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Video Games 2015: The Death of the MMO


Rhom

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Hit 21 pages. From the last thread:

Wildstar and FFXIV:RR are only still sub models because they're new. They'll both go F2P eventually.

I am baffled as to why Wildstar isn't F2P already; should have been no less than B2P from the start. For all the things that development team got right, they got so much wrong.

Wildstar will either go F2P or just shut down (that publisher has a habit of doing that).

FFXIV though seems to have a pretty healthy subscriber base (they report 2 million), which is still growing, so it probably won't make any changes. After all, FFXI is still subscription-only too.

And Eve is such a special snowflake with core dedicated player base that it probably won't change either. Particularly since if you're any good at the game its not hard to buy 30-day subscription codes off other players using the in-game currency.

FFXI is still online? I thought they shut those servers down a year or two ago.

I loved that game.

(Oh and Shryke and Aceluby are still hashing out the definition of an "expansion.") :lol:

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Currently still installed on my PC are Star Trek Online and Star Wars: TOR; but I haven't logged into either of them in months. STO has so very many flaws, but I have to admit... from a F2P standpoint, there's very little they block access to and the very best content is community provided so it essentially has endless possibilities there.

I do still get the itch to fire up WoW from time to time, but knowing that I have no time to play it always shoots me back down. Probably one of the great regrets of my life is that when I was selected to have a chance to purchase a FigurePrint back in 2008, I thought $100 was too much at that time. I had it all planned out in my mind, my dwarf warrior would be sporting his T5 gear and my Thuderfury. Sadly, some time in 2010 my account was hacked and all of my nostalgia gear was DE'd. I had no desire to get the statue made with some random drops from WotLK quests/instances.

The desire to chase the "Goose That Laid the Golden Egg" of the successful subscription based MMO model certainly must still be a strong lure to companies, but other than players invested in a game like WoW or Eve or the draw of decades of nostalgia like the Final Fantasy MMO's; I can't see a successful launch of a new MMO in the near future on the old model. If a BioWare produced Star Wars IP can't make it... what hope is there for the rest of us?

ETA: Oh yeah, and DuckTales Remastered is free on PSN for PS3 users this month. I picked it up and played some last night. The 11 year old me who spent hours in front of my NES with that game was well pleased. :lol:

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Console games? Not sure.

Expansion packs are much less common these days but were a staple of PC gaming for like 2 decades. Blizzard is still all about the expansion. It's an expected part of any Blizzard game's lifecycle. It's what the company has always done. (the expansion pack is usually highly anticipated because it's always made the good base game a bunch better)

Usually it's referred to as DLC actually. Because that's what separates it from an expansion pack. It's small bite-sized content for small prices rather then an expansion, which is a more expensive, larger single release that is a boxed copy and everything.

This isn't pedantic, this is literally what these words mean. There's a reason DLC was called DLC and not expansion packs when it first began to appear and that's because the business model is completely different.

It really appears like you just aren't familiar with the business model of the expansion pack.

FWIW... The Ultimate Evil Edition of Diablo 3 for PS3 is regularly $39.99. (On sale at Best Buy for $28.99 currently.)

Reaper of Souls Expansion for the PC is also $39.99.

So the argument on pricing is a moot point. You are paying for the expansion. Your characters can also be uploaded to the UEE.

So the only point I can follow with Aceluby is the being unable to play with other players. I'm not sure how D3 works for the PC, but in games like WoW I could always play even if I hadn't upgraded but I wouldn't have access to the new areas.

I give this round to Shryke. :lol:

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Currently still installed on my PC are Star Trek Online and Star Wars: TOR; but I haven't logged into either of them in months. STO has so very many flaws, but I have to admit... from a F2P standpoint, there's very little they block access to and the very best content is community provided so it essentially has endless possibilities there.

I do still get the itch to fire up WoW from time to time, but knowing that I have no time to play it always shoots me back down. Probably one of the great regrets of my life is that when I was selected to have a chance to purchase a FigurePrint back in 2008, I thought $100 was too much at that time. I had it all planned out in my mind, my dwarf warrior would be sporting his T5 gear and my Thuderfury. Sadly, some time in 2010 my account was hacked and all of my nostalgia gear was DE'd. I had no desire to get the statue made with some random drops from WotLK quests/instances.

The desire to chase the "Goose That Laid the Golden Egg" of the successful subscription based MMO model certainly must still be a strong lure to companies, but other than players invested in a game like WoW or Eve or the draw of decades of nostalgia like the Final Fantasy MMO's; I can't see a successful launch of a new MMO in the near future on the old model. If a BioWare produced Star Wars IP can't make it... what hope is there for the rest of us?

As long as we're talking MMOs...I still occasionally play TOR, STO, GW2, Rift and The Secret World (not all at once, just as the mood strikes me). If/when Wildstar goes F2P, I will also likely give it another shot. All the foregoing games have obvious imperfections, but retain sufficient charm in their settings/gameplay to at least occasionally keep me coming back for more. TESO, in my unfiltered opinion, is absolute crap on a stick. Forget F2P - they would have to pay me to play it again. I am ashamed at having spent money on it.

Regarding WoW, a friend convinced me to fire it back up last year, but it didn't hold my interest for more than a few weeks. The magic in that game is just gone for me, as it is for many others. However, WoW's voracious core playerbase (I estimate 3-5 million subscribers) will keep the game printing money for as long as Activision/Blizz chooses to keep running it. That old-school contingent of fans isn't calling for WoW to go F2P, nor will they.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_pack



Yeah... one of us clearly doesn't understand what expansions are.... But you stay classy.



Can you name any console game that actually fits your criteria for an 'expansion', or is D3 an outlier that you get to put in its own category so you can win an argument on the iterwebz?








Well the problem with you limiting it to consoles is that console games don't get expansions because of the need (up until this generation) for swapping discs. But let's see: Dynasty Warriors 3-8's various expansions whether they be XL or Empires.


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Well the problem with you limiting it to consoles is that console games don't get expansions because of the need (up until this generation) for swapping discs. But let's see: Dynasty Warriors 3-8's various expansions whether they be XL or Empires.

Is that what we're calling "Expansions" now? If so, should I include the three versions of Street Fighter 2 that I own for the SNES?

I agree that true Expansions were rare in the console setting due to limitations of HDD and other hardware factors until the PS3/X360 generation and by then, the market had essentially moved on from the expansion financial model into the dreaded "Day One DLC" money pit.

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The subscription model may be losing steam, but the traditional mechanics of MMOs are alive and well. RPG developers especially don't miss a chance to inject fetch quests, theme park levels and stand-still-and-spam-skills combat into their games. We still have a ways to go before the war is won my brothers and sisters. Fight on.


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Is that what we're calling "Expansions" now? If so, should I include the three versions of Street Fighter 2 that I own for the SNES?

I agree that true Expansions were rare in the console setting due to limitations of HDD and other hardware factors until the PS3/X360 generation and by then, the market had essentially moved on from the expansion financial model into the dreaded "Day One DLC" money pit.

Yeah, that's what I think happened as well.

Expansions were big business for awhile and then as PC gaming began to be seen by developers as "not worth it", the model slowly faded because consoles can't easily support the model. And by the time consoles could, the alternative model of DLC had already gained enough prominence that the expansion pack is likely to stay a rare thing.

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As long as we're talking MMOs...I still occasionally play TOR, STO, GW2, Rift and The Secret World (not all at once, just as the mood strikes me). If/when Wildstar goes F2P, I will also likely give it another shot. All the foregoing games have obvious imperfections, but retain sufficient charm in their settings/gameplay to at least occasionally keep me coming back for more. TESO, in my unfiltered opinion, is absolute crap on a stick. Forget F2P - they would have to pay me to play it again. I am ashamed at having spent money on it.

I still play GW2, since I mostly play casually. It may be the only major MMO that was built from the ground-up to be B2P instead of P2P that transitions into a B2P/hybrid model. Also, there's rumors abound that GW2 will release its first expansion: Heart of Thorns.

Regarding WoW, a friend convinced me to fire it back up last year, but it didn't hold my interest for more than a few weeks. The magic in that game is just gone for me, as it is for many others. However, WoW's voracious core playerbase (I estimate 3-5 million subscribers) will keep the game printing money for as long as Activision/Blizz chooses to keep running it. That old-school contingent of fans isn't calling for WoW to go F2P, nor will they.

Agreed. I played through most of the story for the new WoD, and I lasted for a few weeks before canceling my subscription.

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I still play GW2, since I mostly play casually. It may be the only major MMO that was built from the ground-up to be B2P instead of P2P that transitions into a B2P/hybrid model. Also, there's rumors abound that GW2 will release its first expansion: Heart of Thorns.

I have always thought that the GW2 financial model (B2P, with microtransactions that make sense and a fair RL-to-game currency market) was the best of any MMO ever released.

Any idea what that expansion would entail? I have found the periodic content releases to be hit-or-miss.

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Expansions were big business for awhile and then as PC gaming began to be seen by developers as "not worth it", the model slowly faded because consoles can't easily support the model. And by the time consoles could, the alternative model of DLC had already gained enough prominence that the expansion pack is likely to stay a rare thing.

I think the DLC model is simply more profitable, not least because it completely cuts out the additional costs of producing and shipping physical copies.

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I think the DLC model is simply more profitable, not least because it completely cuts out the additional costs of producing and shipping physical copies.

These days you usually can download expansions though. Destiny's expansions are downloads for instance. The line between expansion pack and DLC is definitely getting blurred these days (except for stand-alone expansions, those are still a very different beast), except for cost.

I think expansions generally just take too much work though. Its far easier to make two DLC and charge $10 for each and make the same revenue for a lot less cost, because the price of DLC is completely out-of-whack with its actual value.

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These days you usually can download expansions though. Destiny's expansions are downloads for instance. The line between expansion pack and DLC is definitely getting blurred these days (except for stand-alone expansions, those are still a very different beast), except for cost.

I think expansions generally just take too much work though. Its far easier to make two DLC and charge $10 for each and make the same revenue for a lot less cost, because the price of DLC is completely out-of-whack with its actual value.

Oh I consider Destiny's "expansions" to be DLC. I certainly don't see much more content with The Dark Below than I would in say "Leviathan" for ME3. Heck, some of the ME or Dragon Age DLC would be much more than the Destiny expansions since they include not only new playable areas, but also entirely new playable characters.

In the end, I think the term "expansion" is being used very loosely in many areas of gaming.

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I think expansions generally just take too much work though. Its far easier to make two DLC and charge $10 for each and make the same revenue for a lot less cost, because the price of DLC is completely out-of-whack with its actual value.

Well, I'd say that the "actual value" of entertainment software is roughly whatever you're willing to pay for it. These days, between Steam, Origin, GOG and HumbleBundle that is often very little in my case. Considering that video game prices have been extremely stable for 20+ years now, I don't really feel that entitled to complain too loudly about pricing. I think the price for chocolate (to pick another luxury good; though I'm mostly going by the cheap stuff I can get at any supermarket) has at least quadrupled in that timeframe.

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I have always thought that the GW2 financial model (B2P, with microtransactions that make sense and a fair RL-to-game currency market) was the best of any MMO ever released.

Any idea what that expansion would entail? I have found the periodic content releases to be hit-or-miss.

ArenaNet actually has an in-house economist on staff who monitors and studies the in-game economy, which is also internationally unified.

As to an expansion: More and new weapon-types for professions? More utilities and elites? More zones? More dungeons and fractals? An additional race? New PvP and WvW features and maps? Guild vs. Guild? I kinda doubt they would add a new profession. I would not mind seeing improvements to the Personal Home Instance to be more customizable. (Garrisons in WoW:WoD actually were a fairly fun feature.)

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Yo. X-Wing Alliance, X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (including the single-player Balance of Power campaign) and Galactic Battlegrounds are now on GoG, along with Knights of the Old Republic II, Dark Forces and Battlefront II. Sweet.


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As long as we're talking MMOs...I still occasionally play TOR, STO, GW2, Rift and The Secret World (not all at once, just as the mood strikes me). If/when Wildstar goes F2P, I will also likely give it another shot. All the foregoing games have obvious imperfections, but retain sufficient charm in their settings/gameplay to at least occasionally keep me coming back for more. TESO, in my unfiltered opinion, is absolute crap on a stick. Forget F2P - they would have to pay me to play it again. I am ashamed at having spent money on it.

Regarding WoW, a friend convinced me to fire it back up last year, but it didn't hold my interest for more than a few weeks. The magic in that game is just gone for me, as it is for many others. However, WoW's voracious core playerbase (I estimate 3-5 million subscribers) will keep the game printing money for as long as Activision/Blizz chooses to keep running it. That old-school contingent of fans isn't calling for WoW to go F2P, nor will they.

What's wrong with ESO?

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What's wrong with ESO?

Posting on my phone but I'll give this a shot:

Drab, uninteresting presentation and visuals. Awkward gameplay mechanics. Boring, by-the-numbers story elements. Uneven leveling experience. Inadequate usage of the source material. Confusing/difficult social interface, making group play unnecessarily cumbersome.

I could go on but you get the idea. Granted, I haven't played since 30-45 days post live release, but barring a near-complete overhaul I see no reason to revisit.

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