling it was LF. Three good friends, kill one of them to bring them together, get the other one killed to create chaos, get the last one killed to create a war and more chaos.

Anyway, if I missed/forgot something, please explain me how it worked. If not, what are your thoughts about this?

[Lord Lannister]

Stannis had his suspicions and brought them to Jon Arryn because he figured Robert would ignore the incest accusation coming from him.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Logically I'd guess that Varys, probably through an alias, alerted either Jon or Stannis to it as (F)Aegon was coming of age and it was time to get the ball rolling on destabilizing the kingdom.

I really doubt that one day either of the two suddenly came to the conclusion, but were nudged in the right direction.

[The Drunkard]

Stannis had his suspicions, but felt that his claims would seem entirely self-serving if he approached Robert, so instead he approached Jon. Together the two of them began investigating, looking for evidence with which they could convince Robert.

[Attitude]

Stannis had his suspicions, but felt that his claims would seem entirely self-serving if he approached Robert, so instead he approached Jon. Together the two of them began investigating, looking for evidence with which they could convince Robert.

Stannis had his suspicions and brought them to Jon Arryn because he figured Robert would ignore the incest accusation coming from him.

It's probably my memory, but where is this stated? I really don't remember and at this point it feels like someone with a bit more eye for these details than a Baratheon figured this out. But if it was Stannis, it was Stannis.

But then again, how did Stannis' suspicions started?

[The Drunkard]

It's probably my memory, but where is this stated? I really don't remember and at this point it feels like someone with a bit more eye for these details than a Baratheon figured this out. But if it was Stannis, it was Stannis.

"I did not keep silent," Stannis declared. "I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn."

"Rather than your own brother?"

"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved."

That's during the parley between Stannis and Renly.

But then again, how did Stannis' suspicions started?

Nothing definitive. Some believe Littlefinger or Varys somehow tipped him off based on this:

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."

"Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear."

[Berkilak]

My guess is that Stannis was just always suspicious from the first time he saw the Lannister-spawn. As he stated, there wasn't anything he could do about it immediately.

[House Mauldania]

I don't remember if this is true or not but I think Renly and Stannis both knew, but neither wanted to tell the other because they didn't get along.

[Attitude]

"I did not keep silent," Stannis declared. "I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn."

"Rather than your own brother?"

"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved."

That's during the parley between Stannis and Renly.

Nothing definitive. Some believe Littlefinger or Varys somehow tipped him off based on this:

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."

"Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear."

Tnxs for those quotes. The first part brings back something in my memory, the 2nd a lot less. The 2nd part is between Tyrion and Varys(?). Doesn't Varys imply a bit later that it wasn't him who whispered but LF?

[The Drunkard]

Tnxs for those quotes. The first part brings back something in my memory, the 2nd a lot less. The 2nd part is between Tyrion and Varys(?). Doesn't Varys imply a bit later that it wasn't him who whispered but LF?

Yeah, it's one of the early Tyrion chapters in ACOK. Varys says that it wasn't him, but that he wouldn't admit it if it was, so that could go either way.

I don't remember if this is true or not but I think Renly and Stannis both knew, but neither wanted to tell the other because they didn't get along.

Renly didn't. He thinks the letter was a purely political move by Stannis.

[Nyrhex]

I don't remember if this is true or not but I think Renly and Stannis both knew, but neither wanted to tell the other because they didn't get along.

There is nothing to say that Renly knew before Stannis sent the letters, and before Catelyn told him that she believes that Bran was pushed because he caught them.

Tnxs for those quotes. The first part brings back something in my memory, the 2nd a lot less. The 2nd part is between Tyrion and Varys(?). Doesn't Varys imply a bit later that it wasn't him who whispered but LF?

Tyrion and Varys. Though the "Varys and Littlefinger are behind all the plots in the history of ever" shtick is over-used. Stannis never mentions anyone alerting him to the twincest, and he has zero reasons to believe a word that LF or Varys say. He hates them and wants to kick them out of the Small Council because he knows they are plotters.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tyrion and Varys. Though the "Varys and Littlefinger are behind all the plots in the history of ever" shtick is over-used. Stannis never mentions anyone alerting him to the twincest, and he has zero reasons to believe a word that LF or Varys say. He hates them and wants to kick them out of the Small Council because he knows they are plotters.

Varys has disguises and agents in his employ. I think he is the source for Jon and Stannis finding out, but I dont think he directly tells them, as he would be used as their witness to Robert, but used other more subtle methods.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

All of the Baratheons are black haired with blue eyes. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen aren't. Robert told Ned that Cersei is protecting her pussy like it'd be the whole wealth of Casterly-Rock (or something like that), I'm sure he told this to other people too, like Jon Arryn.

So I think it's nothing special, only the things what we already know.

[Attitude]

Tyrion and Varys. Though the "Varys and Littlefinger are behind all the plots in the history of ever" shtick is over-used. Stannis never mentions anyone alerting him to the twincest, and he has zero reasons to believe a word that LF or Varys say. He hates them and wants to kick them out of the Small Council because he knows they are plotters.

Of course they aren’t the only plotters. But I don’t think there isn’t a big happening that happened in the first few books of asoiaf that happened in KL that they didn’t have anything to do with. Maybe the first push wasn’t theirs, but the other pushes were.Of course they aren’t the only plotters. But I don’t think there isn’t a big happening that happened in the first few books of asoiaf that happened in KL that they didn’t have anything to do with. Maybe the first push wasn’t theirs, but the other pushes were.

Oh, and not liking people and rather seeing them gone then near you, doesn’t mean that their words don’t mean anything to him. Sometimes your worst enemy is more honest than your best friend.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

All of the Baratheons are black haired with blue eyes. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen aren't. Robert told Ned that Cersei is protecting her pussy like it'd be the whole wealth of Casterly-Rock (or something like that), I'm sure he told this to other people too, like Jon Arryn.

So I think it's nothing special, only the things what we already know.

Not all Baratheons. We know that Rhaenys, who had a Baratheon mother, had the Targ features. There would be some anomalies, the hair color is a clue not hardcore evidence,

[aryagonnakill#2]

It has to have been LF if it was anyone, as we see Varys and Ilyrio talking in Aryas POV trying to delay things because they are not ready yet. Someone also had to tell Stannis and Jon about Gendry, so someone had to be involved, and we have a good reason to think it was not Varys.

[A Man Has Said]

It's probably my memory, but where is this stated? I really don't remember and at this point it feels like someone with a bit more eye for these details than a Baratheon figured this out. But if it was Stannis, it was Stannis.

But then again, how did Stannis' suspicions started?

It's stated all through the book that:

-Renly was the spitting image of a younger Robert (early on in a Ned POV)

-So was Edric Storm, whom Stannis knew very well

-Stannis also knew Gendry (his master was making Jon Arryn's new armour) looked so much like Renly and therefore Robert, that when Brienne first saw him she thought Renly had come back to life.

So 'the seed was strong' was not something that could only be demonstrated by the ancestry tome.

lt could be seen by Stannis in three living individuals, two of whom he knew very well.

And Stannis knew that Gendry was Robert's bastard.

That's why he arranged for himself and Jon Arryn to visit and interview the boy.

[Lord Lannister]

Tyrion and Varys. Though the "Varys and Littlefinger are behind all the plots in the history of ever" shtick is over-used. Stannis never mentions anyone alerting him to the twincest, and he has zero reasons to believe a word that LF or Varys say. He hates them and wants to kick them out of the Small Council because he knows they are plotters.

Agreed. I do find it silly that some fans think that no one can use the chamber pot in King's Landing without Littlefinger or Varys being there to wipe while Bloodraven observes via Balerion the cat.

[Clegane'sPup]

So, all in the start of the story Jon Arryn has died and Ned receives a letter about this. Because of hints in this letter and other information that Ned retrieves, he starts following the steps of Jon Arryn. In the end the ‘seed is strong’ gave the conclusion that a Baratheon never had blond hair in the last couple of decades. (So far so good right?)

Anyway, I’ve started figuring out, and I don’t know if I just forgot or missed something, but how did Jon Arryn start to suspect this? Ned came to the realization after he followed Jon’s steps, but who pushed Jon in the right direction? Is this known?

Anyway, if this isn’t known, I’ve got a good feeling it was LF. Three good friends, kill one of them to bring them together, get the other one killed to create chaos, get the last one killed to create a war and more chaos.

Anyway, if I missed/forgot something, please explain me how it worked. If not, what are your thoughts about this?

Maybe Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, was made responsible for keeping tabs on the King's children and paying out money for their upkeep. Perhaps seeing that the King's bastard born offspring had the same physical traits of the King made him question the legitimacy of the three golden haired children living under the Kings roof.

I seem to remember Eddard, as Hand of the King, paying visits to those children and then requesting the book that Jon Arryn had been reading.

As to, So, all in the start of the story Jon Arryn has died and Ned receives a letter about this - Cat received a letter from her sister saying that she believed JA was murdered. Later that was revealed to be a hoax between Cat's sister and the devious LF. Intrigue and mystery.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Personally I think it started with Joffrey cutting that pregnant cat and showing the inside to Robert. "This psycho can't be my nephew!" or the like. With the first doubts planted, Stannis would start to look for other clues.