Was Aegon the conqueror gay?

[NGParadox]

Hey everyone

This is my first post so go easy on me :P I've been a long time reader of the forums which has always provided me with intrigue or laughter on my commutes to work.

Now on to the theory, there are many questions about Aegon and his reign and when trying to answer them I realised it could all point to Orys Baratheon being his lover......

1. Firstly Aegon is married to his sisters but there are many times he is offered the opportunity to marry another but he always refuses. He never seems interested in any women except his sisters.

2. Even though he loves his two sisters, he surprisingly only ever has 1 child with both and both have questions surrounding them. Some say Aenys may not have been his due to rhaenys many lovers, then after she dies Visenya suddenly becomes pregnant at a very late age (41 if I remember correctly) This is a late age to suddenly get pregnant and I have heard a few state that maybe she use sorcery to impregnate herself, as there are rumours she used sorcery. This could also explain Maeger not being able to have children even though he had many wives. So none of his children may be his.

3. Who Orys is, is still a mystery. In the WOIAF it's states that most believe him to be a bastard brother but it was never confirmed. I speculate that he may have been his bastard brother but also his lover. His three commanders were his two sister wives and Orys so maybe he was also as close as his sisters and they never confirmed he was a bastard brother because it would be too much for the people of Westeroes.

4. Now this all leads to my next point. One of the biggest questions is what was in the letter Aegon received from Dorme. It must have been powerful to make Aegon stop the war. But why did Dorne not use it sooner? I think Rhaenys survived her dragons death and the martells torturef her for information. As it's only after her dragons deTh the letter is sent. I believe it says they know Aenys is not his son and about the real relationship to Orys. This would explain his anger and thus bleeding and also force him to make peace and get the 41 year old Visenya pregnant somehow so Dorne could not contest that child's parents.

I'm sorry if this and these points have been discussed before and I know many of this points can be given different conclusions but it just seems to fit so well together and answer many if his reigns big questions at the same time.

Would live to hear thoughts??

[The silver dragon]

orys was into girls.

[NGParadox]

Orys maybe was bi some people can be into both.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Might be. It's not about Orys, but the relationship with his sisters is damn weird.

By the way, Aegon was 42 when Visenya had Maegor. She was even older. We lack her actual age though, only knowing that she was his big sister.

Aenys wasn't much better, Rhaenys had to be about 30 as well and the open relationship she and Aegon had was weird, especially for an inheritance-based society.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Some interesting thoughts, OP!

There's a few things off about Aegon and his family affairs, but I'm now sure if they're really explained away if we assume he's gay.

My thoughts:

(1) he married both his sisters, and it's said time and again that he should only have married Vis by tradition but specifically also married Rhaenys out of love/lust. That's not an action of a man who's decidedly not into women.

(2) Aegon was a Valyrian, and it's repeated a couple of times in TWOIAF that the Vals "feared no gods" - which would foster a strong disregard for externally enforced morality standards ("Don't have sex with men because the Seven will damn you to the seven hells" etc). So I would imagine that a Valyrian, particularly a dragonlord, would have sex with a porcupine if it took his/her fancy, and wouldn't care who knew.

(3) you might say that Aegon decided to keep his gayness a secret for the sake of the touchy Westerosi. But, he already showed up with two wives, both of which were his full blood sisters! You can imagine the High Septon would have been like "He is gay, that's unforgi-WHAT??? His SISTERS???"

So I think that, just based on the info we have, it's more likely that it wasn't Aegon's sexual proclivities that were the "problem".

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Aegon may have been sterile, however.

It's said that his sons must have been his because each had one half of Aegon's personality: Aenys was all sweet diplomacy, Maegor was all cruel war-making.

I actually think a more obvious interpretation is that each boy was his mother's son: Rhaenys was a much-loved diplomat (she arranged alliance marriages after the Conquest), while Visenya is a hard warrior. It's almost as if each of Aegon's sons was just an amplified version of his respective mother. Almost like Aegon himself was completely out of the equation. I think this is a hint that Aegon isn't the father, not that his wives "impregnated themselves".

If Aegon realised he couldn't have children, then I would suggest that Aenys could be the son of Rhaenys and Orys Baratheon - not through an illicit love affair, but with Aegon's full consent. The family line needed to be continued at all costs, and Orys was half-Targ himself. Orys was in fact Rhaenys' half-brother as well - this is meticulously never mentioned in the text, he is always only referred to as potentially Aegon's half-brother; almost as if George doesn't want us thinking too much of Rhaenys and Orys as half-siblings.

Why would Aegon agree to this? What's the other option, if he knows he's sterile? Better Orys than someone with no Targ blood.

Then consider what might have been in the Dornish Letter: "We got the story out of Rhaenys. Your only child is actually Orys Baratheon's bastard, and you've known all along. Back off or everyone will know."

At this stage, all of Aegon's hopes were resting on Aenys: his only child. It would make an impact on him.

ETA: not sure who Maegor's father would be, but I reckon that Aegon was on board with that as well. In fact, it may have been Visenya who resisted the idea until her late-30s: her own sense of honour seems to have been very strong (and she is noted as having been meticulously faithful to Aegon). So what might have been a "please and thank you" decision for Rhaenys (have sex with someone else to get a kid which I'll claim as mine), actually took Visenya many more years to come to terms with.

[NGParadox]

Yea I am not completely convinced he is gay but it felt like something that could help explain these odd things and I agree Pepsi that him being sterile is the most likely thing.

Your first point that he is said to be madly faithful though is what I think possibly the impression he gave so people would not suspect his real love an as his sisters they would keep his secret and by marrying both who would question his sexuality.

Rhaeny sleeping with other men seems well known so why would she do this, maybe because Aegon could not provide that love she most wanted and so he spent most nights with her to keep her from others and if she got pregnant he could claim it was his.

Like I said its all mostly speculation. But we all know something weird is going on.

Also in relation to his children being like him, they are still related to him and many people tell me I'm like my uncle.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Yea I am not completely convinced he is gay but it felt like something that could help explain these odd things and I agree Pepsi that him being sterile is the most likely thing.

Your first point that he is said to be madly faithful though is what I think possibly the impression he gave so people would not suspect his real love an as his sisters they would keep his secret and by marrying both who would question his sexuality.

Rhaeny sleeping with other men seems well known so why would she do this, maybe because Aegon could not provide that love she most wanted and so he spent most nights with her to keep her from others and if she got pregnant he could claim it was his.

Like I said its all mostly speculation. But we all know something weird is going on.

Also in relation to his children being like him, they are still related to him and many people tell me I'm like my uncle.

I guess a stumbling block in the "sterility" argument I set out is that Aegon would need to both know and admit that he (and not his sisters) is sterile. Maegor certainly never could admit he was the problem, not his wives.

As for the question of who Aenys and Maegor took after, I was thinking along the lines of all the hints about how Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna (and also Tyrion describing Jon's very Starkish looks only to conclude by saying "whoever his mother was, he doesn't look anything like her"). GRRM's way of actually telling us something crucial in an apparently meaningless detail.

So I guess I got suspicious when I read the detailed descriptions of Rhaenys's and Visenya's personalities, and compared that to how their sons stack up against Aegon. The explanation put forward as the most logical (each had some of his father's personality, but not the rest) ignores the mothers completely - when in fact, Aenys could be said to be like Rhaenys (with the added trauma of losing his mother, and all the drama around the Dragon's Wroth), while Maegor could be said to be like Visenya (with possibly his head injury / magical resurrection tipping him over into insanity).

Again, as a literary device, it could be intended as a hint to Aegon not being the real father of either Aenys or Maegor (while I agree with you that in the real world children can of course be like any extended family member, or none at all).

[Lord Varys]

Lord Pepsi Cupps,

check my report on 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading from last World Con (the unabridged version of the reign of Aenys I and the youth of Aenys and Maegor from 'Fire and Blood'), therein George gives us a rather big hint how Maegor may have been conceived.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-sons-of-the-dragon-reading-at-loncon-today/page-6#entry6134038

In short, the guess is that Visenya used magic to get pregnant with a male child at the age of about 40/41, either to create a male clone of herself, or to make use of Aegon's bad semen. The whole purpose of Visenya's pregnancy was to have 'a spare', as it looked like Aenys would die following Rhaenys' death in Dorne in 10 AC. The Lords were even pushing Aegon to take another wife, as Visenya was supposed to be barren...

Another point for Aenys/Maegor not being Aegon's is the fact that both sons were born late, especially since it seems that Aegon and his sisters had already been married for decades - they married at an unknown date before the Conquest even began, and were already in their late twenties by then. After the Conquest the need for an heir became paramount at once. Aegon would most certainly have tried very desperately with both his sister-wives to conceive a child. Yet it took Rhaenys six years to get pregnant... Aegon's sterility (or the rumor that this was the case) may have actually been an open secret at this time, as Sharra Arryn offered Aegon to marry him if he would name her son Ronnel his heir - this makes a lot of sense if Sharra expected that Aegon would never have a child of his own body...

Orys Baratheon cannot be the father of Aenys, as he was in Dornish captivity by the time of Aenys' conception. If Aegon is not the father of Aenys, I imagine Rhaenys chose a blond sperm-donor for him, possibly a low-born Lysene with Valyrian features.

By the time of the Dornish letter, Maegor was already born. But Aegon clearly wanted Aenys to succeed him, the son of Rhaenys, rather than the son of Visenya's, that much is clear. If the Martells had proof that Aenys was not Aegon's son, this could have been a reason why he accepted the peace (although I'm not sure how this proof would have looked like). But the mere rumor could have caused a lot of trouble for Aegon and his whole dynasty. And we should keep in mind that Visenya either knew or suspected the truth about Aenys' heritage, and this was (part of) the reason she backed Maegor over Aenys - however, this would make more sense, if Maegor was not a clone of Visenya's but rather a son of Aegon and Visenya conceived with the help of magic, as then Visenya would clearly have the high ground on the whole succession issue...

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Lord Pepsi Cupps,

check my report on 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading from last World Con (the unabridged version of the reign of Aenys I and the youth of Aenys and Maegor from 'Fire and Blood'), therein George gives us a rather big hint how Maegor may have been conceived.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-sons-of-the-dragon-reading-at-loncon-today/page-6#entry6134038

In short, the guess is that Visenya used magic to get pregnant with a male child at the age of about 40/41, either to create a male clone of herself, or to make use of Aegon's bad semen. The whole purpose of Visenya's pregnancy was to have 'a spare', as it looked like Aenys would die following Rhaenys' death in Dorne in 10 AC. The Lords were even pushing Aegon to take another wife, as Visenya was supposed to be barren...

Another point for Aenys/Maegor not being Aegon's is the fact that both sons were born late, especially since it seems that Aegon and his sisters had already been married for decades - they married at an unknown date before the Conquest even began, and were already in their late twenties by then. After the Conquest the need for an heir became paramount at once. Aegon would most certainly have tried very desperately with both his sister-wives to conceive a child. Yet it took Rhaenys six years to get pregnant... Aegon's sterility (or the rumor that this was the case) may have actually been an open secret at this time, as Sharra Arryn offered Aegon to marry him if he would name her son Ronnel his heir - this makes a lot of sense if Sharra expected that Aegon would never have a child of his own body...

Orys Baratheon cannot be the father of Aenys, as he was in Dornish captivity by the time of Aenys' conception. If Aegon is not the father of Aenys, I imagine Rhaenys chose a blond sperm-donor for him, possibly a low-born Lysene with Valyrian features.

By the time of the Dornish letter, Maegor was already born. But Aegon clearly wanted Aenys to succeed him, the son of Rhaenys, rather than the son of Visenya's, that much is clear. If the Martells had proof that Aenys was not Aegon's son, this could have been a reason why he accepted the peace (although I'm not sure how this proof would have looked like). But the mere rumor could have caused a lot of trouble for Aegon and his whole dynasty. And we should keep in mind that Visenya either knew or suspected the truth about Aenys' heritage, and this was (part of) the reason she backed Maegor over Aenys - however, this would make more sense, if Maegor was not a clone of Visenya's but rather a son of Aegon and Visenya conceived with the help of magic, as then Visenya would clearly have the high ground on the whole succession issue...

Good work demolishing my wild speculation with some hard cold facts! :p And will check out the report for sure.

The Ronnel Arryn thing is a great pickup, it didn't occur to me at all. While reading, I noted it was a really shit thing to offer to someone ("You're way more powerful than me, buttttt.. how about YOU take MY son as heir?"), but didn't think much of it. It was strange Aegon didn't have kids already, and in hindsight of course it would be noted by everyone and their maiden aunt.

I won't go into other details until I read up on what GRRM said, but I've had thoughts on the Aenys-Maegor succession before, which could fit regardless I think. I have this mad urge to vindicate Visenya (probably because she's clearly be the least favourite sibling by Westerosi standards). I don't actually think Aenys' son was meant to inherit after Aenys; that's your typical Andal rule, which the Targs may have followed, but maybe not (pre-Conquest). Since the Targs were never kings, and their Kingdom was brand new, they could have also settled on any number of different succession alternatives. I thought after Maegor was born, and especially after he was denied Rhaena in marriage, it may have been agreed between Aegon and Visenya that Maegor would inherit from Aenys. ETA: Visenya should have been the "main" wife after all and is herself older than Rhaenys.

In that context, I might also burn for treason the Grand Maester who insisted my brother's son should inherit and not me. Maegor's act seems like a typical thing a tyrant would do as his first act - but he may have just been defending an agreement and his legitimate right.

I do want Visenya to have the moral high ground, and realistically she likely does - otherwise, the Maegor story is so singularly one sided (where him and Vis are just bad, and Aenys's kids are just good). Whether it's based on an inheritance agreement that favoured Maegor, or on the fact that Vis knew Aenys wasn't Aegon's - doesn't matter.

[Annara Snow]

To the OP: Aegon married Rhaenys out of desire and showed clear preference to her (spending ten nights each with her for one with Visenya), so nope.

If there's a sibling in the trio whose sexuality can be speculated about: I've wondered if Visenya was asexual. We don't know enough to be sure, and some other info could contradict it, but there's never any indication of her showing any sexual interest in Aegon other than the duty/dynastic-driven one, and there is no indication of her having romantic/sexual interest in anyone else. Then again, it may have just been something the history never recorded - but it's a possibility.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Ronnel Arryn thing is a great pickup, it didn't occur to me at all. While reading, I noted it was a really shit thing to offer to someone ("You're way more powerful than me, buttttt.. how about YOU take MY son as heir?"), but didn't think much of it. It was strange Aegon didn't have kids already, and in hindsight of course it would be noted by everyone and their maiden aunt.

It's probably the reason for Argilac offering Argella as well: He perceived Aegon to have married his sisters simply to keep anybody outside his House from getting a claim on dragons, without actually having sex with them. Because yuck.

[Lord Varys]

LPC,

well, Visenya was the champion of the House Targaryen, not just the evil stepmother. She saved Aegon's life, founded the Kingsguard, and ruled the Realm aside her brother. We know that she and Aegon did not like to spend time together later in life, but this does not mean that they hated each other. There was probably never true romantic love between them, but they were siblings still, and although siblings quarrel from time to time, they rarely murder each other (but they don't have to be best friends, either). Even in Westeros this seems to be the case. George has made Rhaenyra and Aegon half-siblings, and from what we know fratricide and patricide was rather uncommon among the Targaryens. Out of hand I only remember Visenya (if she poisoned Aenys), Maegor, Aemond/Daemon (through Blood and Cheese), Aegon the Unworthy (if it is true that he murdered his father), and Bloodraven.

Even if we assume Aenys was Aegon's son and the rightful king, one could still argue that she only did what she had to when she poisoned him (if she did that at all), as Aenys had effectively lost everything she and her siblings had accomplished, and was unwilling or incapable of trying to win Westeros back.

And come to think of it: Maegor must not be the son of Aegon for Visenya to think that he should inherit the throne. After all, she was the elder sibling, and if Aegon had had no issue, the throne would have gone first to her and her line, and then to Rhaenys and her line, if we assume for a moment that they would not have been married to each other.

Aegon had his sisters shared the rule, and like Nymeria took over after Mors Martell died, Visenya/Rhaenys would have ruled in their name if Aegon had died prematurely, not their children.

Thus I think Visenya's take on the fact that Aegon did not have a biological child would have been that her son should come before Rhaenys', as she was the eldest sibling. And the fact that she most likely did not consider Aenys worthy or capable of ruling would also have been a huge factor.

But Maegor only ascended because Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena were in not on Dragonstone and besieged at Crakehall Castle when Aenys died. Had they been there, Aegon and Rhaena most likely would have taken over. It is clear that Aenys made Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena his heirs and successors, and nothing suggests that Aegon I intended Maegor to follow Aenys (if that was the case he could have said so). Maegor clearly usurped the rights of Aenys' children, but one could also say that he reconquered/retook Westeros from the Faith Militant/the rebel lords, and thus legitimately became king. After all, the kingship was in the balance during the Trial of the Seven. When Maegor won, he also won the throne and the right to rule.

We really do not know how the Lords Freeholder back in Valyria handed their holdings down through the generations, but I guess that system was not really in effect on Dragonstone, as Aenar apparently had only one holding (Dragonstone), which was passed down to his successors as a whole. It is very likely that dragonlords had vast holdings which were divided among all the children equally (although I guess there was also a head to each family, but most likely not necessarily the eldest son). Valyria was no backwater feudal society like Westeros...

[Euron69]

Aegon was definitely not gay.. He hadn't kept his sexual orientation a secret BC .. I'd have more to say but Lord_Pepsi_Cupps covered all that..

[NGParadox]

To the OP: Aegon married Rhaenys out of desire and showed clear preference to her (spending ten nights each with her for one with Visenya), so nope.

If there's a sibling in the trio whose sexuality can be speculated about: I've wondered if Visenya was asexual. We don't know enough to be sure, and some other info could contradict it, but there's never any indication of her showing any sexual interest in Aegon other than the duty/dynastic-driven one, and there is no indication of her having romantic/sexual interest in anyone else. Then again, it may have just been something the history never recorded - but it's a possibility.

We are only told they say he married Rhaeny because of desire this doesn't mean it's true, he could spend 10 nights with her because he needs to keep her away from those other men she sleeps with so that if she has a baby such as Aenys he can proclaim it's his and not another mans.

I think Rhaeny sleeping habits may tell us she was in unsatisfied in bed with Aegon. But like I stated this is just fun speculation and I think the discussions round these notes is interesting as others have stated.

[Lord Varys]

I actually think that the rumors that Rhaenys entertained lovers when Aegon was with Visenya are just that - rumors. I think Aenys is not Aegon's son, but this does not mean that Rhaenys had many lovers - in fact, I doubt that this was the case. She would have been discreet about that sperm-donor guy, and he may have not lived to tell the tale afterwards...

I rather think those rumors come from the fact that Rhaenys enjoyed the company of handsome mummers, singers, and the like, whereas Visenya did not. The usual misogyny easily kicks in when a woman does not appear to be chaste, or actually enjoying the company of men who are not her husband. Visenya was somewhat different, but I imagine she had actual much more casual contact with men than Rhaenys, as she was a warrior and thus most likely often training with knights and squires in the yard. But they were not necessarily as handsome as Rhaenys' companions.

One should also note that the rumors are not very specific. There were the rumors Rhaenys had lovers, and then later, when Aenys is born, there is the rumor that he was not a son of Aegon because he was such a sickly child. It actually seems very likely that somebody tried to come up with a pro-Aegon explanation as to why Aenys could be this sickly if he was the son of 'the man' Aegon Targaryen.

We should also consider the relative awkwardness of the polygamous incest marriage of the Targaryen marriage. Imagine a conversation among the courtiers in the Aegonfort:

'The king is visiting the queen's bedchamber tonight' 'Ah, and what's the queen going to do when the king is with the queen tonight?'

[Connor Stone]

Hey everyone

This is my first post so go easy on me :P I've been a long time reader of the forums which has always provided me with intrigue or laughter on my commutes to work.

Now on to the theory, there are many questions about Aegon and his reign and when trying to answer them I realised it could all point to Orys Baratheon being his lover......

1. Firstly Aegon is married to his sisters but there are many times he is offered the opportunity to marry another but he always refuses. He never seems interested in any women except his sisters.

2. Even though he loves his two sisters, he surprisingly only ever has 1 child with both and both have questions surrounding them. Some say Aenys may not have been his due to rhaenys many lovers, then after she dies Visenya suddenly becomes pregnant at a very late age (41 if I remember correctly) This is a late age to suddenly get pregnant and I have heard a few state that maybe she use sorcery to impregnate herself, as there are rumours she used sorcery. This could also explain Maeger not being able to have children even though he had many wives. So none of his children may be his.

3. Who Orys is, is still a mystery. In the WOIAF it's states that most believe him to be a bastard brother but it was never confirmed. I speculate that he may have been his bastard brother but also his lover. His three commanders were his two sister wives and Orys so maybe he was also as close as his sisters and they never confirmed he was a bastard brother because it would be too much for the people of Westeroes.

4. Now this all leads to my next point. One of the biggest questions is what was in the letter Aegon received from Dorme. It must have been powerful to make Aegon stop the war. But why did Dorne not use it sooner? I think Rhaenys survived her dragons death and the martells torturef her for information. As it's only after her dragons deTh the letter is sent. I believe it says they know Aenys is not his son and about the real relationship to Orys. This would explain his anger and thus bleeding and also force him to make peace and get the 41 year old Visenya pregnant somehow so Dorne could not contest that child's parents.

I'm sorry if this and these points have been discussed before and I know many of this points can be given different conclusions but it just seems to fit so well together and answer many if his reigns big questions at the same time.

Would live to hear thoughts??

Is this NGParadox from youtube? If so I am s big fan.

[The Dragons Hand]

You don't marry a second of your sisters "Out of lust" when you aren't into ladies.

Aegon was already offending everyone by marrying on of his full-blooded sisters, would he really do it a second time for shits and giggles?

[NGParadox]

Is this NGParadox from youtube? If so I am s big fan.

Hey thanks :) yes I am. Glad you enjoy.

[John Doe]

You convinced me. Okay, maybe not fully convinced, but it's definitely a solid theory and better than what I thought I'd read after reading the thread title.